RUTH GREENGLASS: I told my husband that I knew that he was working on the atomic bomb. He asked me how I knew and who had told me. I said that I had been to Julius Rosenberg's house and that he had told me that David's work was on the atomic bomb, and he asked me how Julius knew it and I told him of the conversation we had had, that Julius had said they spent two years getting in touch with people who would enable him to do work directly for the Russian people, that his friends, the Russians, had told him that the work was on the atomic bomb, that the bomb had dangerous radiation effects, that it was a very destructive weapon and that the scientific basis, the information on the bomb should be made available to Soviet Russia....

KILSHEIMER: Now will you state as best you can recollect, the substance of that conversation which you had with the Rosenbergs on that occasion?

RUTH GREENGLASS: Yes. Julius said that I might have noticed that for some time he and Ethel had not been actively pursuing any Communist Party activities, that they didn't buy the Daily Worker at the usual newsstand; that for two years he had been trying to get in touch with people who would assist him to be able to help the Russian people more directly other than just his membership in the Communist Party, and he went on to tell me that he knew that David was working on the atomic bomb and I asked him how he knew, because I had received an affidavit from the War Department telling me--1 said that I had received an affidavit from the War Department telling me that my mail to David would be censored and his to me, because he was working on a top secret project. And he said--I wanted to know how he knew what David was doing. He said that his friends had told him that David was working on the atomic bomb, and he went on to tell me that the atomic bomb was the most destructive weapon used so far, that it had dangerous radiation effects that the United States and Britain were working on this project jointly and that he felt that the information should be shared with Russia, who was our ally at the time, because if all nations had the information then one nation couldn't use the bomb as a threat against another. He said that he wanted me to tell my husband, David, that he should give information to Julius to be passed on to the Russians.

KILSHEIMER: And what information did he ask you to obtain from your husband if he should be willing to do it?

RUTH GREENGLASS: He wanted a physical description of the project at Los Alamos, the approximate number of people employed, the names of some of the scientists who were working there--something about whether the place was camouflaged, what the security measures were and the relative distance of the project to Albuquerque and Santa Fe.

Greenglass said she didn't want David to engage in espionage at Los Alamos, but told him of Julius's request that he do so:

GREENGLASS: My husband did not give me an immediate answer; at first he, too, refused, and the following day he told me that he would consent to do this.

KILSHEIMER: Now, did you inform your husband as to the type of information that Julius Rosenberg had asked you to obtain?


Greenglass testified about her husband's description of Los Alamos:

GREENGLASS: He said that Los Alamos had formerly been a riding academy, that it was forty miles from Santa Fe and about 110 miles from Albuquerque, that the project itself was on the top of a hill and it was secluded; you could hardly see it until you were almost on top of it; that there was a guard at the entrance at all times, and everyone was checked going in and out. He told me the names of the scientists, Dr. Urey, Dr. Oppenheimer, Kistiakowsky, Niels Bohr. David told me that he worked in an experimental shop, that he made models from blueprints that scientists brought in to him.

Greenglass admitted her role in advising her husband as to his espionage activities:

GREENGLASS: I told him to be very careful in getting the information, not to take any papers, not to take any blueprints, not to be obvious in seeking information from other people, and be careful not to get involved in political discussions.

Greenglass testified about a meeting with the Rosenbergs when David was in New York on forlough. While David and Julius talked about the bomb, she had a conversation with Ethel:

KILSHEIMER: What did you say to Ethel Rosenberg at that time?

RUTH GREENGLASS: Well, Ethel said that she was tired, and I asked her what she had been doing. She said she had been typing; and I asked her if she had found David's notes hard to distinguish. She said no, she was used to his handwriting. Then she said that Julie, too, was tired; that he was very busy; he ran around a good deal; that all his time and his energies were used in this thing; that was the most important thing to him; that he was away a good deal and spent time with his friends, that he had to make a good impression; that it sometimes cost him as much as $50 to $75 an evening to entertain his friends; and then we spoke further. I said that I expected to be very lonely in Albuquerque; and Ethel said that I would make friends; that after a while I would probably meet other people there from New York.

Greenglass testified about the day Harry Gold showed up at their apartment in Albuquerque:

KILSHEIMER: Where was the last time you had seen the portion of the Jell-O box side which Harry Gold produced?

RUTH GREENGLASS: In Julius Rosenberg's hand.

She corroborated David's testimony that Gold left them an envelope containing $500. Greenglass went on to describe another meeting with the Rosenbergs in September of 1945:I

RUTH GREENGLASS: Well, Ethel was typing the notes and David was helping her when she couldn't make out his handwriting and explained the technical terms and spelled them out for her, and Julius and I helped her with the phraseology when it got a little too lengthy, wordy.

The prosecutor asked Greenglass about 1946:

KILSHEIMER: When David left the Army, did you for a while live in the Rosenberg apartment?

RUTH GREENGLASS: Yes, Julius and Ethel were going away and they wanted us to stay in their apartment in case any important mail or telephone calls were to be received.

KILSHEIMER: Did you notice any particular piece of furniture?

RUTH GREENGLASS: A mahogany console table.

KILSHEIMER: Did you have a conversation with the Rosenbergs concerning that table?


KILSHEIMER: Was your husband present?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I think he was, yes.

KILSHEIMER: What was the conversation?

Greenglass testified that she told Ethel the table was "beautiful" and asked her where she got it. She testified that Ethel told her it was a gift and that Julius turned the console over to show a hollowed section underneath with a place for a lamp. She said that Julius told her the console was used to microfilm Ethel's tyewritten notes.

Greenglass was asked a series of questions about a visit by Julius following the arrest of Harry Gold. She testified that Julius showed them a newspaper picture of Gold and told them it was the spy who had met them in Albuquerque. She testified that Julius told the Greenglasses that they should flee the country. Greenglass testified about another visit from Julius on June 4, 1950:

KILSHEIMER: Now, what took place at that time?

RUTH GREENGLASS: He gave my husband a package wrapped in brown paper and he said it was $4,000, that there would be more money available in Mexico when we got there.

KILSHEIMIER: What did you do with the $4,000?

RUTH GREENGLASS: We put it in the chimney in our fireplace and afterwards my husband gave it to my brother-in-law.

KILSHEIMER: Did Rosenberg on that occasion tell you when you would have to leave the country?

RUTH GREENGLASS: He told us that we would have to leave sooner than expected, that they were closing in and getting ready to make an arrest....I asked him what he was doing. He said he was going too, that he would not leave at the same time, and he would meet us in Mexico. We would see him there, and I asked him what Ethel thought about it and he said Ethel didn't like the idea of it herself but she realized it was necessary and they were going to go.

Greenglass testified as to a visit by Ethel following David's arrest later that month:

RUTH GREENGLASS: Ethel came with pie for me and gifts for my son, and after we talked in my mother-in-law's house for a few minutes she asked me would I please go out and walk with her. We walked around the block several times and she said her counsel advised her to see me personally and get assurances from me that David would not talk. She said it would only be a matter of a couple of years, and in the long run we would be better off; that Julius had been picked up by the FBI for questioning. He said he was innocent and that he had been released; that she had no doubt that he would probably be picked up again. He would continue to say he was innocent. That if David said he was innocent and Julius said he was innocent, it would strengthen their position; everybody would stand a better chance, and she said do you think it is a dirty shame for David to take the blame and sit for two?


A. BLOCH: Do you think that acting as a spy against the interests of the United States is a crime?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I think it is wrong.

A. BLOCH: When did you first realize that it was wrong?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I have always known it was wrong....

A. BLOCH: Well, when you say you know it's wrong, was it wrong in your opinion morally?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I felt that we had taken something into our hands that we were not equipped to handle with, we were tampering with things that were beyond our knowledge and understanding, yes.

A. BLOCH: And you realized that in 1946?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I realized it in 1944.

A. BLOCH: And you kept on doing what you said you did?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I have told the truth about what I did....

A. BLOCH: And you knew that that $500 was paid to your husband by Gold?


A. BLOCH: And you knew that that was compensation for spy work?

RUTH GREENGLASS: No, I was under the impression at first that Julius said it was for scientific purposes we were sharing the information, but when my husband got the $500, I realized it was just C.O.D.; he gave the information and he got paid.

Bloch asked Greenglass to repeat her testimony concerning her conversation with Julius when he suggested that David provided secret information. Bloch hoped that the testimony when seem canned or memorized upon a second hearing. When she finished, Bloch asked wheter her statement was memorized:

RUTH GREENGLASS: I never memorized it. I knew it too well.

A. BLOCH: Well, are you aware of the fact that the narrative you just gave us is almost identical with the verbiage used on your first giving of the testimony of that particular occurrence?


SAYPOL: Just a moment. I appreciate so expert an opinion as to the accuracy of the witness's recollection, but I object to the form of the question.

COURT: Your objection is sustained. I don't know exactly what the point is. If the witness had left out something, Mr. Bloch would say that the witness had left out something. Mr. Bloch would say that the witness didn't repeat the story accurately. And the witness repeats it accurately, and apparently that isn't any good.

A. BLOCH: What I am referring to is the verbatim repetition of the verbiage.

COURT: Well, we don't know that it is verbatim. We haven't had the record yet.

A. BLOCH: Well, it is a matter, of course, of comparing the testimony after we get it written up.

COURT: Mr. Bloch asked the question; the witness has answered.

A. BLOCH: Very well....

A. BLOCH: Well, at the time you told [David] to go to Mr. Rogge[the Greenglass's attorney], you say you had made up your mind and your husband had made up his mind to tell the truth; is that the idea?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I had always intended to tell the truth.

A. BLOCH: Yes, that means to confess?

COURT: It means to tell the truth.

A. BLOCH: That means to confess?

COURT: That means to tell the truth.

A. BLOCH: Yes, but I want the witness to answer, not your Honor. I know what is in your Honor's mind. I want to know what is in the witness' mind, and the jury wants to know what is in the witness' mind.

COURT: Can you answer that question?

RUTH GREENGLASS: Well, I have confessed everything I know about it.

COURT: Very well.

A. BLOCH: And you nevertheless told your brother-in-law to pay Mr. Rogge $4,000?


BLOCH: . . . [T]oday you entertain a hope that your husband is going to be treated by the Court with lenience?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I am telling the story because it's true and I hope and pray that my husband will come home. That is what I want, but I am not telling the story for that, no.

A. BLOCH: Did Julius tell you not to jot all this information down in writing?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That's right.

A. BLOCH: Did Greenglass tell you that you were to memorize that in-formation?


A. BLOCH: And to transmit it to Rosenberg?


A. BLOCH: Did you ask him why you weren't to take it down in writing?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I didn't have to ask him. Julius had instructed me not to.

A. BLOCH: Well did you realize then that there was danger in your taking this thing down in writing all these items down in writing?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I think I was too young to realize the whole thing fully at the time.

A. BLOCH: How old are you?


A. BLOCH: And at that time you were approximately twenty?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That's right.

A. BLOCH: So you now say, because you were young you didn't realize the danger?

RUTH GREENGLASS: No, I don't say that. I say I don't think I understood the significance of what was happening.

A. BLOCH: Oh, you didn't, and the first time you began to realize it was when?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I think I realized it most clearly after Gold left and then again after the bomb had been dropped on Hiroshima....

A. BLOCH: Nevertheless, on the 28th of May 1950, you took passport photographs?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That is right.

A. BLOCH: Six copies of them, is that right?


A. BLOCH: And at the time these photographs were taken you knew that you were not leaving the country?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That is right.

A. BLOCH: Did you talk it over with your husband as to the reason you were taking photographs when you did not intend to leave the country?


A. BLOCH: Was it to deceive Rosenberg?


A. BLOCH: And make him believe that you were going away?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That is right.

A. BLOCH: Did you have in mind that you were going to get additional money?

RUTH GREENGLASS: No, it wasn't a question of giving him the pictures for the money.

A. BLOCH: Well, what was the object of deceiving him?

RUTH GREFNGLASS: Because we didn't want Mr. Rosenberg to think we were going to stay in the country, because we were harmful to him.

A. BLOCH: Didn't you have in mind at all the $4,000, or the $5,000 that you were to receive?

RUTH GREENGLASS: That was not the purpose of taking the pictures.

A. BLOCH: You took the $4,000?

RUTH GREENGLASS: Yes, he gave it to my husband.

A. BLOCH: You were there at the time, weren't you?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I was in the house....

Bloch asked Greenglass a series of questions about the Jell-O box. Judge Kaufman interrupted with one of his own:

COURT: Now, let me ask you this; what was important to vou?

RUTH GREENGLASS: I had the Jell-O box side to identify myself to whoever was to come out with the other matching half. It wasn't necessary for me to memorize what was written on the instruction. I memorized the instructions Mr. Rosenberg gave me and the information my husband gave in return. This had nothing to do with it.

E. H. BLOCH: Maybe you didn't understand my question.


E. H. BLOCH: All I wanted to know is whether or not you noticed what was written or printed on this side, that you said you got.

RUTH GREENGLASS: Sufficiently to know that it was the instruction side, but not the other side, with the picture of the little girl on it.

COURT: Excuse me. When the bearer of the other half of that side of the Jell-O box was to come to you, was it your primary purpose in seeing whether the two sides would fit together like a jigsaw puzzle?


COURT: Very well.