Terrirory of Utah,} SS
Beaver County
In the Second Judicial District Court
The People, etc.
Vs.
John D. Lee, Wm. H. Dame, } Indictment for Murder
Issac C. Haight, et al.
September 16th, 1875
Questions to be propounded to Bringham Young on his examination as a witness in the case of John D. Lee and others, on trial at Beaver City, this 30th day of July, 1875, and the answers of Bringham Young to the interrogatives hereto appended, were reduced to writing, and were given after the said Bringham Young had been duly sworn to testify the truth in the above entitled cause, and are as follows:
First- State your age, and the present condition of your health, and whether in its condition you could travel to attend in person, at Beaver, the court now sitting there? If not, state why not.
Answer- To the first interrogatory, he saith:
I am in my seventy-fifth year. It would be a great risk, both to my health and life, for me to travel to Beaver at this present time. I am, and have been for some time, an invalid.
Second- What offices, either ecclesiastical, civil, or military, did you hold in the year 1857?
Answer- I was the Governor of this territory , and ex-officio, Superintendent of Indian Affairs, and the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, during the year 1857.
Third- State the condition of affairs between the Territory of Utah and the Federal Government, in the summer and fall of 1857.
Answer - In Mayor June, 1857, the United States mails for Utah were stopped by the Government, and all communication by mail was cut off, an army of the United States, was en route for Utah, with the ostensible design of destroying the Latter-Day Saints, according to the reports that reached us from the East.
Fourth - Were there any United States judges here during the Summer and Fall of 1857?
Answer - To the best of my recollection there was no United States judge here in the latter part of 1857.
Fifth - State what you know about trains of emigrants passing through the territory to the West, and particularly about a company from Arkansas, en route for California, passing through this city in the summer or fall of 1857?
Answer - As usual, emigrants' trains were passing through our Territory for the West. I heard it rumored that a company from Arkansas, en route to California, had passed through the city.
Sixth - Was this Arkansas company of emigrants ordered away from Salt Lake City by yourself or anyone in authority under you?
Answer - No, not that I know of. I never heard of any such thing, and certainly no such order was given by the acting Governor.
Seventh - Was any counselor instructions given by any person to the citizens of Utah not to sell grain or trade with the emigrant trains passing through Utah at that time? If so, what were those instructions and counsel?
Answer - Yes, counsel and advice were given to the citizens not to sell grain to the emigrants to feed their stock, but to let them have sufficient for themselves if they were out. The simple reason for this was that for several years our crops had been short, and the prospect was at that time that we might have trouble with the United States army, then en route for this place, and we wanted to preserve the grain for food. The citizens of the Territory were counseled not to feed grain to their own stock. No person was ever punished or called in question for furnishing supplies to the emigrants, within my knowledge
Eighth - When did you first hear of the attack and destruction of this Arkansas Company at Mountain Meadows, in September, 1857?
Answer - I did not learn anything of the attack or destruction of the Arkansas Company until some time after it occurred - then only by floating rumor.
Ninth - Did John D. Lee report to you at any time after this massacre what had been done at that massacre, and if so, what did you reply to him in reference thereto?
Answer - Within some two or three months after the massacre he called at my office and had much to say with regard to the Indians, their being stirred up to anger and threatening the settlements of the whites, and then commenced giving an account of the massacre. I told him to stop, as from what I had already heard by rumor, I did not wish my feelings harrowed up with a recital of detail.
Tenth - Did Philip Klingensmith call at your office with John D. Lee at the time Lee made his report, and did you at that time order Smith to turn over the stock to Lee, and order them not to talk about the massacre
Answer - No. He did not call with John D. Lee, and I have no recollection of his ever speaking to me nor I to him concerning the massacre or anything pertaining to the property.
Eleventh - Did you ever give any directions concerning the property taken from the emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, or know anything as to its disposition?
Answer - No, I never gave any directions concerning the property taken from the company of emigrants at the Mountain Meadows Massacre, nor did I know anything of that property or its disposal, and I do not to this day, except from public rumor.
Twelfth - Why did you not, as Governor, institute proceedings forthwith to investigate that massacre, and bring the guilty authors thereof to justice
Answer - Because another Governor had been appointed by the President of the United States, and was then on the way to take my place, and I did not know how soon he might arrive, and because the United States Judges were not in the Territory. Soon after Governor Cummings arrived, I asked him to take Judge Cradlebaugh, who belonged to the Southern District, with him, and I would accompany them with sufficient aid to investigate the matter and bring the offenders to justice
Thirteenth - Did you, about the 10th of September, 1857, receive a communication from Isaac C. Haight, or any other person of Cedar City, concerning a company of emigrants called the Arkansas company?
Answer - I did receive a communication from Isaac C. Haight, or John D. Lee, who was a farmer for the Indians.
Fourteenth - Have you that communication?
Answer - I have not. I have made diligent search for it, but cannot find it.
Fifteenth - Did you answer that communication?
Answer - I did, to Isaac C. Haight, who was then acting president at Cedar City.
Sixteenth - Will you state the substance of your letter to him?
Answer - Yes. It was to let this company of emigrants, and all companies of emigrants, pass through the country unmolested, and to allay the angry feelings of the Indians as much as possible.
(Signed) BRIGHAM YOUNG
Subscribed and sworn to before me on this 30th day of July, A.D. 1875
[L. S.] WM. CLAYTON, notary Public
LABAN MORRILL TESTIMONY, witness for the prosecution
Q: Where do you reside?
A: Iron County, at what is called Fort Johnson.
Q: How long have you lived in the Territory?
A: Since 1852.
Q: Do you know the location of Mountain Meadows?
A: No, sir. I never was there.
Q: Where did you live in 1857?
A: I think I lived at Cedar City.
Q: How far is Cedar City from Beaver?
A: About thirty miles.
Q: Did you, in 1857, know any thing about an emigrant train, known as the Arkansas emigrant train, passing through the Territory to Southern California, or starting to pass?
A: By report only.
Q: Did you have any thing to do as an officer or citizen, at Cedar City, with regard to the passage of those emigrants? If you did, state what you know about their passage, in your own way.
A: Merely by report, that there was a company come through Cedar City. I lived off at a place called Fort Johnson, six miles and a half. I was engaged at that time some little in seeing what was called the best locality, or what would do the best good for some three or four little places, Cedar City, Fort Johnson and Shirts' Creek. We had formed a kind of a custom to come together about once a week, to take into consideration what would be the best good for those three places. I happened on Sunday to come to Cedar City, as I usually came, and there seemed to be a council. We met together about four o'clock, as a general thing, on Sunday evening after service. I went into the council, and saw there was a little excitement in regard to something I did not understand. I went in at a rather late hour. I inquired of the rest what was the matter. They said a company had passed along toward Mountain Meadows. There were many threats given concerning this company.
SPICER - for Defendant - We object to these conversations, in which the witness has not shown that the defendant was present.
HOWARD -for the People - We expect to connect Mr. Lee with it in this way: We propose to show that at that council a report was made that the Indians had stopped this train of emigrants, or were about to stop them; and we propose to show further that at that time, in consequence of the condition of the country, it was claimed by some people that they should be held until a message could be sent to Salt Lake and their passage secured; that Mr. Morrill appeared there - others being in favor of stopping the emigrants, and perhaps doing more than that. Mr. Morrill appeared there and insisted that no interference should be had with them until orders came from Brigham Young - from headquarters _ and at first insisting that they should be allowed to pass unmolested. That the Indians should not be allowed to molest them if it could be avoided. That they should be prevented by all means from interfering with them. Mr. Morrill made several speeches to that council in favor of that proposition, and that finally an agreement was made that the emigrants should not be interfered with, and suspend all proceedings in regard to even stopping them until a message should come from Brigham Young. At that time Brigham Young was not only the President of the Church, but Governor of the Territory, and Indian Agent. We propose to follow it up by showing that an agreement was made and a messenger sent posthaste to Salt Lake. We propose to follow it up by showing that a messenger was sent to see that the Indians did not interfere with the emigrants. We propose to follow it up by showing that John D. Lee received that word. That that was the agreement of that council, and that he must not allow those emigrants to be interfered with. That he not only received that word, but that he made the remark that he had something to say about it. The man who carried the message was told that he had better get out of the way himself, or he would get hurt. There has been an effort made to show that others besides John D. Lee commenced this attack. We propose to show to this jury that the attack was made in defiance of the authorities. That they not only held the lives of those emigrants secure; were not only anxious that they should be allowed to pass, but that they should be protected from the Indians, in order to show their sincerity and do what was right in view of the circumstances, made a solemn agreement there among themselves that the emigrants should not be interfered with until a dispatch could be sent to Governor Young and returned. We propose to show that that dispatch was sent to Governor Young by that messenger, with instructions not to spare horseflesh, but to ride there day and night; that before this messenger returned, John D. Lee, in defiance of that council, massacred the emigrants.
SPICER - If the gentleman proposes to prove that Lee did anything contrary to the orders of the Church Council, we will withdraw our objections. But we know the prosecution will fail in the effort. Lee did nothing that was contrary to Council, and the fact is, he obeyed orders.
HOWARD - Mr. Morrill, the court directs that you state what was done at that Council?
A:. As I said, there appeared to be some confusion in that Council. I inquired in a friendly way what was up. I was told that there was an emigrant train that passed along down to near Mountain Meadows, and that they had made threats in regard to us as a people - said they would destroy every d--d Mormon. There was an army coming on the south and north, and it created some little excitement. I made two or three replies in a kind of debate of measures that were taken into consideration, discussing the object, what method we thought best to take in regard to protecting the lives of the citizens
My objections were not coincided with. At last we touched upon the topic like this: We should still keep quiet, and a dispatch should be sent to Governor Young to know what would be the best course. The vote was unanimous. I considered it so. It seemed to be the understanding that on the coming morning, or next day, there should be a messenger dispatched. I took some pains to inquire and know if it would be sent in the morning. The papers were said to be made out, and Governor Young should be informed, and no hostile course pursued till his return. I returned back to Fort Johnson, feeling that all was well. About eight and forty hours before the messenger returned - business called me to Cedar City, and I learned that the job had been done, that is, the destruction of the emigrants had taken place. I can't give any further evidence on the subject at present.
Q: What was the name of the messenger sent to Salt Lake?
A: James Haslem.
Cross examined by W.W. BISHOP –
Q: You think that about forty-eight hours before the messenger returned from Salt Lake, you learned that the job was done, the people killed at Mountain Meadows. Do you mean by that, the killing that had been talked of at that Council?
A: I suppose it was, sir.
Q: Who was present at that Council that you recollect?
A: Mr. Smith.
Q: Give me the name of any there that you can call to mind?
A: I think Isaac C. Haight was there.
Q: Was John D. Lee present?
A: No, sir, not to my knowledge
Q: Did you see that messenger start to Brigham Young?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you see the message that he took to Brigham Young?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you ever read it?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you know, or have any knowledge that any written communication was given by the Council to anyone to carry to President Young?
A: The understanding of the Council was that one should be written out for him prior to his starting.
Q: Do you know of your own knowledge that one was written out?
A: I didn't see Mr. Haight, but he should have made it out in time. I didn't see the paper
Q: Then the understanding of the Council, as I take it, was this, that different parties presented different plans for having the people follow the emigrants; that after all this argument it was agreed by the parties there that a messenger should go to Brigham Young for instructions as to how the people should treat the emigrants in that train, and nothing should be done with those emigrants until that messenger returned?
A: That was the agreement - I understood it so.
Q: Who else did they agree to send a messenger to?
A: I heard of no other but Governor Young. That was my proposition.
Q: Then you never heard of a messenger being sent to any other place, or to any other party, from that Council?
A: No, I did not pay any attention to any other point, or what was considered; only the one point that a messenger should go to President Young.
Redirect by HOWARD –
Q: Did you understand that a messenger was to be sent down to John D. Lee?
A: I did, but I did not see him start. I understood that at the same time a messenger was to be sent.
Q: What did you understand?
A: I understood that there was to be word sent down towards Pinto Creek.
Q: For what purpose?
A: To have the thing stayed according to contract, to agreement made.
Q: What do you mean by the thing being stayed? Was the massacre of that emigrant train discussed there at all?
A: It was, sir; and some were in favor of it, and some were not.
Q: Who were they?
A: Bishop Smith, I considered, was the hardest man I had to contend with.
Q: Who else spoke about it?
A: Isaac Haight and one or two others. I recollect my companions more than anyone else.
Q: They were very anxious and rabid were they not?
A: They seemed to think it would be best to kill the emigrants. Some of the emigrants swore that they had killed old Joseph Smith; there was quite a little excitement there.
Q: You have given us the names of two who were in favor of killing those emigrants - who were the others?
A: Those were my companions, Isaac C. Haight and Klingensmith. I recollect no others.
Q: You remember that council, and the agreement that they would not do anything until word came back from President Young?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Although you didn't see either of those messengers start, you understood messengers were sent each way
A: Yes, sir; to stay the opposition until that messenger returned.
Re-cross examination –
Q: You say you understood a messenger was to be sent to Pinto Creek. Did John D. Lee live at Pinto Creek?
A: He lived at Harmony.
Q: Was it mentioned in that Council that a messenger was to be sent to Pinto Creek to stay the thing until the other messenger got back?
A: Understand me, there was nothing said in that Council in regard to Pinto, only that the thing should be stayed. They took such measures to stay it as they thought proper. After the messenger, Mr. Haslem, returned I asked Mr. Haight about it, and he said he had sent word to let them pass, of course. That was the end of my experience in regard to it.
HOWARD-
Q: Where did John D. Lee live at that time?
A: He lived at Harmony.
Q: How far is Harmony from Pinto Creek?
A: I don't know.
Q: What was his position at that time?
A: He was a man of some influence among the Indians, and also held a position in the military.
Q: Was he not Indian Farmer?
A: I think he had done something towards it. One thing I passed over at that Council; I inquired by what authority they were doing it, and they said by their own authority. Says I, has Dame got a letter here; is there anything from Mr. Dame of Parowan? They said no. I demanded a written letter or order from him before I would act; they said they had none.
SAMUEL KNIGHT TESTIMONY (witness for the prosecution)
Q: Where do you live?
A: I live at Santa Clara.
Q: How long have you lived there?
A: In the neighborhood of twenty-two years.
Q: Where did you live in '57?
A: I lived at Santa Clara; that was my house. I lived on the Mountain Meadows. I was stopping on the Mountain Meadows that summer.
Q: Will you state how you came up to Mountain Meadows, and how you were situated there?
A: My family was sick at the time, and I moved my family up on account of the hot weather. I was herding stock at the Meadows and milking cows.
Q: Who was with you?
A: Jake Hamblin and myself were proprietors.
Q: Describe that locality to the court and jury?
A: The location in at the north end of what is termed Meadow Valley.
Q: How long is the Meadow Valley?
A: Four miles long, and about one mile wide.
Q: Is it entirely surrounded by mountains and hills?
A: Yes, sir, it is entirely surrounded, except a gap at this end - the gap at which Hamblin's Ranch was situated, and the gap at the other end leads you out on the desert. It has a stream that leads to the Santa Clara stream.
Q: On the first of September, 1857, you say you were stopping there with your wife, who was out of health?
A: A few days before she had been confined, and was lying nearly at the point of death; we were living in a wagon box by the side of Jake Hamblin's board shanty.
Q: Did you about that time go down to your place at Santa Clara?
A: Yes, sir, from Mountain Meadows. I went down a few days previous to this occurrence - this massacre - to see to some business down there - about watering the crop there.
Q: What time did you return?
A: It is not in my memory, the day of the week.
Q: With reference to the general massacre?
A: It was the evening after it had been done in the morning - that is, the first attack.
Q: I mean with reference to the general massacre of the women and children?
A: That was nearly a week, I think.
Q: You are sure about that, are you?
A: I don't exactly remember, but it was several days.
Q: What do you mean by the first attack, and from whom did you get your information?
A: What information I got was from John D. Lee.
Q: State the particulars?
A: As I said before, I was on my way to where I was staying at the time from my home at Santa Clara. From the ranch to Santa Clara settlement was thirty-five miles.
Q: How far below the lower mountain of the Mountain Meadows?
A: About ten miles to where I met John D. Lee. I think he had on a hickory shirt, a straw hat, and homespun pants.
Q: Did you have any conversation?
A: Yes, sir. As I was riding along he hailed me.
Q: Who was with you?
A: I don't know that it is proper for me to state.
Q: Had you up to that time known any thing about the attack on the emigrants?
A: No, sir, I had not.
Q: Did you notice any thing peculiar about John D. Lee at that time?
A: He showed me some bullet holes in his clothing, and may be one or two in his hat.
Q: State the conversation.
A: All the conversation?
Q: You can tell what you recollect.
A: I think he told me that he had made an attack with the Indians, and got repulsed.
Q: When did he say he had made it?
A: I think that morning at daylight, or near daylight.
Q: Do you know whether he told you so or not?
A: I am pretty positive he did.
Q: Did he tell you any thing about any escape that he had had?
A: He said he had run a narrow escape, showing me the holes in his hat and shirt, where he had narrowly escaped being shot.
Q: State all the conversation.
A: He rode along with us up to some eight or ten miles of where his camp was. When I saw him it was getting dusk, and we rode along together as far as the camp.
Q: Was he alone when he met you?
A: Yes, sir, as far as I know.
Q: Did he tell you whether any other white man had been with him in the attack?
A: I am not certain. I got the impression from what he told me that there was not.
Q: Did he tell you from whom he got the bullets through his clothes, or not?
A: I took it, of course.
Q: Did he say he got it on that assault on the emigrants?
A: I can't give the exact language.
Q: What was the substance of what he told you about it?
A: I collected from what he said that he had attacked the camp of these emigrants with the Indians, and that in making the attack he received the shots from the camp, that the bullets had come near to him, one through his shirt and another through his hat.
Q: Did he say anything about having a narrow escape?
A: I think he did.
Q: What camp did he refer to?
A: The camp of the Mountain Meadows emigrants.
Q: You say he came back part of the way to the Mountain Meadows?
A: I don't know but what he went clear across the Meadows, I am not positive. I know he rode back with me. He rode back to where the camp was, at least, but whether he stopped there or not I will not be positive.
Q: Did you see him go towards the Indian camp afterwards?
A: I didn't know where the Indian camp was. It was in the night. He came to me about dusk. It was eight or nine o'clock when we got to where the camp was located. I went right over to my home.
Q: State whether you noticed anything peculiar about Mr. Lee's person, aside from his dress. No, nothing more than what I have stated.
A: State whether he had any paint on him. I didn't notice any. It was between sundown and daylight. It was nearly dusk when I first saw him. We hadn't talked but a few minutes, when it was dark.
Q: long a time passed until the general massacre?
A: Some five or six days.
Q: Did you remain there with your wife during all that time?
A: Yes, sir, with the exception of being out after my stock once or twice.
Q: Had you anything to do with Lee, or see him after that time?
A: He was over at Hamblin's ranch a few times.
Q: What was he there for?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did he come alone?
A: He was there with other men, but how he came I don't know.
Q: Did he at any time come to you to get your teams?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What day was that with reference to the massacre of the men, women and children?
A: It was the day it was done.
Q: What time?
A: I think it was a little before 12 o'clock, the middle of the day.
Q: Who came with him?
A: I think it was Klingensmith.
Q: Where were you, and what were you doing?
A: I was at home waiting upon my sick wife, who was there in the wagon, and doing chores necessary to be done about home.
Q: State the conversation that took place between you and Lee, or you and Klingensmith, in the presence of Lee, about what they came for?
A: They told me they came to get my team and wagon to go over and haul away the sick and wounded from the train, and take them back to the settlements where they could care for them, as wagons were scarce. I didn't consent st first, I told them that I didn't want to go, that my family needed my presence at home. They insisted that I should go and said that duty called me to go. I said if the team went I should go myself with it. My team was a young team and had just been broke a few days, and the horses were fractious.
Q: From that point what was done?
A: Well, I went over. I hitched up my team and went over. Went with a common lumber wagon and box on it.
Q: Did you leave your wife there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you go?
A: I went right on to the Mountain Meadows, right on to the south end of the Mountain Meadows, or near there. I drove up to a camp of Indians and men camped somewhere to the left of the road, probably half a mile, may be not so far, at a little spring to the left of the road, and waited there a little while. I stopped some four or five rods from this camp and stood by my team until I was told to drive down towards the camp.
Q: Who told you?
A: It is not in my memory.
Q: Did you drive down towards the camp?
A: I did.
Q: What camp?
A: The emigrant camp.
Q: Did any other conveyance go down at the same time?
A: Yes, sir, another wagon, I went behind it.
Q: Did you see Lee there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Tell what he did from the first time you saw him that morning on that particular piece of ground?
A: I don't know what he did all the time. While I was waiting at the camp I don't know that I saw him while I was there.
Q: How far was that from the emigrants?
A: I think nearly half a mile.
Q: Did you see anybody go to that emigrant camp?
A: No, sir. I saw a man carrying a white flag.
Q: Who was that man?
A: I could not tell.
Q: Was anybody with him?
A: Yes, sir, I think John D. Lee was with him, or near him, and walked down to the camp.
Q: What occurred there?
A: They walked with this white flag near the camp, and another man met them with a white rag on a stick. He came from the emigrant camp, and they met some distance from the camp, and held a consultation for a few minutes, and then we were told to drive along, or motioned to.
Q: Did any other man besides this man and John D. Lee go?
A: Not any distance. I don't remember that they did.
Q: Who held that consultation?
A: I was not acquainted with them, and was some distance from them, but I think it was John D. Lee, the man that carried the flag, and one or two who came from the emigrant camp.
Q: Who motioned for you to go along after the consultation?
A: I can't tell, but the whole fraternity up there moved along with the wagons.
Q: When you got down to the camp what occurred?
A: My wagon was loaded with some guns, some bedding, and a few individuals.
Q: Who superintended that loading up?
A: John D. Lee.
Q: What guns were loaded into your wagons?
A: The guns from the emigrant camp
Q: When the emigrants came out afterwards, were they armed or not?
A: They were not; not that I saw.
Q: What did they load into your wagon?
A: Guns, bedding, and some clothing of different kinds, and several persons got in. I think three or four got in
Q: What were those persons?
A: As near as I can recollect, there were two men, one woman, and, I think, some children.
Q: State whether those men were wounded then, sick men, or what?
A: I think they were wounded, but I stood holding my team.
Q: State whether it was quite necessary for you to give all your attention to your team?
A: I considered it so.
Q: Then what occurred?
A: After they were loaded in we were told to drive on towards home.
Q: By whom?
A: I can't recollect.
Q: Did you drive along?
A: We did.
Q: Do you know what was put into the other wagon?
A: Mostly people.
Q: Were both those wagons loaded from the emigrant camp?
A: Yes, sir. I started towards my home, north across the Meadows, lengthwise of the Meadows. It led to the north.
Q: After you started, how close did the other wagon follow?
A: I followed it; it went ahead.
Q: What followed you?
A: The men, women and children; coming along after we drove out a little ways.
Q: Did you understand, from what you saw there, that the emigrants vacated that camp and followed you?
A: I did, sir.
Q: As you passed along, did you go with them, or did you go faster?
A: We traveled a little faster.
Q: How far in advance of them did you get?
A: I think we got, may be, a quarter of a mile. It might not have been that far, but quite a little distance
Q: What order did those emigrants march in, whether single file, two abreast, or how?
A: I could not give any testimony on that. I did not look back to see.
Q: Who accompanied you with your wagon, who came along?
A: I remember John D. Lee being along with the wagons
Q: Ahead of the emigrants?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did anything occur after you had got up to the point designated as, perhaps, a quarter of a mile ahead of those emigrants?
A: The first thing that I heard had occurred. I heard a gun fired.
Q: Where was that gun?
A: I don't know the locality exactly. It was behind me.
Q: Was it near you, or down where the emigrants were?
A: It was below.
Q: How far behind you?
A: I should judge nearly a quarter of a mile, the first gun I heard.
Q: What occurred then?
A: I looked around and saw the Indians rising up from behind the brush, and went to butchering these emigrants.
Q: Did you see anything of them?
A: I didn't see anything of the emigrants.
Q: Did you see any of those emigrants in your wagon interfered with?
A: No, sir; not after I heard the first sound of the gun. I leaped from my wagon to see to my team.
Q: Did you see John D. Lee do anything to any of those emigrants?
A: I saw John D. Lee raise something in the act of striking a person - I think it was a woman. I saw that person fall, but my attention was attracted at the same time to my team jumping and lunging.
Q: What became of that woman?
A: I could not say.
Q: Will you state to the jury the manner of that striking?
A: Well, as near as I can recollect it, it was done as though he had a club or gun in his hands, but which of the two I cannot tell. She was falling when I first saw her. When I turned my eyes away she was falling.
Q: You know he struck that woman?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Either with a gun or with a club?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Your team, you say, became very fractious. Is that all you saw John Lee do?
A: That is all I could be positive about.
Q: What was he doing besides that?
A: I could not be positive what he was doing all the time.
Q: State whether all of those people were killed there and then?
A: They were; those in the wagon were all killed.
Q: Was it in your wagon or the one behind you that John D. Lee struck that woman?
A: It was in the one ahead of me.
Q: Was that woman killed?
A: I think she was. They were all killed.
Q: How many cattle had this emigrant train?
A: I don't know, sir. Should judge three or four hundred head.
Q: Do you know who drove these cattle away from that ground?
A: No, sir; I do not.
Q: Do you know whose men drove them off?
A: No, sir; only by report - by rumor.
Q: Did you see Lee drive any of them?
A: No, sir; I did not.
Q: Did you hear him say anything about it?
A: I did not.
Q: Did Lee remain there until all in the wagons were killed?
A: I think he did.
Q: Where did you go then?
A: I drove immediately home.
Q: Which way did Lee go?
A: I don't know - he was on the ground when I left.
Q: Do you know the names of any of those parties who were killed there?
A: No, sir; I do not.
Cross examined –
Q: How many people were present around the wagons when you say you saw Lee strike the woman?
A: I don't know how many.
Q: Were there any others there except Lee and yourself?
A: I have an impression that there were, but I don't know who they were. I have always had an idea that there were one or two more men.
Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that there were?
A: Yes, sir; there was another man that drove the other wagon, but how many more I don't know.
Q: You don't know the names of the men?
A: Not that I recollect of.
Q: Were any Indians around there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Any around the wagons?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see them take any part in the killing?
A: Yes, sir; they took some part in the killing. There were not more than one or two men there, John D. Lee and the men that drove the wagon.
Q: How many Indians?
A: I can't tell.
Q: Isn't it a matter of fact that about that time you wanted to got away from there, and to see as little as possible?
A: I paid just as little attention as I possibly could.
Q: Didn't you make an effort to see as little of it as you could?
A: I did, sir.
Q: That explains why you did not see all of it?
A: Yes, sir, I took all the pains I could to see as little as I could.
Q: Did not the Indians raise a yell, and make a rush for the wagon before you jumped out?
A: Yes, sir, or about that time.
Q: Were they not surrounding the wagons at the time you saw Lee strike?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: There were Indians all around and close to you at the time?
A: Yes, sir, there were Indians a round; quite a number all round there.
Q: Did they rush toward the people in the wagons with hostile intentions
A: Yes, sir, with apparently hostile intentions.
Q: You saw them kill a number of people - didn't they kill that woman?
A: It was my impression that John D. Lee killed her.
Q: Do you know?
A: Yes, sir, I do.
Q: Did you see him do anything else except strike?
A: No, sir.
Q: That much you did see?
A: Yes, sir, I did.
Q: Who was that man with you at the Meadows, the first time you saw John D. Lee, the night after the first attack?
A: I decline to tell.
Redirect -
Q: State where those cattle of the emigrants were at the time of the massacre.
A: They were north a little; up this way.
Q: How soon after that were they driven away?
A: I think next day.
Q: Do you know whose men drove them away?
A: I do not.
Q: Were the emigrants' wagons destroyed there on the ground, or were they taken away?
A: I don't know. They passed along.
Q: Was the field cleared of the emigrant property?
A: Yes, sir, cattle and everything.
Q: Were any wagons burned or destroyed?
A: No, sir, not that I know of.
Q: How long did you stay there after that?
A: Nearly a month.
SAMUEL McMURDY, witness for the prosecution
Q: Where do you live now?
A: I live In Cache County, Paradise.
Q: Did you live in any other place than Paradise in 1857?
A: I lived at Cedar City. I don't recollect dates.
Q: Did you live there at the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: State whether you were called upon to go to Mountain Meadows?
A: I was called upon to go and take my team and wagon.
Q: By whom?
A: I believe it was John M. Higbee that called me.
Q: State from that point the circumstances?
A: I was threshing my grain. I had my grain spread out in the yard, and was tramping it with horses at the time I was called upon. I was notified to leave in two hours' notice. It was sometime in the afternoon that I was called upon.
Q: Of what day?
A: I could not state.
Q: With reference to the date of the general massacre?
A: I think It was a day prior to it.
Q: Was it stated to you for what purpose you were to go there?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you know?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you go?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who went with you?
A: There were a number that went in the wagon with me. Some I can recollect, Klingensmith for one, a man by the name of Hopkins, and two or three more besides that went during the time that I went down, I understood from the men that were in the wagon. I asked them what was the matter. They told me that the emigrants had been attacked, and we had to go down and arrest the attack, if possible. That was the purpose that I expected to go for - was to preserve the emigrants from the Indians.
Q: What time did you get there?
A: It was in the afternoon when we started - late. It must have been way in the night when we got there. I could not tell you the time. We traveled a good many hours in the night. Got there and turned out the horses and camped.
Q: Did you stay until morning?
A: Yes, sir; staid there till morning, and during the next day I got up my horses
Q: Anybody give you orders?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who?
A: John D. Lee. He told me to take the wagon and follow him to camp.
Q: What camp?
A: The camp of the emigrants.
Q: The emigrants that were afterwards killed?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you go?
A: I did.
Q: State what you saw.
A: I went with him to camp, and there was another wagon, if I recollect right. The man that drove the wagon was a stranger to me. I never saw him before. When we got within a short distance of the camp there was a man with a flag of truce sent out.
Q: Who was that man?
A: His name was Mr. Bateman.
Q: Where is he?
A: Dead.
Q: Where was he sent from?
A: Sent from where we stood with the wagons
Q: Who went with him?
A: John D. Lee followed immediately afterwards.
Q: What occurred?
A: A man came out from the camp and had an interview with John D. Lee.
Q: What was the substance of that conversation?
A: I was too far off to tell. I saw Lee and this man talking.
Q: Did you hear any of the talking?
A: Not any that I could distinguish.
Q: After they talked what was done?
A: After they talked they seemed to come to an understanding, ten, fifteen or twenty minutes, then Lee ordered us to drive up the wagons. We drove up the wagons. The emigrants, assisted by Lee, loaded the wagons. My wagon was loaded with some bedding, some truck of different kinds, belonging to the people that got in. Some would have their things with them, as if they were going a journey. A number got in, men, women and children, from the emigrant camp, some of them apparently wounded. I could not say how many, it is so long ago. I never charged my memory with it. I could not state how many there were.
Q: Go on.
A: We were ordered to start out by John D. Lee, and we started out from that place.
Q: State whether the other wagon was loaded also?
A: It was.
Q: Were there any guns put into either wagon?
A: There were not in mine.
Q: Did you at any time leave your team?
A: No, sir.
Q: When John D. Lee directed you to drive, what took place?
A: We proceeded some distance on the Meadows. Mine was the head team
Q: Who accompanied you?
A: John D. Lee was walking behind the wagon, between the two wagons.
By THE COURT –
Q: Were there any persons in those two wagons?
A: Yes, sir. They were loaded up with persons and things.
Q: Were both of those wagons loaded with men, women and children from that camp of emigrants?
A: Yes, sir, and other things besides.
Q: How many got into your wagon?
A: I could not say. It is impossible for me to tell. I should think half a dozen.
Q: What were they - men and women; any children in yours?
A: I think there were some small children.
Q: And as you started on you saw Lee take a position between the two wagons and walk on behind you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How far behind you?
A: I could not tell you. I had as much as I could do to attend to my team. We must have been quite a little distance ahead of the other team. My team was a very fast walking team. Lee checked me up several times. I had to hold on to the lines.
Q: Did he give you any reasons for it?
A: No, sir. I out walked him. We walked very fast.
Q: How many times did he tell you not to walk so fast?
A: Several times.
HOWARD –
Q: What occurred from that point?
A: He called to me to halt after we got out of sight of the camp.
Q: Who did?
A: John D. Lee. When we got out of sight, over the hill, there is where we passed out of sight of everything. There is a rising ground there. We were this side of it, and everything back towards the emigrants was out of sight. When we got to this place Lee ordered me to halt. At that instant I heard the sound of a gun. I turned and looked over my shoulder, and Lee had his gun to his shoulder, and when the gun had exploded I saw, I think it was a woman, fall backwards. I had to tend to my team at the time.
Q: Who discharged that gun?
A: John D. Lee must have discharged it.
Q: Did he hold it in his hand?
A: Yes, sir. He must have hit her in the back of the head. She fell immediately.
Q: Go on.
A: I turned round. It seemed to me like I heard sounds of striking with a heavy instrument, like a gun would make, but I never saw any striking done. But I turned round to the other side a few minutes afterwards, and saw Lee draw his pistol and shoot from two to three in the head of those who were in the wagon
Q: Did he kill them?
A: He must have killed them.
Q: What were these he shot - men, women or children?
A: Men and women.
Q: And they fell off underneath the wagon, then and there?
A: I could not say then and there. They must have been all killed.
Q: Did you go back at all?
A: No, sir.
Q: Never wanted to go back?
A: No, sir - never.
Q: Who fired the first gun - which was the first gun fired?
A: It would be impossible for me to tell. The first gun I heard was the first gun fired right at the back of me that attracted my attention.
Q: You looked around and saw the gun in Lee's hands?
A: Yes, sir; that was the first gun I heard.
Q: Were there immediately volleys of firing?
A: Yes, sir; I heard firing immediately afterwards.
Q: Was that the signal to begin firing?
A: Yes, sir, that was the beginning. How long after Lee told you to halt was that firing?
A: It was instantly done.
Q: And you looked around and saw the gun?
A: Yes, sir.
Cross examined –
Q: You say that you got your orders from Higbee to go down there?
A: I believe it was from Higbee, but I am not sure. I am almost positive it was from him.
Q: Did Higbee go with you?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: Where did you camp that night?
A: On the Meadows.
Q: How many men were there?
A: I could not say.
Q: About how many men were there?
A: I could not give it, because I went in the dark, and had my team to hunt next morning. I turned them out, and it took up all my attention.
Q: Next morning how many men did you see there?
A: I don't recollect anything about it.
Q: You did not see anybody there except yourself, and John D. Lee, and the man that carried the flag, did you?
A: I saw a good many there, but they were strangers to me.
Q: You can't tell about how many were there?
A: I might if I had counted them, and impressed my memory with it.
Q: Do you think there is anything you saw, during the time you were absent from home, but what is burned into your memory, so that it is impossible for you to forget it?
A: Yes, sir, a number of things.
Q: One of the principal things that you cannot recollect is the names of your friends who were there?
A: I don't know that I had any friends there, any more than I have here.
Q: Can you give me the names of any of the men that you saw there that day?
A: Well, sir, I could not really recollect. I suppose not, I might if I was to sit down and think for a while. A little thing like that you would not recollect.
Q: Will you please tell me the names of the parties that were present on the ground, at the time you started to drive down to the emigrant camp?
A: It is impossible for me to do it.
Q: How many men were in sight at the time you started to drive down of your friends, parties from Cedar City or elsewhere?
A: Well, sir, I could not say. I don't recollect seeing any of them. I was too much absorbed in my team and in my own surroundings.
Q: What caused you to be so much absorbed?
A: Any man that has a team to attend to under circumstances of firing of guns -
Q: Were any guns firing then?
A: Not then.
Q: You did not got roused up until after they had loaded your wagon. Had anything happened to excite you previous to the loading up of your wagon at the emigrant camp?
A: I am not aware of anything particularly.
Q: You didn't know at that time that anyone was to be killed?
A: No, sir.
Q: You had not even heard that anyone was to be killed?
A: No, sir.
Q: You thought you were on an errand of mercy?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You thought you had gone there in good faith to help those emigrants back to Cedar City?
A: Yes, sir, that was my understanding.
Q: You had driven down across the valley to the emigrant camp, and the only men you saw during that entire time were John D. Lee and this man that carried the flag?
A: I saw a lot of emigrants around there.
Q: I am speaking now of the people who lived in that vicinity?
A: Outside of the men that lived at Cedar City, they were strangers to me, and I could not tell who they were.
Q: You saw them the night before?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Didn't you see them on the ground before you started to drive down to the emigrant camp?
A: I could not say that I did. I don't recollect of seeing any quantity of men where I was, at all
Q: You didn't see any Indians that morning?
A: No, sir.
Q: No Indians at the time of the killing?
A: I could not say about that. I believe there were Indians around.
Q: Well, do you know?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: You do not recollect to have seen any Indians?
A: Yes, sir, I saw Indians around there, but at the precise moment of time I could not say.
Q: Did you see more than one or two Indians?
A: I saw a great many Indians there after the firing commenced.
Q: Where did those Indians come from?
A: I don't know.
Q: What were they doing?
A: I could not tell.
Q: Did you see them commit any acts of hostility?
A: I don't recollect. I don't doubt but they did, but I can't recollect of their doing anything of the kind.
Q: You pretend to say now that at the time the gun was fired, and from that time on, your excitement and fear were so great that you can't recollect all that did happen?
A: Yes, sir, that's about true.
Q: How far did you haul those people after they were killed?
A: Left them right there.
Q: Who took them out?
A: John D. Lee.
Q: Don't you think he killed a dozen?
A: I could not tell.
Q: Give us your best impression?
A: My impression is that there might be half a dozen.
Q: You did not help kill anyone - did you kill anyone there?
A: I had nothing to do with it at all.
Q: Then you did not raise your hand against anyone at that time, or do any of the killing of the emigrants?
A: I believe I am not upon trial, sir.
Q: I ask if you refuse to answer the question?
A: No answer.
Q: Did you upon that occasion, on the day when the Mountain, Meadows Massacre took place, kill any person upon that ground or assist in the killing of any person?
A: I don't wish to answer.
Q: You say every person that was in the wagons was killed?
A: To my best recollection and knowledge.
Q: Don't you know, as a matter of fact, that there were some seventeen children in those wagons that were not killed?
A: I don't recollect the number
Q: Don't you know there were a number of children that were not killed?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Explain what you mean?
A: I mean all of the grown persons were killed, the children were saved, sir. I believe I assisted to haul them away, to take them off.
Redirect –
Q: How many children were saved from the massacre?
A: I have no recollection.
Q: Where did you take them to - those that you had?
A: They were distributed around; one went to one house, and another to another.
Sworn for the prosecution.
Q: Where did you live in l857?
A: I lived at a place called Fort Johnson, Iron County.
Q: What was your business?
A: I was living with my father - farmer.
Q: Were you an Indian interpreter?
A: Yes, sir; I could talk some with the Indians at that time.
Q: Were you at the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How old were you at that time?
A: I was in my nineteenth year.
Q: Did you kill anybody, or help to kill anybody there?
A: No, sir, I did not.
Q: Tell this court and jury all you know about that?
A: I was called on Thursday of the week they were killed. They were killed the next day.
Q: Where were you?
A: I was on my father's farm, finishing up my harvesting.
Q: What occurred?
A: There was a young man by the name of Clewes - his name has been mentioned here. I am not certain about its being Clewes, it may have been young Klingensmith, came down with a note from Isaac C. Haight, that I was wanted in Cedar City. I went to Cedar City, and he told me some men were going out to the Mountain Meadows and that I must accompany them, and I did so.
Q: What did he tell you they were going there for?
A: He didn't tell me. I understood they were going out to bring in the dead, slain by the Indians.
Q: Would you have gone if you had had any other understanding?
A: No, not if I could have helped it.
Q: Did you go there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What time did you get there?
A: I should judge between twelve and one o'clock in the night. I got to Hamblin's ranch at that time.
Q: Who did you see there?
A: I saw John D. Lee and Klingensmith, and a man by the name of Western. I did not see those men until morning.
Q: Was Hamblin at home?
A: No, sir; he was not.
Q: Did you learn that he had gone any where?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you have any conversation with Lee about his having been in a fight with the emigrants?
A: No, sir; I didn't have any conversation with him in relation to it.
Q: Did you hear him say anything about it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did you hear him say?
A: In speaking to the Indians, he referred to having been in a fight with the emigrants.
Q: What did he say?
A: He said that the Indians and himself had made an attack on the emigrants and been repulsed.
Q: What else did he say? Did he say anything about running any narrow risks?
A: No, sir; he did not.
Q: Did he show any place where his clothing was shot?
A: There was a bullet hole which I noticed in his shirt, which the Indians told me was received down at the camp in that attack.
Q: Anything about his hat?
A: I didn't notice anything about his hat.
Q: Did you notice anything about paint on him?
A: After mature reflection, I don't think I did; I have the impression that I noticed something of that kind around his hair.
Q: Did he say when the attack was made?
A: He told me (those were a few Indians he was telling) there were three Indians there that had been wounded, and I was conversing with them after I got in, in the night.
Q: Were you acquainted with the Indians - the Pah Vant Indians?
A: Yes, sir; somewhat acquainted.
Q: Were you acquainted with the Indians below?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What was Lee's position at that time with the Indians?
A: Well, he used to farm for them, help them to farm.
Q: What was his influence over them?
A: His influence was good.
Q: Were any of the Pah Vent Indians down there?
A: I didn't see any.
Q: You are now at Hamblin's ranch, Friday morning. State what took place that day on the ground.
A: I got on my horse in the morning.
Q: Why did you do it?
A: John D. Lee told me to, and Klingensmith told me to go with them down to the camp. The main Indian camp was down below the emigrant train, and I got on my horse and rode down with them in the morning. There were some men camped down on the meadows, down near the Indian camp. There a few men there, and a few arrived while I was there. They were talking around. I didn't know what was said. A man went out near to the emigrant camp, and there was a white flag - a flag of truce on a stick sent down to the emigrant camp.
Q: Who sent it down?
A: It was John D. Lee had the management of the concern, if I understand it right - well, I will say that he did.
Q: Follow that flag of truce, what occurred?
A: It went down to the emigrant camp, and two men came out and met it and returned back again, and John D. Lee and another man went down to meet with the two that came out of the camp.
Q: Did they talk?
A: They spoke there a while, I could not hear what was said.
Q: Did they appear to be in conversation?
A: Yes, sir; and finally they returned, and some wagons were sent for to go down to the camp and take out some clothing and guns, and some few wounded.
Q: Who directed those wagons to go?
A: Well, sir, it was Klingensmith or John D. Lee, they seemed to be engineering the thing.
Q: Did John D. Lee go down to the emigrant camp?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many people were loaded into those wagons, and who were those people?
A: I can't tell you. Just as they went down I was where the men were. I had ridden down and tied my horse to a root on the hill; he got loose and I went for him, as the wagons went down to the emigrant camp, just as the wagons started away from the camp.
Q: How many wagons started from the camp?
A: Two.
Q: What position did you occupy?
A: I had not got back with my horse.
Q: Were you on the hill - on a prominence?
A: I was not over 800 yards from the people, where the people were passing along; the emigrants following the wagons.
Q: How many wagons?
A: Two.
Q: Were these people in those wagons?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see Lee there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What position did he occupy when you saw him?
A: Following between the wagons.
Q: Which way were they going?
A: North, towards Hamblin's ranch.
Q: Did you see the emigrants following the wagons out of their camp.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Were they armed or unarmed?
A: Not armed.
Q: How far behind the wagons?
A: The women and children along with the wagons, the men a little behind.
Q: Do you mean along in the trail behind the wagons?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And the men behind all?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many of them?
A: I should judge about twenty-five or thirty men.
Q: How many women?
A: Probably there were not so many women as men.
Q: You don't pretend to give the number?
A: No, sir.
Q: How far from the wagons at the head of the column were the people that were walking?
A: The wagons got a good deal ahead.
Q: Were the people marching in double or single file?
A: I could not tell you. The women and children were following along promiscuously, and some of the men.
Q: Were you where you could see the wagons plain and see Lee?
A: Yes, SIr.
Q: Were you armed?
A: I had a pistol.
Q: Did you shoot it off at all?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you have anything to do, in any way, shape or manner with that massacre?
A: No, sir.
Q: Will you tell the jury what you saw done at those wagons, and the order in which you saw it?
A: When the wagons got up a piece ahead of the men I heard a gun fired.
Q: Where was it?
A: I think it was behind. I am not sure it was behind the wagons. I turned round to look, and at that the Indians and whites made a rush, and there was a general firing.
Q: Where was that gun fired off?
A: I think the gun fired was some distance behind the wagons.
Q: What took place then?
A: The people were killed.
Q: Did you see any of them killed?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see John D. Lee kill any of them?
A. I saw him fire off, and saw a woman fall as I looked down to the wagons.
Q: What wagon was it?
A: I am not certain. I think it was the lead wagon.
Q: Tell what occurred?
A: I saw his gun fired, heard the report of the gun and saw it fired, and saw a person fall, and the gun was held in his hand
Q: Did it kill her?
A: I didn't go to see. The Indians rushed.
Q: What did you see him do next?
A: I looked down below to the men that were below, and then when I looked back again -
Q: Was the massacre going on then down lower?
A: Yes, sir, Indians and all along the line. I saw John D. Lee and some Indians pulling some persons out of the wagons.
Q: What did you see him do to anybody else?
A: I can't swear, but from the motions I should say he cut a man's throat.
Q: Tell how he did it?
A: I can't tell you, only I saw his arms moving around pulling men out of the wagons. They went to the left of him. I was not near enough to see, but he seemed to hold on to him.
Q: Who pulled him out of the wagon?
A: John D. Lee and an Indian.
Q: Did you see John D. Lee make any motions?
A: I did.
Q: What were they?
A: I thought at the time that he was cutting a man's throat, but then I was so far off.
Q: You were in plain sight?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Have you any doubt that to what he did there?
A: No, sir.
Q: What else did you see him do?
A: I didn't see him do anything else at the time.
Q: At any other time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you see him do anything else towards killing those people?
A: No, sir.
Q: How long a time did it occupy, that massacre?
A: Not over five minutes - not over three minutes.
Q: How many people were killed, do you know?
A: No, sir, I don't.
Q: Did you have any conversation with John D. Lee after that about it?
A: I have had at different times, but I don't know that I can recollect the conversation that passed.
Q: Did you ever have a conversation with him in which he told you the particulars of the first attack?
A: He told me once something in relation to it, but it is so long ago. It was only that he attacked them; that the attack was made just as daylight was appearing in the morning. He said he went with the Indians to make the attack.
Q: Did he give you any reasons for making the attack?
A: No, sir.
Q: How many cattle were there belonging to that train?
A: That I cannot tell. There was quite a number - quite a lot of stock.
Q: How many wagons did those emigrants have?
A: Thirteen I counted.
Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?
A: Taken to Iron Springs.
Q: Who took them around there?
A: I don't know who took them there- some men took them there.
Q: Do you know of Lee having and using any of the wagons afterwards?
A: I saw some of the wagons at Harmony several weeks afterwards.
Q: What did you say became of the cattle?
A: Taken to Iron Springs.
Q: By whom?
A: I understood by John D. Lee's orders.
Q: Do you know what was done with the cattle?
A: I saw some of the cattle afterwards on the Harmony range close to Lee's residence.
Q: There under his charge?
A: I suppose so. I am not definite about that.
Q: Do you know whether any of them were killed by Lee?
A: No, sir. Never saw him kill any of them; he told me once that he had given the Indians several beeves, and the Indians told me he had.
Q: How long had you been acquainted with the Indians in Southern Utah at the time of the massacre?
A: I had been somewhat acquainted with them for five years. I came to Iron County in the Spring of '51 and resided there until '57.
Q: Were your relations with the Indians intimate?
A: With some portions of them they were.
Q: Do you know at that date, the time of this massacre, what the relations were existing between the people of Southern Utah and the Indians; whether they were hostile or whether they were friendly?
A: They were friendly.
Q: State whether they were in good subjection or not?
Bishop objected to the introduction of this testimony by this witness.
First, because the proper foundation had not been laid to show that this witness knew how far the Indians had been placed under subjection. Second, because the prosecution had introduced written evidence, documents written by Brigham Young and John D. Lee, to show the exact condition of the Indians at that time, and before that. Third, they seek to prove that the Indians were friendly to the people of Utah; that is irrelevant and immaterial here, from this fact, that there is no question now before the court or jury as to whether the Indians of Utah were friendly with the citizens of Utah or not. It is not claimed by either the prosecution or the defense, that the Indians had made any attack at that time, or that they afterwards made any attack on the citizens of Utah. The only question on trial is as to the fate of certain people, nonresidents of Utah, and the fact as to whether this defendant was connected with their taking off or not.
After argument the question was withdrawn.
Q: What was the influence of John D. Lee over the Indians of Southern Utah, those that were there present at, the massacre?
Objected to until it is shown that this party knows what that influence was.
Question withdrawn.
Q: Do you know the relations existing between John D. Lee and those Indians?
A: The relations between John D. Lee and those Indians, a small portion of Indians that roved around in there, were good; but the Indians further south, I don't know. The Indians of Santa Clara, and further on, I did not know.
Q: Had you any information, before you went there, from John D. Lee's Indians, that he had control of, that he had promised to go there?
A: I had information from Indians that went there.
Q: How long was that before you went?
A: It was on Monday evening, before the massacre on Friday.
Q: What was that information?
Objected to. Question withdrawn.
Cross examined –
Q: How old were you at the time of the massacre?
A: I was in my twentieth year.
Q: Where were you at the time Mr. Haight ordered you to go the Mountain Meadows?
A: I was at Cedar City.
Q: What time in the day was that?
A: It was some time in the afternoon of Thursday.
Q: The day before the massacre?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many men went with you to Cedar City?
A: Two went with me to Cedar City.
Q: Who were they?
A: Klingensmith's son, and I can't recollect who the other was, came down to tell me I was wanted there. A man by the name of Charles Hopkins, and Charles Western, went with me to the Meadows. I went on horseback, and John Western went with the wagons. There were no others went at that time. There were others before, I understood.
Q: How many did you find there when you got there, citizens of Cedar City and the surrounding country?
A: I can't tell you the number.
Q: How many, ten, fifteen or twenty?
A: I should judge ten or fifteen.
Q: Is it not a fact that there were more than twenty five or thirty men, white men - there, that you saw on the ground?
A: There might have been.
Q: Wasn't there that number?
A: I could not tell you.
Q: Why can't you tell me?
A: Because I didn't count them. I was not there long enough to ascertain the number of men that were there.
Q: Where did you go that night when you went on the ground?
A: I went to Hamblin's ranch. Got there about twelve or one o'clock - not far from midnight - and lay down there till morning.
Q: What time did you get to the Meadows next morning?
A: It was some time in the forepart of the day.
Q: Did you go to the camp where the citizens were located?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: About how many men did you find there?
A: There were some in two places. I found some eight or ten at the place I went.
Q: Did you go to the other place?
A: I didn't go there.
Q: Then how do you know men were there?
A: I saw them. How far off? Some were in sight.
Q: Were they within half a mile of you?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Were there any Indians on the Meadows after you got there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where were the Indians with reference to the white men?
A: The Indians camped some distance from the whites.
Q: Were the Indians out of their camp and up at that of the whites?
A: Several came up while I was there.
Q: Then after they came up to see you they staid up there around where the white men were?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What men were at the camp where you stopped?
A: Well, sir, I didn't stop at the camp. I stayed there a few minutes and talked to Mr. Bateman.
Q: Who did you see there?
A: Mr. Bateman, Charles Hopkins and Klingensmith, where I was talking.
Q: Where is Bateman?
A: Dead.
Q: Where is Hopkins?
A: I understand he is dead.
Q: Do you refer to the same Klingensmith that was a witness at the last trial?
A: He was the man that was Bishop at Cedar City.
Q: Where is Western?
A: I can't tell you. I don't know whether he is dead or alive.
Q: Did you see Isaac C. Haight?
A: Not when I first went to the camp.
Q: You saw him around at the Meadows?
A: Yes, sir, I saw him at the Meadows.
Q: Did you see a man by the name of Stewart?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: Did you see Higbee?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Wilden?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: Did you see old man Young?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many others did you see?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: You stayed there a few minutes and then went to get your horse; where was it you heard the conversation between John D. Lee and the Indians?
A: It was at the camp at Hamblin's ranch.
Q: Give that entire conversation that passed between John D. Lee and the Indians?
A: I can't.
Q: Start in and give from the first to the last of it as well as you can?
A: I don't know as I can, sir.
Q: What language did John D. Lee talk in to the Indians?
A: He had an Indian boy as interpreter.
Q: Who was that Indian interpreter?
A: It was the Indian boy called Alma, I think, that he would talk with and then have the Indian interpret it to the Indians.
Q: Then he talked English and the boy interpreted to the Indians?
A: I suppose so.
Q: You understood both languages. Do you remember whether the Indian interpreted and told the Indian what Lee said, or not?
A: I didn't hear him tell the boy anything about the attack.
Q: Didn't you testify that you had a talk with Lee, and that you heard him talk with the Indians, and say that he had attacked the emigrants?
A: No, sir, I said the Indians told me so. Yes, sir; I did. Lee was talking when I went to the camp, and he did say so.
Q: Tell me whether he talked English or Indian?
A: He talked English to me and told me so.
Q: Give me that conversation?
A: He told me they attacked the camp on Monday night, and been repulsed.
Q: What else?
A: I can't be expected to remember all the conversation twenty years ago.
Q: I want all that you do know. Do you know any more about it? Can you recollect anything more that he said?
A: Nothing that I recollect.
Q: Did he give you any reason for attacking the emigrants?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you find any fault with him for attacking them? Was anything said about whether it was right or wrong?
A: No, sir; I was a boy; I didn't consider it my business to talk to my superior officers in regard to such things.
Q: How was that about Lee being your superior officer?
A: I say I was a boy and didn't consider I had a right to talk to a man in his position in such matters.
Q: Did he have any control over you?
A: No.
Q: What right had he to control your actions?
No answer.
Q: What position did he hold that gave him the right to direct your movements?
A: I was sent there.
Q: You have spoken of his being your superior officer. Tell me what position John D. Lee held that enabled him to control your actions?
A: They called him Major Lee, and I was sent by Major Haight to go to the Mountain Meadows, to Major Lee.
Q: That is the reason you considered that you had nothing to do with it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did Haight tell you what you were to do there?
A: No, sir.
Q: He simply told you to go to the Mountain Meadows?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What do you mean by your evidence, when you were asked by Mr. Howard a question, and you answered that you would not have gone to the Meadows if you had known what was to be done?
A: That is, not if I could help it.
Q: State whether you were under any compulsion?
A: I didn't consider it was safe for me to object.
Q: Explain what you mean, that is what I want. Where was the danger who was the danger to come from if you objected - from Haight or those around him - from the Indians, or from the emigrants?
A: From the military officers.
Q: Where?
A: At Cedar City.
Q: Was Haight one of those military officers?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who was the highest military officer in Cedar City at that time?
A: I think it was Isaac C. Haight.
Q: You thought it would not be safe for you to refuse, had you any reasons to fear danger - had any persons ever been injured for not obeying, or anything of that kind?
A: I don't want to answer.
Q: It is necessary to the safety of the man I am defending, and I therefore insist upon an answer. Had any person ever been injured for not obeying?
A: Yes, sir; they had.
Q: And from what you had seen before that, you thought it was your duty, under the circumstances, to obey counsel, or commands given you by Haight?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did Haight hold any office except that of Major in the military?
A: He held the office of President of Cedar City.
Q: An ecclesiastical office - President of that Stake of Zion, I believe you call it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Tell me how old Haight was then?
A: I can't.
Q: A man full grown, I presume?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: After you had caught your horse, how far were you from the wagons at the time you heard the first firing?
A: Well, I was not over 300 yards, and perhaps not more than 250.
Q: What was the nature of the ground?
A: I was on higher ground; if you have ever been to the Mountain Meadows, it gradually descends down from the mountains to the meadows.
Q: You were on the upland - above the wagons?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Between you and those parties were there any trees or shrubbery, or anything of that kind?
A: There were some to my left - kind of behind me.
Q: You were at the left of the column?
A: To the right of the column.
Q: Then to your left, in between you and the wagons, there was nothing to obstruct your vision whatever?
A: Not between me and the wagons.
Q: At that time could you see down to the meadows to where the principal part of the emigrants were killed?
A: I could see the head of the column of the emigrants. The lower part of the column was hid by this oak bush that is there.
Q: Did you see any Indians there at the time you heard this first shot, or soon afterwards?
A: Yes, sir, soon afterwards.
Q: You stopped your horse at the time you heard the first shot and paid particular attention to what was going on?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You continued there inactive until the whole thing was over?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You say you saw John D. Lee there. Did you not see Samuel McMurdy, one of the drivers, there also?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What did he do?
A: He was holding his horses all the time. I did not see him let go of them.
Q: Do you know whether he took part in the killing, or not?
A: No, sir, I don't. I can't say.
Q: What was Sam Knight doing?
A: Sam Knight, when I looked around, was out on the ground holding his horses.
Q: How long did they stand there and hold their horses?
A: Not long. The killing did not last over five minutes.
Q: What did they do when they let go of their horses?
A: I saw the wagons going off. There was another white man there along with the Indians, but who he was I do not know. I can't tell. I never inquired to find out.
Q: It was none of your business?
A: No, sir.
Q: And you just let the matter pass? But you did see John D. Lee killing emigrants, but you don't know who else killed any?
A: No, sir.
Q: You have not tried to find out since, have you?
A: No, sir, I have not.
Q: You have talked this over a great many times since, and heard it talked over, I suppose?
A: No, sir, but very little.
Q: You have had people ask you about the facts and circumstances frequently?
A: Yes, sir, but it is something that I have avoided.
Q: Is this the first time, since you arrived in Beaver City, that you have talked this thing all over, except when talking to the attorneys for prosecution?
No answer.
Q: From your silence I see you wish to avoid talking to me, too. You have never talked this over to anyone?
A: No, sir.
Q: Until you came to Beaver?
A: I might have done so. I can't recollect.
Q: How many of the military did you see drawn up in line there on the field of the Mountain Meadows, about the time the wagons drove off?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Quite a number, were there not?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who was commanding that military body drawn up in line there?
A: I can't tell which it was, Klingensmith or John M. Higbee.
Q: They were both there?
A: Yes, sir, I think so.
Q: Is it not the fact that these men were drawn up in military line - standing there with arms in their hands - within two hundred yards of the emigrant camp?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Did you see them march in?
A: I saw them marching, as I told you; when I got my horse and turned back I saw them marching.
Q: I understood you to say that it was the emigrants that you saw marching after the wagons. Did you see the militia from Cedar City marching too, at the same time?
A: There were men coming all along all together. I can't tell you whether they were militia or emigrants. All were marching along together.
Q: About what time did the emigrants come out of the camp?
A: It was some time in the afternoon, I think.
Q: How long had you been there at the Mountain Meadows, before the massacre took place?
A: Well, I went from Hamblin's ranch in the morning; I hadn't been there a great while.
JOHNSON –
Q: Where were you born?
A: I was born in the State of Ohio. How old were you when you arrived in Utah? I was some twelve
years of age.
Q: Came I suppose with your parents, to Utah Territory?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Resided In Utah ever since?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Reside now at Johnson's Fort, the same place you did at that time?
A: No, sir.
Q: Where do you live now? Shall I answer that question?
A: Yes, sir, I live at Kanab.
Q: How long have you lived there?
A: About four months.
Q: Where had you been living before that, since you lived at Fort Johnson? After the massacre how long did you live at Fort Johnson?
A: I moved into the Rio Virgin in the fall of '58.
Q: How long did you remain there?
A: Well, I can count up in a minute - I lived there ten or twelve years.
Q: Then where did you move to?
A: I moved to the Sevier.
Q: And from there to Kanab, where you live now?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You say you saw a lot of the wagons at Harmony afterward?
A: I will not swear to but one.
Q: Did you ever see any of the wagons at any other place - did you not see some of them at Cedar City?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where were they in Cedar City?
A: They were at Klingensmith's.
Q: How many did you see?
A: Two.
Q: What position did Klingensmith occupy at that time?
A: He was Bishop of Cedar City Ward.
Q: You spoke of seeing some cattle on the Harmony range. Did you ever see any of those cattle on any other range?
A: They were running about Harmony and Kanab.
Q: Who had possession or control of them?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Do you know how they were branded after that?
A: No, sir.
Q: How did you recognize them?
A: I recognized them by the brand that was on them of "S."
Q: Did you notice that they were branded with a "B" the first time you saw them?
A: Yes, and they were a different kind of stock; they were Texas cattle, a good many of them Texas cattle with long broad horns. There were none in the country that I ever saw until I saw those.
Q: Go on again and tell us just exactly what you saw John D. Lee do; tell me all that you saw him do. I want you to make it just as full and bad as you can.
A: I have told you what I saw.
Q: Tell it to me again.
A: I told you that I saw him fire a gun, and saw a person fall.
Q: Go on and give it all just as you saw it; the whole thing.
A: And then after that I saw him and the Indians pulling people out of the wagons.
Q: What else?
A: That is what I told you before.
Q: I cannot help that, I am now asking you to tell what you know.
A: That is what I did see.
Q: Is that all you saw?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You know the parties had their throats cut, I suppose?
A: No, sir.
Q: You went down and looked at the bodies afterwards?
A: No, sir, I did not; I did not want to.
Q: Then it is only a supposition, that the parties' throats were cut?
A: That is all.
Q: Did you ever go back to see if those persons were dead or not?
A: No, sir, I did not; I saw them lying there after the wagons had driven away.
Q: Do you know whether they were dead or not, of your own knowledge?
A: No, sir, I do not. I saw persons lying on the ground dead, back below where the troops were.
Q: How far from you?
A: I went to them.
Q: Then you did go back? Were they men that Lee killed, or were they men, killed by Klingensmith's men, where he and Higbee were? T
A: They were down where Klingensmith and Higbee were.
Q: Then you did go down to that place?
A: Yes, sir; John D. Lee sent me down to the wagons, that were down below, to keep the Indians from taking the things out of the wagons.
Q: How did he get you there?
A: He told me to go, and I went.
Q: Did you ride down to him after this killing was over?
A: I went over to where Klingensmith was and Lee came down; he sent me down there to the wagons.
Q: What did he say when he told you to go back?
A: He told me that he wanted me to go down to the wagons of the emigrants and keep the Indians from taking the things out.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: I stayed there till John D. Lee and Isaac Haight came down.
Q: Are you certain that Lee came back?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Don't you know as a matter of fact that Lee went on to Hamblin's ranch?
A: I stayed there at the wagons until after he came back from Hamblin's ranch.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Did you sleep there in the field that night with White, Klingensmith and others?
A: I think likely I did. I stayed there until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came down.
Q: Don't you know you stayed there that night, and until the wagons were moved away?
A: I think I did.
Q: Don't you know that you did?
A: Yes, sir, I do.
Q: Who took those wagons away - who ordered the hitching up of the oxen and taking away of the wagons?
A: I don't know.
Q: Was it Klingensmith?
A: No, sir; he did not.
Q: Did John D. Lee?
A: No, sir. I don't know.
Q: Didn't you help drive the stock?
A: I went with them around to the Iron Springs.
Q: Who helped take the wagons down there - can't you give me the names of a few of them?
Witness refused to answer.
Q: How many whites did you see on the Mountain Meadows, at the time of the massacre?
A: I did not count them.
Q: About how many?
A: There was a considerable number, as many as forty or fifty.
Q: How far were they from where you kept watch at the wagons?
A: About half a mile.
Q: Half a mile from the emigrants' wagons?
A: Yes, sir; about that far.
Q: Who kept watch with you that night at the emigrant camp, to keep the Indians from stealing?
A: I don't want to bring in new names.
Q: I see you do not - except Lee's - how is that?
A: I have mentioned a good many names.
Q: You have been sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth; and I want you to tell me the names of those men.
A: Well, a man named Ure was with me.
Q: What was his fall name?
A: John Ure.
Q: How old was he?
A: I can't tell.
Q: Was he a man grown?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Is he living or dead?
A: He is alive.
Q: How long was it after you went there to keep the Indians from stealing that these other parties came to you?
A: I don't recollect of any coming until John D. Lee and Isaac C. Haight came.
Q: Next day?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you succeed in keeping the Indians from stealing there?
A: They had taken a good deal before I went there. After I went they didn't.
Q: You had considerable control over the Indians when you got there. They knew you, and you could talk their language, and when you told them to do anything they would do it?
A: Some of them would, and some wouldn't.
Q: They all agreed to quit stealing, didn't they?
A: No, sir.
Q: How did you keep them from stealing, then?
A: I didn't.
Q: What did they steal after you got there?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Did they steal anything - you know whether they did or not?
A: The Indians were at the wagons when I arrived and had taken out a good deal of stuff.
Q: What did they do after you arrived?
A: They took off what they wanted.
Q: Did they stop stealing when you told them to?
A: Not altogether.
Q: What did they take away?
A: Bedding and blankets.
Q: Isn't it a fact that they took just what they wanted, and that you did not stop them from stealing?
A: I did stop some of them.
Q: Well, didn't they carry off all they wanted?
A: They didn't carry it all away, but they did a good part of it.
Q: How many did you keep from stealing?
A: Five or six.
Q: How many Indians were there that you could not stop; how many were there around the wagons?
A: There was quite a lot that went away with their goods.
Q: Fifty, seventy five, or one hundred?
A: Not that many.
Q: How many did you see that day altogether?
A: There was a great number - over a hundred - there was a great number of them took horses and started off.
Q: Where did they get the horses?
A: From around that section of country.
Q: Emigrants' horses, I suppose?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: About how many horses did the emigrants have there?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Didn't you see the herd?
A: I saw the Indians with horses that they said they got there, but I did not see the herd of stock until it was started to the Iron Springs. I only came there the night before.
Q: Did you do anything toward burying the dead after the massacre?
A: No, sir.
Q: Then you did not help do that?
A: No, sir.
Q: Were you there at the time it was being done?
A: I saw men there working at it from where I was at the camp. They commenced burying the dead right off.
Q: The same evening of the massacre?
A: Well, sir, I can't tell you.
Q: You cannot tell whether it was the same night or the next morning?
A: I cannot.
Q: What number of men went from there to the Iron Springs with you?
A: There were some ten or twelve went along. I went on afterward. I had my horse. I rode my horse.
Q: Give me the names of as many as you can that went with you from the Meadows to the Iron Springs the day afterward.
A: I can't. I don't know as I can give the names.
Q: If you say you cannot give the names, I will not press it.
A: Well, I say I cannot.
Q: You say you cannot recollect any of the names of those who helped drive the stock?
A: No, sir, I can't.
Q: Who had charge of property as it was driven to the springs?
A: That I cannot tell.
Q: What was Klingensmith doing there?
A: I don't know. I don't recollect seeing him along.
Q: When did you last see Higbee there on the field? Did you see him after the massacre?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you see him the day after the massacre?
A: I can't tell whether I did or not.
Q: Were you present at any council that was held there on the field previous to the massacre, and hear any agreement as to the killing of the emigrants or anything of that sort?
A: No, sir, I didn't.
Q: You did not hear that anybody was to be killed until you heard the shooting?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When?
A: When I started after my horse I heard that the people were to be killed.
Q: Who told you?
A: John D. Lee told me.
Q: I thought you said he had left you?
A: He talked of it before he went to the camp.
Q: Just before that, then?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: I wish to get at all this, because I want you to tell everything that John D. Lee did. Tell me what he said to you about it?
A: He was talking to the men about getting the men out of their fortification.
Q: Was this after the flag of truce had been sent?
A: No, sir, before that.
Q: Who was Lee talking to?
A: Klingensmith, Higbee and others.
Q: Who were the others?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: How many others?
A: There was quite a lot of men.
Q: Thirty or forty?
A: I should judge there were.
Q: Did you hear Higbee say anything?
A: Higbee may have talked.
Q: Did any person make any objection to the killing of the emigrants?
A: It is a thing, sir, that I don't like to answer.
Q: I wish you to answer my question. Did any man or men, person or persons, there on the ground, make an objection to the killing of all the emigrants?
A: Yes, sir, a good many objected. But they didn't dare to say anything.
Q: How do you know they objected?
A: They dare not speak about it to those men.
Q: Did they speak up at the Council and make objections?
A: I was not at the Council.
Q: Did anyone of that thirty or forty men raise a voice against the killing of the emigrants, at the Council, on the field, or in the presence of Lee, Higbee or Klingensmith, or anyone else?
A: No, sir, they did not.
Q: What did John D. Lee say about it in the presence of Haight and Higbee?
A: He said we must get them out of there.
Q: Who was he talking to then?
A: Higbee and the others.
Q: Were they talking the matter over?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Tell me what was said?
A: I can't recollect.
Q: Do you recollect what Haight said?
A: Haight was not there.
Q: Then how was it that Lee was talking to Haight and Higbee if Haight was not there?
A: It was Higbee and Klingensmith he was talking to.
Q: What was it that Klingensmith said about killing the emigrants?
A: I can't tell.
Q: Then you cannot recollect what anyone said or did except John D. Lee?
A: No, because John D. Lee was the most conspicuous man in the whole thing.
Q: Klingensmith, the Bishop of the Church at Cedar City, Haight and Higbee, as Majors in the militia, all stood back and gave John D. Lee full control, did they?
A: He had control of everything on the field. He acted like a man that had control.
Q: Did he not have control?
A: I can't say.
Q: Did you not think at the time that John D. Lee had full control of everything and of every person there?
A: He acted like it.
Q: What do you believe about it?
A: No answer.
Q: Haight ordered you to go there?
A: Yes, and when I got there I went to Lee; that was the instruction.
Q: And you stayed by him and obeyed all of his orders?
A: No, sir, he wanted me to talk to the Indians in a way I didn't want to.
Q: Tell me how he wanted you to talk to the Indians?
A: He wanted me to tell them that they would get the emigrants out some way, so they could get their guns and horses.
Q: You refused to tell the Indians that, did you?
A: Well, I talked to them some.
Q: Did you tell them that or not?
A: I don't wish to answer that.
COURT –
You need not tell anything to incriminate yourself.
BISHOP –
Q: Can you tell me anything besides that, that you heard John Lee say?
A: No, sir, I cannot. That is all I recollect.
Q: What time of day was that, when Lee said, "We must get them out some way?
A: It was in the fore-part of the day.
Q: Who was in hearing distance when Lee said that?
A: I decline to answer.
HOWARD –
Q: You don't decline because it would incriminate you, do you?
A: No, sir.
Q: Then you cannot decline.
BISHOP-
Q: Tell me who was present, and heard that statement of Lee's?
A: I can't tell - there was a lot of them there.
Q: After you arrived at Iron Springs, did you and those with you talk the matter over and agree to keep it a secret?
A: The matter was talked over at the camp, and again at the Springs, about keeping it a secret, but I can't tell what the agreement was that was come to.
Q: Was the subject talked over as to whether it should be talked over afterwards or not?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: After that did you talk it over with those who were engaged in the affair with you, in which conversation you learned it was best to keep silent concerning the whole thing?
A: It was talked of that way - that it was best to keep still.
Q: What reasons were given, why it was best to keep still?
A: I can't tell you.
Q: Do you know what the reasons were, or do you decline to answer? Is it because you forget, or why can't you tell me?
A: It was because they didn't want it to be known - those men who were in it; the leaders in it didn't want it to get out.
Q: I asked you whether you ever had any conversation with anyone in regard to it?
A: I can't tell you whether I had or not. Of course such a thing as that men would talk about. That's what the matter now. It has been talked about and can't lie still.
Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Haight about this massacre since it occurred?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you ever have a conversation with Stewart?
A: No, sir.
Q: Did you ever have one with Higbee about keeping it still?
A: Not that I know of.
Q: Did you ever talk with Allen, Klingensmith or any other party that was there, about keeping it still?
A: I tell you I don't recollect having a conversation about keeping it still. Such a thing was talked about, but I don't now recollect talking about it.
Q: Did you hear either of those men talk about it, about keeping it secret?
A: No answer.
Q: Is it not a fact that after the property was all gathered up at the Meadows, and you were ready to start for Iron Springs, that speeches were made to the men present, by those in authority, in which speeches you were ordered to keep it a secret forever?
A: There were a great many speeches made.
Q: At the Meadows, before you left there, was it not told you in a speech then made to you, that it must be kept secret; that it would be best to keep silent? Were you not so advised by your leaders?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who gave that advice? Who ordered you to keep silent?
A: Klingensmith and Haight gave the advice....
Sworn for the prosecution.
HOWARD –
Q: Where did you live in August and September, 1867?
A: My home was supposed to be at Clara, but I occupied the Mountain Meadows in the summer with my stock.
Q: What county was Mountain Meadows in at that time?
A: It was considered in Iron County. It was before Washington County was organized.
Q: It is in Washington County now?
A: Yes; I believe it is.
Q: Do you remember the time of this massacre?
A: I was not at home; I left before it happened, and I got back seven or eight days after.
Q: How long before it happened was it that you left home?
A: I don't know; I met the company at Com Creek, and camped with them there.
Q: You were going north, to the city?
A: Yes.
Q: When you returned had the massacre taken place?
A: Yes, sir; it was done before I got home - I heard of it before I got home.
Q: When you got home, what did you find there on the ground?
A: Well, there were the bodies of the company lying about there.
Q: Were they dead or alive?
A: I didn't see any live ones lying there.
Q: How many dead ones did you see?
A: I suppose over one hundred.
Q: Did you count the skulls there?
A: The next spring, I took my man and we buried over one hundred and twenty skulls - skeletons; I don't remember exactly, something like one hundred and twenty. Two of us gathered up the bones.
Q: Did you count the skulls?
A: Yes, sir; we counted them.
Q :Can you now remember how many there were?
A: I think it was one hundred and twenty odd; I am satisfied it was over that, but I don't just remember the number.
Q: After the massacre did you have any conversation with John D. Lee about it?
A: I don't know as I did after I got home.
Q: Did you see him before you got home on that trip?
A: I did. I met him at Fillmore.
Q: Was that after the massacre?
A: Yes, sir; it was this side of Fillmore. I told him I heard a rumor of it among the Indians, and he told me about it.
Q: State whether he had any boasts to make about it, or communications concerning it. If so what and how?
A: I asked him how it came up, or something of that kind. He said that the emigrants passed through and threatened to make their outfit out of those outlying settlements, and that he could not keep the Indians back, and he had to go and lead the next attack, and he got a bullet hole through his hat and shirt, and then afterwards got more Indians and had to decoy them out
Q: Tell me the whole conversation?
A: I will if you will let me. That was the conversation. I talked about it with him, and he justified himself in this way: That the Indians made him go out and go and lead the next attack; afterwards they called on the Clara Indians, and that he decoyed them out, and they massacred them.
Q: Did he say where he decoyed them out?
A: Decoyed them out of the emigrant camp.
Q: Did he say why the massacre took place?
A: Yes, I believe he gave reasons for it.
Q: What were they?
A: Well, that the attack had been made by the Indians, and that they could not keep them back, and it was supposed expedient. That there was an army right on our border. That they would lead to giving the people much bother and trouble, and that they would testify against them, and so on, and it was thought best to use them up - all that could tell tales, that is as near as I can remember.
Q: Who did he say concluded that?
A: I don't think he mentioned any names.
Q: Did he tell you whether any other white men were with him or not at the time he led the attack?
A: He said that there was no one with him.
Q: Did he tell you how it happened that he got down there and was there alone?
A: Yes; I told you. He went out to watch them and keep them from making their outfit from the outlying settlements, and the Indians could not be restrained.
Q: How long did he say that attack was made before the massacre?
A: It ran along three or four days, he told me.
Cross examined -
Q. In the conversation that you had with Lee, did he not state to you that after the attack had been made by the Indians upon the emigrants that word had been sent to Cedar City for assistance to save the emigrants from the Indians?
A: Yes, sir - said they sent word there.
Q: Who did he tell you sent word to Cedar City?
A: He did - he sent word.
Q: What did he tell you that word was that he sent to Cedar City?
A: He sent word that the emigrants had been attacked - that the Indians were very mad, and he didn't know how to keep them down.
Q: Give, as near as you can the conversation that you had with Mr. Lee at the time you refer to?
A: I believe I have.
Q: Didn't he tell you that Haight or Higbee sent back word that the emigrants must be destroyed, because of the fact that Stewart had killed Aiden at the springs? Didn't he mention something of that kind to you in that same conversation?
A: I don't remember as he did. He spoke of some man being shot at Little Pinto in the course of the evening. It was after the Indians had attacked, if I remember right, that some men left the camp and undertook to go to Cedar City, and were killed on the way - one or two I think, and one or two came back.
Q: Go on and tell all that he told you about it, about the killing of that man at Pinto - how it was done, and all about it.
A: I don't know that I can. I remember that he said that there was one killed there that went out to see if they could get help from Cedar City. Two or three went, and one was killed and one or two came back in the night. I don't know but that they got back to camp.
Q: Did he tell you what word was sent back to him from Cedar City after that time?
A: Yes; he told me something about the message that came there.
Q: Tell me what was said about it?
A: One message came to not disturb the emigrants, and after the message went that they had been attacked, I think he said that there was one that they be all killed or used up.
Q: Go on and tell what he said was in that last message - he was explaining it to you
A: I am satisfied the message was - it commenced that they should be used up, or something like that.
Q: Did he tell you who that message was from?
A: I don't think he did.
Q: Did he tell you where it was from, whether from Cedar City or elsewhere
A: No, he used the language that he got word.
Redirect.
Q: Do you believe what he said, that he got a message to use up those emigrants, from any authority?
A: I don't know that I do.
Q: Don't you know that he lied about it?
A: No answer.
Q: Don't you think he did?
A: No answer.
Q: He was telling you this in justification after the massacre?
A: Yes, he told me that. I asked what called for such an act, and he told what the reason was.
Q: He gave you that reply in his justification?
A: He said he got word to use them up, that this army was on the borders.
Q: He got word that being commenced, that on account of the army being on the borders, that he had better finish it?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you understand that that came from Higbee or Haight - that word?
A: I don't think he said.
Q: Do you know the relations existing between Higbee, Haight and Lee, so as to know from whom it came?
A: I would expect it would come from Isaac C. Haight, if any word was sent from Cedar City; if it was north, it would be from Parowan, but I don't think he told me where it was from.
Q: Klingensmith was in a position, I suppose, to send such word, if any was sent?
A: Klingensmith was presiding Bishop. If it was orders in a military capacity it would be somebody else
Q: If it was in a military capacity, who would it have been from?
A: The way I understand it, it would be Dame.
Q: If he told the truth and authority came to him from a superior military officer - and if it came from an ecclesiastical, who would it have been from
A: It would have been from Klingensmith.
Jacob Hamblin Re-called.strong>
HOWARD – I am not in the habit, your Honor, of recalling a witness this way, but I was not fully posted in regard to all the facts that Mr. Hamblin would testify to. I have found he knows some additional facts, and I will ask leave to examine him further.
Q: How far above this place, Beaver, was it that you had a conversation with John D. Lee?
A: It was about some springs, this side of Fillmore, probably seven or eight miles.
Q: How far is Fillmore from here?
A: About sixty miles.
Q: How far is Cedar City from here?
A: Supposed to be fifty-five miles - fifty-three to fifty-five miles.
Q: Is there any other place called Cedar City, except Cedar City?
A: No, sir, I don't know any. It is called Cedar or Cedar City.
Q: How far is it from Cedar City to Parowan?
A: Eighteen miles, I used to suppose it was. I have heard it called that.
Q: How far is it from Parowan to Harmony?
A: About thirty-five miles, it is supposed to be.
Q: Is Harmony on the road, or is it off of the road from Cedar City to the Meadows?
A: It is twelve miles south of the road.
Q: Where do you leave the road going from Parowan to the Meadows, to go to Harmony?
A: We leave it two and a half miles below Cedar City.
Q: Then it is off to the left as you are going?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where Is Pinto?
A: It would be within seven miles of the north end of the Meadows, where my ranch was.
Q: What was the condition of the Meadows at that time, with regard to being a good stopping place for travelers?
A: At that time it had a very luxuriant growth of grass all over the valley, and springs at each end. It was considered a good stopping place for companies, and was occupied by myself and two or three others at the north end. We had then formed a settlement called the Clara.
Q: In this conversation that you had with Mr. Lee, did he say anything to you about the manner in which, or by whom, the men had been drawn into that massacre? If he did, will you state all he said, in your own way?
A: It was a long while ago, but I recollect him telling we that there were white men there, and that they didn't know what they were going for until they got there, and some would not act and some would.
Q: What do you know about the disposition of the property of those emigrants
A: There was none on the Meadows when I got there, that I saw. I saw two or three young men driving two or three hundred head of cattle, going to the Iron Springs. Afterwards I saw them on the Harmony range - that drove of Texas cattle.
Q: Whose range was the Harmony range?
A: It belonged to the Harmony settlement - the citizens of Harmony.
Q: Do you know of Mr. Lee using any of those cattle, butchering or using any of them?
A: He had charge of them.
BISHOP –
Q: To save time and trouble, we will admit the corpus delicti.
Of course it is understood that counsel cannot admit anything against his client in a criminal case. But there will be no question raised about it. It is an undisputed fact that something like one hundred and twenty people were killed about that time and at that place. And that the number of people charged in the indictment were killed there will be no question. That they were killed at that place there will be no question. We will never argue before any court that there has not been a killing as charged in the indictment, except that we will always argue that the defendant did not do it.
Q: Calling your attention back to that conversation, I will ask you to tell the court and jury, in your own way, what Mr. Lee told you in regard to his personal participation in that killing, if he told you anything?
A: Well, I believe I told it here yesterday - that he spoke of white men being engaged in it, and that he made an attack at daylight; that he could not keep the Indians back. They were so mad because one of their men got killed, and another wounded, that he led the attack and got a bullet through his hat and another through his shirt. The talk was something like this: They went out there to watch the emigrants and see that they should not get their outfit from the outlying settlements; that the Indians made the attack at daylight, and one of them got killed and another wounded, and that raised their temper to such a pitch that they went for him and compelled him to lead the attack, which he did once or twice once anyway - and got the bullet through his hat and one through his shirt. The, emigrants were so strongly entrenched they could do nothing with them. And afterwards they were under the necessity of decoying them out with a flag of trace. And they came along in the Meadows to where the Indians were lying in ambush, and they rose up and massacred them. The emigrants were unarmed.
Q: Tell what else he told you?
A: Well, he spoke of many little incidents.
Q: Mention any of those incidents?
A: There were two young ladies brought out.
Q: Whom by?
A: By an Indian Chief at Cedar City, and he asked him what he should do with them, and the Indian killed one and he killed the other.
Q: Tell the story as he told you.
A: That is about it.
Q: Where were those young girls brought from - did he say?
A: From a thicket of oak brush, where they were concealed. It was an Indian Chief from Cedar City.
Q: Tell just what he said about that.
A: The Indian killed one and he cut the other one's throat, is what he said.
Q: Who cut the other's throat?
A: Mr. Lee.
Q: Tell me what Mr. Lee said; state the circumstances of that killing, what conversation passed between that Indian Chief and Lee, and the conversation between the woman and himself?
A: I don't know that I could.
Q: Tell all you can remember about it; you say the Chief brought him the girls. I think I have told it about all. Go over it again; tell us all the details of the conversation of the killing.
A: Well, he said they were all killed - all, as he supposed; that the Chief of Cedar City then brought out the young ladies.
Q: What did he say the Chief said to him?
A: Asked what he should do with them.
Q: What else did the Chief say?
A: He said they didn't ought to be killed.
Q: Did the Chief say to Lee why they should not be killed?
A: Well, he said they were pretty and he wanted to save them.
Q: What did he tell you that he said to the Chief?
A: According to the orders that he had that they were too old and too big to let live.
Q: Then what did he say took place - what did he say he told the Chief to do?
A: The Chief shot one of them.
Q: Did he say he told the Chief to shoot her?
A: He said he told him to.
Q: What did he say the girl did when he told the Chief to shoot her?
A: I don't know.
Q: Did she cover her face?
A: No; he didn't say she covered her face.
Q: Did he say she pulled her bonnet down over her face?
A: He didn't tell me so.
Q: Who did he say were by when that shooting took place?
A: Indians standing round - a good many.
Q: After the Chief shot that one did he tell you what the other one said or did to him, Lee?
A: I don't think Mr. Lee did tell me.
Q: Did he tell you himself who killed the other one?
A: I told you that he said it was a Cedar City Chief that killed one.
Q: Who killed the other?
A: He did it, he said.
Q: How?
A: He threw her down and cut her throat.
Q: Did he tell you what she said to him?
A: No.
Q: Who did tell you that?
A: The Indians told me a good many things.
Q: Didn't Mr. Lee tell you that she told him to spare her life, and she would love him as long as she lived?
A: Lee didn't tell me that.
Q: Did you ascertain in that conversation, or subsequently, where it was that they were killed?
A: When I got home I asked my Indian boy, and he went out to where this took place, and he saw two young ladies lying there with their throats cut.
Q: How old was he?
A: Sixteen or seventeen.
Q: What was the condition of those bodies?
A: They were rather in a putrid state; their throats were cut; I didn't look further than that.
Q: What were their ages?
A: Looked about fourteen or fifteen.
Q: At what point were their bodies from the others?
A: Southeast direction, towards some thickets of oak.
Q: How far off?
A: About fifty yards.
Q: Were those bodies up a little ravine, a little way?
A: Yes, on a rise of ground.
Q: What were their ages, about?
A: Thirteen to fifteen, I would suppose.
Q: Did you learn from the children, or from any other source, their names?
A: Well, I suppose I did.
Q: What name?
A: There was a little girl at my house, I found with my family that was in that company; she said their names were Dunlap; she claimed to be their sister.
Q: How old was she?
A: Eight years old, she said.
Q: Did you go up there and find those bodies yourself, with the assistance of the Indian boy?
A: I walked over the ground, looked at it all pretty much and saw these two bodies.
Q: He told you where those two bodies were to be found, did he?
A: Yes, sir. The others had been buried slightly, but those two hadn't been; there was quite a number scattering around there.
Q: What became of the children of those emigrants? How many children were brought there?
A: Two to my house, and several in Cedar City. I was acting subagent for Forney. I gathered the children up for him; seventeen in number, all I could learn of.
Q: Whom did you deliver them to?
A: Forney, Superintendent of Indian Affairs for Utah.
Q: Were there any of the wagons or other property burned there on the ground?
A: I never saw any sign of burning, and never heard of any being burned.
Cross examined by BISHOP:
Q: What day in September was it that you had this conversation with John D. Lee, about seven or eight miles this side of Fillmore?
A: I don't recollect the date, I left the city about the 14th, and came directly there.
Q: Who was present at that conversation?
A: A man by the name of Bishop.
Q: That was not me?
A: No; that man had two good eyes, and you have but one.
Q: What Bishop was that, was he a Mormon Bishop?
A: No, he was not a Mormon Bishop; he was a merchant. He had been hauling goods from California, and dealing here some in these settlements.
Q: Can you give me his other name?
A: No, sir; I never heard it.
Q: Was it Jesse Bishop?
A: I don't know his other name.
Q: Lee told you and this man Bishop all about it - got you two together and told you?
A: I don't think Bishop heard the conversation, or much of it.
Q: Did Bishop hear any of it?
A: I don't know that he did, or that he didn't.
Q: Then why did you say that he told you and this man Bishop?
A: I said he was there.
Q: You heard the conversation?
A: Yes, I heard it; but I don't know as any other man heard it.
Q: There was a man present by the name of Bishop?
A: He was in the same camp.
Q: Where were you at the time this conversation took place?
A: I was five or six miles this side of Fillmore, at the Springs.
Q: What time of day was it?
A: It was afternoon sometime.
Q: Which way was John D. Lee traveling at the time you saw him?
A: Going north, to the city.
Q: You were going South?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Tell me what he said about the orders that he had. You have said that he told the Chief to kill the little girl, and that he killed the other, because his orders were that they were all to be used up.
A: He said he had orders to use up all that company that could tell tales.
Q: Where did he get these orders from? Did he tell you that?
A: I told you no, that I don't remember that he did.
Q: Do you recollect that he didn't?
A: If he did I don't recollect it.
Q: I want to get as full a statement of facts as possible. I want you to tell me everything that you think he said, or, that he did say. When did he tell you that he got those orders from Cedar City?
A: It was my impression that he got them from Cedar City, but I could not say what the man said about it, but I had that idea.
Q: Who else did he tell you was on the ground siding in this killing?
A: The names I don't know as he mentioned. I think he mentioned Bishop Klingensmith being there.
Q: Who else?
A: He mentioned Higbee being there.
Q: Who else did he mention?
A: He mentioned my brother being there, bringing some Indians there. He sent him word to bring the Indians up there. Sent him word of this affair taking place, and for him to go and get the Indians, and bring up the Clara Indians.
Q: Your brother, then, brought the Indians to the Meadows, and then left there?
A: Yes, he told me so.
Q: Now, how was it about the Indians making an attack about daylight? Were they repulsed?
A: Yes.
Q: One killed and another wounded?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: That enraged the Indians, and so Lee led the next attack?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who do you mean were so enraged - the Indians?
A: Yes, the Indians. He claimed the idea that he had to do it to save his own life. They were very mad, and wanted him to help use up that company.
Q: Did he not tell you in that same conversation that he tried to appease the Indians and keep them from attacking the train?
A: I don't remember just the words, but he said he could not keep them from attacking them just at daylight.
Q: Didn't he tell you that he tried to keep them off?
A: I don't think so. I think he said he could not keep them off.
Q: Did he say anything about the Indians calling him any names because he would not go?
A: He went off towards the Clara and cried, and they called him crier - yah gauts.
Q: Why did they call him this?
A: Because he cried.
Q: That was before he led the attack?
A: I don't know.
Q: Are you positive that he told you that he cut that woman's throat?
A: Yes, I am positive of that, or I would not have told it.
Q: How long is it since you have told anybody that John D. Lee had told you that?
A: It has been about three seconds.
Q: Where have you lived since the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
A: My family has been at the Clara the most of the time; the last six years have been at Kanab.
Q: You have lived in Utah all that time?
A: My home has been in Utah.
Q: That has been your home?
A: My home has been in Utah.
Q: Didn't Lee tell you more than you have told? Didn't he tell you about a Council that was held on the field before the massacre?
A: He told me. We had a good deal of conversation about it.
Q: Tell me if he did not inform you that a Council was held on the field, on Mountain Meadows, by the people from Cedar City, before the massacre, and that he opposed the killing of the emigrants until he found that he could do no good?
A: After we had talked some time I asked the necessity of such a thing, or why it was, and he told me that he had orders to do so.
Q: Did he not tell you that there was a Council held there at the Meadows, and that it was then decided that they should be killed?
A: No, I never heard that there was a Council held there to make any decision, or to decide anything but the subject or counseling how to decoy them out.
Q: Who counseled with them?
A: There was Klingensmith, the Bishop of Cedar City.
Q: Who else counseled with him?
A: I think he said John M. Higbee. I am satisfied it was.
Q: Did he tell you how long before the massacre it was that they talked this over?
A: I don't think that he did.
Q: You were a subagent and Indian interpreter at that time, were you not?
A: Right away after that Forney appointed me as subagent. At that time I was no agent, nor in any particular office, unless a missionary in the south country to establish some settlements on the Clara.
Q: What reason did Lee give you in that conversation for the killing of the emigrants? He must have given you some reason why it was necessary to commit such a deed?
A: I asked what called for it, why they did it. He said that attack at daylight would have thrown censure upon this people.
Q: On what people?
A: The people that were living here.
Q: Do you mean the whites that were living here at the time?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Go on and tell all he said. I want you to make it as bad as you can tell all that you said, all that he said?
A: I would not undertake that.
Q: Tell all that you can recollect? I have, the substance of it? There must have been a good deal said about the reasons for doing this thing?
A: The cause that he always gave to me was that which I told you. That after they came through there and behaved very rough, and said that they helped kill old Joe Smith, and were going to be ready there at the Meadows when their teams got recruited, and when Johnston commenced on the north end, they would on the south end, and he was asked by authority - Haight or Dame - to go and watch those emigrants and see that they didn't molest those weak settlements. When I asked him what it was for - that in doing so, when they got there the Indians made this attack at daylight.
Q: The Indians then made the first attack?
A: He said they made it voluntarily - they made the first attack.
Q: You spoke of General Johnston's army marching towards Utah. Where was it?
A: At Fort Bridger then.
Q: Who was it understood that Johnston was understood to be marching against them?
A: The understanding and feeling was that he was marching against the Mormons as a people, Church or nation, and was going to try to burst up the whole concern. That was what we expected.
Q: You expected, then, that Johnston with the army of the United States, was leading that army against this people?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: With the intention of exterminating them or compelling them to abandon their religion?
A: Yes, sir, that was my belief - to do away with the Mormon religion.
Q: How long before that had it been that this same feeling of fear or anxiety had been felt by this people, occasioned by Johnston's approach?
A: I think it had been two or three months, it had come south at the time. I think it was the 24th of July when a celebration was held in one of the canyons, that word came that Johnston was on his way.
Q: After that 24th of July, did that report have any effect on this people to cause them to organize as a military people?
A: No, that was organized before that, as far as I knew and was acquainted with the counsel.
Q: From that time on up to the time of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, tell me if the people were organized as a militia, and enrolled as such?
A: The instructions we had from George A. Smith, who was sent as representing President Young's mind, was to save everything like breadstuff, and use it when we wanted it.
Q: Did the people ever meet and drill, have exercises and musters, so as to make them understand the use of arms, and make them familiar with military tactics?
A: Yes, sir, there used to be drills, sometimes, those days.
Q: Was it not a general occurrence for them to meet and drill?
A: Yes, they drilled at Fillmore and Cedar - I don't know about Harmony - using as much effort as possible to perfect themselves in military tactics. They were always doing that; they did that in Illinois.
Q: Did you not understand that all the men between eighteen and sixty years of age were enrolled in the militia?
A: Yes, I understood it so.
Q: Who was the highest military officer in this division?
A: William H. Dame was first in command in the southern country. He was Colonel of the Iron Militia, as I understood it. I was out a good deal.
Q: Who was the highest military officer at Cedar City?
A: Well, that I could not testify to, but I think it was Isaac C. Haight, but I would not testify to it, because I don't know.
Q: State if you know whether John M. Higbee belonged to the militia or not?
A: Well, he belonged to the militia, but whether as private or officer, I don't know.
Q: How many men did John D. Lee tell you had gone from Cedar City to the Mountain Meadows, and that were present at the time of the Massacre?
A: Well, if he told me I have forgotten.
Q: Did you ever have a conversation with him, or with any other person, as to how many or about how many were there?
A: No, I don't know that I had. I heard there was something like fifty in all from Cedar City and from below there, but that is nothing but an idea - not founded on fact as reports.
Q: You spoke about Lee telling you that there was a necessity for killing those young girls, because they were older than those that his orders permitted him to save. State now, if he did not tell you in that conversation some reason for the killing of the grown people.
A: The reason was what I told you.
Q: Did he not say that if they were permitted to go they would tell the tale in California, about what had been done there by the Mormons?
A: His talk was and his excuses were that it would be a bad thing for the people here in Utah, if it was known, and got out in such a troublous time. It would bring much trouble on the Mormons as a people.
Q: Was not that trouble to come from their notifying the people of California of what had been done?
A: Well, yes. When I interrogated him about that he said - I think he said - it would have a tendency to bring trouble from California.
Q: Did he not tell you that that was the understanding of the people, that if they were permitted to go, that it would call an army from the south, and that was the reason these instructions were sent as they were?
A: He didn't say anything about the people.
Q: Did he not tell you why the instructions came to him as they did?
A: He did not tell who it came from, he said he did it by authority.
Q: Did he not tell you that he did it by authority and the reason that authority gave was that these parties, if permitted to go, would raise a war cloud in California?
A: I don't know as he did. He said it would lead to bringing an army down upon liS; that is what he told me.
Q: Did he tell you anything further?
A: I think I have told you all that was important that John D. Lee said.
Q: Did not John D. Lee tell you in that same conversation, that after the Indians made the attack the first time, that one or more men started from the emigrant camp for Cedar City, and met some men going to the emigrant camp from Cedar City; that they met at the springs, and that then Young Aiden was killed by William C. Stewart?
A: He gave me an account of it.
Q: Tell me what he said about it?
A: I can't do that.
Q: Then give the substance of it.
A: It would be from memory, and there might be an error in it. He told me - he spoke of three men starting back to go to Cedar City to get assistance and to give information of what was going on after the first Indian attack. During that time there were three men went out in the night, and one was killed at Little Pinto, four miles this side of the Meadows. I don't know who he said killed them. I don't know as he said that he knew. I think one was killed there, and the other got back to their camp. They wounded one in the night, and the thought was this would lead to trouble if they were permitted to go, on account of this man being wounded and telling how it was done, and what had happened in the past, was about his language; what had happened would lead to bringing trouble, perhaps an army on the southern people, and especially that action at the springs, in the killing that man.
Q: Did Lee tell you who was at the springs at that time?
A: No, if he did, I don't remember.
Q: Did he say this to you - that it was understood by the authorities that one man was wounded at the springs, and one man killed by Stewart, and if those people were permitted to go to California they would notify the people of California that the whites had made an attack in conjunction with the -- Indians; that they would lead an army from the south and west, and that for safety they considered it necessary as a war measure to kill those people?
A: I think he told you that, Mr. Bishop. I told you that when I asked him, he told me that that would lead to bringing an army here. I am satisfied that is what he said. But as to the particulars of the killing at Little Pinto I could not say, only that a man was killed there and one wounded, and they had got back; that the attack at daylight was the cause of the emigrants being killed.
Q: Mr. Hamblin, have you now detailed to the jury all of the conversation that you had with John D. Lee, at the time that you met him seven or eight miles this side of Fillmore?
A: I think I have, that I recollect distinctly enough to mention here. I may think of something else.
Q: You say you saw some of the cattle on the Harmony range. How many people used that range for their cattle?
A: I think something like twenty families.
Q: Do you know who took charge of the stock immediately after the massacre?
A: I met two young men driving it - between two and three hundred head.
Q: Who were they?
A: They lived at Cedar City. I did not know them. They said they were going to drive them to the Iron Springs, and then afterwards I learned that John D. Lee took them.
Q: Who were those young men?
A: I do not know. I was not acquainted with them. I was not much acquainted at Cedar City. They lived there, they said.
Q: How far did you live from Cedar City at that time?
A: My family was then twenty-eight miles from Cedar City, at the Meadows.
Q: Did you spend any time at Cedar City soon afterwards?
A: When I came through I stopped about ten minutes. I was on an express.
Q: Where were you carrying the express?
A: I was going to overtake another company. Colonel Dame was afraid they would jump into them, and wanted me to go and see to it.
Q: Afraid who would jump into them?
A: The Indians.
Q: Where did you get that express?
A: From him.
Q: Where at?
A: At Wild Cat Canyon, eight or ten miles north of here.
Q: That was when you were coming from Salt Lake?
A: That was.
Q: After you had left John D. Lee?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Who were you carrying that express to?
A: To the Indians - if there were any. He said he had learned they were following up this company.
Q: What company?
A: The company that was following up the company that was massacred. They were stopped here a while, and the Indians wounded one, or killed one, or something.
Q: Have you ever given this conversation that you had with Lee, to any one, to the public generally? I do not ask if you have stated it to the counsel in the case, but to others?
A: I have no recollection of it.
Q: Have you ever given it to any court or jury, or given a statement of it?
A: No, sir, not at all - not until now.
Q: Have you ever given a report of it to any of your superiors in the Church, or officers over you?
A: Well, I did speak of it to President Young and George A. Smith.
Q: Did you give them the whole facts?
A: I gave them some more than I have here, because I recollected more of it.
Q: When did you do that?
A: Pretty soon after it happened.
Q: You are certain you told it fuller than you have told it here on the stand?
A: I told them everything I could.
Q: Who else did you tell it to?
A: I have no recollection of telling it to any one else.
Q: Why have you not told it before this time?
A: Because I did not feel like it.
Q: Why did you not feel like it? You felt and knew that a great crime had been committed, did you not?
A: I felt that a great crime had been committed. But Brigham Young told me that "as soon as we can get a court of justice, we will ferret this thing out, but till then don't say anything about it."
Q: There have been courts of justice in this territory ever since that time?
A: I have never seen the effects of it yet. I have seen it tried.
Q: Then this to the first time you have ever felt at liberty to tell it?
A: It is the first time I ever felt that any good would come of it. I kept it to myself until it was called for in the proper place.
Q: You feel now that the proper time has come?
A: I do indeed.
Q: I presume you have talked it over with friends, and they advised you that this would be a good time and place to tell it?
A: I had an idea that if I came here that it would be a pretty good place to tell it.
Q: And in pursuance of that idea you are going on to tell it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Are you certain that you have told all that you know about it?
A: I am certain that I know all I tell.
Q: Answer the other part?
A: I think I have, all that is important.
Q: Have you told it all?
A: No, sir, I have not.
Q: Then tell it?
A: I will not undertake that now. I would not like to undertake it.
Redirect –
HOWARD:
Q: How long have you known John D. Lee?
A: Between thirty and forty years.
Q: How long is it since Mr. Lee ceased to be so ardent in his feelings and religious zeal that he was willing to run the risk he did down there at the Mountain Meadows, to defend his religion?
A: What I knew of him, he was always pretty zealous in what is called Mormonism - he was at that time.
Q: How is it now?
BISHOP –
Q: We object to the question; it is not expected that a man shall be called a criminal for giving up his belief in such a Church. It is wholly foreign to the question at issue.
Objection sustained.
Affidavit of Phillip Klingon Smith (or Klingensmith)
STATE OF NEVADA, COUNTY OF LINCOLN, ss:-
Personally appeared before me, Peter B. Miller, Clerk of Court of the Seventh Judicial District of the State of Nevada, Philip Klingon Smith, who being duly sworn, on his oath, says:My name is Philip Klingon Smith; I reside in the county of Lincoln, in the State of Nevada; I resided at Cedar City, in the County of Iron, in the Territory of Utah, from A.D. 1852 to A.D. 1859; I was residing at said Cedar City at the time of the massacre at Mountain Meadows, in said Territory of Utah; I had heard that a company of emigrants was on its way from Salt Lake City, bound for California; after said company had left Cedar City, the militia was called out for the purpose of committing acts of hostility against them; said call was a regular military call from the superior officers to the subordinate officers and privates of the regiment at Cedar City and vicinity, composing a part of the militia of the Territory of Utah; I do not recollect the number of the regiment. I was at that time the Bishop of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints at Cedar City; Isaac C. Haight was President over said church at Cedar City and the southern settlements in said Territory; my position as Bishop was subordinate to that of said President; W. H. Dame was the President of said Church at Parowan in said Iron County; said W. H. Dame was also colonel of said regiment; said Isaac C. Haight was lieutenant-colonel of said regiment, and said John D. Lee, of Harmony in said Iron County, was major of said regiment; said regiment was duly ordered to muster, armed and equipped as the law directs, and prepared for field operations; I had no command nor office in said regiment at the time, neither did I march with said regiment on the expedition which resulted in said company's being massacred in the Mountain Meadows, in said County of Iron; about four days after said company of emigrants had left Cedar City, that portion of said regiment then mustered at Cedar City took up its line of march in pursuit of them; about two days after said company had left said Cedar City, Lieutenant-Colonel I. C. Haight expressed in my presence, a desire that said company might be permitted to pass on their way in peace; but afterward he told me that he had orders from headquarters to kill all of said company of emigrants except the little children; I do not know whether said headquarters meant the Regimental Headquarters at Parowan, or the Headquarters of the Commander-in-chief at Salt Lake City; when the said company had got to Iron Creek about twenty (20) miles from Cedar City, Captain Joel White started for Pinto Creek settlement, through which said company would pass, for the purpose of influencing the people to permit said company to pass on their way in peace; I asked and obtained permission of said White to go with him and aid him in his endeavors to save life; when said White and myself got about three miles from Cedar City we met Major John D. Lee, who asked us where we were going; I replied that we were going to try to prevent' the killing of the emigrants, Lee replied, 'I have something to say about that;' Lee was at that time on his way to Parowan, the Head_ quarters of Colonel Dame; said White and I went to Pinto Creek; remained there one night, and the next day returned to Cedar City, meeting said company of emigrants at Iron Creek; before reaching Cedar City we met one Ira Allen, who told us 'that the. decree had passed, devoting said company to destruction;' after the fight had been going on for three or four days, a messenger from Major Lee reached Cedar City, who stated that the fight had not been altogether successful, upon which Lieutenant-Colonel Haight ordered out a reinforcement; at this time I was ordered out by Captain John M. Higbee, who ordered me to muster, 'armed and equipped as the law directs;' it was a matter of life or death to me to muster or not, and I mustered with the reinforcing troops; it was at this time that Lieutenant-Colonel Haight said to me that it was the orders from headquarters that all but the little children of said company were to be killed; said Haight had at that time just returned from headquarters at Parowan, where a military council had been held; there had been a like council held at Parowan previous to that, at which were present Colonel Dame, Lieutenant-Colonel 1. C. Haight, and Major John D. Lee; the result of this first council was the calling out of said regiment for the purpose already stated; the reinforcement aforesaid was marched to the Mountain Meadows, and there formed a junction with the main body; Major Lee massed all the troops at a spring, and made a speech to them, saying that his orders from headquarters were to kill the entire company except the small children; I was not in the ranks at that time, but on the side talking to a man named Slade, and could not have seen a paper in Major Lee's hands; said Lee then sent a flag of truce into the emigrant camp, offering said emigrants that 'if they lay down their arms, he would protect them'; they accordingly laid down their arms, came out from their camp, and delivered themselves to said Lee; the women and children were then, by the order of said Lee, separated from the men, and were marched ahead of the men; after said emigrants had marched about a half mile toward Cedar City, the order was given to shoot them down; at that time said Lee was at the head of the column; I was in the rear. I did not hear Lee give the order to fire, but heard it from the under officers as it was passed down the column; the emigrants were then and there shot down except seventeen little children, which I immediately took into my charge; I do not know that total number of said company as I did not stop to count the dead; I immediately put the little children in baggage-wagons belonging to the regiment, and took them to Hamlin's ranch, and from there to Cedar City, and procured them homes among the people; John Willis and Samuel Murdy assisted me in taking charge of said children; on the evening of the massacre, Colonel W. H. Dame and Lieutenant 1. C. Haight came to Hamblin's, where I had said children, and fell into a dispute, in the course of which said Haight told Colonel Dame, that, if he was going to report of the killing of said emigrants, he should not have ordered it done; I do not know when or where said troops were disbanded; about two weeks after said massacre occurred, said Major Lee (who was also an Indian Agent), went to Salt Lake City. and, as I believe, reported said fight and its results to the commander-in-chief; I was not present at either of the before-mentioned councils, nor at any council connected with the aforesaid military operations, or with said company; I gave no orders except those connected with the saving of the children, and those, after the massacre had occurred, and said orders were given as bishop and not in a military sense; at the time of the firing of the first volley I discharged my piece; I did not fire afterward, though several subsequent volleys were fired; after the first fire we delivered I at once set about saving the children; I commenced to gather the children before the firing had ceased. I have made the foregoing statement before the above-entitled court for the reason that I believe that I would be assassinated should I attempt to make the same before any court in the Territory of Utah. After said Lee returned from Salt Lake City, as aforesaid, said Lee told me that he had reported fully to the President, meaning the Commander-in-chief, the fight at Mountain Meadows, and the killing of said emigrants. Brigham Young was at that time the Commander-in-chief of the militia of the Territory of Utah; and further deponent saith not.
(Signed) PHILIP KLINGON SMITH
Subscribed and sworn to before me this 10th day of April A.D. 1871.
District Court, seventh Judicial District, Lincoln County, Nevada.