ERNEST KIRKLAND, called as witness for and on behalf of Plaintiff, was sworn and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Would you tell the Court and jury your full name?

A Ernest Kirkland.

Q How old are you?

A Thirty-three.

Q Where do you live?

A Philadelphia, Neshoba County. Ten miles east of Philadelphia on the Longdale Road.

Q Now, Will you speak in a loud and clear voice so everyone can hear you?

A Yes sir.

Q Where do you Work?

A Georgia-Pacific, Louisville, Mississippi.

Q Now---

BY THE COURT:

I didn't hear what you said sitting right here. Speak distinctly, we can hear you all right but I can't understand if you don't speak distinctly.

BY THE WITNESS:

A I said I worked for Georia-Pacific, Louisville, Mississippi.

Q What kind of a job do you have there?

A I'm a press helper.

Q Where do you live in Neshoba County?

A I live out highway 16 on the Longdale Road.

Q About how far off of 16 do you live?

A Two miles.

Q How long have you lived there?

A All my life.

Q Did you know Michael Schwerner?

A Yes.

Q When did you first come to know him?

A I'm not sure of the date. About the middle of April.

Q I would like to hand the witness an exhibit, Your Honor. Can you identify the picture that the Marshal just handed you?

A Mickey.

Q Mickey who?

A Schwerner.

Q I would like to offer that picture and have it marked into evidence . . . .

Q Can you tell me if that's a fair and accurate of Mickey Schwerner?

A Yes sir.

Q How many times idd you see him during the months of April, May and June of 1964?

A About five times.

Q And what were the circumstances of you seeing him?

A Well, the first time I met him was over at Cornelius Steel's house.

Q Could you tell the Court and Jury where Cornelius Steel's house is?

A His house is off the Sandtown Road about two miles of the Sandtown Road.

Q Is it closer or further away from the City of Philadelphia than the Longdale Road?

A It's further.

Q What was the purpose of the meeting you had at Cornelius Steel's house?

A Well the purpose was for voting registration and freedom schools.

Q Was anyone else with him at that time?

A Yes sir.

Q Who was with him?

A James Chaney.

Q I would like to show the witness another exhibit Your Honor.

THE COURT:

Well you have another exhibit there, do you want to offer that one in?

BY MR. DOAR:

I would like to offer it.

BY MR. WEIR:

Object, Your Honor please.

BY THE COURT:

You say this picture is a picture of reasonable likeness that you recognize of a person named what did you call him,. Mickey Schwerner. That sounds like a nickname, do you know what his real name is?

BY THE WITNESS:

No sir, all I know is Mickey.

BY THE COURT:

Mickey?

BY THE WITNESS:

That's all I ever knew.

BY THE COURT:

Where is Mickey Schwerner now?

BY THE WITNESS:

He's dead.

BY THE COURT:

I believe I'll admit that as a reasonable likeness of this fellow, Schwerner, and let it be entered and marked.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Now, the Deputy Marshal has handed you another picture, will you look at that picture and tell me whether or not you can recognize it?

A I can.

Q And who is that a picture of?

A James Chaney.

Q Is that a fair likeness of James Chaney?

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

Your Honor please I object to Counsel leading.

BY THE COURT:

I'll overrule your objection.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q You may answer.

A It is. . . .

Q When was the next time you saw Mickey Schwerner?

A It was in May.

Q And where was that?

A It was at Cornelius Steel's house.

Q And was anyone with him on that day?

A James Chaney.

Q What was the purpose of that meeting, if you know?

A It was for the same purpose, voting registration school.

Q Was anyone else present at the meetings at Cornelius Steel's house except yourself?

A Yes there was.

Q Were there a number of people there?

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

Your Honor, may it please the Court, I object to his leading the witness.

BY THE COURT:

Yes, don't lead him.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Who was at that meeting if you recall?

A Myself, Ernest Kirkland, Frank Kirkland, Melvin Kirkland, Cornelius Steel, Buford Cole and Ruben Green.

Q Now, you are going to have to keep your voice up so everyone can hear you. Will you do that?

BY MR. ALFORD:

Your Honor please, I didn't catch the name of that last party.

BY THE COURT:

Speak into this long thing in front of you there's a microphone in there in front of you. Lean up there and speak through that microphone.

BY THE WITNESS:

Buford Cole and Ruben Greer.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Ruben Greer?

A Right.

Q And what was the race of those people?

A Negro.

Q When was the next time you say Mickey Schwerner?

A About the middle of May?

Q And where was that?

A Frank Kirkland's house.

Q Were there other people present?

A Yes there was.

Q And what was the purpose of that meeting?

A To find a place to hold the freedom school.

Q When did this meeting take place, was it in the daytime or evening?

A It was after dark.

Q About how many people were present?

A About ten.

Q What were their race?

A Negro.

Q And what day of the week was the 31st of May.

A Monday.

Q Where did you see him then?

A Mt. Zion Church.

Q Where is the Mt. Zion Church?

A Its off of 16 on the Longdale Road?

Q Where is it off the Longdale Road from your home?

A It would be north of my home.

Q What time of day did you see him there?

A Four o'clock.

Q Can you describe the circumstance at the Mt. Zion Church, what was going on?

A Speaking on freedom, voting registrations, the purpose of a freedom school.

Q Were there any other persons there beside yourself?

A Yes it was.

Q About how many people were there.

A About fifty or sixty.

Q And what was the race of those people?

A Negro.

Q Was anyone with Mickey Schwerner on that occasion?

A Yes it is.

Q Who was with him?

A Dave Dennis, Jr. and James Chaney.

Q Do you know who Dave Dennis is?

A He's a negro.

Q And do you know for whom he worked?

A He worked for COFO.

Q Do you know what kind of automobile Mickey Schwerner and James Chaney were driving?

A They were driving a blue station wagon, 63 or 64 Ford.

BY THE COURT:

What model?

BY THE WITNESS:

A 1963 Ford.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q When did you next see Michael Schwerner?

A It was in June.

Q What time of day?

A I can't recall the time of day.

Q Was it in the day time or or night time?

A It was in the day time.

Q What date, do you remember that?

A No I can't.

Q Where did you see him then?

A Mt. Zion Church.

Q What was the purpose of that meeting?

A Same thing, voter registration and freedom school.

Q And when did you see him again?

A It was in June.

Q Do you remember the day you saw him?

A No I don't remember.

Q Do you know what day of the week it was?

A No sir.

Q Where did you see him that time?

A My house.

Q What was the purpose of that meeting?

A To find our where we had found a place for the freedom school.

Q Did you see him again after that?

A No, I didn't.

Q On that last time that you saw him, who was with him?

A James Chaney and Andrew Goodman.

Q And do you recognize the picture that the Deputy Marshal has handed you?

A Yes.

Q And who is that a picture of?

A Andrew Goodman.

Q And is that a fair representation of what Andrew Goodman looked like?

A Yes sir. . . .

Q What did you do then, did you go anywhere with Mickey Schwerner?

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

We object to that, Your Honor, he's leading the witness.

BY THE COURT:

Overrule your objection.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Tell the Court and Jury just what you did?

A I went to J.R. Cole, and I went to Cornelius Steel's house and then down to George Lewis.

Q You went to to Cornelius Steel and who else?

A Georgia Rushing.

Q And was what was the third place?

A We went to Mr. Cole's and asked him if he would come to Meridian----

BY MR. ALFORD:

We object Your Honor to what he said and what he asked him.

BY THE COURT:

Overruled.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q You may answer.

A And asked him if he would come to Meridian on Monday to sign an affidavit.

Q Do you know what the affidavit was about?

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

To which I object, Your Honor.

BY THE COURT:

I'll sustain the objection.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q What, if anything, had happened at the Mt. Zion church at that time?

A It had been burned.

Q And do you know the date of the burning?

A It was on the 16th day of June, 1964.

Q And about what time of day was it that you had this visit from Mickey Schwerner and the other two boys?

A It was around 1:00 o'clock.

Q Did they tell you what their purpose was to the Longdale Community that day?

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

Your Honor, if it please the Court, the defendants would object to any questions regarding the purpose, as I understand that does not violate any civil rights because of the attempt to exercise any of their civil rights in violation of the whole section of the United States code that this would not be relevant testimony.

BY THE COURT:

Overruled.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q You may answer.

A I forgot your question.

Q Did Michael Schwerner tell you the purpose for this visit to the Longdale community.

BY MR. PIGFORD:

Your Honor we object on the grounds of hearsay.

BY THE WITNESS:

A Investigating the church burning.

BY THE COURT:

Just a minute witness, let me rule on their objection.
I'll overrule that objection.

Q Now, after you visited the homes of the three persons that you named, what did you do then?

A We went to Mr. Cole's house and he stated he wasn't feeling too well.

BY MR. PIGFORD:

We object to what he said, Your Honor.

BY THE COURT:

Yes, let's stay away from hearsay. That's a pretty close question and answer of this kind, I'll overrule it because I don't think that makes too much difference as to what he said, but let's stay away from hearsay testimony.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q After you left Georgia Rushing's house, where did you go?

A Back to my father's house.

Q About how long did you stay your father's house?

A Thirty minutes.

Q And is your father's house the house that you live in?

A Right.

Q Then, what did the three boys do then?

A They came in the house, had a glass of water, Andrew Goodman was in the house talking to my father, James Chaney was outside talking to my sister.

Q And then what happened?

A They left, I rode up with them up the road to General Wells house and I got out of the station wagon.

Q Where is Mr. Wells' house located?

A It's on the Longdale Road.

Q Is it toward Highway 16?

A Yes sir.

Q South of your house?

A Yes ---

BY MR. BUCKLEY:

Your Honor, if it please the Court, we object to Counsel leading the witness.

BY THE COURT:

Yes, don't lead him, let him testify.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q Cold you, are you able to tell the Court and Jury how the three boys were dressed that day?

A Yes.

Q Would you start with Mickey Schwerner?

A Mickey Schwerner had on a blue denim shirt with khaki pants, with a ball cap with gray suede book-type shoes.

Q And James Chaney?

A James Chaney had on a white T-shirt with green trousers, sleeveless, Andrew Goodman had on---

BY MR. WEIR:

We object, if your Honor please as to how they were dressed.

BY THE COURT:

Overruled.

BY MR. DOAR:

Q And Andrew Goodman?

A Andrew Goodman had on a khaki shirt, blue jeans and brown boots.

Q And do you remember what day of the week this was?

A It was on Sunday.

Q Do you remember seeing the three boys again?

A No, I didn't.

Q Could you tell me how many Sundays it was that you saw the boys that Sunday after the church had burned?

A There hadn't a sunday passed, I believe it was on the 21st of June.

Q Thank you.

Trial Transcript Page


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