(March 9, 2006: pages 717-790 transcript)
CLARENCE E. PREVOST, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
19 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
20 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
21 DIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. Good morning, sir. Can you state your full name, spelling
24 both your first and last names.
25 A. Clarence Earl Prevost, P-r-e-v-o-s-t, Clarence.
1 Q. I'm sorry, go ahead.
2 A. My nickname is Clancy.
3 Q. Okay. Do you want to spell Clancy?
4 A. C-l-a-n-c-y.
5 Q. Mr. Prevost, how old are you?
6 A. 68.
7 Q. And what do you do for a living?
8 A. I'm a simulator flight instructor.
9 Q. And are you also a pilot?
10 A. I used to be a pilot for Northwest Airlines.
11 Q. And when did you become a pilot?
12 A. I enlisted in the Navy in 1963 and learned to fly in the
14 Q. Okay. And how long were you in the Navy?
15 A. Five years.
16 Q. Why don't you try to keep your voice up a little, maybe pull
17 the microphone a little bit closer. Sorry, you were in the Navy
18 for how long?
19 A. Five years.
20 Q. And when you left the Navy, what was your rank?
21 A. Lieutenant.
22 Q. And while you were in the Navy, were you a pilot during the
23 entire time?
24 A. Yes, I was.
25 Q. And could you describe for the ladies and gentlemen what you
1 did as a pilot in the Navy?
2 A. I was in the squadron VW-4, which was the Hurricane Hunters.
3 I flew WC-121 aircraft, which is the old Super G Constellation.
4 Q. Okay. And approximately how many hours of flight time did
5 you have while a member of the United States Navy?
6 A. 2,000.
7 Q. All right. Now, when you left the Navy in 1968, could you
8 tell us where you went to work?
9 A. I left -- I left the Navy in July of '68 and started at
10 Northwest Airlines August 8th, 1968.
11 Q. And where is Northwest Airlines located at?
12 A. Minneapolis, Minnesota.
13 Q. And when you started at Northwest Airlines, could you tell us
14 what was your job?
15 A. I started as a flight engineer on the 727 and progressed
16 along in the various seats of the aircraft that Northwest Airlines
17 was flying at the time.
18 Q. Rising to what rank at the end?
19 A. At the end I was certified as captain on the 727, the DC-10
20 and the 747-400.
21 Q. And you served as a pilot then for -- well, you left
22 Northwest when?
23 A. I lost my FAA medical in 1992, and I medically retired in
25 Q. Do you want to tell the folks why it is you had to take a
1 medical retirement?
2 A. I was diagnosed -- my last flight was Christmas Eve 1991,
3 then I was diagnosed in the first part of January with a brain
5 Q. And did you have to have brain surgery then as a result of
7 A. I had brain surgery.
8 Q. And that's the reason why you lost your medical clearance?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. During those approximately 24 years that you
11 worked for Northwest Airlines, approximately how many hours of
12 flight time did you have as a pilot there?
13 A. I never kept a logbook. I kept my pay sheets, which had the
14 time on them, but I had somewhere between 10- and 15,000 hours.
15 Q. Okay. Now, after your brain surgery and you healed, at some
16 point did you go back to work?
17 A. Yes. In 1998 I went up to a company, a subsidiary company of
18 Northwest Airlines called CrueSource, who did their contract
19 training at the NATCO Training Center in Eagan, Minnesota and
20 applied for a job, and they hired me.
21 Q. As what?
22 A. As a DC-10 pilot instructor.
23 Q. All right. Now, you talked about NATCO. Do you want to tell
24 the folks what NA TCO stands for?
25 A. NATCO is an acronym for the Northwest Airlines Aerospace
1 Training Center.
2 Q. Okay. Where is that located at?
3 A. Eagan, Minnesota.
4 Q. Is that where Northwest Airlines trains its own pilots?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, in addition to -- and they train them on simulators; is
7 that correct?
8 A. Simulators.
9 Q. Which we will talk about that in a minute.
10 But in addition to Northwest raining their own pilots,
11 do they sell time on their simulators to other companies?
12 A. Yes, they do.
13 Q. And was that that company you work for, CrueSource?
14 A. CrueSource did the contract training, the North -- that came
15 to Northwest Training Center for instruction on different
16 particular airplanes.
17 Q. All right. So basically you are teaching non-Northwest
18 pilots on the Northwest equipment; is that right?
19 A. That's right.
20 Q. And you worked for CrueSource for how long?
21 A. The Northwest contract business was bought by the Pan
22 American Flight Academy and the transition was in August or, I'm
23 sorry, about May of 2000.
24 Q. And when it was turned over to Pan Am Flight Academy, did you
25 join Pan Am as well?
1 A. Yes. We just all were on the second floor and we walked
2 downstairs from the north -- from the CrueSource offices to the
3 Pan Am offices.
4 Q. All right.
5 A. It was the same instructors.
6 Q. All right. So you did the same thing?
7 A. Same thing.
8 Q. Just different company then; is that right?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. Still working off the same Northwest simulators in the same
11 NATCO building; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And you worked at Pan Am from 2000, you said, what, the
14 spring of 2001?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Until when?
17 A. I left in October of 2004.
18 Q. Okay. If we could, with Mr. Wood's help, if we could show
19 the witness Exhibits MN-111, 112, and 113.
20 THE COURT: Is there any objection to those exhibits?
21 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. So they are all in.
23 (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-111, MN-112, and MN-113
24 were received in evidence.)
25 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. While Mr. Wood is looking
1 for them then, may we just display them on the screen then, Judge?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 BY MR. NOVAK:
4 Q. If you want to take a look at the television monitor next to
5 you, Mr. Prevost.
6 A. All right.
7 Q. Do you want to tell us what it is on Exhibit MN-11 that we're
8 looking at?
9 A. That's the sign that's out in front of the NATCO Training
11 Q. Okay. If we can go to Exhibit 112, please. What are we
12 looking at there, Mr. Prevost?
13 A. That's the NATCO Training Center.
14 Q. Okay. And then in Exhibit 113, if we can display that on the
15 screen as well.
16 A. That's the front door of NATCO.
17 Q. And is the Pan Am Flight Academy located within that
18 building; is that right?
19 A. When they bought the contract training, their offices were on
20 the first floor, as you walk in the front door to the right.
21 Q. If we can put that down, thank you.
22 Now, you told us, Mr. Prevost, that as the
23 subcontracting company which then -- which became Pan Am, that you
24 taught non-Northwest pilots how to fly; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.
1 Q. And could you tell us generally who your students were?
2 A. They were -- the major airlines all have their own training
3 centers and simulators, so these would be second and third-tier
4 and foreign carriers that did not have simulators and needed to
5 contract with somebody else who had them for the training for
6 their pilots.
7 Q. Okay. And would those second and third tier, the foreign
8 airlines, generally be the ones that are paying for that training?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. I gather this training is rather expensive; is that right?
11 A. I had an individual came through that I instructed on the
12 747-400 from KAL, a Russian, and he paid $29,000 for the type
14 Q. Now, what type of planes were you instructing on at the Pan
15 Am Academy?
16 A. At the Pan Am Academy when I was first hired by them I did
17 DC-10 training, but not at NATCO, down at the American Airlines
18 facility in Dallas. But when I started instructing at NATCO, I
19 only instructed on the 747-400.
20 Q. For those of us that are not familiar with jet airplanes, I
21 want you to -- actually, a couple of questions to see if you can
22 explain it to us in terms of the progression in terms of the more
23 advanced jets. And I want to start with a 727 airline. Can you
24 tell us basically chronologically when did that jet come into
1 A. That was late 1950s technology. And it was literally the
2 last airplane that you hand-flew. It did not have a flight
3 guidance system.
4 Q. Everything was manual; is that correct?
5 A. Everything was manual.
6 Q. If we were to analogize that to driving a car, that's kind of
7 like driving cars with standard transmissions; is that right?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Now, could you tell us the difference between a 727 and a
10 747-400 jet?
11 A. The 727 -- the 747-400 was a computer airplane. And it was
12 meant to be flown by the computer and it was meant to be flown by
13 a flight guidance system. It was not meant to be hand-flown.
14 Q. And when did that come around, basically?
15 A. I think that the 400 came on the line somewhere around 1988,
16 plus, maybe minus a year, but certainly 1988.
17 Q. All right.
18 MR. NOVAK: If we might, Your Honor, I would like to
19 show the witness Exhibit MN-105 if we could.
20 THE COURT: Any objection?
21 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. It is in.
23 (Government Exhibit No. MN-105 was received in
25 MR. NOVAK: May we bring it up on the screen then for
1 the witness?
2 THE COURT: Yes.
3 BY MR. NOVAK:
4 Q. Can you tell us what we're looking at there, Mr. Prevost?
5 A. That's the 747-400.
6 Q. All right. And now you were talking about the fact that it
7 is much more advanced in terms of computer-wise. Could you tell
8 us exactly what operates the flight guidance system in a 747-400?
9 A. There are two computers, in-flight computers. You program
10 the computer and the flight guidance system will take the program
11 that you input to the computer, which is a navigation program, and
12 if you choose, you can have the airplane fly once it is in the air
13 from where you leave to where you are going.
14 However, while you are in the air, if you choose to not
15 have the navigation computer engaged, then when you are going to
16 approach an airport, you can revert to the mode control panel and
17 put pilot inputs into the mode control panel, still part of the
18 computer flight guidance system, but then the pilot can input the
19 mode control panel and have the airplane do what he wants it to
21 Q. We're going to talk about the mode control panel here in a
22 second, but do pilots refer to the 747-400 as having the glass
24 A. It is glass, yes.
25 Q. Do you want to tell us what the meaning of that is?
1 A. The older airplanes have analog dials, we call them steam
2 gauges. And we have pointers. They have calibrated gauges that
3 have pointers that tell you what -- basically information you
4 receive, you receive from the pointer.
5 Glass is -- there are no steam gauges. There are CRT
6 screens, cathode ray tubes, and everything is presented on a
7 cathode ray tube, which is a television screen ostensibly. And
8 all the information is displayed digital and on the TV.
9 Q. So I guess the best way to analogize between the difference
10 between the plane, the 747-400 with the mode control panel, the
11 glass cockpit versus the old 727 is the difference between having
12 a digital watch and having the old dial face watch, basically; is
13 that right?
14 A. That's correct.
15 Q. Now, going back to the mode control panel for a second, if
16 Mr. Wood would be kind enough to get us a chart, the big chart,
18 THE COURT: Are you going to be moving MN-101 into
20 THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Is there any objection to that?
22 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection.
23 THE COURT: It is in.
24 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-101 was received in
1 MR. NOVAK: I am also going to be moving 102 and 103 as
2 well in a second.
3 THE COURT: Any objection to those?
4 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor.
5 THE COURT: Then they are in as well.
6 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-102, MN-103 were received
7 in evidence.)
8 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
9 BY MR. NOVAK:
10 Q. If we can start with MN-101. That's it, Mr. Wood. Thank
12 Mr. Prevost, could you see the exhibit MN-101 from where
13 you are sitting there?
14 A. Sort of.
15 THE COURT: You need to put it back maybe, Mr. Wood,
16 pull it back about six inches. There you go.
17 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Mr. Wood.
18 Q. First of all, Mr. Prevost, are we looking at the portion of
19 the 747-400 that depicts the mode control panel?
20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't think all the jurors can
21 see the exhibit. It has been to be turned better. Can everybody
22 in the box see it?
23 MR. NOVAK: Maybe we can hold it up behind Mr. Prevost
24 for a second, if Mr. Wood wouldn't mind doing that. I am only
25 going to use this for a second, Judge.
1 THE COURT: All right, okay.
2 BY MR. NOVAK:
3 Q. Could you just, again, Mr. Prevost, does that depict what a
4 mode control panel looks like in a 747-400?
5 A. The whole picture is called the forward instrument panel.
6 The mode control panel is up here on what we call the glare shield
7 panel. This is the mode control panel on the top.
8 Q. All right. And the mode control panel, does that allow a
9 pilot to basically fly the entire plane while it is in the air?
10 A. Yes, you never have to hand-fly it.
11 Q. Is there anything on the -- any action that you have to take
12 with a plane that you cannot take with a mode control panel?
13 A. You cannot make a takeoff on the automatics, and the only --
14 after the airplane is in the air, the only thing you have to do
15 manually is raise and lower the flaps and raise and lower the
17 Q. So basically if somebody knew how to operate the mode control
18 panel, once that plane is in the air, they could run that plane;
19 is that right?
20 A. That's correct, all the way to a landing and to a roll-out
21 and to a stop.
22 MR. NOVAK: If Mr. Wood could be kind enough to just
23 bring forward for a moment MN-102, one of the two bigger ones.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. While he is doing that, I will just ask you very briefly,
1 Mr. Prevost, are you also familiar with what a mode control panel
2 looks like in a 757-400?
3 A. Cursorily, except I know they are the same from -- I have
4 been in a 757 cockpit, and it is a Boeing airplane.
5 Q. I'm sorry, showing you Exhibit 102, is that, does that depict
6 among other things the mode control panel for a 757?
7 A. It is a two-engine airplane. And the fact that the CRT
8 screens are vertical, I would say that that's a 757.
9 Q. Okay. And would basically -- other than the screens being
10 one on top of each other instead of to the side, are the mode
11 control panels the same between the 757 and the 747?
12 A. Yes, right.
13 Q. And could we bring up the next exhibit, 103, the other chart.
14 And I will just ask you, Mr. Prevost, does that depict a mode
15 control panel for a 767-400?
16 A. It is a two-engine airplane and it has the vertical screens
17 and, yes, it looks like a 767.
18 Q. Okay. The mode control panel, that's the jiggers there in
19 the middle; is that right?
20 A. Yes, on the glare shield panel on the top of the forward
21 instrument panel.
22 Q. And is that essentially the same as the 747-400 as well?
23 A. There is only one button that's different, but it is the
25 Q. All right. We can put that down. Thank you, Mr. Wood, for
1 your help.
2 So, Mr. Prevost, if somebody could operate a mode
3 control panel for a 747-400, would they necessarily then be able
4 to operate the mode control panel for a 757 as well as a 767?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. All right. Now, going back to the training that you all do
7 out there in the Pan Am Academy, do you train your students on
8 actual planes or do you train them on simulators?
9 A. Simulators only.
10 Q. And why is it that you train the students on just simulators
11 and not airplanes?
12 A. When the simulator was invented, which I would guess
13 somewhere about the mid-'70s, we used to train on airplanes in the
14 early '70s and the '60s but you have to take the airplane out of
15 service. And that means it is not generating any revenue. And
16 also you are burning a lot of gas because the normal training
17 flight is four hours.
18 And so they stopped, when the simulator was invented,
19 they stopped training in the airplane because the simulator is the
20 exact feel of an airplane and you don't need to train in the
22 Q. So it is too expensive to fly the plane; is that right?
23 A. Too expensive.
24 Q. And if you can fly a simulator, can you fly the plane?
25 A. As a matter of fact, when you are trained in the simulator,
1 you walk from the simulator to the airplane and start work flying
2 an airplane.
3 Q. Somebody can get a job, never having stepped in the actual
4 airplane; is that right?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. All right. Now, in addition to the cost benefits that you
7 described for using the simulator, is there any advantages to you
8 as an instructor for using a simulator versus a real plane?
9 A. Yes, a lot.
10 Q. Can you describe to the jury what those advantages are?
11 A. Well, when you train in the airplane, you can't have these
12 guys going around the sky shutting engines down and setting them
13 on fire. People on the ground are to be protected.
14 And in the simulator, you can put an engine on fire, you
15 can do any emergency that can possibly happen to an airplane
16 without jeopardizing anybody's life or the safety of an airplane.
17 Q. You get your students in a worst case scenario, without
18 worrying about them getting killed; is that right?
19 A. You can crash the simulator and take your lunch box and go
21 Q. Okay. Now, approximately, the Pan Am Flight Academy using
22 the NATCO facility has access to a number of simulators; is that
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you want to tell the jury approximately how many
1 simulators that you-all would have access to?
2 A. I never counted them, but there would be somewhere between 15
3 and 35, 30 or 35 simulators.
4 Q. And is there a number of simulators for each of the various
5 types of planes, like so many for a 747-400, so many for a 757,
6 '67 and so forth?
7 A. Whatever airplane Northwest flew, they would have two
8 simulators for each of their type of airplanes.
9 Q. So you are familiar with the fact that they had at least two
10 simulators then for the 747-400?
11 A. There were two simulators, yes.
12 Q. And was one of those simulators known as simulator number 7?
13 A. Yes.
14 MR. NOVAK: Your Honor, I would move, I would ask
15 Mr. Wood to accumulate Exhibits 114 through 128, which I would
17 THE COURT: Any objection?
18 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
19 THE COURT: All right. These have no letters in front
20 of them?
21 MR. NOVAK: I'm sorry, MN-114 to 128.
22 THE COURT: Okay, MN-114 to 128 are all in.
23 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-144 to MN-128 were received
24 in evidence.)
25 BY MR. NOVAK:
1 Q. And I will ask you, before we start showing you the
2 photographs on the screen, Mr. Prevost, when we're talking about
3 simulators, are we talking about looking at a little video game
4 like on your television screen or are we talking about something
5 quite different?
6 A. No, these are million dollar pieces of engineering,
7 multi-million dollar. They are expensive and they absolutely
8 replicate an airplane in flight.
9 Q. And are they able to recreate the movement of a plane?
10 A. To exactness.
11 Q. So for those of us who are not too fond of flying, if I were
12 to get in that simulator and we were to start flying, would I get
13 motion sickness, perhaps?
14 A. You could. They can program turbulence.
15 Q. I would feel just as if I were in the plane; is that right?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. If we can start off with Exhibit MN-114 on the screen. We're
18 going to go through these series of photographs, Mr. Prevost, and
19 I am going to ask you if you would be kind enough to tell the jury
20 what it is that we're looking at on the screen?
21 A. That's a simulator.
22 Q. Okay. Is that the outside of simulator, particularly
23 simulator number 7?
24 A. It is. If on the screen is the same one I have in the little
25 notebook here.
1 Q. You can take my word for it that we're not going to trick
2 you. We're going to put the real photos up there.
3 A. Okay, that's number 7.
4 Q. All right. And to the next exhibit, MN-115.
5 A. That's the simulator and the depiction of the hydraulic
6 jacks, which provide the motion that you would feel inside the
7 simulator, simulating flight.
8 Q. And MN-116?
9 A. That's a forward picture of the simulator. And it looks,
10 since it is tilted, it is in what we call on-motion. It is up on
11 its jacks.
12 Q. Okay. MN-117?
13 A. That's the ramp that goes into the simulator.
14 Q. MN-118?
15 A. As you walk into the simulator down the ramp, the access
16 ramp, you are looking inside at the cockpit.
17 Q. The next one, MN-118, I believe?
18 A. You have walked through the door and now you are inside the
19 simulator, and that's the 747-400 cockpit.
20 Q. Now, could you tell us is there any difference between that
21 cockpit and what a real 747-400 cockpit would look like?
22 A. The difference is the TV screen on the left is the instructor
23 panel where he puts in malfunctions and abnormals and anomalies
24 and programs the training flight. In a real 747-400, that would
25 not be there, and there would be what they call a first observer
1 seat behind the captain's chair. And behind that seat there would
2 be a second observer's seat on the left side of the airplane.
3 Q. Okay. And then 120?
4 A. That's the depiction of a 747-400 control station.
5 Q. And where is that mode control panel that you were talking
7 A. That's on the glare shield above the CRT screens.
8 Q. Okay. MN-121? What are we looking at here? You know, you
9 can look at the screen. It might be easier.
10 A. Okay. That's the simulator instructor's panel.
11 Q. MN-122?
12 A. Those are -- that is a 747-400 manual.
13 Q. And is that manual kept within the simulator?
14 A. Yes. There is always in the airplane and in the simulator,
15 there is always a current set of books, manuals.
16 Q. So that would be, if we were flying in a real 747-400, would
17 that, would the plane also have one of those as well?
18 A. That book would be there.
19 Q. Okay. The next exhibit is MN-123. What are we looking at
20 with all those buttons there?
21 A. That's the circuit breaker panel on the, behind the pilot
22 overhead panel. And the circuit breaker panel is just like
23 circuit breakers in your house. If there is an electrical
24 malfunction, they trip.
25 Q. Exhibit MN-124?
1 A. That's the captain's control column on the left side, left
2 seat of the airplane.
3 Q. MN-125?
4 A. That's a CDU, which is an acronym for computer display unit.
5 That's the keypad that programs the flight computer.
6 Q. MN-126?
7 A. That's the mode control panel.
8 Q. Right there on the dash, basically; is that right?
9 A. Yes, the top part of the picture is the pilot overhead.
10 Q. Okay. 127, MN-127, what is that a photo of?
11 A. That's the forward wind screen. And in a simulator it is a
12 TV screen and actually it shows if you are flying, whatever
13 airport you are flying to, it will give you a depiction of the
14 runway and buildings and topography around the airport, kind of
15 computer -- it is sort of a computer presentation but it is
16 accurate to the airport that you are -- that's being depicted.
17 Q. So, for example, in a photograph MN-128 then, if we were
18 sitting in the pilot's chair and looking out the window, so to
19 speak, we would see some kind of generated thing like this; is
20 that right?
21 A. Well, that's the overrun, and before the takeoff point of a
22 runway, and that's a runway.
23 Q. Okay. All right. We can put the photos down and we can move
25 Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost. Does the
1 simulators have to be certified in any fashion?
2 A. The FAA inspects them once a year.
3 Q. And do they have to get certified for you-all to use them?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And what about you as an instructor, do you have to get
6 certified in any fashion by the FAA?
7 A. I have to take a -- depending on the flight schools that I'm
8 working for, I may have one check ride a year or two check rides a
9 year, one every six months or yearly, depending on how the flight
10 school is certificated.
11 Q. Now, could you tell us what exactly your goal is as an
12 instructor in relation to your students and describe for us the
13 level of the students that you have there?
14 A. Well, the students that come to CrueSource or Pan Am Flight
15 Academy usually have thousands of hours. They are looking to get
16 a better job or they are looking to upgrade within the company
17 that they are working for. And this means usually they have come
18 to your flight school to learn how to fly a bigger airplane
19 because there would be more money.
20 Q. So you are saying normally the students you have have
21 thousands of hours of student training or flight training?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. And in general they are already professsional pilots when
24 they get there; is that right?
25 A. They are pilots.
1 Q. Did you ever have anyone, before you had contact with
2 Mr. Moussaoui, that had 55 hours of flight training?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And what's the lowest number of hours of training that you
5 had for any of your previous students?
6 A. Actually the lowest number that I can remember is a fellow
7 that came through and he had 600 hours of multi-engine. He
8 probably had a lot more hours of single-engine, but his -- the 600
9 hours of multi-engine was the lowest I ever had.
10 Q. And are you training them towards any type of FAA testing?
11 A. Yes. The end result of the training is they take an FAA
12 check ride, and if they pass the check ride, they get certificated
13 by the FAA to fly whatever airplane. That means they are
14 qualified to fly in that type of airplane.
15 Q. Is there any significance or consequence, maybe, to the
16 student if he fails his check ride?
17 A. He gets what's called a pink slip, and he loses his job. If
18 he can't -- he may be able to revert back to a previous airplane
19 and fly that, but he cannot fly the airplane that he is, the money
20 was spent to train him on.
21 Q. Let me ask you this: Is there any strike against the
22 instructor or any consequence to the instructor if one of your
23 students were to fail the FAA test?
24 A. There is no monetary penalty towards the instructor, but if
25 your students start failing check rides one after the other,
1 nobody would use the flight academy of which you were the
3 Q. So you all take -- have you ever had a student fail, by the
5 A. I have never had a student fail a check ride.
6 Q. So you take your training of your students pretty seriously
8 A. Extremely.
9 Q. Now, directing your attention to August of 2001, did you have
10 an occasion to serve as an instructor for Zacarias Moussaoui?
11 A. I was his ground school instructor.
12 Q. Do you recognize him in this courtroom?
13 A. Yes, that's --
14 Q. Could you point to him?
15 A. That's Zacarias there. I know him as Zac.
16 Q. Indicating for the record that Mr. Prevost has identified the
17 defendant, please.
18 THE COURT: Any objection?
19 MR. TROCCOLI: No, Your Honor, we will stipulate to
21 THE COURT: All right. The record will so reflect.
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. Let me ask you this, Mr. Prevost, looking at Mr. Moussaoui,
24 did he look like that back when he showed up at the Pan Am Flight
1 A. He had a beard and a mustache and less facial hair, but
2 that's Zac.
3 Q. Okay. If we can put on the screen exhibit number or if we
4 can show the witness Exhibit Number GX-2, please.
5 THE COURT: Any objection?
6 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection,.
7 THE COURT: All right. It is in.
8 (Government's Exhibit No. GX-2 was received in
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Can we bring it up on the screen then perhaps.
12 Can you tell us, Mr. Prevost, is that what Mr. Moussaoui
13 looked like when you met him?
14 A. Yeah, he had a ball hat on, and I don't think I ever saw him
15 without his ball hat on.
16 Q. You mean a baseball cap?
17 A. A baseball cap.
18 Q. You never saw him without a baseball cap?
19 A. I don't think so. I can't recall that I did.
20 Q. Okay. Could you tell us who asked you to teach
21 Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. Alan McHale.
23 Q. Okay. And who is Alan McHale?
24 A. He was second in command at the Pan Am Flight Academy under
25 John Rosengrin.
1 Q. And what did Mr. McHale tell you about Mr. Moussaoui when he
2 asked you to train him?
3 A. He said: We have a student coming through that has 55 hours
4 only of flight time and he has never solo'd an airplane and we
5 want you to -- we want you to be his instructor.
6 Q. All right. Well, having never had a student under 600 hours
7 before, did you think that was a little bit unusual?
8 A. I personally thought this was a guy who had too much money,
9 and he was just doing this as a -- like people with money go do
10 major league baseball training camps and wear the uniform. And I
11 thought that he was just fulfilling a dream to play on it.
12 Q. All right. Did you learn if he had flown previously on a
13 Cessna airplane?
14 A. Yes, a single engine airplane.
15 Q. If we can show -- you are familiar with Cessnas; is that
17 A. Only that I would -- if somebody asked me what kind of Cessna
18 is that, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but if somebody said that
19 was a Cessna, if it is a single engine, I would say probably.
20 Q. All right. Well, let's show you Exhibit MN-108 if we could
21 show him that.
22 THE COURT: Any objection to 108?
23 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right, it is in.
25 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-108 was received in
2 BY MR. NOVAK:
3 Q. Maybe I could be the person to say: Does that look like a
5 A. That looks like every Cessna I have ever seen.
6 Q. All right. And comparing that Cessna to the 747-400 -- maybe
7 if we can return to the screen MN-105 -- are those very different
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Do you want to tell the jurors -- obviously we can look and
11 see one is a jet and one is not, but can you tell us basically
12 what the big difference is?
13 A. The Cessna, of course, you have to hand-fly. And it is --
14 there is more -- a Cessna is actually flying, when you fly a jumbo
15 jet, why, you do things that are -- let me think of the word --
16 that there is statistics that tells you how the airplane would fly
17 and you follow those numbers like when you take off, you rotate to
18 12 degrees because you know all of the dispatchers have predicted
19 because of the weight, that's the pitch angle that you rotate and
20 the airplane will fly at that.
21 A Cessna, you fly it, it flies off the runway itself.
22 The 747-400, you have to know all the numbers and all of the go-to
23 characteristics that the airplane will fly at before you even go
24 down the runway.
25 Q. Okay. If we can put on the screen Exhibit FO-5521.57 that we
1 have previously introduced, which refers to an e-mail that was
2 sent from Mr. Moussaoui to Mr. McHale. And I am going to ask you
3 to take a look at that e-mail, Mr. Prevost.
4 I gather you didn't get a copy of this e-mail; is that
6 A. No, I never saw it.
7 Q. But let me ask you this: Have any of your students ever
8 asked which chapters of a manual that they should actually look at
9 before they come to see you?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Should somebody that actually knows how to fly a plane, would
12 they know where to look in the book?
13 MR. TROCCOLI: Objection, Your Honor, as to "should
14 have." It is speculative.
15 MR. NOVAK: I will just reword it.
16 THE COURT: Reword the question.
17 BY MR. NOVAK:
18 Q. In your experience over the, well, first 24 years as a pilot
19 and all your years as a flight instructor, do pilots training at
20 the level that you are instructing know where to look in the book?
21 A. Yes, they know where to start.
22 Q. Let's talk about the books here for a second. If I could
23 show, we can show the witness Exhibit MN-508.1 and 508.2, which
24 are the red books there, Mr. Wood.
25 THE COURT: Any objection to those going in?
1 MR. TROCCOLI: No objection, Your Honor.
2 THE COURT: All right. So 508.1 and .2 are both in.
3 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-508.1 and MN-508.2 were
4 received in evidence.)
5 BY MR. NOVAK:
6 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what MN-508.1 is?
7 A. Okay. This is volume 1 out of three volumes. Volume 1 is
8 the aircraft operating manual. It tells you the profiles for the
9 various maneuvers that you do with an airplane like taking off and
10 landing, climbing to altitude.
11 Q. Does it tell you how all the systems work?
12 A. This is not a systems manual. The system manual is volume 2.
13 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. Can we flip that and go to volume 1,
15 A. Okay. This is volume 2. This is --
16 Q. I'll tell you what. Let's go back and let's start all over
17 again. Let's start with volume 1.
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Do you have volume 1 there?
20 A. Yes, yes, I do.
21 Q. What is in volume 1?
22 A. Procedures.
23 Q. Okay. And to tell you what?
24 A. How to fly the airplane.
25 Q. Okay. And what is in volume 2?
1 A. Systems.
2 Q. Okay. And what is contained there?
3 A. There are basically four major systems on an airplane;
4 electronic, electrical, hydraulics, fuel, and pneumatics. And
5 then there are subsystems off the various systems, hydraulics run
6 the landing gear, the flight controls, the pneumatics run the
7 air-conditioning and pressurization, so it is systems and
8 subsystems are the mechanical makeup of the airplane.
9 Q. Okay. And those books, those are the kind of books that were
10 in that picture in the simulator that was sitting on the shelf
12 A. That's right.
13 Q. We can put those aside.
14 Now, Mr. Prevost, going back to the conversation you had
15 with Mr. McHale when he asked you to train Mr. Moussaoui and when
16 he told you how many hours he had, did you agree to train
17 Mr. Moussaoui?
18 A. I did.
19 Q. Could you tell us why it is that you agreed to do that
20 since --
21 A. I can tell you. I needed the money.
22 Q. When you say you needed the money, are you there as a
23 contract employee?
24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And do you actually live in the same state as the Pan Am
2 A. No.
3 Q. And do you fly in for the training and fly back to the state
4 that you live in?
5 A. In those days they actually would get a motel for the
6 instructors who flew in and pay per diem, and so I would live in a
7 motel when I was there doing an assignment.
8 Q. Okay. Now, by the way, did you have any concerns about the
9 fact that this student, Mr. Moussaoui, was not gearing his
10 training towards something that would have FAA review of at some
12 A. No.
13 Q. Do generally your students try to get some kind of FAA
14 certification, though?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Now, if we can show the witness the schedule that we showed
17 earlier, Exhibit MN-617.3. We can just put it on the screen
18 because it has already been introduced. Thank you.
19 Now, do you recognize MN-617.3 as a Pan Am schedule for
20 Mr. Moussaoui?
21 A. That's the format that the schedules come out. Now, that was
22 printed on August 13th. I had one, I think, that was earlier,
23 because as I see this, it was -- I showed up at 10:00 o'clock
24 because I was told that I was to meet him at 10:00 o'clock on
25 Monday morning.
1 MR. NOVAK: Okay.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, speaking of time, it is 11:00
3 o'clock, so we will take the morning break until 11:20.
4 (Recess at 11:00 a.m., until 11:20 a.m.)
5 (Defendant and Jury in.)
6 MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
7 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
8 BY MR. NOVAK
9 Q. I think we had the schedule up on the screen here, MN-617.3.
10 Mr. Prevost, I see on the schedule that you were slated to have
11 contact with Mr. Moussaoui on Monday, August 13, and on Tuesday,
12 August 14; is that correct?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. And you were supposed to give him a four-hour lecture on each
15 day; is that right?
16 A. It was -- I thought that I was going to have four hours or
17 maybe three in the morning, but certainly four in the afternoon.
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. Of each day.
20 Q. I'm sorry?
21 A. Of each day.
22 Q. Okay. And could you tell us what you intended to teach him
23 on those two days?
24 A. I was really at sea.I didn't know what I was going to do,
25 because for somebody to come in with that type of lack of
1 knowledge about aircraft and aircraft systems, I knew I was in for
2 a difficult time, and I didn't know what I was going to do.
3 Q. Okay. Did you think about trying to do a ground school
4 instruction to the defendant?
5 A. Would you say that one again, please?
6 Q. Okay. Ground school. Do you teach ground school?
7 A. I was going to teach him ground school.
8 Q. Okay. Could you tell the folks --
9 MR. NOVAK: And we could put the schedule down off the
10 screen there, Gerard, if you would?
11 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what ground school instruction
13 A. Ground school for airline people to come through is basically
14 you teach systems, aircraft systems that are particular to the
15 aircraft that they're going to learn how to fly.
16 Q. Okay. Now, I want to bring you to August 13. In the
17 morning, is that when you first met the defendant, Mr. Moussaoui?
18 A. It is.
19 Q. And could you tell us about what time it was that you first
20 met Mr. Moussaoui?
21 A. I went out to NATCO at, was there at probably ten in the
22 morning, probably a little earlier. He was not there yet. NATCO,
23 the classrooms that Pan Am used were in a remote building, so I
24 thought that he possibly might have been at the remote building.
25 I can't remember whether I went over to the remote classroom
1 building or not, but I first met Zac back at NATCO somewhere
2 around 10:30.
3 Q. And when you met Zac, was he alone, or was he with someone
5 A. He was alone.
6 Q. Okay. Could you tell the folks how it was that he was
8 A. He had on casual attire. He had on, like, Dockers-type
9 trousers that were not ironed. They weren't khaki-colored. They
10 were some darker-type color. He had on a sneaker-type shoe. He
11 had on a polo shirt and a ball cap.
12 Q. Okay. And did he look like that photo that I showed you on
13 the screen earlier today?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Absent -- but he had a baseball cap; is that right?
16 A. That's right.
17 Q. Now, anything about him that made you think he was a
18 terrorist when you saw him?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Did he introduce himself to you?
21 A. I think -- usually when I run into my students, I introduce
22 myself, and I, I'm sure -- I went over and probably said: I'm
23 Clancy Prevost. I'm your instructor. Are you my student?
24 Because I didn't know his name. Nobody knew his name.
25 Q. Okay. Did he tell you at that time he was an al Qaeda
1 terrorist here to fly planes into buildings?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Okay. What did he tell you that he did for a living? Did
4 you ask him?
5 A. I did ask him. He said he was a businessman from London. I
6 said: What is your business?
7 He said: I'm in the import/export business.
8 And I asked him who was taking care of his business
9 while he was gone. He said his family.
10 Q. Okay. Did he tell you where he lived?
11 A. He said he lived in London, he was raised in France, and he
12 had a French passport and a Moroccan passport.
13 Q. Did you test his French out there a little bit?
14 A. We were walking out of the building, and I said -- I don't
15 know why I did it -- I said: Je parle francais un petit peux.
16 And he launched into, of course, fluent French, and I
17 said: Well, that's enough of that.
19 A. And I figured he speaks French; I don't.
20 Q. All right. So after those -- going back to the discussion
21 that he had about the fact that he was involved in his family
22 business, did he tell you how long -- strike that.
23 Did you ask him who was minding the shop while he was
25 A. I did ask him that. I said: Well, who's taking care of your
2 He said: Family.
3 Q. All right. Did he tell you if he had any time concerns about
4 how long he could be away as a result of that family business?
5 A. He did not tell me.
6 Q. Okay. Did he have any discussions with you on, about how
7 long his family --
8 A. I'll -- let me add to that. He did mention that I have to --
9 I'm going to have to get back at some point soon.
10 Q. Back to the family business?
11 A. Because of the family -- if that would be a time constraint.
12 He mentioned that he would have to return soon.
13 Q. Okay. Now, so you meet Mr. Moussaoui, and what do you do
14 with him?
15 A. Well, I said: Let's go over to the classroom building, and I
16 drew out the computer disk for the PowerPoint program.
17 Q. And is that for the ground school training?
18 A. That's for the ground school training.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. And we went over to the classroom building. And, as usual,
21 nothing was set up, so I spent some time getting the PowerPoint
22 projector and the screen set up, and actually one of the
23 secretaries was there and giving him his orientation while I was
24 trying to set up the, the PowerPoint, and we -- so that took about
25 a half-hour, I would say.
1 Q. Okay. After you got set up, did you start running the
2 PowerPoint presentation with him for ground school?
3 A. I did.
4 Q. Could you tell us -- tell the folks how that went.
5 A. Well, there were two things that were wrong. The Pan Am
6 computer disk was a -- it was a computer program on a disk, but it
7 also required an interactive program that was a software part of
8 that, and they didn't own the interactive program, and so I had
9 the computer disk, and it didn't have the audio presentation, and
10 it didn't have the interactive, which would be questions and
11 answers, and so I'm kind of freelancing about the airplane from
12 the PowerPoint, and we were in -- I could tell we were in trouble
13 right away on this in regards to trying to get anything across
14 that was meaningful.
15 Q. Now, when you say you were having problems, was it because he
16 was not a smart person or because he lacked the experience?
17 A. He had no frame of reference whatsoever of a commercial
19 Q. So you're referring to the experience part; is that right?
20 A. Experience, yes.
21 Q. Okay. And so how long did you try that ground school there
22 with him?
23 A. We talked kind of -- it wasn't so much that I made a formal
24 presentation, but I knew I was not going to accomplish anything,
25 and I'd say about after 15 minutes, I said: Let's go to lunch.
1 Q. Okay. And so did you go to lunch with him?
2 A. We did.
3 Q. Okay. Where did you take him to lunch?
4 A. The NATCO Training Center has a cafeteria on the second floor
5 that's run by Marriott, and we went over there.
6 Q. Okay. How long were you at that lunch?
7 A. I was trying to waste time, and we were there a long time.
8 I'm going to say two hours minimum.
9 Q. All right. Trying to waste time because of why?
10 A. I'm in trouble. Of course, he's a customer, and you're
11 trying to not have him going along on this and going, talking to
12 your supervisors and say: This is bogus, and so I tried to waste
13 as much time as I could because I knew that whenever we went back
14 to the classroom, that I'm not sure if anything meaningful was
15 ever going to be able to happen.
16 Q. Okay. So when you -- you spent a couple hours with him at
17 lunch. What did you-all talk about?
18 A. Well, it's fun up there. All the pilots come in. And I know
19 a lot of the guys because they're all Northwest guys coming in and
20 out, and some of the contract people. So we got our food, stood
21 in the cafeteria line, and that takes 20 minutes, and I was glad.
22 And then we went over and sat at a table, and the guys, we were
23 just hanging out with the guys.
24 Q. Okay. How was your conversation with Mr. Moussaoui? Did he
25 speak like a normal human being?
1 A. Oh, yeah.
2 Q. Anything that made you believe he was crazy or anything like
4 A. No, no.
5 Q. Okay. And what did you-all talk about? Anything of
7 A. Oh, I can't think of anything specific other than we seemed
8 to be getting along, and maybe airplanes a little bit and people
9 would come up, interrupt us, and say hello, and I'd be glad to see
10 them, but there was -- I don't think there was any specific
11 subject that they dwelled on.
12 Q. After that, did you return back to the classroom with him?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. All right. And when you got back to the classroom, did you
15 have any conversation about the doors on an airplane?
16 A. We got back to the classroom, and I think probably I put up
17 on the screen -- as a matter of fact, I know I put up on the
18 screen a mode control panel, and I was mentioning to Zac that this
19 is the only thing that's going to be meaningful to you in regards
20 to your training here, because you're never going to fly an
21 airliner for a carrier, and so you really don't care about the
22 systems, but to do what you want to do, you're going to have to
23 understand this mode control panel, so I put the mode control
24 panel up on the screen.
25 Q. What did he tell you that he wanted to do?
1 A. I asked him that. I said: What is your goal on this? What
2 would you like to do?
3 He said: I would like to fly a 747 from Heathrow to
4 Kennedy across the North Atlantic.
5 Q. Did you tell him you could do that?
6 A. I said you could do that in the simulator. You'll be able to
7 do that.
8 Q. Was that indeed true that you could have taught him to do
9 that with the mode control panel?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Is it fair to say that once somebody learns that computer,
12 they're good to go in terms of flying that plane?
13 A. They could do it. If they went from the simulator right to
14 an airplane and used the knowledge that they got from whatever
15 simulator rides that he had paid for, he could probably have a
16 good working knowledge. As a week or a month passed, he would
17 have less and less the more further he got away from it.
18 The answer to your question is yes. If you know how to
19 work the mode control panel, you know how to fly a 747-400.
20 Q. You thought you could teach him how to work that mode control
21 panel. Is that right?
22 A. I was not going to be his simulator instructor, but I know
23 that fellow, and yes, you can teach that, and he would get it.
24 Q. Okay. And that's what you told him; is that right?
25 A. I did.
1 Q. Okay. Now, I interrupted you. You were telling a story
2 about leading to the doors. Can you tell us about the doors?
3 A. We were in there and we had gone over maybe the mode control
4 panel for a while, and it might be now around 3:30 or somewhere
5 around there, and probably had discussed that for a half-hour, and
6 I said: Well, Zac, this is what's going to happen. I said:
7 You're going to be on a flight, and the pilots are going to get a
8 bad meal, and they're going to be incapacitated, and the flight
9 attendant is going to come through the airplane, and say does
10 anybody know how to fly a 747? And you can raise your hand.
11 And he said: I would rather take a parachute and jump
12 out the door.
13 Q. Okay. And what was your response to that?
14 A. I said: Well, you can't get the doors open in flight.
15 They're plugged doors, and if the airplane is pressurized, it's
16 impossible to open them. And then I said: As a matter of fact,
17 there was a hajj charter in the Middle East --
18 Q. What's a hajj charter?
19 A. It's -- it's during Ramadan, I guess pilgrims go to Mecca,
20 and they call it the hajj. And a lot of carriers around the
21 world, it's a big business thing to carry the pilgrims to Mecca,
22 and they call those hajj charters.
23 Q. Go ahead. I'm sorry, I interrupted you while you were
24 telling your story.
25 A. I said: There was a hajj charter, there was a Lockheed 1011,
1 and they were on a runway and somebody caught the airplane on
2 fire, the cabin on fire, caught on fire, and the flight engineer
3 did not depressurize the airplane, and they all burned to death.
4 Even though they were on the ground, they all burned to death. So
5 I said you can't even get out of a -- open the door on the ground
6 if it's pressurized.
7 And I said: Hajj, Ramadan, I said, what is that? I
8 said: Are you Muslim?
9 He said: I am nothing.
10 Q. You changed your tone a little bit. Did he also change his
12 A. Yeah. It was kind of like -- it was significantly different
13 to normal conversation so that I caught it, and I said: Well, I
14 thought, I'm not going to bring that up anymore. And I said:
15 Well, I'm nothing, either, and went on.
16 Q. Okay. Did that --
17 A. But -- okay.
18 Q. Go on. No, tell us the "but." That's what we want to hear.
19 A. Man, right then I wanted to get out of that classroom
20 building, because I don't know -- you have to get an idea
21 sometime, and I don't know whether the fact that he said: I am
22 nothing, or I started -- made the connection, Muslim, we don't
23 know anything about it, but I wanted to get out of that classroom
24 and call Alan McHale and say: Should we be doing this?
25 Q. Okay.
1 A. Do we know what we're doing here?
2 And that's what we did.
3 Q. You were concerned about his legitimacy; is that right?
4 A. That's when it hit me, that wait a minute, should we be doing
6 Q. Okay. So did you conclude then your session with
7 Mr. Moussaoui?
8 A. I did. I said: Hey, let's call it a day and take the rest
9 of the day off, and I'll meet you tomorrow.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. And I went back to my motel.
12 Q. Okay. Now, did you -- you said that you were concerned about
13 what it is that you-all were doing. Did you try to contact Alan
14 McHale, the No. 2 guy there?
15 A. As soon as I got back to my motel, I called over to the
16 customer service desk and tried to be -- tried to get ahold of
17 Alan, and he was in a meeting and wasn't available, but I did get
18 ahold of one of the schedulers, Liz; I can't think of her last
20 Q. Okay. And did you leave a message?
21 A. I did. I said: "Liz, tell Alan this: Tell Alan that I said
22 should we be doing this? We don't know anything about this guy,
23 and we're teaching somebody how to throw the switches on a 747,
24 and maybe we shouldn't be doing this. And anyway, that's my
1 And then she said: Okay. I'll give it to him.
2 And I hung up.
3 Q. Now, had you planned with Mr. Moussaoui to see him again the
4 next morning, the 14th, at 10:00 in the morning?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. So because you were meeting Mr. Moussaoui at 10:00, did you
7 make arrangements to go see Mr. McHale himself in person before
9 A. Yeah. I went over there early.
10 Q. Okay. About what time was it that you saw Mr. McHale?
11 A. I think about 9:00.
12 Q. And do you want to tell us what happened when you went over
14 A. I walked up to the customer service desk, and Alan, you could
15 see his office behind and off to the right, and I saw him in
16 there, I said: Hey, Alan, did you get my message?
17 And he said -- I said: Should we be doing this? Do we
18 know what we're doing here?
19 And he said: He paid the money. We don't care.
20 Q. Okay. And did you just take that answer, or did you push a
21 little bit?
22 A. I said: We'll care when there's a hijacking and he knows how
23 to throw all the switches and put them in the right position and
24 all the lawsuits starts coming in when they figure out we taught
25 him how to do this." And I said: Then we'll care.
1 Q. So were you continuing to be aggressive with the supervisor
2 there about this?
3 A. That was the end of -- he was going to a meeting over at the
4 classroom site, a supervisors' meeting.
5 Q. All right. Now, did you ultimately head over towards that
6 supervisors' meeting and come into contact with a fellow by the
7 name of Jerry Liddell (phonetic)?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. And who's Jerry Liddell?
10 A. Jerry Liddell is for -- I'm not sure what his actual title
11 was, but he would be like the comptroller, who would send out the
12 bills --
13 Q. He's the money guy?
14 A. Receive the money, pay the money, give the change. He was
15 the money guy.
16 Q. All right. Did you talk to the money guy about
17 Mr. Moussaoui?
18 A. I went into the supervisors' meeting first. They were all in
19 there, and I said: Hey, you guys, I think we should call the FBI
20 and get a background check. I said: If there's nothing wrong
21 with him, I said, he'll never even know he's been checked, but, I
22 said, if there is, then at least we've covered our six.
23 So then I walked out of the supervisors' meeting, and I
24 saw Jerry walking along over by a couple of the classrooms, and I
25 went over to him and I said: Jerry, how did he pay for his
2 And he said: Cash.
3 I said: Like what? Like a check or a credit card?
4 And he said: $100 bills.
5 Q. And what did that mean to you?
6 A. I'm shaking my head. Now I'm -- now I'm upset, and this is
7 not right. And so I went back to the supervisor meeting and:
8 Hey, you guys, you know how he paid for this training? I said:
9 With hundred dollar bills. If he tried to get a ticket over at
10 the airport like this, they'd have him -- they'd be questioning
11 him. So I said: I think we should call the FBI.
12 Q. All right. Now, while this is going on, while you're
13 pressing upon this to the supervisors, does Mr. Moussaoui then
14 show up?
15 A. He came along, I would say, I walked -- Alan said to me:
16 Well, you call Miami and ask them.
17 I said: Okay.
18 Q. What's Miami?
19 A. The home office.
20 Q. Okay. Pan Am has offices all around the country; is that
22 A. The only ones I know are Miami and Minnesota.
23 Q. All right. I'll call that around the country then. Just
24 those two spots?
25 A. Yeah.
1 Q. So you wanted to call the headquarters?
2 A. I said: "Okay. I'll call.
3 He said: No, no, we'll call.
4 Q. To get guidance about what to do?
5 A. They are the higher-ups, so not guidance, but at least tell
6 them what we're doing.
7 Q. Okay. Now, let's go back into -- did you finish that
8 conversation with Mr. McHale or not?
9 A. Yes. When he said that, I left the instructor meeting, and I
10 went back in one more time as they were busting up and I knew I
11 wasn't interrupting anything, and I said, you know, I'm standing
12 here and telling you I think we should do this, or something like
13 that. And then Moussaoui came in the classroom building.
14 Q. And what did you do with Mr. Moussaoui on the 14th then?
15 A. We went back to the classroom building, and I put on the
16 screen the mode control panel, and we talked about the mode
17 control panel. I did not have the interactive software that went
18 with it. So talked about the mode control panel. It's so simple
19 that there's not a lot of time that you could spend on that, and I
20 said: Well, let's go to lunch.
21 Q. Okay.
23 Q. You said it's so simple, so simple in terms of the operating?
24 A. Yes. It really has a friendly logic.
25 Q. Okay. And so once you go for lunch No. 2, how long did you
1 go this time?
2 A. Man, I was going to stay there as long as I could stay,
3 because we -- and we were getting along.
4 Q. Was he personable?
5 A. Very.
6 Q. Okay. He talked to you the whole time?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. Did he attack you in any fashion or anything like
10 A. Not even.
11 Q. You said he was -- other than the other issues --
12 A. A pretty genial guy.
13 Q. Okay. So you go to lunch. What happens at lunch?
14 A. We're hanging out with the guys again and having our lunch,
15 and there's lots of people around, and it's -- there's an energy
16 there, and it's kind of fun hanging out there, and we were
17 probably there a couple hours.
18 Q. Could you tell the jurors what a LOFT is?
19 A. A LOFT is, the letters are an acronym for line -- line
20 orientated flight training, line operational flight training.
21 Q. Okay. And a LOFT, what is it?
22 A. It's a -- it's an airline trip.
23 Q. Okay.
24 A. You simulate it in a simulator, and it's a simulation of a
25 normal airplane trip.
1 Q. And do you do that with your students?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And do you -- is that kind of near the end of their training,
4 right before they're done?
5 A. That is the end of their training. That's after their check
6 ride and before they leave. That's the last thing they do.
7 They've already passed their check ride. They do the LOFT, and
8 then they, the FAA gives them their ticket, and it's a temporary,
9 but, I mean, then they're done.
10 Q. Okay.
11 A. That's the last thing.
12 Q. Did you have a LOFT training set for later that day?
13 A. I did.
14 Q. And was that with a student by the name of Salim Esiktas?
15 A. It was.
16 MR. NOVAK: May I spell that for the record? Your
17 Honor, it's S-a-l-i-m, last name E-s-i-k-t-a-s.
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. And when was it that you were supposed to have that LOFT trip
20 with Mr. Esiktas?
21 A. Six -- there are four hours, and 6:00 his was scheduled for.
22 Q. Okay. And he was going to be the pilot; is that right?
23 A. Yes, he was going to be the pilot, and they were going to
24 have a full crew, which in the case of the 400 is just one other
25 guy, who was going to sit in the right seat and support his LOFT.
1 Q. By the way, let's talk about the crew there, just for one
2 second, to digress. A full crew on a normal 747-400 includes how
3 many people?
4 A. If the flight is a short flight, it's two people.
5 Q. The captain and the copilot?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And, and is there a difference in terms of the number of crew
8 that you needed on a 747-400 versus the old 727, the older one?
9 A. Well, the 727 and a 747, what we'll call the classic is a
10 three-man crew: a captain, copilot, and flight engineer.
11 Q. Is it you need the less person because the benefits of the
12 automation, the computers there basically do everything?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Okay. So -- I'm sorry, so who was going to be the copilot on
15 that LOFT trip with Mr. Esiktas?
16 A. An Atlas Air Cargo captain from their Stansted, England
17 operation who was -- had passed his check ride or was in training.
18 His last name is -- Graham was his name. I can't remember whether
19 it was his first or last.
20 Q. We'll stick with Mr. Graham.
21 So you had scheduled that night this LOFT flight. Was
22 it in simulator No. 7, the one I showed you the photo of earlier?
23 A. It was, yes.
24 Q. That simulator No. 7, by the way, was the same simulator that
25 Mr. Moussaoui was to be trained on; is that right?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Okay. And Mr. Esiktas was to pilot this plane in a simulated
3 flight from where to where?
4 A. The LOFT was an airplane trip from San Francisco to Los
5 Angeles for the first two hours, and we -- the first two hours is
6 a normal flight with no emergencies and no abnormalities.
7 Q. Okay. What's the second part of the flight? Do you kind of
8 mix them up a little bit?
9 A. The second two hours, they take off from someplace to go to
10 another place. In this case, they were going to take off from Los
11 Angeles International and fly to Honolulu, and that's the second
12 two hours.
13 Q. Okay. And do you program in some emergencies for them to see
14 how they react, just to get them ready?
15 A. Yes. The second half, you put in some emergencies to test
16 their judgment and to see how they fly the airplane and deal with
17 the emergencies en route.
18 Q. Now, did you have any discussions about this LOFT trip that
19 you had scheduled later that evening with Mr. Moussaoui while you
20 were having one of your extended lunches?
21 A. Not at lunch, but when we went back to the classroom building
22 over on the other side, we weren't -- we weren't getting anywhere
23 with a ground-school-type information, and so I suggested to Zac,
24 I said: You know what I have tonight? I have a LOFT, which is a
25 four-hour trip, and if we get permission from the students and --
1 for you to be in the simulator with them, because that's their
2 training period, they have to approve it, and you sit in the back
3 and you don't ask any questions and you don't say anything, maybe
4 they would -- you could sit in on that LOFT and just observe it.
5 I said: You'll get more out of that than you would out of
6 anything we could teach here at ground school.
7 Q. And what did Mr. Moussaoui -- what was his reaction to that?
8 A. He wanted to do that.
9 Q. All right. So did you set that up? Did you talk to
10 Mr. Esiktas and the other student?
11 A. Not until we got there. I said, I said: That happens on
12 Thursday at 6:00. I said: You come over at 5:00, and we'll ask
13 Salim, and if he approves it, why, you can sit in on it. But
14 usually I brief the two students -- the student for an hour, and
15 so we were going to be there at 5:00. And I told Zac: Show up at
16 five, and we'll see if we can pull this off.
17 Q. You said Thursday. Did you mean Tuesday, that same day,
18 Tuesday, August the 14th?
19 A. Oh, I told him on Tuesday that we could do this, but the LOFT
20 was on -- oh, I'm sorry, you're right, it was on Tuesday night.
21 Q. Okay.
22 A. Yes, that's right. It was on Tuesday night, and we were in
23 ground school, and we stopped the ground school, and I said:
24 Let's not do this anymore. Let's just show up this afternoon, and
25 you can be a part of the LOFT.
1 Q. Okay. And everybody agreed, and he showed up later that
2 evening then on Tuesday the 14th?
3 A. He came before 5:00. It was light outside. I walked outside
4 to greet him, and he drove up about 4:45.
5 Q. You said he drove up. What kind of car did he drive up in?
6 A. It was a four-door Subaru.
7 Q. Okay. What color?
8 A. Metallic.
9 Q. All right. And was he alone, or was he with somebody else?
10 A. Somebody drove him. I never saw him other than sitting in
11 the driver's seat. He was of slight build, dark complected, and
12 had black hair.
13 Q. Okay.
14 A. From the back.
15 Q. Did Mr. Moussaoui ever introduce you to the person who was
16 driving him in that Subaru?
17 A. No.
18 Q. All right. And Mr. Moussaoui got out of the passenger side,
19 I gather; is that right?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. All right. And did you happen to notice what kind of --
22 which state the license plate was from?
23 A. When I walked out, since I'm already suspicious and I'm
24 trying to do whatever I can to try to at least remember something
25 that might help if we were to take this any further with the FBI,
1 I tried to memorize the license plate.
2 Q. Okay.
3 A. And I noticed that it was green and white, and I couldn't
4 remember the letters when I talked with the FBI, but I saw that
5 the last three numbers were 676, which were the same numbers of my
6 number of my hotel where I stayed, so I remembered that.
7 Q. Okay. And so going back then to the LOFT trip that night,
8 Mr. Moussaoui showed up, and did you do the LOFT trip?
9 A. We did.
10 Q. If we could show on the screen again Exhibit MN-119, please?
11 Now, we're back in simulator No. 7; is that right?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And could you tell us, actually, you could point this with
14 your finger, where would the captain, Mr. Esiktas, sit? If you'd
15 put that on the screen and make a little circle?
16 A. That's the captain's chair.
17 Q. I'm sorry?
18 A. That's the captain's chair.
19 Q. Okay. Could you indicate where Mr. Graham, the copilot, sat?
20 A. (Indicating.)
21 Q. And could you indicate where it is that you sat?
22 A. (Indicating.)
23 Q. And could you tell us where it was that Mr. Moussaoui sat?
24 A. There is a chair, the chair on the right here, there's
25 another chair behind that, and he sat in that.
1 Q. Okay. And did he -- let me just clear this.
2 Did he -- did you give him any instructions,
3 Mr. Moussaoui, about what it is that he was to do during this
4 four-hour LOFT trip?
5 A. He couldn't say anything, and he couldn't ask any questions.
6 He had to be quiet, because it was Salim's training, and he was
7 not to interrupt it.
8 Q. And did he abide by your instructions?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. All right. And could you tell us, did you do the LOFT trip
11 as you would any other trip?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Okay. Nothing unusual happened during that time period?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Okay. After the four-hour, the LOFT trip was over, what
16 happened after that?
17 A. We just -- you don't debrief LOFTs because -- and you can't
18 fail them. They're just -- even if you crash the airplane. So we
19 all just left the simulator, and we were all going down to our
20 transportation and go home.
21 Q. Okay. Was that the last time that you had contact with
22 Mr. Moussaoui?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And by the way, during that -- those two days that you had
25 contact with him, including those very long lunches that you had
1 with him, anything that led you to believe he was crazy or
2 anything like that?
3 A. No.
4 Q. And at any time did he tell you he was a terrorist?
5 A. No, no.
6 Q. All right. Now, by the way, at any point did you ever ask
7 him why it was that he was not studying in Europe?
8 A. I did ask him that, and he said the flight schools in Europe
9 will not let you do these things.
10 Q. Okay. Do you know if that's true or not?
11 A. No, I do not know.
12 Q. All right. Now, the next day, Mr. Moussaoui was scheduled
13 for his day off, right, Wednesday the 15th?
14 A. That's right.
15 Q. Now, in the interim, did, did -- were you -- your efforts to
16 get somebody from Pan Am to call the FBI, were those fruitful?
17 Did somebody from your shop call the FBI?
18 A. Somebody did.
19 Q. And was that Tim Nelson?
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And as a result of Tim Nelson's call to the FBI, were you
22 called by a special agent from the FBI?
23 A. I was called by Alan McHale first, and he said, "The FBI
24 wants to talk to you. Are you available?"
25 And I said, "Yes, I am. I'll be at my motel here."
1 Q. All right. And first of all -- and who was the agent that
2 you spoke to?
3 A. Harry Samit.
4 Q. And did he first speak to you on the telephone on the 15th?
5 A. Yes, because we had to set up where we were going to meet.
6 Q. Okay. And then did you meet him on the 16th?
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. Okay. And where did you meet him?
9 A. I was staying at the Spring Hill Suites Motel, and we met in
10 a commons room that was right opposite the front desk.
11 Q. And did you describe to him all the things that you've told
12 us about that you could recall about Mr. Moussaoui at that time?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And did you tell him that you had those worries about him,
15 that maybe he was going to do something with an airplane that he
16 shouldn't have been?
17 A. I probably -- I conveyed that he should -- we should have a
18 background check here before we teach somebody how to fly a
19 commercial airliner.
20 MR. NOVAK: I have no further questions of the witness,
21 Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: All right. Cross examination?
23 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
24 CROSS EXAMINATION
25 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
1 Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Prevost.
2 A. Hello.
3 Q. Good morning. We're not yet in the afternoon period.
4 I understand that Mr. Moussaoui was training on a
5 747-400; is that correct?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Not a 757 or a 767?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And you testified earlier, I believe, that other simulations
10 are available at that facility, including those aircraft?
11 A. Not a 767, but a 757.
12 Q. 757?
13 What is a 747-400 designed to fly? What kind of route?
14 A. Intercontinental. It's an airplane that's designed to fly
15 across the oceans.
16 Q. Such as from Heathrow to New York and back?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Harder to fly, obviously, than a Cessna?
19 A. Way.
20 Q. Way harder. How many hours did it take you to learn how to
21 fly a jet of that size?
22 A. Well, I came through the normal pipeline of flying all the
23 different airplanes that -- of the vintage: 727, 707, DC-10, so I
24 just progressed along the large airplanes, and I probably had
25 10,000 hours by the time I got there.
1 Q. You progressed meaning you started --
2 A. Started at the lowest pay scale seat and then moved along
3 as -- it's a seniority system, and as a seat becomes available,
4 you bid for it, and then you are awarded, and then you move along
5 in seniority.
6 Q. And then after you become qualified enough to fly a, a jet, a
7 commercial airliner, how many hours did it take you to actually
8 learn how to operate the cockpit?
9 A. You do not come out of training without knowing how to run
10 that airplane. I mean, that's -- you don't need any additional
11 hours to go to the airplane.
12 Q. But what I'm saying is that when you actually start learning
13 how to use -- in your simulator training -- you took simulator
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And how many hours did you put in to learn how to, how to
17 operate the cockpit?
18 A. A simulator syllabus is four 4-hour sessions in a non-motion
19 device, and then six or seven sessions, including the LOFT, of a
20 motion device.
21 Q. And you were, you were already a pilot at that point?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Now, in the first day of Mr. Moussaoui's training, which was,
24 I think you said, August 13 -- is that correct?
25 A. It was -- yes. If that's a Monday, yes.
1 Q. Monday? And you say you sat through some classroom
2 instruction with Mr. Moussaoui?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that correct?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Now, you had a PowerPoint presentation which turned out to
7 be, as you, I think, described it earlier, fairly useless for
8 Mr. Moussaoui?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. And the next day, he was scheduled for some more classroom
11 instruction in the morning?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. Again, was that also a PowerPoint presentation?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. You mentioned earlier, I believe, that it was not
16 interactive, meaning he could not interact directly with the
18 A. That's right.
19 Q. And that was --
20 A. Nor could I.
21 Q. That essentially consisted of you instructing him orally?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. To the extent you were able?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. It sounds like you really weren't able to make much headway
1 with him.
2 A. I would agree with that.
3 Q. And it was, it was at that point that you suggested, well,
4 maybe we'll try the simulator, since he's a bit of a knucklehead
5 and can't figure out what's going on in the classroom?
6 A. No, not, not that he was a knucklehead. That it would be a
7 meaningful thing for him to do for what he was paying for.
8 Q. And he sat in the simulator, as you described it, it's in the
9 back, as an observer?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Never operated the simulator himself?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Never pushed any buttons in the simulator?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Never sat behind the controls?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Is it safe to say, Mr. Prevost, that it was fairly obvious to
18 you at least at the end of the first day that this was a very
19 suspicious guy?
20 A. No, I was never suspicious of Zac until I -- even when I
21 thought we should do a background check, I was not suspicious of
22 him. I thought that there should be a protocol in place that if
23 they're going to have somebody like this come through, that, that
24 they should have some kind of a mechanism to do a background
25 check. I was not suspicious of Zac.
1 Q. Well, you were concerned that his training wasn't for a
2 legitimate purpose, correct?
3 A. Maybe when I heard about the $100 bills.
4 Q. All right. And you were so concerned that you -- let me see
5 if I've got this right -- on the first day, you called your
6 manager, or a manager?
7 A. At the end of the first day.
8 Q. At the end of the first day. That's -- you were concerned
9 enough at that point to go to the manager and say: I've got a
11 A. Not with Zac. Just with the fact that we had not -- that
12 we're teaching somebody that we don't know anything about to fly
13 an airplane.
14 Q. Were you teaching anybody else there at that time?
15 A. Good question. I can't remember whether I had -- no, I don't
16 think I had another student ongoing at that time.
17 Q. All right. Now, this was -- the person you tried to speak to
18 was Mr. McHale; is that correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. But instead, you spoke to Liz Stone?
21 A. I don't -- if that's her last name, yes. I spoke to Liz the
23 Q. And what you said to the scheduler is: Bring this up to
24 Alan -- Alan being Alan McHale?
25 A. Yes.
1 Q. This is a guy we don't know anything about and we're teaching
2 him to essentially operate a flight deck on an airplane?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. That's what you told her?
5 A. That's right.
6 Q. All right. And you told her that we should investigate this
7 guy before we allow him to do this training and make sure he's
9 A. Yes, a background check.
10 Q. A background check. Why, why was a background check
11 something that you wanted to have done on Mr. Moussaoui?
12 A. I just felt that there should be a protocol that somebody
13 coming through that was not an airline pilot, that we should --
14 what would be a word? -- vet him or at least make sure that
15 everything was okay.
16 Q. Had you ever asked that that be done for anyone else before?
17 A. No, but you know what? I had worked for Northwest Airlines
18 and was now involved with the Northwest Airlines contract
19 training, and everything was always professional. This was the
20 first nonprofessional event that I had ever participated in.
21 Q. And that -- and Mr. Moussaoui's in particular caused you some
22 concern because of that. He came to you, as I understand it,
23 without any pilot's license, correct?
24 A. That's right.
25 Q. And he hadn't solo'd, correct?
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. He had -- how many hours did you say he had in the air?
3 A. I was told 55.
4 Q. 55. And the lowest number of hours for a student you had
5 previously instructed was how many?
6 A. 600 multi-engine.
7 Q. 600. And what was the next lowest student?
8 A. Maybe a thousand or more.
9 Q. A thousand. And this is all in the first day?
10 A. I'm -- I don't --
11 Q. Well, I mean, you're learning this information, but you're
12 concerned enough to approach --
13 A. No, I already knew that he only had 55 hours. Alan McHale
14 had told me.
15 Q. Okay. And the next morning, now we're talking Tuesday,
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. You went back and spoke to Alan. At that point, he was
20 A. Yes.
21 Q. And you said words to the effect, we need to check into this
22 guy, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And Alan's response was: Well, you know, he's paid up, so
25 we've got to let him proceed?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And your -- you were so concerned, you said: Well, you'll
3 care when there's a hijacking and they'll wonder where he started
4 to work all those switches and the lawsuits start rolling in.
5 A. That's what I said.
6 Q. That's what you said.
7 So you knew at that point that there was a potential
8 problem with Mr. Moussaoui?
9 A. I did not know that. When -- the day before, when I asked:
10 Are you Muslim? I thought, Wait a minute. Middle East, this
11 fellow is Muslim, and maybe we should be checking this out.
12 Q. Checking this out. In other words -- well, at that point,
13 not just checking it out, but you recommended -- did you recommend
14 to Mr. McHale at that point that they should call the FBI?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then having received no response from him, or no
17 acceptable response in your mind, you then went into the
18 supervisors' meeting, I think you said -- correct?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And said: Hey, you guys should call the FBI?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I mean, even you knew at that point that law enforcement
23 should be contacted.
24 A. Somebody should go through a background. I felt that we
25 should do a -- before we go any further on this, we should do a
1 background check to make sure that he is okay.
2 Q. You don't have any training in law enforcement, do you?
3 A. Zero.
4 Q. So you don't have any experience in actually picking out
5 who's worthy of being called to the FBI about and who is not?
6 A. That's right.
7 Q. It's just a layperson making this, this judgment, correct?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. And even you could figure out that at this point, Tuesday
10 morning, that the FBI should be called?
11 A. I thought they should be called, yes.
12 Q. And not only that, but you -- after the second time -- you
13 went into the supervisors' meeting one time, correct, and you
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And then you learned after that, I think you testified, that
17 he had paid in cash?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. Is that from Mr. McHale? You bumped into him again?
20 A. Jerry Liddell.
21 Q. Jerry Liddell.
22 And that he had paid in $100 bills?
23 A. He had -- when I asked: Well, how did he pay? Check or
24 credit card, he said: $100 bills.
25 Q. And then you went back into the supervisors' meeting again?
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Because now what? Your hair's on fire?
3 A. That was an indicator, I thought.
4 Q. And what did you tell the supervisors?
5 A. You guys, do you know that he paid for his training with $100
6 bills? I -- that's not normal.
7 Q. No, no response from them, correct?
8 A. Alan McHale said: Well, you call Miami.
9 And I said: Okay, I'll call them. Give me the number.
10 Q. Now, is this the third time that you recommended --
11 A. Second.
12 Q. Let me just put it this way.
13 A. Sorry.
14 Q. Is this the third time that you had recommended to somebody
15 in management that the FBI be contacted?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And after you left the supervisors' meeting the second time,
18 you then -- there was a period of time in which you waited for
19 Mr. Moussaoui to arrive?
20 A. Yes. I -- yes.
21 Q. And when he arrived, you were again so concerned about him
22 that you actually tried to memorize his license plate?
23 A. That was later. I thought about this as I was waiting for
24 the students to arrive at the NATCO site later on that afternoon,
25 and I just walked out -- I can't tell you why I thought that. I
1 just did it.
2 Q. You just did it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. It was your instinct to do that?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. And did you, did you, in fact, sit in your car and wait for
7 him to arrive?
8 A. No.
9 Q. And just so I'm clear as to what it is that you knew about
10 Mr. Moussaoui's ability, I think you testified that you were aware
11 that he only had about 50 hours of flight training in light
13 A. That's what I was told.
14 Q. Aircraft that bore no -- or bear no similarity to a 747-400?
15 A. A CessnA.
16 Q. No pilot's license of any kind?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. Paid in cash?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. And you testified earlier that this was not typical, because
21 typically, at least the individuals who you instruct are people
22 that come to you with a substantial amount of flying time and an
23 employer who pays the freight?
24 A. Sometimes individuals pay themselves, but yes, that's right.
25 Normally the airline that they're working for pays their training.
1 Q. Pays their training.
2 And you testified also that you had a conversation with
3 Mr. Moussaoui that touched upon religious matters?
4 A. No. I just asked him if he was, conversationally, hajj,
5 Ramadan, what is that? Are you Muslim?
6 Q. Right. You asked him if he was a Muslim.
7 A. Yes.
8 Q. And he responded -- can you tell us again how he responded?
9 A. It was a raised-voice-type response: I am nothing.
10 Forceful, and enough that I left that subject and thought in my
11 own mind, Don't go there anymore.
12 Q. Did that reaction when you raised the subject of his, his
13 being or not being a Muslim, was that reaction of his of concern
14 to you?
15 A. The reaction, it was different than what normally somebody
16 would say conversationally, so there was an effect that he was
17 trying to force upon me.
18 Q. And this was another indication at least to you that, for
19 instance, the FBI should be notified?
20 A. It triggered a thought. That's when I first thought we
21 should do -- that's when I got the idea that we should do a
22 background check. We don't -- should we be doing this? What are
23 we doing here?
24 Q. That's when it first started?
25 A. That's right.
1 Q. And it just got progressively worse as time wore on?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. And you've told all this -- you told all this to the FBI, as
4 I understand your testimony, in August, when they came to visit
6 A. Yes, on Wednesday.
7 Q. Specifically to Agent Harry Samit?
8 A. Yes. There was another agent there, and also an INS guy.
9 Q. And you also told the FBI at that time that Mr. Moussaoui was
10 interested in flying a simulated flight from Heathrow to New York
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And that he was overly interested in the mode control panel?
14 A. He didn't know what a mode control panel was.
15 Q. Until you told him.
16 A. Even when I told him, I doubt that he really knew what it
18 Q. So you don't think he could actually operate the thing?
19 A. Not from that ground school he couldn't.
20 Q. I mean, in fact, as you testified earlier, the interactive
21 PowerPoint classroom instruction that you had was not -- was not
23 A. That's right.
24 Q. And he never actually touched any of the buttons in the
25 simulator itself?
1 A. That's right.
2 Q. So it's not your testimony here today that anybody can
3 basically learn the mode control panel and fly a big jumbo jet?
4 A. No, that's -- not from a ground school.
5 Q. Certainly not this man (indicating)?
6 A. Yeah, he could.
7 Q. You're not testifying that he could fly a 747-400 based on
8 the instruction you gave him?
9 A. If he'd have taken -- I think he had paid for four simulator
10 sessions, and at the end of those sessions, he would have known
11 how to work a mode control panel.
12 Q. I'm not asking you, Mr. Prevost, what could have happened or
13 what would have happened --
14 MR. NOVAK: Judge, I object. He's arguing with the
15 witness now.
16 THE COURT: Sustained.
17 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
18 Q. Based on the instruction that you gave him, it's not your
19 testimony here today that he could operate the mode control panel?
20 A. That's correct.
21 Q. That's a yes?
22 A. That's a yes.
23 MR. TROCCOLI: The Court's indulgence?
24 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
25 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
1 Q. Do you know, do you know if the FAA has ever done anything to
2 harden cockpit doors to make sure that individuals who operate or
3 can operate a mode control panel don't just come into the cockpit?
4 A. What was -- I missed the word, something door, cockpit doors.
5 Q. I take it, I take it that individuals who learn how to
6 operate a mode control panel can then, as I understand your
7 testimony, fly a large commercial airliner?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Do you know if the FAA did anything to make sure that if
10 somebody got such training, that they couldn't get into the
12 A. The cockpit doors had locks on them.
13 Q. Were they hardened?
14 A. Hardened?
15 Q. Hardened.
16 A. H-a-r-d-e-n-e-d?
17 Q. Correct.
18 A. No.
19 Q. Before 9/11 is my question.
20 A. I don't know what they are now.
21 Q. But prior to September 11, 2001, they were not hardened?
22 A. You had to have a key to get in.
23 Q. But they were not hardened?
24 A. Correct.
25 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you, Your Honor.
1 THE COURT: All right. Any redirect?
2 MR. NOVAK: Just a couple questions.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Novak, while you're doing that, I don't
4 think formally you moved in MN-617.3, which was the --
5 MR. NOVAK: May I move it in?
6 THE COURT: Yeah. So it's in for the record.
7 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
8 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-617.3 was received in
10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. NOVAK:
12 Q. Just a couple questions, Mr. Prevost. Just to follow up on
13 Mr. Troccoli -- tried to get you to -- asked you that last
14 question where you said yes about him, referring to Mr. Moussaoui,
15 not being able to operate the mode control panel based upon your
16 instruction. Could -- were you referring simply to the ground
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. If Mr. Moussaoui had fulfilled that schedule, the one that
20 the judge just referred to, 617 -- can we get that up there,
22 If he had fulfilled that schedule that he had taken
23 where he had actually, instead of just taking the ground school,
24 as Mr. Troccoli asked you, if he had finished it and taken those,
25 what, one, two, three, four, simulator sessions, is there any
1 doubt in your mind that he could have operated a mode control
3 MR. TROCCOLI: Objection, Your Honor. That calls for
5 THE COURT: Not from this witness. Overruled.
6 THE WITNESS: He would have known how to run the mode
7 control panel.
8 BY MR. NOVAK
9 Q. So had Mr. Moussaoui finished his training on August 20, he
10 could have flown a 747-400; is that right?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. All right. And let me ask you this: Mr. Troccoli referred
13 to his client, I think at one point, as a knucklehead. Was there
14 anything about Mr. Moussaoui's intelligence that led you to
15 believe that he was a knucklehead?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Were the problems intelligence, or were they experience?
18 A. Experience.
19 MR. NOVAK: All right. Thank you, I have no further
21 THE COURT: Any recross?
22 MR. TROCCOLI: Yes, briefly, Your Honor.
23 RECROSS EXAMINATION
24 BY MR. TROCCOLI:
25 Q. Mr. Prevost, Mr. Moussaoui never finished his training; isn't
1 that so?
2 A. That's correct.
3 Q. He was arrested on the second day, correct?
4 A. Not on the second day. After the second day, he was
5 arrested, and before his simulator training.
6 Q. He never actually operated a simulator; isn't that so?
7 A. Yes, that's correct.
8 Q. At least with you?
9 A. That's correct.
10 MR. TROCCOLI: Thank you.
11 MR. NOVAK: Nothing else for the witness.
12 THE COURT: All right. Sir, then you're excused as a
13 witness. Thank you for your testimony. Do not discuss your
14 testimony or what you heard in court with any witness who has not
15 yet testified.
16 (Witness excused.)