Testimony of Alger Hiss before the House Committee on Un-American Activities

(August 16, 1948)

HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
MONDAY, AUGUST 16, 1948

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
Washington, D. C.

EXECUTIVE SESSION

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p. m., in the hearing room of the Committee on Un-American Activities, Old House Office Building, Hon. J. Parnell Thomas (chairman) presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives J. Parnell Thomas, John McDowell, Richard M. Nixon, and F. Edward Hebert.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; Louis J. Russell, William A. Wheeler, investigators; Benjamin Mandel, director of research; A. S. Poore, editor; and L. E. Howard,
member of the research staff, for the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. The meeting will come to order. The record will show that a subcommittee is sitting consisting of Mr. McDowell, Mr. Nixon, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Thomas. A quorum of the subcommittee is present.
Mr. Stripling, the first witness.
Mr. STRIPLING. Alger Hiss.
The CHAIRMAN. Please stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HISS. So help me God, I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Sit down, please. Mr. STRIPLING.

TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS

Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, you have previously appeared before the committee in open session. You are here in response to a telegram which was sent you last Friday?
Mr. HISS. That is correct. May I make an inquiry?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes, sir.
Mr. HISS. I would like to be advised what the arrangements are with respect to a transcript of this particular meeting of the subcommittee. Will I be entitled to receive a copy of the transcript of this meeting?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, this is an executive session, and that speaks for itself that everything is supposed to be right within these four walls. Therefore, we do not naturally give out the testimony taken in executive session.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chairman, I think it should be said that in the event the transcript or portions of the transcript are made public, you will receive a copy in the event it is used, but in the event that it is kept confidential and not made public, the custom of the committee is not to furnish a transcript.
The CHAIRMAN. That is correct.
Mr. HISS. That is all....
Mr. NIXON. As of course, Mr. Hiss, you are aware, the committee has a very difficult problem in regard to the testimony which has been submitted to the committee by Mr. Chambers and by yourself. The committee feels that it has the responsibility to resolve that problem as well as it can; and the purpose of this hearing and of the questions which the members of the committee will ask at this time is to assist the committee in resolving that particular problem.
We have come to the conclusion, a conclusion which incidentally I think had to be reached by the members of the committee under the circumstances, that the individual who has come before the committee and has given false testimony must, if possible, answer for that testimony.
For that reason we are going this afternoon to go into a number of items which I can assure you have a direct bearing on that problem. We appreciate the fact that you have come down to testify willingly, and I trust that you will bear with me if some of the questions that I may ask may seem to be lengthy or even going over ground previously covered because we want the record to be absolutely straight on the conflicts between testimony presented by Mr. Chambers and yourself, the points at variance, and the points, if any, of agreement.
Now, when did you first hear of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. The first time I ever heard of Whittaker Chambers to the best of my knowledge was when two representatives of the Federal Bureau of Investigation called at my office at 700 Jackson Place, I think, in the month of May 1947, and among the list of names of people they asked me if I was acquainted with was the name Whittaker
Chambers.
I remember the name distinctly because they first asked me if I knew someone named Chambers, and I replied that I did.
I identified a boyhood friend of mine, Robert Chambers, who lived near me in Baltimore, and who was an agent of the Bureau himself for a while. He is now with the Customs Bureau. They said they did not mean Bob Chambers.
They asked me if I had ever heard of the name Whittaker Chambers, and I remember the name stuck in my memory at the moment because it sounded like a distinctive and unusual name, and I said "No."
His name was 1 of 15 or 20, I would guess, of whom I was asked, of whom I had never heard.
There were one or two others I was asked about at the time whose names I had never heard before, and their names-also have remained in my memory.
Mr. NIXON. You testified when you were before the committee before that in 1936 Mr. Byrnes had--
Mr. HISS. 1946.
Mr. NIXON. I am sorry-1946. Mr. Byrnes had asked you to talk to him concerning certain allegations made by Members of Congress concerning Communist affiliations, and at that time you saw Mr. Tamm, of the FBI.
Mr. HISS. I think I talked to Mr. Tamm on the telephone to get the appointment, and I rather think it was Mr. Ladd rather than Mr.Tamm whom I actually saw, but that I wouldn't want to have to testify to under oath. That is my best recollection.
I called Mr. Hoover, and he was out of town, and I was told Mr. Tamm was second in command. I know Mr. Tamm personally because he was associated with the San Francisco Conference.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Tamm mention the name of Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. To the best of my knowledge, no. If he did, it did not click.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Ladd mention the charges to which Mr. Byrnes had referred?
Mr. HISS. No. Again, in testifying from recollection some years back, my recollection is that Mr. Ladd first said did I have any statement I wish to make? I told him that in the interval between my telephone call and the day when they were able to see me, which was at least 1 day later, I had been thinking of any possible basis for any such charge. I was trying to think of all the associations or the organizations that I might possibly have been connected with.
To the best of my recollection, I recited what I had been able to recall that might be of significance. I was asked very few questions.
I do remember one or two names of individuals. I was asked if I knew Pressman.
The CHAIRMAN. What was the name?
Mr. HISS. Pressman.
Mr. STRIPLING. Lee Pressman.
Mr. HISS. I told Mr. Ladd and someone who was with him in that interview what I have since said and what is the fact, the extent to which I have known Mr. Lee Pressman.
I was asked, I think, about one or two other names, and I just frankly don't recall who the others were, but if the name Chambers was asked of me, I have no recollection of it, and it didn't make any impression on me at the time.
Mr. NIXON. You definitely say you could not possibly have heard of the name Whittaker Chambers before that time?
Mr. HISS. I would say I couldn't before May 1947, because my recollection is so strong on it.
Mr. NIXON. You didn't hear the name Whittaker Chambers in 1939?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. As you have probably noted from press accounts of the hearings, Whittaker Chambers during the period that he alleges that he knew you was not known by the name of Whittaker Chambers. He has testified that he was known by the name of Carl. Do you recall having known an individual between the years 1934 and 1937 whose
name was Carl ?
Mr. HISS. I do not recall anyone by the name of Carl that could remotely be connected with the kind of testimony Mr. Chambers has given. I think I know two or three people named Carl, one of whom I certainly knew, I would think, as far back as 1937-Carl Spaith.
I don't at the moment think of anyone else by the name of Carl whom I knew as far back as that. I know another man named Carl whom I have known more recently.
Mr. NIXON. You knew them as well by their last names?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony is then that you knew no person by the name of Carl between 1934 and 1937?
Mr. HISS. Merely by the name of Carl-absolutely.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony, then, is that you have never known an
individual solely by the name of Carl?
Mr. HISS. That is correct, Mr. Nixon; that is my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know J. Peters?
Mr. HISS. I do not.
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever known a man by the name of Peter?
Mr. HISS. I have never known anybody solely by the name of Peter.
I have known some people by the name of Peter and people whose last name was Peters.
Mr. NIXON. Through the years 1934 to 1937, did you know anybody named Peter?
Mr. HISS. I would like to reply to that perhaps with clarity the same way I did with the question about the name Carl. Between the years 1934 and 1937 I knew no one who was known to me only by the name of Peter. I knew no one who was named J. Peter or J. Peters.
The only people whose first names were Peter were personal friends with no possible connection. I have known some people whose first name was Peter.
Mr. NIXON. Now, Mr. Hiss, there is some testimony in your previous record before the committee concerning your acquaintanceship with Henry Collins.
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. NIXON. My question is now: do you recall ever having gone to the apartment of Henry Collins on St. Matthew's Court?
Mr. HISS. I certainly wouldn't want to say I had never been there
because, as I testified before, I have known Mr. Collins since we were
boys. I have visited in his place of abode, whether it happened to be
an apartment or a house, and he in mine certainly since we again knew
each other when I was in law school in 1929.
Where is St. Matthew's Court? Can somebody identify the place?

Mr. STRIPLING. Near Dupont Circle.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. I think it is a little north of the circle about a
block.
Mrs. HOWARD. Between Longfellow Building and St. Matthew's
Church.
Mr. HISS. I think Henry Collins had ah apartment in that neighborhood and I think I have been in that apartment. I have no clear
recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Those were social occasions _
Mr. HISS. entirely.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall your brother being there at the same
time _
Mr. HISS. No. My brother doesn't know him as well as I do, so far
as I recall. He may not know him at all.
Mr. NIXON. You could have been in the apartment of Henry Collins at St. Matthew's Court _
Mr. HISS. That is a very fair way of stating it.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall whether on any occasion that you were
in that apartment that Mr. Lee Pressman was there _
Mr. HISS. Again I don't want to say that that didn't occur because
I knew Pressman while I was in the Department of Agriculture, as I
had known him previously, and it might very well have been at any
number of social occasions when he was present. I wouldn't want
to testify that I wasn't at any particular one. I may very likely have
been in this apartment of Mr. Collins. I may have been in that apartment. at the time Mr. Pressman was also present, only on social
occasions.
Mr. NIXON. Then there were occasions when Mr. Pressman and
you were with Mr. Collins_
Mr. HISS. That I would not be able to testify to positively because
I don't actually recall the conjunction because my friendship with
Collins was a personal friendship and my friendship with Pressman
was what I could properly describe as a business friendship. I had
known him only as a lawyer.
Mr. NIXON. If there had been occasions, let us say, six or more occasions, on which Mr. Pressman and you were together in Henry Collins'
apartment, would you remember for sure _
Mr. HISS. I think I would. What I really have in mind, to be absolutely explicit, is that if Mr. Collins had 15 or 20 people in for a drink
or cocktails, or a larger number, and Mr. Pressman had been one of
them, I would not be able to testify now positively yes; and if he
wasn't there, I wouldn't be able to testify positively now that he
wasn't.
It would not have struck me as unusual if he had been, because
various officials of the Government who were here in the early days
of the New Deal met at social parties all over the city of Washington
quite frequently, and I certainly am sure that I have been to parties
as well as official conferences where Mr. Pressman was present.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr. Nathan Witt having been at the
apartment of Henry Collins when you were there _
Mr. HISS. I have no recollection of it.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr. John Abt having been at the apartment of Henry Collins when you were there _

Mr. HISS. I have no recollection of it, but again I would Bot want
to deny ever having been on a social occasion in Mr. Collins' apartment
when either of those men might have been present.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr. Kramer ever having been there when
you were there?
Mr. HISS. I have no recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall Mr. Perlo having been there?
Mr. HISS. I don't even think I know Mr. Perlo. I certainly don't
recall him having been there.
MI'. Nixon, may I just interpose one thing?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. My recollection is that Henry Collins was living not in
an apartment but in a house with four or five roommates, four or five
young men in Government who took it together somewhere in the
Dupont Circle region at the time when he first came down to Washington.
Mr. NIXON. During the period of approximately 1934-38 did you
ever pay any money to Henry Collins?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall ever having paid him any money for any
purpose, even a personal transaction, Mr. NIXON.
Mr. NIXON. I am now showing you two pictures of Mr. Whittaker Chambers, also known as Carl, who testified that he knew you between the years 1934-37, and that he saw you in 1939.
I ask you now, after looking at those pictures, if you can remember that person either as Whittaker Chambers or as Carl or as any other individual you have met.
Mr. HISS. May I recall to the committee the testimony I gave in the public session when I was shown another photograph of Mr. Whittaker Chambers, and I had prior to taking the stand tried to get as many newspapers that had photographs of Mr. Chambers as I could.
I testified then that I could not swear that I had never seen the man whose picture was shown me. Actually the face has a certain familiarity. I think I also testified to that.
It is not according to the photograph a very distinctive or unusual face. I would like very much to see the individual face to face. I had hoped that would happen before. I still hope it will happen today.
I am not prepared to say that I have never seen the man whose pictures are now shown me. I said that when I was on the stand when a different picture was shown me. I cannot recall any person with distinctness and definiteness whose picture this is, but it is not completely unfamiliar.
Whether I am imagining that or not I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't want to testify without seeing the man, hearing him talk, getting some much more tangible basis for judging the person and the personality.
Mr. NIXON. Would your answer be any different if this individual were described to you as one who had stayed overnight in your house on several occasions?
Mr. HISS. I think, Mr. Nixon, let me say this: In the course of my service in Government from 1933 to 1947 and the previous year 1929-30, and as a lawyer I have had a great many people who have visited in my house.
I have tried to recall in the last week or so anyone who would know my house whom I wouldn't know very well: There are many people that have come to my house on social occasions or on semibusiness occasions whom I probably wouldn't recall at all.
As far as staying overnight in my house is concerned--
Mr. NIXON. On several occasions.
Mr. HISS. On several occasions.
Mr. NIXON. On several occasions.
Mr. HISS. I can't believe, Mr. Nixon, that anyone could have stayed in my house when I was there--
Mr. NIXON. When you were there.
Mr. HISS. -Overnight on several occasions without my being able to recall the individual; and if this is a picture of anyone, I would find it very difficult to believe that that individual could have stayed in my house when I was there on several occasions overnight and his :face not be more :familiar than it is.
Mr. Nixon--
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. I don't want to suggest any innovations in your procedure, but I do want to say specifically that I do hope I will have an opportunity actually to see the individual.
Mr. NIXON. It is going to be arranged. I might say that before arranging the meeting, we want to be certain that there IS no question of mistaken identity, as well as possible, and also that we had a clear conflict on certain pieces of testimony that had been given by both sides, and that we are getting now.
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. NIXON. I might say this, too: That Mr. Chambers, as you may be aware of newspaper accounts, appeared in executive session before us on Saturday.
Mr. HISS. Saturday a week ago, I think.
Mr. NIXON. Just 2 days after you appeared.
Mr. HISS. I saw newspaper accounts of that.
Mr. NIXON. At that time we went into the situation with him, showed him pictures of you, and he declared without question you were the man.
For that reason we wanted to be sure that you had the same opportunity before we went into open session. Obviously, as you can see, an open session will involve a considerable amount of publicity, and we were thinking that if that could be avoided, that it should be
avoided. It is quite apparent now, even so :far as we have gone, that eventually that is going to occur, but I wanted to go into a few more questions here first.
Now, you have never paid any money to Peters?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid any money to Carl?
Mr. HISS. Never paid any money to Carl.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid any money to Henry Collins that you can recall?
Mr. HISS. I can't recall it even on a personal basis.
Mr. NIXON. Never paid dues to the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony now is that you are not a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Never been a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Never been a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Or of any underground organization connected with the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Not any underground organizations connected with the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Do you have any children, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. I have two children.
Mr. NIXON. You have two children. Could you give us their ages?
Mr. HISS. One will be 22-he is my stepson-will be 22 September 19 next. His name is Timothy Hobson. He has been my stepson since he was 3 years old. I was married in 1929.
I have one other son who is now 7. He was 7 the day when I testified publicly before this committee, August 5. He was born August 5, 1941. His name is Anthony Hiss.
Mr. NIXON. He was born after this period of 1934-37, which is in question.
Mr. HISS. He was born after the period you are talking about.
Mr. NIXON. Did you testify before what your wife's name was?
Mr. HISS. Her name was Priscilla Fansler, her maiden name. Her first marriage was to a Mr. Hobson, H-o-b-s-o-n.
Mr. NIXON. Where did she come from? What town?
Mr. HISS. She was born in Evanston, Ill., but spent most of her early life outside of Philadelphia.
Mr. NIXON. In Paoli?
Mr. HISS. Frazer.
Mr. NIXON. Is that near Paoli?
Mr. HISS. It is on the main line not far from there. She went to school there and she went to school actually, I think, in Bryn Mawr, as well as to college in Bryn Mawr.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. Frazer and Paoli are a few miles apart?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did she live there on a farm?
Mr. HISS. Her father was in the insurance business, and he acquired a small place-I suppose it could be called a farm-from which he commuted to his insurance business.
Mr. NIXON. Would it be possible, Mr. Hiss, for Mrs. Hiss to appear in executive session to corroborate your testimony?
Mr. HISS. It would be possible for her to appear in executive session. I believe she would corroborate my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. As you can see, the more corroboration we have for your
story, the better it is going to be from your standpoint, and also from the standpoint of the committee. I will say that both you and Mr. Chambers are as convincing witnesses as I have ever seen. I have so stated publicly, but we would like to hear Mrs. Hiss, if that is possible.
Mr. HISS. That certainly is possible. It is her privilege.
Mr. NIXON. Is she in town?
Mr. HISS. She is in Peacham, Vt., where we spend our summers.
Mr. NIXON. Would it be possible to hear her tomorrow? I realize it is short notice.
Mr. HISS. She would have to catch the night train.
Mr. HERBERT. I can't hear you.
Mr. HISS. Mrs. Hiss is now in Peacham, Vt., a town about 50 miles this side of the Canadian border in northern Vermont. It would be possible For her to take the night train down, which is the night train I came down on last night. I spent the week-end in Peacham. It has been our custom to spend the summers in Peacham for about 10 years.
My -family spends the summers there, and I try to spend week-ends with them when I can.
Mrs. Hiss would either have to bring 7-year-old Tony with her, or try to find someone to stay with him while she came down.
Mr. NIXON. I realize the difficulty involved and, as I say, we want to avoid, in -fact, I would say, two things: We want to avoid a public session in this case and also we want to avoid any publicity on it, but we would like to hear Mrs. Hiss in executive session tomorrow afternoon, it possible.
Mr. HISS. I think the fair thing under the circumstances would be for me to try to reach her by telephone. We have no telephone in the house in Peacham. She would have to take the message in the general store.
Mr. NIXON. If you could do that-and, incidentally, we will make the phone available because we want to pay the charges ourselves-it would be greatly appreciated by the committee.
Mr. HISS. Would you like me to telephone her now, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. NIXON. We could do this, Mr. HISS. Mr. Stripling has just suggested that a subcommittee could meet Mrs. Hiss, for example, in New York it that would be more convenient.
Mr. HISS. The same train gets into New York at 8: 10 when it is on time that gets in here at 1:10.
Mr. NIXON. In other words, we could hear her tomorrow morning if we were in New York.
Mr. HISS. That is correct, and tomorrow afternoon if you sit here.
Mr. NIXON. That would mean she wouldn't have to come clear to Washington with the youngster and also it would mean that there Washington with the youngster and also it would mean that would be absolutely no publicity, which I must say we are very anxious about in this case. After the hearing, if you will make the call, we could arrange to meet her in New York.
Mr. HISS. Would you tell me where you would like to meet her, and I would like the privilege of calling her now because she is going to have to make arrangements. We are about 35 miles from the train.
I am driven over by a taxi driver, and just what his engagements are I don't know. I imagine she would want someone to stay with Tony while she is away-one of her friends.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's not do that at this time. Let's proceed with the questioning and then go ahead with it.
Mr. NIXON. I don't think we will take too much longer, Mr. Hiss possibly 30 minutes.
Now, is your son Timothy still living with you?
Mr. HISS. No; my son Timothy is now living on his own as an independent earning male.
Mr. NIXON. Where is he at the present time?
Mr. HISS. I think he is on his way back from California at the present time. He was expecting to return on the 16th, and I believe today is the 16th.
Mr. NIXON. Is he living in New York?
Mr. HISS. He is living in New York.
Mr. NIXON. Could you give us the address of your son in New York?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, you are asking me about a subject which is one of rather deep concern to me.
Mr. NIXON. I understand.
Mr. HISS. My son served in the Navy, V-12. He went in as a very young man. When he left the Navy, he did not wish to go on with college. I did wish him to go on. He had had some college while in the Navy V-12 program. He feels the need of independence of his parents at the present time. He is being what people in Vermont call not only independent, but "indegoddampendent." That is Vermontism.
I have an address from my son which I am told is not his present address. He has not told me or his mother in the past few months what his present address is. I expect he will do so. This is not the first time in the last year when he has changed address and told me
after the event instead of before. I believe he tried to reach me by telephone the night before I testified here, because a phone call came in for me at the hotel from Los Angeles and I couldn't figure who it was and didn't know he was in Los Angeles at the time. I have since learned he was in Los Angeles and I believe he was calling me.
I learned from the same person who knew he was in Los Angeles that he would be back in New York on the 16th. I don't know of my own knowledge. I can give you the address in New York. I don't think you can reach him there.
I wonder if you would mind if I gave you instead the address of his doctor, because he has been consulting a psychiatrist in the last couple of years.
Mr. NIXON. Would the doctor know where he is?
Mr. HISS. He will get in touch with the doctor as soon as he returns.
The doctor has his other address, and I didn't think it appropriate to ask the doctor for his address. It is Dr. Abram Kardiner. You will understand why this is a very difficult subject to talk about because I love my stepson very deeply. Many people take an exaggerated view of what psychiatric assistance means.
Mr. NIXON. You can be sure, Mr. Hiss, that there will be absolutely no statement whatever concerning these statements.
Mr. HISS. Dr. Kardiner is now on his vacation, but would be glad to come to New York and would be glad to answer the telephone. I am sure as a physician any call to his office in New York-he lives at 1100 Park Avenue, which is the corner of Eighty-ninth Street and Park Avenue. I think I have his number in the country, but I am sure any call to his office they will immediately tell you how to reach him at his country place.
Mr. STRIPLING. How do you spell his full name?
Mr. HISS. A-b-r-a-m K-a-r-d-i-n-e-r.
Mr. STRIPLING. 1100 Park Avenue?
Mr. HISS. 1100 Park Avenue, New York.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, could you give the committee the name of any servants you had during the period 1934 to 1937?
Mr. STRIPLING. May I interrupt? Does he go under the name of Timothy Hiss or Timothy Hobson?
Mr. HISS. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. Nixon, may I raise a question at this point?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. I have been angered and hurt by one thing in the course of this committee testimony, and that was by the attitude which I think Mr. Mundt took when I was testifying publicly and which, it seems to me, you have been taking today, that you have a conflict of testimony between two witnesses-,-I restrained myself with some difficulty from commenting on this at the public hearing, and I would like to say it on this occasion, which isn't a public hearing.
Mr. NIXON. Say anything you like.
Mr. HISS. It seems there is no impropriety in saying it. You today and the acting chairman publicly have taken the attitude when you have two witnesses, one of whom is a confessed former Communist, the other is me, that you simply have two witnesses saying contradictory things as between whom you find it most difficult to decide on
credibility.
Mr. Nixon, I do not know what Mr. Whittaker Chambers testified to your committee last Saturday. It is necessarily my opinion of him from what he has already said that I do know that he is not capable of telling the truth or does not desire to, and I honestly have the feeling that details of my personal life which I give honestly can be used to my disadvantage by Chambers then ex post facto knowing those facts.
I would request that I hear Mr. Chambers' story of his alleged knowledge of me. I have seen newspaper accounts, Mr. Nixon, that you spent the week end-whether correct or not, I do not know-at Mr. Chambers' farm in New Jersey.
Mr. NIXON. That is quite incorrect.
Mr. HISS. It is incorrect.
Mr. NIXON. Yes, sir. I can say, as you did a moment ago, that I have never spent the night with Mr. Chambers.
Mr. HISS. Now, I have been cudgeling my brains, particularly on the train coming down this morning, and I had 3 or 4 hours on the train between New York and Washington, as to who could have various details about my family. Many people could..
Mr. Nixon, I do not wish to make it easier for anyone who, for whatever motive I cannot understand, is apparently endeavoring to destroy me, to make that man's endeavors any easier. I think in common fairness to my own self-protection and that of my family and my family's good name and my own, I should not be asked to give details which somehow he may hear and then may be able to use as if he knew them before. I would like him to say all he knows about me now. What I have done is public record, where I have lived is public record. Let him tell you all he knows, let that be made public,
and then let my record be checked against those facts instead of my being asked, Mr. Nixon, to tell you personal facts about myself which, if they come to his ears, could sound very persuasive to other people that he had known me at some prior time.
Mr. NIXON. The questions I have asked you to date, Mr. Hiss, if you will recall them, have all been facts that could be corroborated by third parties. Now, the question of whether or not, the question of who your servants were, I will tell you very frankly it is purely for the purpose of corroboration and it will be the intention of the committee, if possible, to find one of the servants to see whether or not they will corroborate the story.
Now you, of course, are under no compulsion to give the committee the names of the servants, but the purpose is that.
Now, the second point I wish to make is this: Of course, there is a very serious implication in your statement, and that is that the committee's purpose in questioning you today is to get information with which we can coach Mr. Chambers so that he can more or less build a web around you.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, I meant no such implication.
Mr. NIXON. You can be very sure when I say this testimony is going to be in executive session, it will be. The same assurance was given to Mr. Chambers.
Mr. HISS. May I please, before that point gets cold-I meant no such implication. You have identified a number of people who are present in the room. A record is being kept. The people in this gentleman's office will process the record, a number of people that none of us here can be sure of now will see this record and will have the information
which is contained in it. You are dealing with something, Mr. Nixon, which is very important to you as an official. You are dealing with something which is very important to me not only as a former official and one interested in the security of the United States, but you are also dealing with something which affronts me personally in a way which it does not affect the members of this committee personally.
Mr. STRIPLING. May I say something?
Mr. Hiss, I can assure you that as far as the members of the committee I have talked to are concerned, they have a very open mind on this thing and I certainly do, but this testimony you speak of has already been turned over to the United States attorney, including the executive testimony.
Mr. HISS. Certainly.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers' testimony has.
Mr. STRIPLING. We just got this picture. I listened to his testimony in New York and I can assure you that there was no prearrangement or anything else with Mr. Chambers, but here is what he did. He sat there and testified for hours. He said he spent a week in your house and he just rattled off details like that. He has either made a study of your life in great detail or he knows you-, one or the other, or he is incorrect.
Mr. HISS. Could I ask you to ask him some questions?
Mr. STRIPLING. Here is a larger picture. Let the record show this larger picture taken by the Associated Press photo on August 3, 1948, of Mr. Mundt and Mr. Whittaker Chambers and, as the record previously stated, Mr. Chambers is much heavier now than he was in 1937 or 1938.
Does this picture refresh your memory in any way, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. It looks like the very same man I had seen in the other pictures of, and I see Mr. Mundt and him in the same picture. The face is definitely not an unfamiliar face. Whether I am imagining it, whether it is because he looks like a lot of other people, I don't know, but I have never known anyone who had the relationship with me that this man has testified to and that, I think, is the important thing here, gentlemen. This man may have known me, he may have been in my house. I have had literally hundreds of people in my house in the course of the time I lived in Washington.
The issue is not whether this man knew me and I don't remember him. The issue is whether he had a particular conversation that he has said he had with me and which I have denied and whether I am a member of the Communist Party or ever was, which he has said and which I have denied.
If I could see the man face to face, I would perhaps have some inkling as to whether he ever had known me personally.
I have met within the past week a man who said he worked on the same staff in a confidential relationship at San Francisco that I did who definitely knew me, and I have no recollection of ever having seen that man.
The CHAIRMAN. May I ask a few questions?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, would you be able to recall a person if that person positively had been in your house three or four times, we will say, in the last 10 years?
Mr. HISS. 1 would say that if he had spent the night--
Mr. STRIPLING. Ten years?
Mr. NIXON. Fifteen years.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. HISS. I would say if he had spent the night how many times did you say?
Mr. STRIPLING. He spent a week there.
Mr. HISS. A whole week at a time continuously?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. And I was there at the same time?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, I could not fail to recall such a man if he were now in my presence.
The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. You are positive then that if Mr. X spent a week in your house in the past 15 years you would recognize him today, assuming that Mr. X looks today something like what he looked then?
Mr. HISS. Exactly, if he hadn't had a face lifting.
The CHAIRMAN. No doubt in your mind?
Mr. HISS. I have no doubt whatsoever.
The CHAIRMAN. Now, here is a man who says he spent a week in your house in the last 15 years. Do you recognize him?
Mr. HISS. I do not recognize him from that picture.
Mr. NIXON. Did that man spend a week in your house in the last 15 years?
Mr. HISS. I cannot say that man did, but I would like to see him.
The CHAIRMAN. You say you cannot believe, but I would like to have a little more definite answer if you could make it more definite. Would you say he did or did ,.not spend a week in your house?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, I hope you will not think I am being unreasonable when I say I am not prepared to testify on the basis of a photograph. On the train coming down this morning I searched my recollection of any possible person that this man could be confused with or could have got information from about me.
The CHAIRMAN. Then you are not prepared to testify on this subject from a photograph?
Mr. HISS. I am not prepared to testify on the basis of a photograph. I would want to hear the man's voice.
The CHAIRMAN. If the man himself came in here, you would be able to say yes or no?
Mr. HISS. I think I would, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. You think you would.
Mr. HISS. I can't believe a man would have changed as much as that, and I am absolutely prepared to testify that nobody, that man or any other man, had any such conversation with me in my house or anywhere else as he has testified to.
Mr. STRIPLING. What conversations did he testify he had with you in your house?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chambers, according to the record that I read, he said that he came to my house and pled with me to break with the Communist Party, and that I refused, and that I had tears in my eyes, and that the reason I gave was something about the communist Party line.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, let me explain this. Mr. Chambers, as indicated, did testify that he spent a week in your house. He also testified to other facts concerning his acquaintanceship with you-alleged facts, I should say-and I want to point out that the committee by getting answers to completely objective questions from you will be in a position to go certainly to third parties and to find out whether or not Mr. Chambers has committed perjury.
Now, on one point it is pretty clear that you have indicated that Mr. Chambers must have committed perjury because he said he spent a week in your house.
Now, these other matters to which Mr. Chambers has testified involve the same type of testimony. I want to say when Mr. Chambers appeared, he was instructed that every answer he gave to every question would be material and he was instructed off the record before that that a material question would subject him to perjury. So consequently, as
you see, a matter of membership in the Communist Party is one thing because that is a matter which might be and probably would be concealed, but a matter of objective items concerning: his relationship with you, his alleged relationship with you, can be confirmed in some cases by third parties and that, frankly, is the purpose of these questions.
Mr. HISS. May I say one thing for the record?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. I have written a name on this pad in front of me of a person whom I knew in 1933 and 1934 who not only spent some time in my house but sublet my apartment. That man certainly spent more than a week, not while I was in the same apartment. I do not recognize the photographs as possibly being: this man. If I hadn't seen the morning papers with an account of statements that he knew the inside of my house, I don't think I would even have thought of this name. I want to see Chambers face to face and see if he can be this individual. I do not want and I don't think I ought to be asked to testify now that man's name and everything I can remember about him. I have written the name on this .piece of paper. I have given the name to two friends of mine before I came in this hearing. I can only repeat, and perhaps I am being overanxious about the possibility
of unauthorized disclosure of testimony, that I don't think in my present frame of mind that it is fair to my position, my own protection, that I be asked to put down here of record personal facts about myself which, if they came to the ears of someone who had for no reason I can understand a desire to injure me, would assist him in that endeavor.
Mr. NIXON. This man who spent the time in 1933 and 1934 is still a man with whom you are acquainted?
Mr. HISS. He is not.
Mr. NIXON. And where were you living at that time?
Mr. HISS. He was not named Carl and not Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Where were you living at that time?
Mr. HISS. I have again written down here to the best of my recollection because I have not checked down with leases-this is something I did on the train coming down and the leases are in my house in New York-where I believed I lived from June of 1933 until September 1943. Again, Mr. Nixon, if I give the details of where I was, it is going to be very easy if this information gets out for someone to say then ex post facto, "I saw Hiss in such and such a house." Actually, all he has to do is look it up in the telephone directory and find where it is.
The CHAIRMAN. The chairman wants to say this: Questions will be asked and the committee will expect to get very detailed answers to the questions. Let's not ramble all around the lot here. You go ahead and ask questions and I want the witness to answer.
Mr. NIXON. Your testimony is that this man you knew in 1933 and 1934 was in one of the houses you lived in?
Mr. HISS. I sublet my apartment to the man whose name I have written down.
Mr. NIXON. But you were not there at the same time?
Mr. HISS. I didn't spend a week in the same apartment, with him. He did spend a day or two in my house when he moved in.
Mr. NIXON. This was the apartment you lived in between 1933 and 1934?
Mr. HISS. It is exactly that apartment-1934 and 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Between 1934 and 1935?
Mr. HISS. That is right.'
Mr. NIXON. When you sublet your apartment? There was no other apartment and you can't testify as to what apartment that was?
Mr. HISS. I can testify to the best of my recollection. If this committee feels, in spite of what I have said-
The CHAIRMAN. Never mind feelings. You let Mr. Nixon ask the questions and you go ahead and answer it.
Mr. HISS. I want to be sure Mr. Nixon definitely wants me to answer responsively in spite of my plea that I don't think he should ask me. But if he does-Mr. Nixon also asked me some questions in the public hearing that I didn't want to answer, and I took the same position that if Mr. Nixon insisted on an answer after he knew my position, I will answer. I will give every fact of where I lived.
Mr. STRIPLING. Let the record show, Mr. Hiss, you brought up this ex post facto business. Your testimony comes as ex post facto, testimony to the testimony of Mr. Chambers. He is already on record, and I am not inferring that you might know what he testified to, but certainly the United States attorney's office has several copies.
Mr. HISS. I do not and made no attempt to find out.
Mr. NIXON. Not only does the United States attorney's office have copies of Mr. Chambers' testimony before us on the subject-and you can confirm that by calling Mr. Morris Fay of that office, because he has two copies; he requested and received, and he will receive this testimony today. He will receive this testimony today, because I will tell you that he asked for it just 30 minutes before you walked into this room, and he will get it just as soon as we have completed this case. Now, quite obviously, I think that you can see that we are not attempting at this time to have you testify to facts with which we are
going to brief Mr. Chambers. .What we are trying to do is test the credibility of Mr. Chambers, and you are the man who can do it, and you can help us out by answering these questions and, frankly, I must insist.
Mr. HISS. If you insist, I will, of course, answer. May I make one observation?
Mr. NIXON. Yes..
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chambers, I believe, appeared in executive session before this committee before he testified publicly; is that correct?
Mr. STRIPLING. No, sir.
Mr. HISS. There was a press report to that effect. Did he not meet with you in executive session?
Mr. STRIPLING. You mean the morning of the session?
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. The session lasted about 2 minutes. No testimony other than--
Mr. STRIPLING. The committee saw him--
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. It was a matter of getting his name and where he worked.
Mr. HISS. Did you not know his testimony-that he was going to testify about me?
Mr. STRIPLING. No.
Mr. HISS. After the public testimony, this committee met further with Mr. Chambers, who was able as of that date, I assume, to add new testimony that you did not have before, which you will excuse me for saying, was ex post facto my testimony.
Mr. NIXON. Forty-eight hours after your testimony.
Mr. HISS. That is right, and my testimony was public testimony.
Mr. NIXON. That is correct.
Mr. HISS. He has now testified and I would assume that the United States attorney's office will want further testimony from him.
Mr. NIXON. And from you.
Mr. HISS. I certainly assume so and hope so. If what I testify to in this committee today through no fault of any official of this committee or any member of its staff comes to his attention, as my public testimony, of course, came to his attention, he will again be able to testify ex post facto to my testimony of today.
Now, I want that on the record. If you think, as I don't regard this body as an inquisitorial body determining crime, if you wish to ask me detailed questions and think it is your duty to ask me, it is my duty to answer, and I have said all I want to say. I am not evading the question.
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Hiss, let me say this to you now-and this is removed of all technicalities, it is just a man-to-man impression of the whole situation. I think it is pertinent.
I don't surrender my place on this committee to any individual who has an open mind, particularly regarding you and Mr. Chambers. I am not interested in who is lying except to the extent that it will only give us an insight to further the case and that we are about to find out whether espionage was in effect in this country to the detriment of the security of this country.
I do not take the stand and never have taken the stand in this committee that anything is involved other than to get to the facts. I have tried just as hard in the public hearings to impeach those witnesses who are assumed to be so-called committee witnesses as I have
tried to impeach the other witnesses. I think the record will speak for that.
We did not know anything Mr. Chambers was going to say. I did not hear your name mentioned until it was mentioned in open hearing.
Mr. HISS. I didn't know that.
Mr. HEBERT. As I say, I am not trying to be cagey or anything, but trying to put it on the line as certainly one member of this committee who has an open mind and up to this point don't know which one of the two is lying, but I will tell you right now and I will tell you exactly what I told Mr. Chambers so that will be a matter of record, too:
Either you or Mr. Chambers is lying.
Mr. HISS. That is certainly true.
Mr. HEBERT. And whichever one of you is lying is the greatest actor that America has ever produced. Now, I have not come to the conclusion yet. which one of you is lying and I am trying to find the facts. Up to a few moments ago you have been very open, very
cooperative. Now, you have hedged. You may be standing on what you consider your right and I am not objecting to that. I am not pressing you to identify a picture when you should be faced with the man. That is your right.
Now, as to this inquiry which you make much over, and not without cause, perhaps, we met Mr. Chambers 48 hours after you testified in open session. Mr. Chambers did not know or have any inclination of any indication as to the questions that we were going to ask him, and we probed him, as Mr. Stripling says, for hours and the committee, the three of us-Mr. Nixon, Mr. McDowell, Mr. Stripling, and myself-and we literally ran out of questions. There wasn't a thing that came to our minds that we didn't ask him about, these little details, to probe his own testimony or rather to test his own credibility.
There couldn't have been a possible inkling as to what we were going to say about
minor details, and he could not have possibly by the farthest stretch of the imagination prepared himself to answer because he didn't know where the questions were coming from and neither did we because we questioned him progressively; so how he could have prepared himself to answer these details which we now, and Mr. Nixon has indicated, we are now checking and for the sake of corroboration-for my own part I can well appreciate the position you are in, but if I were in your position, I would do everything I humanly could to prove that Chambers is a liar instead of me.
Mr. HISS. I intend to.
Mr. HEBERT. And that is all we are trying to do here. Further than that, I recognize the fact that this is not an inquisitorial body to the extent of determining where the crime lies. We are not setting forth to determine ourselves as to which one of you two has perjured yourself. . That is the duty of the United States attorney for the District of Columbia. He is confronted with the fact that perjury has been committed before this congressional committee, which is a crime. It is up to the United States district attorney and the Department of Justice to prosecute that crime and that is all we are trying to do.
Now, if we can get the help from you and, as I say, if I were in your position I certainly would give all the help I could because it is the most fantastic story of unfounded--what motive would Chambers have or what motive--one of you has to have a motive. You say you are in a bad position, but don't you think that Chambers himself destroys himself if he is proven a liar? What motive would he have to pitch a $25,000 position as the respected senior editor of Time magazine out the window?
Mr. HISS. Apparently for Chambers to be a confessed former Communist and traitor to his country did not seem to him to be a blot on his record. He got his present job after he had told various agencies exactly that. I am sorry but I cannot but feel to such an extent that it is difficult for me to control myself that you can sit there, Mr. Hebert, and say to me casually that you have heard that man and you have heard me, and you just have no basis for judging which one is telling the truth. I don't think a judge determines the credibility of witnesses on that basis.
Mr. HEBERT. I am trying to tell you that I absolutely have an open mind and am trying to give you as fair a hearing as I could possibly give Mr. Chambers or yourself. The fact that Mr. Chambers is a self-confessed traitor-and I admit he is--the fact that he is
a self-confessed former member of the Communist Party--which I admit he is--has no bearing at all on whether the facts that he told--or, rather, the alleged facts that he told--
Mr. HISS. Has no bearing on his credibility?
Mr. HEBERT. No; because, Mr. Hiss, I recognize the fact that maybe my background is a little different from yours, but I do know police methods and I know crime a great deal, and you show me a good police force and I will show you the stool pigeon who turned them in. Show me a police force with a poor record, and I will show you a police force without a stool pigeon. We have to have people like Chambers or Miss Bentley to come in and tell us. I am not giving Mr. Chambers any great credit for his previous life. I am trying to find out if he has reformed come of the greatest saints in history were pretty bad before they were saints. Are you going to take away their sainthood because of their previous lives? Are you not going to believe them after they have reformed?
I don't care who gives the facts to me, whether a confessed liar, thief, or murderer, if it is facts. That is all I am interested in.
Mr. HISS. You have made your position clear. I would like to raise a separate point. Today as I came down on the train I read a statement-I think it was in the New York News-that a member of this committee, an unidentified member of this committee had told the press man who wrote the article that this committee believed or had reason to believe from talking to Chambers that Chambers had personally known Hiss, not that Chambers had had the conversation which is the issue here, that Chambers had been in Hiss' house.
That is not the issue before this committee. You are asking me to tell you all the facts that I know of people who have been in my house or who have known me whom I would not feel absolutely confident are people I know all about, personal friends, people I feel I know through and through. I am not prepared to say on the basis of the photograph--
Mr. HEBERT. We understand.
Mr. HISS. -That the man, that he is not the man whose name I have written down here were I to testify to that, what assurance have I that some member of this committee wouldn't say to the press that Hiss confessed knowing Chambers?
In the first place, I have testified and repeated that I have never known anybody by the name of Whittaker Chambers. I am not prepared to testify I have never seen that man.
Mr. HEBERT. You have said that.
Mr. STRIPLING. Have you ever seen that one [indicating picture]?
The CHAIRMAN. What is the question?
Mr. STRIPLING. Have you ever seen the individual whose photograph appears there?
Mr. HISS. So far as I know: no.
Mr. STRIPLING. You have never seen that person?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. For the record, the issue is whether Chambers did have the conversation with you, that is admitted, but the only way we can establish the fact that Chambers had the occasion to have the conversation with you is we have to establish the fact that Hiss
knew Chambers and Chambers knew Hiss, and this is very pertinent.
The CHAIRMAN. Let's go on with the question.
Mr. NIXON. If Chambers' credibility on the question of whether he knew you or not is destroyed, obviously you can see that this statement that he had a conversation with you and that you were a member of the Communist Party, which was made on the basis of knowledge, would also be destroyed and that is exactly the basis upon which this questioning is being conducted, I can assure you, because those are personal matters; whether you are a member of the Communist Party and whether he had a conversation with you individually is something that no third party can corroborate one way or the other. But these other facts are matters which third parties can corroborate. They won't prove, obviously, even if there is agreement on all facts, that this man knew you, but if there is disagreement on these facts, they will prove that Chambers is a perjurer and that is what we are trying to find out. If we prove he is a perjurer on the basis of his testimony now, the necessity of going into the rest of the matter will be obviated.
Mr. HISS. But if he is able through my action to make a more plausible story of having known me or if he has in fact known me under circumstances very different from those he has testified to, I think in my own self-protection I should have a chance to see him. I think that for me to be asked details that may get back, through no fault of yours--I can only repeat if this committee asks me to go on with this specific line of inquiry, I will certainly do it. I do not feel comfortable about being in a position to protect my own reputation because I don't think knowledge of any individual is the issue here.
Mr. NIXON. I see. Now, I will say this in asking the question that started this discussion--who were your servants during 1934 to 1937--that the purpose of that question is to attempt to find an individual who could corroborate either your story or Mr. Chambers' story that he did or did not spend time in your house between 1934 and 1937. If you will give us those names, we will appreciate it.
Mr. HISS. I am not sure how helpful I can be. The first maid we had when we were in Washington as far back as 1929, I think, was with us for a while when we returned in 1933. She was a Negro maid. Her name was Martha Pope.
Mr. NIXON. That was in 1933?
Mr. HISS. I think Martha returned to our service in 1933.
Mr. NIXON. She came back to you?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Started to work for you in 1933?
Mr. HISS. Yes. I am not positive she did and not positive how long she stayed with us, if she did come back.
Mr. NIXON. She was there for how long?
Mr. HISS. Some years previously.
Mr. NIXON. After 1933 do you recall how long she was with you?
Mr. HISS. No, I cannot; and I am not absolutely sure she came back.
Mr. NIXON. That was spelled P-o-p-e?0
Mr. HISS. P-o-p-e.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall anybody else that you had?
Mr. HISS. We had a servant that we got through an agency, I think, when we lived on P Street, and I am afraid I cannot recall her name. She wasn't with us very long. She wasn't very satisfactory.
Mr. NIXON. When you lived on P Street?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall the name. What agency did you get her through?
Mr. HISS. I would have to ask my wife.
Mr. NIXON. We will ask your wife tomorrow. Do you recall any others?
Mr. HISS. I don't even recall that we had a servant when we lived on Thirtieth Street. No; I am afraid I cannot recall the names. I can recall more recent ones.
Mr. NIXON. That is, more recent than 1937?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. That wouldn't help us. The only name you recall is that of Martha Pope and you can't say whether or not she was with you after 1933?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. We don't have the names of any servants in the period in question.
Mr. HISS. I am afraid I can't.
Mr. NIXON. If you had taken one of these servants home, would you be able to tell us where she lived, for example, from time to time?
Mr. HISS. Yes. You mean if I had driven a servant to where she lived?
Mr. NIXON. Yes; that is common practice. I do it, for example, with the woman who works for us.
Mr. HISS. I have done that.
Mr. NIXON. Does that refresh your memory?
Mr. HISS. I remember the area where Martha Pope lived. She lived over near Howard University. I have been over there to ask if she were available, if she were sick. I may have even taken her home. I don't remember.
Mr. NIXON. You don't remember the last time you had her, the last year?
Mr. HISS. No; I do not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Where did you live in 1934?
Mr. HISS. According to the best of my memory, without checking the leases-and I jotted these down this morning-from June 1933 until, I think, about September 1934, I lived on 0 Street in George-town. This testimony is on the assumption that what I said made a difference to the committee and you wish to follow this line of inquiry.
Mr. NIXON. Let me say this: The testimony as to where you have lived is, of course, information that can be obtained by an investigator in any event by checking the leases.
Mr.. HISS. It is in the telephone book and the leases are m the agencies.
Mr. STRIPLING. 0 Street was a house?
Mr. HISS. A house.
Mr. STRIPLING. How many rooms?.
Mr. HISS. A garage downstairs, one went up to the floor above the street level for living quarters. It was a living room, immediately behind it a dining room, then off into a kitchen in an L. I am not sure that I can testify exactly as to the lay-out of the bedrooms, which were above that.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to suggest that since we have become involved in this rather lengthy discussion, that the committee recess for 5 minutes so that this telephone call can be made to Mrs. Hiss. It is very important that Mrs. Hiss appear before the committee.
Now, does the committee want to discuss that?
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. I would add to that request for immediate executive session.
The CHAIRMAN. We will recess. Mr. Hiss, will you please remain in the other room.
(At this point there was a short executive session off the record and
with the witness out of the room.)
Mr. NIXON. The committee thought in the case of Mrs. Hiss that it would be an imposition to have her come on such short notice; and since there will be some members available for a week or so here in Washington, we thought we could arrange it at her and your convenience in the future.
Mr. HISS. That is kind of you.
The name of the man I brought in--and he may have no relation to this whole nightmare--is a man named George Crosley. I met him when I was working for the Nye committee. He was a writer. He hoped to sell articles to magazines about the munitions industry. I saw him, as I say, in my office over in the Senate Office Building, dozens of representatives of the press, students,-- people writing books, research people. It was our job to give them appropriate information out of the record, show them what had been put in the record. This fellow was writing a series of articles, according to my best recollection, free lancing, which he hoped to sell to one of the magazines.
He was pretty obviously not successful in financial terms, but as far as I know, wasn't actually hard up.
Mr. STRIPLING. What color was his hair?
Mr. HISS. Rather blondish, blonder than any of us here.
Mr. STRIPLING. Was he married?
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STRIPLING. Any children?
Mr. HISS. One little baby, as I remember it, and the way I know that was the subleasing point. After we had taken the house on P Street and had the apartment on our hands, he one day in the course of casual conversation said he was going to specialize all summer in getting his articles done here in Washington, didn't know what he was going to do, and was thinking of bringing his family.
I said, "You can have my apartment. It is not terribly cool, but it is up in the air near the Wardman Park." He said he had a wife and little baby. The apartment wasn't very expensive, and I think I let him have it at exact cost. My recollection is that he spent several nights in my house because his furniture van was delayed. We left several pieces of furniture behind. The P Street house belonged to a naval officer overseas and was
partly furnished, so we didn't need all our furniture, particularly during the summer months, and my recollection is that definitely, as one does with a tenant trying to make him agreeable and comfortable, we left several pieces of furniture behind until the fall, his van was delayed, wasn't going to bring all the furniture because he was going
to be there just during the summer, and we put them up 2 or 3 nights in a row, his wife and little baby.
Mr. NIXON. His wife and he and little baby did spend several nights in the house with you?
Mr. HISS. This man Crosley; yes.
Mr. NIXON. Can you describe his wife?
Mr. HISS. Yes; she was a rather strikingly dark person, very strikingly dark. I don't know whether I would recognize her again because I didn't see very much of her.
Mr. NIXON. How tall was this man, approximately?
Mr. HISS. Shortish.
Mr. NIXON. Heavy?
Mr. HISS. Not noticeably. That is why I don't believe it has any direct, but it could have an indirect, bearing.
Mr. NIXON. How about his teeth?
Mr. HISS. Very bad teeth. That is one of the things I particularly want to see Chambers about. This man had very bad teeth, did not take care of his teeth.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did he have most of his teeth or just weren't well cared for?
Mr. HISS. I don't think he had gapped teeth, but they were badly taken care of. They were stained and I would say obviously not attended to.
Mr. NIXON. Can you state again just when he first rented the apartment ?
Mr. HISS. I think it was about June of 1935. My recollection is--and again I have not checked the records--that is, I went with the Nye munitions committee in the early winter of 1934. I don't even remember now when the resolution was passed. In any event, I am
confident I was living on Twenty-ninth Street from December 1934 to June 1935 and that coincided with my service with the Nye committee. I say that because one reason we took the apartment was to reduce our living costs, because after I had been on loan from the
Department of Agriculture for some months, I thought it would only be a 2-month assignment or so, it became evident that I was to stay on longer if I should complete the job, and my deputy in the Department of Agriculture was doing all my work and not getting my salary and I did not feel it fair, so I resigned from the Department of Agriculture to go on with the Nye committee work at the Nye committee salary and contemplated that and talked it over with my deputy in the Department of Agriculture for some time before I did it. So I am sure, from my recollection, that the Twenty-ninth Street apartment is definitely linked in time with my service on the Nye committee.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of automobile did that fellow have?
Mr. HISS. No kind of automobile. I sold him an automobile. I had an old Ford that I threw in with the apartment and had been trying to trade it in and get rid of it. I had an old, old Ford we had kept for sentimental reasons. We got it just before we were married
in 1929.
Mr. STRIPLING. 'Vas it a model A or model T?
Mr. HISS. Early A model with a trunk on the back, a slightly collegiate model.
Mr. STRIPLING. What color?
Mr. HISS. Dark blue. It wasn't very fancy but it had a sassy little trunk on the back.
Mr. NIXON. You sold that car?
Mr. HISS. I threw it in. He wanted a way to get around and I said, "Fine, I want to get rid of it. I have another car, and we kept it for sentimental reasons, not worth a damn." I let him have it along with the rent.
Mr. NIXON. Where did you move from there?
Mr. HISS. Again my best recollection is that we stayed on P Street only 1 year because the whole heating plant broke down in the middle of the winter when I was quite ill, and I think that we moved from 2905 P Street to 1241 Thirtieth Street about September 1936. I recall that quite specifically though we can check it from the records, because I remember Mr. Sayre, who was my chief in the State Department, who had been my professor at law school, saying he wanted to drive by and see where I was living. I remember the little house on Thirtieth Street which we had just got, a new development, was the little house I
drove him by, and it must have been September or October 1936, just after starting to work in the State Department.
Mr. NIXON. Going back to this man, do you know how many days approximately he stayed with you?
Mr. HISS. I don't think more than a couple of times. He may have come back. I can't remember when it was I finally decided it wasn't any use expecting to collect from him, that I had been a sucker and he was a sort of deadbeat; not a bad character, but I think he just was using me for a soft touch.
Mr. NIXON. You said before he moved in your apartment he stayed in your house with you and your wife about how many days?
Mr. HISS. I would say a couple of nights. I don't think it was longer than that.
Mr. NIXON. A couple of nights?
Mr. HISS. During the delay of the van arriving.
Mr. NIXON. Wouldn't that be longer than 2 nights?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so. I wouldn't swear that he didn't come back again some later time after the lease and say, "I can't find a hotel. Put me up overnight," or something of that sort. I wouldn't swear Crosley wasn't in my house maybe a total of 3 or 4 nights
altogether.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall any subjects of conversation during that period?
Mr. HISS. We talked backwards and forwards about the Munitions Committee work. He told various stories that I recall of his escapades. He purported to be a cross between Jim Tully, the author, and Jack London. He had been everywhere. I remember he told
me he had personally participated in laying down the tracks of the street cars in Washington, D. C. He had done that for local color, or something. He had worked right with the road gang laying tracks in Washington, D. C.
Mr. STRIPLING. Was his middle initial "L"?
Mr. HISS. That I wouldn't know. There may be a lease record, must be some record with the apartment house of who the person was who was my subtenant.
Mr. NIXON. With the apartment house?
Mr. HISS. I think H. L. Rust were the agents.
Mr. NIXON. You can't recall the names of any servants other than the one you mentioned?
Mr. HISS. While you were out of the room I thought of a woman I described as being unsatisfactory. She was rather sullen in personality, and I think her name was Ellen. I think we called her "Sullen Ellen," but I may be wrong on that. I think she was our
servant when we lived on P Street.
Mr. NIXON. You gave this Ford car to Crosley?
Mr. HISS. Threw it in along with the apartment and charged the rent and threw the car in at the same time.
Mr. NIXON. In other words, added a little to the rent to cover the car?
Mr. HISS. No; I think I charged him exactly what I was paying for the rent and threw the car in in addition. I don't think I got any compensation.
Mr. STRIPLING. You just gave him the car?
Mr. HISS. I think the car just went right in with it. I don't remember whether we had settled on the terms of the rent before the car question came up, or whether it came up and then on the basis of the car and the apartment I said, "Well, you ought to pay the full rent."
Mr. STRIPLING. Are you hard of hearing in your left ear?
Mr. HISS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. STRIPLING. I noticed you had your hand up to your ear.
Mr. HISS. If I have done that, it is only when I wanted to be sure I was hearing.
Mr. STRIPLING. You did that before the committee in open session and did then. If you are having difficulty, we can all move this way.
Mr. HISS. I am not aware of it and never heard any doctor say so.
Mr. NIXON. I have a few more of these questions, which I feel will help us a great deal if you are willing to answer them.
Mr. HISS. I am willing to answer any question you ask.
Mr. NIXON. I assure you, as I have before, that as far as the committee is concerned the cold record, Mr. Chambers' testimony, and your testimony are going to have to stand up together.
Mr. HISS. We won't go into that question again.
Mr. STRIPLING. May I ask another question?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. When you had this Ford car do you remember where you bought your gasoline?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't remember where we bought gas when we were living on Twenty-ninth Street. On 0 Street I am afraid I don't remember whether I had a regular place. I remember a regular place in recent years, and even earlier, but when we first came down I don't think we had a regular place.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of car did you get?
Mr. HISS. A Plymouth.
Mr. STRIPLING. A Plymouth?
Mr. HISS. Plymouth sedan.
Mr. STRIPLING. Four-door?
Mr. HISS. I think I have always had only two-door.
Mr. STRIPLING. What kind of a bill of sale did you give Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I think I just turned over-in the District you get a certificate of title, I think it is. I think I just simply turned it over to him.
Mr. STRIPLING. Handed it to him?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. No evidence of 'any transfer. Did he record the title?
Mr. HISS. That I haven't any idea. This is a car which had been sitting on the streets in snows for a year or two. I once got a parking fine because I forgot where it was parked. We were using the other car.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do those model Fords have windshield wipers?
Mr. HISS. You had to work them yourself.
Mr. STRIPLING. Hand operated?
Mr. HISS. I think that is the best I can recall.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall the voice of this fellow Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I was trying to recall that this morning. It was a low voice. He speaks with a low and rather dramatic roundness.
Mr. STRIPLING. Would you say it is a subdued voice?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't particularly think that is so. It is not very loud, but the main thing I have in mind would be a deepness, a lowness.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. A heavy voice?
Mr. HISS. Lower voice than I have.
Mr. NIXON. Was he a man pretty talkative about his accomplishments, et cetera?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. There are matters which I wish to go into now to which Mr. Chambers has given categorical answers. I am going to put the questions objectively, as you can see. I am not going to try to lead you one way or the other. It will be very helpful as the two records look together to see how accurate he is in this case.

part 2

I want to say first of all, so that it won't come up, that I realize that the matters which are covered are matters which third parties could corroborate, and that is the reason we ask these particular questions. Again for the purpose of just checking the veracity of Mr.
Chambers and your testimony. It will help us to check it again.
What were the nicknames you and your wife had?
Mr. HISS. My wife, I have always called her "Prossy."
Mr. NIXON. What does she call you?
Mr. HISS. Well, at one time she called me quite frequently "Hill," H-i-l-l.
Mr. NIXON. What other name?
Mr. HISS. "Hilly," with a "y."
Mr. NIXON. What other name did you call her?
Mr. STRIPLING. What did you say?
Mr. HISS. She caned me "Hill" or "Hilly." I called her "Pross" or "Prossy" almost exclusively. I don't think any other nickname.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever call her "Dilly"?
Mr. HISS. No; never.
Mr. NIXON. Never to your knowledge in fun or otherwise?
Mr. HISS. Never.
Mr. NIXON. What did you call your son?
Mr. HISS. "Timmy."
Mr. NIXON. "Timmy"?
Mr. HISS. Yes; and in the family he is also known as "Moby," M-o-b-y.
Mr. NIXON. That is in the family now?
Mr. HISS. Yes; but he was "Tim" and "Timmy" most; in the family circle we called him "Moby."
Mr. NIXON. You testified you took your servants home?
Mr. HISS. I have on occasions.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall the age of this particular woman, Mrs. Pope, by any chance?
Mr. HISS. Martha, I would say she was probably in her 40's and very plump, very, very plump, large cheerful plump woman.
Mr. NIXON. Was she a cook or housekeeper?
Mr. HISS. Cook and waitress. We never had more than one maid at a time.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall any other servant after that as far as age is concerned?
Mr. HISS. This woman Ellen would be in her 50's, tall and dark. Ellen, I think, was older than Martha.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever take her home?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so.
Mr. NIXON. You did take Martha home?
Mr. HISS. Yes; Martha was practically a member of the family.
Mr. NIXON. Any other cook you took home?
Mr. HISS. We had a cook in recent years and I can't remember how far back it went. Certainly to the early 1940's. During the war she left us to take employment.
Mr. NIXON. If as much as possible we can limit our testimony to the years 1934 to 1937, it will be helpful because there is nothing else at issue.
Mr. HISS. On this business of maids it is hard. You don't hire people on an annual basis. They stay until something happens, and the one I remember taking home best I doubt if she was in our employ as early as 1937.
One other maid, whose name was Drusilla, lived in Georgetown. I don't recall ever having taken her home. I think we may have had her as early as 1937; maybe it was 1938.
Mr. NIXON. Where did you spend your vacations during that period ?
Mr. HISS. Normally, I think I didn't begin going to Peacham regularly until either 1937 or 1938; may have been 1937. My son went to, a camp over on the Eastern Shore of Maryland. I am partly an Eastern Shore man myself. Part of my family came from there. When he was at camp we spent two summers, I think, during this period in Chestertown, Md.
Mr. NIXON. On the Eastern Shore?
Mr. HISS. On the Eastern Shore of Maryland. He went to a camp of friends of ours who lived just outside of Chestertown. For two, summers we took a small apartment.
Mr. NIXON. Did you have pets?
Mr. HISS. We had a brown cocker spaniel we had before we came to Washington, was with us all during that period, and lived to be so old she died of old age.
Mr. NIXON. What did you do with the dog when you went on your vacations; do you recall ?
Mr. HISS. I think we took Tenny over on the Eastern Shore. I think we took her on the Eastern Shore when we went there. She did spend some time in the kennels when we were away.
Mr. NIXON. You can't recall for sure?
Mr. HISS.. We had a very good vet out near Rock Creek Park.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know his name? .
Mr. HISS. No; but I could easily ascertain it.
Mr. NIXON. That is where you would have left the dog, boarded the dog?
Mr. HISS. Yes; at that time I think we left her there.
Mr. NIXON. Can you ascertain that before you leave?
Mr. HISS. I can tell you how you get there.
Mr. NIXON. How would you get there?
Mr. HISS. You go right out the road that runs west of Rock Creek Park in the Chevy Chase area, and he had a house and his kennels elevated from the road just before you get to the end of that road that runs parallel to Rock Creek Park and turns off in the middle of Rock Creek Park. His name might be Dr. Evans. I wouldn't be sure.
Mr. NIXON. What hobby, if any, do you have, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. HISS. Tennis and amateur ornithology.
Mr. NIXON. Is your wife interested in ornithology?
Mr. HISS. I also like to swim and also like to sail. My wife is interested in ornithology, as I am, through my interest. Maybe I am using too big a word to say an ornithologist because I am pretty amateur, but I have been interested in it since I was in Boston. I think anybody who knows me would know that.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. Did you ever see a prothonotary warbler?
Mr. HISS. I have right here on the Potomac. Do you know that place?
The CHAIRMAN. What is that?
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever seen one?
Mr. HISS. Did you see it in the same place?
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. I saw one in Arlington.
Mr. HISS. They come back and nest in those swamps. Beautiful yellow head, a gorgeous bird.
Mr. Collins is an ornithologist, Henry Collins. He is a really good ornithologist, calling them by their Latin names.
Mr. NIXON. What schools do you recall your son attended in 1934 to 1937?
Mr. HISS. Tim was in the Friends School briefly here.
Mr. NIXON. Where did he go before that?
Mr. HISS. It is going to be hard to be sure. He went to a small school called the Cobb School, I think, in Chevy Chase.
Mr. NIXON. Is that called the Chevy Chase School also?
Mr. HISS. I don't think so. I think it was just called the Cobb School. Mr. Cobb ran it.
After Friends School he went to boarding school to George School in Pennsylvania near Doylestown, right near Newtown, Pa.
Mr. NIXON. Is the Friends School a rather expensive school, would you say, or moderate-priced school?
Mr. HISS. I would say moderate.
Mr. NIXON. And Cobb's School the same?
Mr. HISS. Yes. I might say Timmy's educational expenses were paid by his own father as part of the arrangement.
Mr. NIXON. Was the Cobb School, do you recall, more expensive than the Friends School?
Mr. HISS. I would guess it was probably less because it didn't carry through the grades thoroughly. It was a preschool and early primary grades.
Mr. NIXON. And you can't recall that there was a school in between that and Friends School?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall it, Mr. NIXON. He went to the Landon School here for a while.
Mr. NIXON. That is after Friends School?
Mr. HISS. That is after he had been at Friends and before he went to George School but not between Cobb and Friends. He went to Landon School, which is off Connecticut Avenue out when you get to Bradley Lane.
Mr. NIXON. Is that more expensive than the other?
Mr. HISS. That was a rather expensive school.
Mr. NIXON. More so than Friends School?
Mr. HISS. I think so.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall the school he went to immediately before Friends?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't.
Mr. NIXON. But you would say the Friends School was a moderate priced school?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. .HEBERT. Then you put him in a more expensive school?
Mr. HISS. Landon was more expensive than Friends. He hadn't been getting along very well at Friends and we consulted friends and thought that Landon was better.
Mr. HEBERT. You put him in a more expensive school?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Just one moment, Mr. HISS. I want to avoid having to go into any more of these again. As a boy, Mr. Hiss, did you have any particular business that you
engaged in?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. What was your business?
Mr. HISS. I had two businesses. One of which I was most proud was the delivery of spring water in Baltimore. Baltimore people didn't think they had very good municipal water.
Mr. NIXON. You had the spring water on your own place?
Mr. HISS. We had to go out to the park.
Mr. NIXON. The park?
Mr. HISS. Druid Hill Park is a park in Baltimore where there were good springs and some of us had water routes and we carried water and delivered it to customers.
Mr. HEBERT. As a child?
Mr. HISS. Twelve or so.
Mr. HEBERT. I didn't know whether he was in the spring-water business.
Mr. NIXON. As a boy.
Mr. HISS. We sold spring water.
Mr. STRIPLING. Is Druid Hill right in the middle of Baltimore?
Mr. NIXON. It is now.
Mr. HISS. It was at the edge of town then and from our house it was 10 or 15 blocks. I have always been very proud of that. I also raised pigeons and sold squabs. I am afraid in both places mostly to friends of my family.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, I have no further questions at this time. I might say that as a result of the questions, when we see the cold record, it presents to the committee a difficult problem again, still a controversy between the two witnesses. It is one which is difficult to resolve on the basis of third-party evidence, and as it stands at the present
time it is your word against that of Mr. Chambers.
I realize, incidentally, the feeling that you have, which I think is natural, that your word should be given greater weight than Mr. Chambers' word.
On the other hand, Mr. Chambers feels the same way because he feels he volunteered the information.
Mr. STRIPLING. Could I ask a few questions?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Are you finished with your statement?
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to ask some questions before he makes the statement.
Mr. NIXON. Go ahead.
Mr. STRIPLING. On this man George Crosley, you say you gave him this car?
Mr. HISS. Yes, sir.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever go riding with Crosley in this automobile?
Mr. HISS. I might very well have..
Mr. STRIPLING. I mean did you go around with him quite a bit, take rides?
Mr. HISS. You mean after I gave it to him did he ever give me a ride?
Mr. STRIPLING. Before or after.
Mr. HISS. I think I drove him from the Hill to the apartment.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever take any trips out of town with George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. No; I don't think so.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever take him to Pennsylvania?
Mr. HISS. No. I think I once drove him to New York City when I was going to make a trip to New York City anyway.
Mr. NIXON. Was Mrs. Hiss along?
Mr. HISS. That I wouldn't recall. She may have been. I think I may have given him a lift when I went to New York.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you go to Paoli?
Mr. HISS. If Mrs. Hiss was along; yes.
The CHAIRMAN. Route No. 202?
Mr. HISS. Route 202 goes through that part of Pennsylvania, and that is the route we would take.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever drive to Baltimore with Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall it. I think he moved to Baltimore from here, as a matter of fact, but I don't recall that I ever drove him.
Mr. NIXON. How did you know that?
Mr. HISS. I think he told me when he was pulling out. He was in my apartment until the lease expired in September.
Mr. NIXON. What year?
Mr. HISS. I think it was September 1935 and I think I saw him several times after that, and I think he had told me he moved from here to Baltimore.
Mr. NIXON. Even though he didn't pay his rent you saw him several times?
Mr. HISS. He was about to pay it and was going to sell his articles. He gave me a payment on account once. He brought a rug over which he said some wealthy patron gave him. I have still got the damned thing.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever give him anything?
Mr. HISS. Never anything but a couple of loans; never got paid back.
Mr. NIXON. Never gave him anything else?
Mr. HISS. Not to my recollection.
Mr. NIXON. Where is he now?
Mr. HISS. I have no idea. I don't think I have seen him since 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Have you ever heard of him since 1935?
Mr. HISS. No; never thought of him again until this morning on the train.
Mr. STRIPLING. You wouldn't say positively George Crosley and his person are the same?
Mr. HISS. Not positively.
Mr. STRIPLING. You would not say positively?
Mr. HISS. I think they are not. That would be my best impression from the photographs?
In thinking this morning what I thought was that Crosley is the only person I know who has been in my house who knows the lay-out of any house or apartment I lived in.
Mr. NIXON. He knows the lay-out of only one house?
Mr. HISS. Only one house.
Mr. NIXON. In one house only?
Mr. HISS. To my knowledge.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you have a collection of stuffed birds or anything?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. STRIPLING. Pictures of them?
Mr. HISS. I have bird books with pictures; photographs that I had taken; no.
Mr. STRIPLING. ,Just pictures of different birds not in books?
Mr. HISS. I have several Audubon prints hanging in my house, of birds.
The CHAMBERS. They are the finest pictures of birds that have ever been made; is that correct?
Mr. HISS. I think so. The most artistic, anyway.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, of course, as I say, was very convincing in his testimony and you certainly are very convincing in yours.
Now, frankly, the committee has a difficult problem here and I wonder if under the circumstances for the assistance of the committee in this matter you would be willing to take a lie-detector test on this.
I might say before you answer, so you will have full knowledge of what the committee knows, Mr. Chambers was asked that question and said he would take a lie detector test.
Mr. HISS. Shall I answer now?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, several days after I testified two members of the press told me that there had been a report that the committee was considering asking various witnesses if they would take a lie detector test. When I was asked if I had any comment to make on
that, I said I didn't think it was appropriate at the time to make any comment.
Since then I have talked about that to several friends who I think are knowledgeable. When I was practicing law actively, quite frankly we had very little confidence in the so-called lie detector tests. I would say that I would rather have you ask me formally if you think the detector tests are valuable in terms of who would administer it what expert it is, what type of test, because the people I have consulted-and I think I have consulted knowledgeable people-say there is no such thing; that it is an emotion recording test; that it is not scientific, and that nobody scientifically competent, including the Bureau, regards it as a scientific test.
Mr. NIXON. When you speak of asking you formally, what do you want us to do?
. Mr. HISS. I would like to know who the administrator is, whether this is being done by someone in the Bureau who is an expert or an individual so-called expert, what kind of a test it is. In other words, I don't think I ought to, on the basis of the advice I have had to try to answer it out of hand until I know and you know.
I would be surprised if this committee would want to rely on something that isn't scientific.
Mr. NIXON. Certainly. In answer to your question, the committee has contacted Mr. Leonardo Keeler.
Mr. HISS. Is he the man from Chicago?
Mr. NIXON. Probably the outstanding man in the country. The test Mr. Keeler has is the polygraph machine. It is the only one, I think, that has any broad acceptance at all.
I might say also that the polygraph machine is one whose accuracy is dependent to a great extent upon the type of operator. In questioning Mr. Keeler about this I said that if we did have the lie detector test, that he would have to operate it. He agreed. I might say we have made no arrangements with Mr. Keeler because it is rather an expensive proposition. When we do make arrangements we will, of course, have a number of witnesses concerning which contradictory testimony has come up. We are putting the question to you officially now and would like for you to give us your answer as soon as you can.
Mr. HISS. Would it seem to you inappropriate for me to say that I would rather have a chance for further consultation before I gave you the answer? Actually, the people I have conferred with so far say that it all depends on who reads, that it shows emotion, not truth, and I am perfectly willing and prepared to say that I am not lacking in emotion about this business.
I have talked to people who have seen, I think, Dr. Keeler's own test and that the importance of a question registers more emotion than anything else. I certainly don't want to duck anything that has scientific or sound basis. I would like to consult further.
I would like to find out a little more about Dr. Keeler. As I told you, the people I have consulted said flatly there is no such thing, that it is not scientifically established.
Mr. NIXON. When could you give a decision on that?
Mr. HISS. I would hope to consult in part the same people I consulted last week and anyone they suggested.
Mr. NIXON. When could you give a decision?
Mr. HISS. When is it important to you to know? Would you like to know tomorrow?
Mr. NIXON. Wednesday.
Mr. HISS. I will try to Jet you know Wednesday.
Mr. NIXON. Tomorrow might rush you. Could you know by Wednesday?
Mr. HISS. I certainly ought to be able to make up my mind on the basis of the questions I ask.
Mr. NIXON. If you do decide tomorrow and let us know, it would facilitate things, one way or the other. We have Mr. Keeler more or less standing by. I don't mean he is here, but he has promised to remain available for 3 or 4 days.
Mr. HISS. To whom should my reply be addressed?
Mr. NIXON. To the chairman of the committee. I might say also that the matter of emotion, of course, as you pointed out, enters into the test. One thing the members of the committee both remarked about is that Mr. Chambers is also a very emotional man.
Mr. HISS. Have you ever had any experience-with it yourself when you were practicing, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. NIXON. No; I have not.
Mr. HISS. But you do have confidence in it?
Mr. NIXON. Frankly, I have made a study of it in the last week before I put the question. In fact, for the last 2 weeks I have been studying it and have been in correspondence with Mr. Keeler.
Mr. HISS. You do have confidence in it as a device?
Mr. NIXON. I have. Let me say this: I have confidence that it is a factor which will be helpful in this case. I realize there is no factor which can be conclusive in this case, and I don't pretend that that is the case, but I do have confidence it would be helpful in this case to be weighed with the other facts in this matter.
Mr. HISS. I will take that into account.
Mr. NIXON. I have no further questions.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. HEBERT.
Mr. HEBERT. Mr. Hiss, how many children-is it just your brother and yourself?
Mr. HISS. In my family there were five originally. Two are dead.
I have another brother and sister, one surviving older sister and my brother.
Mr. HEBERT. Where does your sister live?
Mr. HISS. She lives in Austin, Tex., department of physical education at the university.
Mr. HEBERT. University of Texas?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. Where did she live before she went to the University of Texas?
Mr. HISS. In Baltimore.
Mr. HEBERT. With whom?
Mr. HISS. With my mother.
Mr. HEBERT. Just your mother and sister?
Mr. HISS. Yes. She went straight to Texas, I think, on graduation from physical training school, may have had one intermediate position.
Mr. HEBERT. What year?
Mr. HISS. She is a good deal older than I am. I think she has been in Texas about 20 years.
Mr. HEBERT. She has been in Texas about 20 years?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. Would she have been living in Baltimore in the years in question with your mother?
Mr. HISS. No, definitely no. She was in Texas at that time.
Mr. HEBERT. That is all.
The CHAIRMAN. ,strong>Mr. McDOWELL.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chairman, there is something I have been very anxious to get on the record, and since this is an executive session I think it is proper.
Do you recall, Mr. Hiss, calling on me last spring?
Mr. HISS. I do, indeed.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. Would you tell the committee why you called?
Mr. HISS. The then president or director of the Carnegie Institute in Pittsburgh, the Institute of Technology, sent word to us in New York that a derogatory report about a Carnegie Foundation had been received by this committee, that he thought the appropriate person for us to talk to if we had anything to say would be Congressman McDowell, who was investigating so-called Fascist activities.
I don't recall whether the substance of the charge came to me at that time, Mr. McDowell, or only when I talked to you and you very frankly told me all about it.
In any event, the facts, as I recall them, were that a charge had been made that a Carnegie Foundation had made a grant of money to one Gerald K. Smith on his own allegation. He had told that to intimates. He said he didn't need to worry about money, he had Carnegie backing or a Carnegie grant; that a priest who was not quite unfrocked but was disciplined for his associations with Gerald L. K. Smith, had become penitent under discipline, as a result of discipline, and had entered, I think, a monastery in Florida, and it was he who said that Gerald L. K. Smith had told him or had heard it said in his presence that he received financial backing from a Carnegie Foundation.
I came immediately to see you to see if we could get to the bottom of it and offered you and the committee full access to all the Carnegie files. I said I had checked my associates in the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, which is a related agency which makes grants; the Carnegie Corp., which is the largest granting body; had been through all our own records, though I had only come into the position in the endowment in 1947; and was absolutely sure that there had never been any grants by any Carnegie agency to Mr. Gerald L. K. Smith.
,strong>Mr. McDOWELL. Thank you very much. I wanted that on the record.
Mr. HISS. I appreciate very much the courtesy and the completeness of the information you gave me.
Mr. NIXON. I was going to suggest, Mr. Chairman, that I think the arrangements should be made now, if possible, for a hearing at which Mr. Hiss can resolve his own mind as to whether he has seen Mr. Chambers. I think that is essential because Mr. Hiss has indicated in his testimony today he is not satisfied from the pictures.
The CHAIRMAN. On that point I think we all agree. I believe though we ought to go into executive session right now and discuss it a little bit and have Mr. Hiss wait outside for us.
Mr. HEBERT. Before you do that, may I ask one more question?
Mr. Hiss, since this matter has come to public attention and since you have become cognizant of it, have you made any attempt to check Mr. Chambers to find out who he is and where he possibly knew you?
Mr. HISS. I did consult people in New York to see if there is any way to find out. The advice I received is that it is not appropriate, desirable, or very feasible for an individual solely for such a personal reason to attempt, or attempt to have conducted, an investigation; and so I have not persevered.
Mr. HEBERT. By that answer you mean you went to a detective agency?
Mr. HISS. I went to lawyers, counsel.
Mr. HEBERT. You went to counsel for that?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. You let the matter drop there?
Mr. HISS. Yes; on receiving their advice.
Mr. HEBERT. Can you, searching through your mind, recall or suggest any reason why a man named Whittaker Chambers should give such testimony involving you, any motive?
Mr. HISS. I cannot, sir, and I would like to say that this is one of the things I have puzzled and puzzled with.
Mr. HEBERT. Through your connection and association with people on Time or Life, as you undoubtedly have, did you inquire of Chambers?
Mr. HISS. On the way down to the public hearing I ran into an editor of Fortune whom I know only slightly, but the man I was with knew him very well, and I asked him because I hadn't found anybody who knew him. I had asked various press people who were asking me for statements if they knew him, and they did not. I have asked various friends who knew people on Time if they could find out more about his personality and what he is like. I haven't heard any reply. This man on Fortune gave an off-hand reaction.
Mr. HEBERT. You just didn't toss it off without trying to find out about Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Was Mr. Crosley a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. HISS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. NIXON. Never discussed it?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. You feel he might be Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. HISS. I find it difficult to believe. I can't identify him from the pictures and can't see any motive.
Mr. NIXON. You haven't the slightest idea what became of him?
Mr. HISS. No; haven't seen him since 1935.
Mr. NIXON. Where was he working at the time you knew him?
Mr. HISS. I was working in Washington in the Senate and he was here to get information in order to write articles.
Mr. NIXON. For whom did he work? Who was his employer?
Mr. HISS. He told me he was a free-lance writer preparing a series of articles which he had no doubt he would be able to market; that he had written for various magazines.
Mr. NIXON. What magazines had he written for?
Mr. HISS. He told me he had written for American magazine; I think he told me he had written for Cosmopolitan.
Mr. NIXON. You are sure about his telling you about writing for American?
Mr. HISS. Yes; I am sure of that.
Mr. NIXON. Never indicated where he worked or who he worked for?
Mr. HISS. He was a free-lance writer.
Mr. HEBERT. Did you ever see his name attached to an article?
Mr. HISS. He never sold one of the articles.
Mr. HEBERT. Did you ever see his name attached to an article?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. Never saw anything he wrote?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Did he pay any rent all the time he was in your house?
Mr. HISS. My recollection is he paid $15 or $20, and he gave me a rug, which I have still got.
Mr. NIXON. You had hard words when he left?
Mr. HISS. Yes, in the sense that I said, "Let's not talk any more about your ever paying back. I don't think you ever intend to, and I would rather forget all of this, and I think you have simply welshed from the beginning."
Mr. NIXON. In other words, this wasn't sufficient motive?
Mr. HISS. I didn't ask him to leave the house, but I practically did, and haven't seen him since. I made it plain I wouldn't be a sucker.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know his middle initial?
Mr. HISS. No; if I did I don't remember.
Mr. NIXON. Would you say this would be sufficient motive to do what Whittaker Chambers has done?
Mr. HISS. No. That is why I say I can't believe it was the same man. I can't imagine a normal man holding a grudge because somebody had stopped being a sucker.
Mr. STRIPLING. I want to ask you something. This is executive session and don't be insulted at any of these questions. You claim that you are a very close friend of Henry Collins.
Mr. HISS. I think it is fair to say I regard Henry Collins as a close friend.
Mr. STRIPLING. I don't recall whether I asked you exactly this question, but I think I asked you if Henry Collins was a Communist.
Mr. HISS. I don't recall exactly what I replied if you did ask it, but I feel sure I would have replied and I now reply, Not so far as I know.
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, Mr. Collins before the committee the other day refused to answer the question whether or not he was a member of the Communist Party on the ground that he might incriminate himself, and I happen to know pretty conclusively that not only is Mr. Collins a Communist but he has been a Communist for many years.
In fact, when he used to work in the AAA he was notorious, notorious for sitting around talking about communism.
Mr. HISS. I don't think I ever worked in AAA.
Mr. STRIPLING. And extolling the Russian system. You claim you know Lee Pressman. Lee Pressman has been accused of being an outright card-holding member of the Communist Party in the public press time and time again and refuses to deny it. The same is true of John Abt. You know John Abt.
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. And yet you would give us the belief that none of these people is a Communist. There is no question about John Abt and Lee Pressman, and in my mind, on Henry Collins.
You are an intelligent person and not naive enough that you wouldn't know a Communist if you saw one. Furthermore, I read a lot of Government files from time to time-and I don't say this disparagingly-but I have seen your name for years in Government files as a person suspected of Communist activity.
Now, there has to be some basis for the thing. Why would Charles Kramer refuse to say whether he knew you on the ground of self-incrimination? Why would Henry Collins answer that way? Why would all these people say that?
Mr. HISS. Are you finished?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. Do you think those are relevant questions to this inquiry?
Mr. STRIPLING. I am trying to determine why a man would come in before a committee of Congress under the penalties of perjury and just out of the blue make up a story and then have that story check almost in every minute detail, according to check, and then have people come in whom we know are Communists and then ask do they know you, and they refuse to answer. From your testimony and your appearance I would certainly be given the impression that you were as far removed from communism and knew no one who could even be suspected of being a Communist, just absolutely--just never heard of the word. Now, we are just trying to get the facts.
. Mr. HISS. Mr. Stripling, that had about 15 questions in it. One question that I think I distinctly understood was that you asked me to testify as to why certain witnesses refused to answer certain questions. I do not see how I could possibly be expected to be able to
testify on that. I haven't any idea.
Mr. STRIPLING. Skip that one.
Mr. HISS. You also asked me why my name appeared in various Government files. I thought that was the implication. I do not know what was the context in which my name appeared. The only other occasion except the May 1947 visit to the FBI agents, the information Mr. Byrnes gave me in March or April of 1946, was sometime back in, I think, 1938 or 1939-it may have been as late as 1940-I was asked to come to the field office of the Bureau in Washington on K Street.
The interrogator prefaced his questions with the statement that he was proceeding under an act of Congress-I do not remember the citation.
Mr. STRIPLING. Hatch Act.
Mr. HISS. Which provided that the names of all people appearing in the Dies committee files should be investigated by the FBI and that an appropriation was made for that purpose, that he was proceeding under that act. He asked me a series of questions including whether I had ever been a member of an organization which, as near as I can recall, he described as the Washington Committee for Democratic Action. As far as I knew, that was the first time I had ever heard of that organization. I testified then and I testify now I was never a member, as far as I know I was not even on their mailing list.
When you receive a lot of stuff in the mail unsolicited and have to throw it in the wastebasket, if it comes regularly enough, you are apt to remember. I don't recall having heard the name.
I also was told that an individual in the Department of Agriculture back in the early thirties, an old-line civil servant who is now not living, had accused a whole lot of people over there of being Reds, radicals, and so on. I do know that the whole atmosphere of a lot of new brash people coming into an old-line agency caused a great deal of friction. I know the particular person I am now referring to. I would not have accepted that person's judgment as being a very rational judgment. If that person made a statement about me
and others, it could have been made way back there-this has only come to my attention quite recently-I have no other way of knowing why or how my name appeared in any files.
I can say that I have never had the slightest indication from my superiors that they gave any credence to what you appear to be giving credence to.
Mr. STRIPLING. Don't misunderstand me. I didn't say I gave credence to that I said I had seen. I would just as soon have this off the record, if you like.
Mr. HISS. It can stay on.
Mr. STRIPLING. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
(A short executive session was taken off the record during which Mr. Hiss was out of the room.)
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hiss, the committee has unanimously decided to hold a public hearing on Wednesday, August 25, at 10: 30 a. m. in the caucus room on the third floor of the Old House Office Building, at which time you and Whittaker Chambers will be the witnesses and you will be asked questions in order to determine which one is telling the truth, and you will have an opportunity to confront one another.
Mr. HISS. I will be very glad of the chance to confront Mr. Chambers.
Mr. NIXON. Would you prefer to have it done informally?
Mr. HISS. My desire is to see the man face to face.
Mr. STRIPLING. Executive or open?
Mr. HISS. It doesn't matter.
Mr. NIXON. Where does it serve your best purpose? You just want to see the guy?
Mr. HISS. It seems to me appropriate that it be done under committee auspices under the circumstances.
Mr. NIXON. We are honestly trying to get the right way. If you have a public session, it is a show. Say it will be a meeting on the 25th in this room.
Mr. HISS. You want me here in this room at 10: 30 a. m.?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. HEBERT. I am sympathetic to your feelings about not wanting a big show, but the other witnesses have wanted to confront accusers in public.
Mr. HISS. I had not expressed a preference.
Mr. HEBERT. I wanted to clear that up. Unless you express a preference I want it public. Is a public meeting all right with you?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
MI'. HEBERT. I want to be fair with everybody..
The CHAIRMAN. You be here at 10: 15 on that day and we will first go into executive session with the idea of determining after having the executive session whether or not we will go into a public hearing.
Mr. STRIPLING. Can I be heard?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. I think the committee's concern is to determine who is telling the truth, and a public session-this is a kind of unprecedented proposition, and if you say it is going to be a public session, you know it will be ballyhooed into a circus.
From everybody's standpoint, I think it would be better--
Mr. HISS. May I speak?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes. The committee could exercise much better judgment by bringing them in in executive session. If each wants counsel, bring them in. Let's arrive at the facts. The committee could announce whatever action it wants, but I don't think a public session would add anything.
Mr. HISS. I want to be clear that I am not asking for an executive session as opposed to public. As far as consideration to me after what has been done to my feelings and my reputation, I think it would be like sinking the Swiss Navy. No public show could embarrass me now. I am asking to see this man.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you have a preference?
Mr. HISS. I think it is for the committee to decide.
Mr. NIXON. Do you care?
Mr. HISS. I think I prefer a public session.
Mr. HEBERT. That is the reverse.
Mr. HISS. I don't think I said that.
The CHAIRMAN. Which do you want?
Mr. NIXON. Let him think it over.
Mr. HISS. May I try to give it
Mr. NIXON. We will also give Mr. Chambers an opportunity.
Mr. HISS. Further consideration?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Just say that it will be arranged at that time, that no decision has been made as to the type of hearing.
Mr. HISS. In any event, you want me here at 10: 15 a. m. in this room.
May I ask a question about the press?
The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I want to tell you something. Every person in this room with the exception of yourself has stood up and raised his right hand and taken an oath that he will not divulge one single word of testimony given here this afternoon, questions asked, so I am going to ask you to take the same oath.
Mr. NIXON. No; that is up to him.
Mr. HEBERT. He can do what he wants to do.
Mr. HISS. I have thought of this problem and wanted to raise it specifically. I wanted to ask the committee's views as to what they preferred. I will be guided as far as I think I honestly can in terms of my own self-protection by what I take now to be the committee's
views that this is executive.
The CHAIRMAN. We are not going to divulge anything.
Mr. NIXON. There is one thing I think should be done in this case, and I see no reason why it shouldn't be done. I think Mr. Hiss should be given a copy of the testimony for his own use.
Mr. HISS. I would like to have it.
Mr. HEBERT. I agree.
The CHAIRMAN. All right.
Mr. NIXON. Also I made a suggestion before that only two copies of this testimony be made, one for Mr. Hiss and one to be delivered to the committee clerk. Mr. Hiss can have it and use it any way you like for your purposes.
Mr. HEBERT. Supplementing that, the reporter has been instructed that he personally is to transcribe this testimony taken here today, that nobody else is to see it, not his office or anybody else like that, and only one copy to you and one to us. We have sworn ourselves to secrecy. You are on your own.
Mr. NIXON. You would have to be.
Mr. HISS. I would like to say that I have no intention of making any public statement in terms of self-protection. I don't want to make a commitment that I won't because stories have appeared in the press.
Mr. NIXON. You might have discussed it with your counsel, for example. What arrangements can be made for the appearance of Mrs. Hiss? Would any time be convenient between now and next Wednesday?
Mr. HISS. I think I should try to reach her on the telephone.
Mr. NIXON. No hurry, but we would like to do that before the public session on Wednesday.
Mr. STRIPLING. Can't we arrange it somewhere in the East?
Mr. NIXON. New York?
Mr. STRIPLING. Is that all right?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. STRIPLING. Absolutely no publicity.
Mr. NIXON. We don't want it here.
Mr. STRIPLING. Is that agreeable?
Mr. HISS. Certainly.
Mr. STRIPLING. That Mrs. Hiss be heard in absolutely executive session.
Mr. HISS. Certainly. Thank you very much for your courtesies.
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you for coming, and we will see you August 25.
(Whereupon, at 5: 30 p. m., the executive session was concluded.)