MR. KUNSTLER: Would you state your name, please?
THE WITNESS: Judy Collins.
MR. KUNSTLER: What is your occupation?
THE WITNESS: I'm a singer. I sing folksongs.
MR. KUNSTLER: Now, Miss Collins, I call your attention to March 17 of 1968 at approximately noontime on that date. Do vou know where vou were?
THE WITNESS: I was at the Americana Hotel in New York City attending a press conference to announce the formation of what we have now come to know of as the Yippie Movement.
MR. KUNSTLER: Who was present at that press conference?
THE WITNESS: There were a number of people who were singers, entertainers. Jerry Rubin was there, Abbie Hoffman was there. Allen Ginsberg was there, and sang a mantra.
MR. KUNSTLER: Now what did you do at that press conference?
THE WITNESS: Well---[sings] "Where have all the flowers---
THE COURT: Just a minute, young lady.
THE WITNESS: [sings] "---where have all the flowers gone?"
DEPUTY MARSHAL JOHN J. GRACIOUS: I'm sorry. The Judge would like to speak to you.
THE COURT: We don't allow anv singing in this Court. I'm sorry.
THE WITNESS: May I recite the words?
MR. KUNSTLER: Well, your Honor, we have had films. I think it is as legitimate as a movie. It is the actual thing she didl, She sang "Where Have All the Flowers Gone." which is a well-known peace song, and she sang it, and the jury is not getting the flavor.
THE COURT: You asked her what she did, and she proceeded to sing.
MR. KUNSTLER: That is what she did, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: That's what I do.
THE COURT: And that has no place in a United States District Court. We are not here to be entertained, sir. We are trying a very important case.
MR. KUNSTLER: This song is not an entertainment, your Honor. This is a song of peace, and what happens to young men and women during wartime.
THE COURT: I forbid her from singing during the trial. I will not permit singing in this Courtroom.
MR. KUNSTLER: Why not, your Honor? What's wrong with singing?
MR. FORAN: May I respond?
This is about the fifth time this has occurred. Each time your Honor has directed Mr. Kunstler that it was improper in the courtroom. It is an old and stale joke in this Courtroom, your Honor.
Now, there is no question that Miss Collins is a fine singer. In my family my six kids and I all agree that she is a fine singer, but that doesn't have a thing to do with this lawsuit nor what my profession is, which is the practice of law in the Federal District Court, your Honor, and I protest Mr. Kunstler constantly failing to advise his witnesses of what proper decorum is, and I object to it on behalf of the Government.
THE COURT: I sustain the objection.
MR. KUNSTLER: What did you say at the press conference?
THE WITNESS: I said a great deal. I said I want to see a celebration of life, not of destruction. I said that my soul and my profession and my life has become part of a movement toward hopefully removing the causes for death, the causes for war, the causes for the prevalence of violence in our society, and in order to make my voice heard, I said that I would indeed come to Chicago and that I would sing.
That is what I do, that's my profession. I said that I was there because life was the force that I wished to make my songs and mv life known for. I said that I would be in Chicago with thousands of people who want to celebrate life, and I said these words, in the context of a song. I said:
"Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing.
Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago.
Where have all the flowers gone? Young girls have picked them, every one.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the young girls gone? Long time passing.
Where have all the Young girls gone? Long time ago.
Where have all the Young girls gone? Gone for husbands, every one.
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Where have all the young men gone? Long time passing.
Where have all the young men gone? Long time ago.
Where have all the young men gone? Gone for soldiers, every one.
When will they ever learn?
Where have all the soldiers gone? Long time passing
Where have all the soldiers gone? Long time ago.
Where have all the soldiers gone? Gone to graveyards, every one.
Oh, when will they ever learn?"
I said that I would give my music and my voice to a situattion in which people could express themselves about life with a permit, of course, from the City of Chicago.
MR. KUNSTLER: Now, I call your attention, Miss Collins, to the last or next to last day of April of 1968, did you have an occasion to see Abbie Hoffman on that day?
THE WITNESS: Yes. We met at my house. Abbie Hoffman said that there was a lot of trouble in Chicago getting the permits. I said that I felt if the Citv of Chicago wanted to provoke violence and wanted to provoke unrest, all they had to do was continue ignoring our requests for grants and also continue the kind of things that had been happening. Daley had just said that he Would shoot to kill, and I told Abbie that I was not encouraged bv that attitude on the part of the City of Chicago and that I felt that thev should further their efforts to get the permits for its to appear.
Abbie Hoffman said that the National Guard was going to be brought in, and I told him at that point that if it was possible, I'd like to arrange to perform and sing also for the National Guard, as they Would be there under duress, and they should hear what we all had to say.
MR. KUNSTLER: Now, I call your attention to the third week in June of 1968. Did you have an occasion to have a conversation with Rennie Davis?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Rennie Davis called me, and asked me if I had any desire to join a group of people who were trying to set up coffee houses which would be hosts to GI's all over the country, He invited me to come to Fort Hood.
I told him that I felt that since the USO provides entertainment of a certain kind to GI's, that I would be very willing to go to an installation, a base, and perform at a coffee house to expose the GI's there to my point of view, to the young people's point of view, and to Our attempts to create a life force, and to also express to the GI's that we're on their side. We don't want them to die. We don't want them to be exposed to the kind of terror that war will perpetrate.
MR. FORAN: I object, your Honor, as to relevancy. There is no relevancy.
MR. KUNSTLER: Your Honor, the lives and deaths of American soldiers I think is highly relevant. It was the whole purpose or one of the main purposes people came to Chicago.
THE COURT: Life and death are really very wonderful. This is a great place to live in and be alive. I agree with you. But those things are not an issue in this case.
MR. KUNSTLER: Miss Collins, I call your attention to approximately one week before the opening of the convention, the week of August 19, 1968. Did you have an occasion to talk to Abbie Hoffman?
THE WITNESS: Yes. In fact, Abbie did call me to ask me again whether I would participate in the Yippie Celebration of Life.
MR. KUNSTLER: Now, would you relate what he said to you and what you said to him?
THE WITNESS: Well. Abbie told me that what was happening in Chicago was that the police were acting antagonistically towards peace demonstrations. He wanted to warn me that I would be subject to that same kind of provocation as an entertainer performing in a public place without a permit.
I told him that I was frightened, now that I had seen things on television that were disturbing to me and upsetting to me. that I had heard Mayor Daley's declaration of war on me personally.
I said, "Abbie, you must continue to try in every way possible to get those permits, because if we're going to have a celebration, we must do it legally. I don't want to be violent. I'm not going to Chicago to do anything except sing for people in a legal situation."
Abbie asked if I was sure that I wouldn't come if they couldn't get permits because they didn't know if they could or not. And I said that it was doubtful, that I would have to think about it, but as far as my wellbeing went and as far as the wellbeing of all the people, that I feel I represent went, that I could not put myself in a position to jeopardize my physical wellbeing or those of thousands of other young people who would be there to celebrate with us.
MR. KUNSTLER: Did you go to Chicago during Convention week?
THE WITNESS: No, I did not. I stayed away from Chicago because the permits were not granted.
MR. KUNSTLER: And anything that was planned, or generated, or that might cause or be a participating factor in violent activity, you wouldn't want anything to do with it, would you?
THE WITNESS: There was nothing violent about anything that went on in the preparations on our side for this Convention. We were provoked.
MR. KUNSTLER: No further questions.
THE COURT: Cross-examination.
* * * * * * * * *
MR. FORAN: Miss Collins, you said in your meeting in April with Mr. Hoffman, didn't you testify that Mr. Hoffman told you that they had been trying to get permits for months in Chicago?
THE WITNESS: Yes, they had been attempting to get permits.
MR. FORAN: This is what he told you.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I knew this was a fact. This wasn't only Abbie Hoffman speaking. This was--
THE COURT: That will be all.
THE WITNESS: That was the consensus that had been going on.
THE COURT: Will you, young lady--
THE WITNESS: There was a refusal to grant it.
THE COURT: Do you hear very well? Do you want to move your hair back?
THE WITNESS: I think so, yes.
THE COURT: I want to ask you, I want to tell you that you have answered the question, you may not go beyond that.
THE WITNESS: Oh, well, I assumed that he wanted to hear more about what statement--
MR. FORAN: Did you know that only one permit had been filed for?
THE WITNESS: I believe that was what I knew then.
MR. FORAN: Did you know that it hadn't been turned down yet?
THE WITNESS: Well it had not been granted. It had been applied for for months.
MR. FORAN: Miss Collins, did Mr. Hoffman tell you that he was planning to tear up Lincoln Park in the city of Chicago?
THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe he ever said that to me. No, I don't think so.
MR. FORAN: I don't think he would tell it to you either.
THE WITNESS: I told him I was going to create an exciting environment with my music, but he didn't say he was going to tear up Grant Park, no.
MR. FORAN: Did Mr. Hoffman tell you that he had come to Chicago prepared to die if necessary to open the city of Chicago up? Did he tell you that?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember that he ever said those exact words.
MR. FORAN: I don't have anything further.