(August 17, 1948)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
TUESDAY, AUGUST 17, 1948
UNITED STATES HOUSE. OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
New York, N. Y.
EXECUTIVE SESSION
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 5: 35 p. m., in room 1400 Hotel Commodore, New York City, Hon. John McDowell presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives John McDowell, J. Parnell Thomas (chairman of the full committee), and Richard M. Nixon.
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; William A. Wheeler, Louis J. Russell, Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Benjamin Mandel, director of research for the committee.
Mr. McDOWELL. The record will show that this is a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities sitting now in the city of New York in the Hotel Commodore. Those present are Mr. Nixon and Mr. McDOWELL.
The first witness will be Mr. Alger Hiss.
Mr. Hiss, will you please take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you shall give this committee will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HISS. I do.
Mr. McDOWELL. Thank you, sir. You may smoke and be comfortable.
TESTIMONY OF ALGER HISS (ACCOMPANIED BY CHARLES DOLLARD, IN CAPACITY OF A FRIEND)
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Nixon, before you begin questioning Mr. Hiss, would you have your friend or your counsel identify himself ?
Mr. HISS. Mr. Charles Dollard, who is a friend of mine. He is not a lawyer. He is of the Carnegie Corp. with offices at 552 Fifth A venue, where I also have mine.
Mr. STRIPLING. The purpose of the meeting is for the committee to continue to determine the truth or falsity of the testimony which has been given by Mr. Whittaker Chambers. Do you want to proceed, Mr. Nixon?
Mr. NIXON. Yes. It is quite apparent at this state in the testimony, as you indicated yesterday, that the case is deptmdent upon the question of identity. We have attempted to establish the identity through photographs of Mr. Chambers and that has been inadequate for that purpose. Today, we thought that since you had in your testimony
raised the possibility of a third party who might be involved in this case in some way and had described him at some length to the committee that it would be well to, at the earliest possible time, determine whether the third party is different from the two parties or the same one, and so consequently we have asked Mr. Chambers to be in New
York at the same time so that you can have the opportunity to see him and make up your own mind on that point.
Mr. HISS. May I interrupt at this point, because I take it this will take more than 10 or 15 minutes. Would it be possible for one of the members of the committee to call the Harvard Club and leave word that I won't be there for a 6 o'clock appointment?
Mr. McDOWELL. I would suggest it won't take much more time than that, but you certainly may.
Mr. NIXON. The purpose of this hearing is for the purpose of identification only, and then if there is any question of identification, to go into additional questions.
Mr. McDOWELL. There is a telephone, I believe, in the room here. Anytime you want to can, you may.
Mr. DOLLARD. I can make the call.
Mr. HISS. May I also make a statement before you begin?
Mr. McDOWELL. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. I would like the record to show that on my way down town from my uptown office, I learned from the press of the death of Harry White, which came as a great shock to me, and I am not sure that I feel in the best possible mood for testimony. I do not for a moment want to miss the opportunity of seeing I merely wanted the record to show that. I would like to make one further comment. Yesterday, I think I witnessed-in any event, I was told that those in the room were going to take an oath of secrecy. I made some comments before I answered certain questions of Mr. Nixon which I had not intended as a reflection on the committee, but which some members of the committee thought implied that. I was referring merely to the possibility of leakage of information. I would like this record to show at this stage that the first thing I saw in the morning paper, the Herald Tribune, was a statement that the committee yesterday had asked me if I would submit to a lie-detector test. I would also like the record to show at this point that on my way down from my uptown office to keep this appointment after I got Mr. McDowell's telegram, I read in the papers that it was understood that in the course of my testimony yesterday the committee asked me, the subcommittee asked me, if I could arrange to have Mrs. Hiss be examined privately. You will recall, and I hope the record win show, that Mr. Nixon assured me with great consideration that you desired to talk to Mrs. Hiss without any publicity. This was less than 24 hours after you had been so considerate.
There were other statements in the press which I read coming down which referred to other bits of my testimony which could only have come from the committee. They did not come from me. I would like the record to show that is why I asked if I could bring Mr. Dollard, a personal friend, to be with me at this particular time.
Mr. NIXON. In that connection, Mr. Hiss, I might suggest that in order to satisfy your own mind as to how that information may have gotten into the press that you get in touch with Mr. Carl Levin, the correspondent for the New York Herald Tribune, who wrote the story.
Mr. HISS. I have no reason to get in touch with Mr. Carl Levin. The assurances I had came from the committee.
Mr. NIXON. I suggest you do so because I think you will find that Mr. Levin's information is that he obtained the information from sources outside the committee and outside the committee staff and I can assure you that no member of this committee or no member of the staff discussed the matter with Mr. Levin at all. That was the only source of this information.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, I didn't say anybody discussed it with Mr. Levin. I said someone must haye given information. How Mr. Levin got it, I do not know. I said it did not come from me as a source, either directly or indirectly. I don't want to say any more about it, but like the record to show.
Mr. McDOWELL. The Chair would like to say something. I, too, was greatly disturbed when I read the morning paper. Obviously, there was a leak, because the story that appeared in the various papers I read was part of the activities of yesterday afternoon. I have no idea how this story got out. In my own case, I very carefully guarded myself last night, saw and talked to no one except my wife in Pittsburgh. It is regrettable and unfortunate. Further than that, I don't know what else to say other than if it was an employee of the committee. and I should discover it, he will no longer be an employee of the committee. As a Member of Congress, there is nothing I can do about that. It is a regrettable thing, and I join you in feeling rather rotten about the whole thing.
Mr. HISS. I didn't mean to make any charges but meant to state certain facts which have occurred which I think have a bearing on the reason I made the statements I made to the committee yesterday before I went on with certain parts of my testimony.
Mr. McDOWELL. I want to assure Mr. Dollard he is very welcome.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Russell, will you bring M1'. Chambers in?
Mr. RUSSELL. Yes.
(Mr. Russell leaves room and returns accompanied by )
Mr. NIXON. Sit over here,
Mr. Chambers, will you please stand?
And will you please stand, Mr. Hiss?
Mr. Hiss, the man standing here is Mr. Whittaker Chambers. I ask you now if you have ever known that man before.
Mr. HISS. May I ask him to speak? Will you ask him to say something?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. Chambers, will you tell us your name and your business?
My name is Whittaker Chambers.
(At this point, Mr. Hiss walked in the direction of )
Mr. HISS. Would you mind opening your mouth wider?
My name is Whittaker Chambers.
Mr. HISS. I said, would you open your mouth?
You know what I am referring to, Mr. NIXON.
Will you go on talking?
I am senior editor of Time magazine.
Mr. HISS. May I ask whether his voice, when he testified before was comparable to this?
Mr. NIXON. His voice?
Mr. HISS. Or did he talk a little more in a lower key?
Mr. McDOWELL. I would say it is about the same now as we have heard.
MI'. HISS. Would you ask him to talk a little more?
Mr. NIXON. Read something, I will let you read from- .
Mr. HISS. I think he is George Crosley, but I would like to hear him talk a little longer.
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chambers, if you would be more comfortable, you may sit down.
Mr. HISS. Are you George Crosley?
Not to my knowledge. You are Alger Hiss, I believe.
Mr. HISS. I certainly am.
That was my recollection. (Reading:)
Since June-
Mr. NIXON (interposing). Just one moment. Since some repartee goes on between these two people, I think Mr. Chambers should be sworn.
Mr. HISS. That is a good idea.
Mr. McDOWELL. You do solemnly swear, sir, that the testimony you shall give this committee will h'e the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
I do.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, may I say something? I suggested that he be sworn, and when I say something like that I want no interruptions from you.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Nixon, in view of what happened yesterday, I think there is no occasion for you to use that tone of voice in speaking to me and I hope the record will show what I have just said.
Mr. NIXON. The record shows everything that is being said here today.
Mr. ST'RIPLING. You were going to read.
(reading from Newsweek magazine) :
Tobin for Labor. Since June, Harry S. Truman had been peddling the...
Mr. HISS. May I interrupt?
Mr. McDOWELL. Yes.
Mr. HISS. The voice sounds a little less resonant than the voice that I recall of the man I knew as George Crosley. The teeth look to me as though either they have been improved upon or that there has been considerable dental work done since I knew George Crosley, which was some years ago. I believe I am not prepared without further checking to take an absolute oath that he must be George Crosley.
Mr. NIXON. May I ask a question of Mr. Chambers?
Mr. HISS. I would like to ask Mr. Chambers, if I may.
Mr. NIXON. I will ask the questions at this time.
Mr. Chambers, have you had any dental work since 1934 of a substantial nature?
Yes; I have.
Mr. NIXON. What type of dental work?
I have had some extractions and a plate.
Mr. NIXON. Have you had any dental work in the front of your mouth?
Yes.
Mr. NIXON. What is the nature of that work?
That is a plate in place of some of the upper dentures.
Mr. NIXON. I see.
Mr. HISS. Could you ask him the name of the dentist that performed these things? Is that appropriate?
Mr. NIXON. Yes. What is the name?
Dr. Hitchcock. Westminster, Md.
Mr. HISS. That testimony of Mr. Chambers, if it can be believed, would tend to substantiate my feeling that he represented himself to me in 1934 or 1935 or thereabout as George Crosley, a free lance writer of articles for magazines....
Mr. NIXON. Can you describe the condition of your teeth in 1934?
Yes. They were in very bad shape.
Mr. NIXON. The front teeth were?
Mr. CHAMBEHS. Yes; I think so.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. NIXON. Excuse me. Before we leave the teeth, Mr. Hiss, do you feel that you would have to have the dentist tell you just what he did to the teeth before you could tell anything; about this man? .
Mr. HISS. I would like a few more questions asked. I didn't intend to say anything about this, because I feel very
strongly that he is Crosley, but he looks very different in girth and in other appearances-hair, forehead. and so on, particularly the jowls.
Mr. NIXON. .What was Crosley's wife's name?
Mr. HISS. I don't think I recall.
Mr. NIXON. You did testify that she on several occasions was in your home overnight?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. And that yon have ridden with her in a car as well as with him.
Mr. HISS. I don't recall testifying to that.
Mr. NIXON. Do you testify she didn't?
Mr. HISS. I don't recall.
Mr. NIXON. But she did stay overnight in your home on several occasions?
Mr. HISS. She did. I don't think I said several occasions.
Mr. NIXON. How many times did you say?
Mr. HISS. My recollection is that at the time George Crosley subrented my apartment on Twenty-ninth Street his wife and he and infant spent two or three or four consecutive nights in my house because the van had not come with their furniture, and we left only certain pieces of furniture behind to accommodate them.
Mr. NIXON. In regard to the rental agreement that was entered into with Mr. Crosley, do you recall approximately the rental that was charged and agreed to?
Mr. HISS. My recollection is that I said I would be glad to let him have the apartment for the cost to me. It was a rather moderate rental.
Mr. NIXON. Could you say within certain limits?
Mr. HISS. My recollection-I can't remember just what I paid for the apartment that far back-my recollection is it was under $75 a month. It was a very reasonable rental. That is one of the reasons I had taken it.
Mr. NIXON. For how long was this rental agreement?
Mr. HISS. I think I went into this yesterday in the testimony. Sometime in the spring, according to my recollection, of 1934.
Mr. NIXON. Or did you say 1935'?
Mr. HISS. I am looking at notes I made, trying to remember the dates. Sometime in the spring of 1935 I leased the house on P Street. Having both a house and an apartment on my hands, I was looking for a way of disposing of the apartment on sublease, and the occasion of one of the talks I had with Crosley, he said he was planning to spend the summer in Washington carrying on the researches he had been doing in the field of the Munitions Committee investigations.
I asked him if he would like to sublet my apartment during that period of time, that it was not too cool, but that it was up on a hill and had a very decent location as Washington goes, that I would let him have it for the cost to me. In the course of the negotiation he referred to the fact that he also wanted an automobile.
Mr. NIXON. How many months, Mr. Hiss, approximately, was that?
Mr. HISS. Just the summer months.
'Mr. NIXON. Three months?
Mr. HISS. I don't remember how long the lease ran. I think to Septpmber. Maybe it ran to October. I think this conversation probably took place in June.
Mr. NIXON. When did your lease on this apartment run out?
Mr. HISS. I think in the fall, September or October, and I had several months still to go after the time I had taken the other place.
Mr. NIXON. You think this lease on the apartment ran out in the fall ?
Mr. HISS. That is my best recollection.
Mr. NIXON. You are testifying, as I understand, that the lease to Mr. Crosley was for the three summer months approximately.
Mr. HISS. As long as he wanted to stay during the summer period while I still had the use of that apartment.
Mr. NIXON. It was beyond the month of July? Did it include the month of July, do you know?
Mr. HISS. I think it included July and August.
Mr. NIXON. You say it did include July and August?
Mr. HISS. Yes. We are talking about something that occurred 13 years ago. It is my best recollection.
Mr. NIXON. I understand. Was it a lease for longer than 2 months?
Mr. HISS. Mr. NIXON. I have testified that I think it took the summer months. It might have been June, July, August, and September. It depends on how long I had the disposition of the apartment.
Mr. NIXON. Then the total rental value for the period was, if it were for 2 months, it would have been approximately $150; 3 months, approximately $225.
Mr. HISS. It was contingent upon the number of months he would occupy the remaining unexpired term under my lease.
Mr. NIXON. How long did he stay there?
Mr. HISS. As far as I know, he stayed there all summer. He certainly never said he didn't.
Mr. NIXON. Your lease did not run out after the end of the summer?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. He didn't stay there after that?
Mr. HISS. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. NIXON. Did he ever pay any rent at all?
Mr. HISS. My recollection is that he paid no cash, that he once paid in kind.
Mr. NIXON. No cash at all?
Mr. HISS. He also borrowed some cash in addition.
Mr. NIXON. How much did he borrow, approximately?
Mr. HISS. I don't think it got over $35 or $40 in different transactions, not at all at once. I hope it didn't.
Mr. NIXON. Did you enter into a written contract?
Mr. HISS. I think it was oral. It wasn't easy to sublet an apartment during the summer in those days in Washington.
Mr. NIXON. How did you first meet Mr. Crosley?
Mr. HISS. My best recollection-I was thinking over this yesterday morning on the way down to the committee hearing-is that Mr.Crosley came into my office in the Senate Office Building, where I was serving as legal assistant to the Senate Munitions Committee, as a pressman making inquiries about the investigation, as many dozens of other press people, authors. students, researchers did.
Mr. NIXON. That is the first time you had ever seen him in your life?
Mr. HISS. The first time I had ever seen him.
Mr. NIXON. Did you immediately discuss this rental contract?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. The agreement that you were entering into?
Mr. HISS. No.
Mr. NIXON. When did that first come into the conversation?
Mr. HISS. I think that came into the conversation in the spring of 1935 after I knew that I was going to have a house as well as an apartment.
Mr. NIXON. How long had you known Mr. Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I don't remember which stage of the Munitions Committee investigation I first met Mr. Crosley and haven't even had time to check when I actually went to the Hill. I think it was in the fall of 1934, but I am not sure.
Mr. NIXON. You had known Mr. Crosley, your testimony is, for about 8 months before you entered into this agreement?
Mr. HISS. Five or six months.
Mr. NIXON. Then you had had several conversations with him during that period?
Mr. HISS. I think I must have seen him as often as I did any other newspaperman who was particularly interested. I think I saw him 10 or 11 times.
Mr. NIXON. Never saw him socially during that period?
Mr. HISS. Never saw him socially.
Mr. NIXON. Only in the course of your business?
Mr. HISS. Only in the course of my business.
Mr. NIXON. Then in 1935, the spring of 1935, Mr. Crosley discussed this matter of getting your apartment for the summer with you?
Mr. HISS. Would you like me to state how I think it originated?
Mr. NIXON. Certainly.
Mr. HISS. It originated by his saying he was planning to spend the summer months in Washington to complete his research and investigation of the series of articles which he had been engaged upon at the time I first met him.
Mr. NIXON. Would you refresh me on where this apartment was?
Mr. HISS. This was on Twenty-ninth Street.
Mr. NIXON. This is the Twenty-ninth Street apartment?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. And from that apartment you had moved to P Street?
Mr. HISS. 2905 P Street.
Mr. NIXON. House?
Mr. HISS. House.
Mr. NIXON. That was a house?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Go ahead with vour recollection.
Mr. HISS. You asked me how it originated.
Mr. NIXON. I understand.
Mr. HISS. That I described. What else did you want?
Mr. NIXON. That completes
Mr. HISS. As to how it originated. He mentioned he was planning to spend the summer months consistently in Washington. My understanding had been before that he came down to Washington from New York for various hearings of the committee, for talking to the staff, for getting material, and he said he intended to spend the summer in Washington completing his researches and was looking for a place to live, and I said I happened to have a place I would be very glad to get rid of.
Mr. NIXON. So yon agreed with him that he could move into your apartment for 3 months approximately?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. Which would he for a consideration of, say, $225, roughly?
Mr. HISS. Whatever the actual cost to me was.
Mr. NIXON. And then there was some conversation about a car. What was that?
Mr. HISS. There was. Mr. Crosley said that while he was in Washington he wondered if he could get; rented car or something, hecanse he would like to have it while his family were with him, get out weekends, something like that. I said, "You came to just the right place. I would be very glad to throw a car in because I have been trying to get rid of an old car which we have kept solely for sentimental reasons which we couldn't get anything on for trade-in or. sale." I would be very glad to let him have the car because we wanted somebody to make real use of it. We had had it sitting on the city streets because we had a new one."
Mr. NIXON. It was a '29 Ford?
Mr. HISS. One of the first model A Fords.
Mr. NIXON. The year of this transaction would be 1935?
Mr. HISS That would be my best recollection.
Mr. NIXON. A 6-year-old Ford?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. You just gave him the car with this $225 rental?
Mr. HISS. As part of the total contract. That is my best recollection.
Mr. NIXON. The rent was simply the going rate, as you indicated?
Mr. HISS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. And you just threw in this 6-year-old car with it?
Mr. HISS. That is my best recollection. I don't think it figured as it financial element in the transaction.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know the Blue Book value of a 1929 Ford in 1935 ?
Mr. HISS. I certainly don't. I know what the going rate was with sellers of new cars. I think the most I had ever been offered for it was $25 or $30 at that time, a few months before that.
Mr. NIXON. So you gave him this car.
Mr. HISS. As part of the whole transaction.
Mr. NIXON. Then before he moved into the apartment I understand that you allowed him and his wife to stay with you in your home?
Mr. HISS. My recollection of that-and this is repetitious-
Mr. NIXON. We are repeating it for his benefit as well as to see if he can recall this incident.
Mr. HISS. I am glad he has no other way of finding out about it, Mr.Nixon. My recollection on that point is that Mr. Crosley said since he was only coming down for the summer, he didn't want to bring very many things. I said since we had rented a furnished house, we had more furniture than we really needed. In fact, one of the rooms in 2905 P Street was perpetually used as a storeroom for furniture while we were there.
We left several pieces of furniture in the apartment for several weeks or months, I don't remember how long, and I don't remember which pieces, but there was a bed and a bureau and a table and a couple of chairs.
When the day came when Mr. Crosley was supposed to move in, his moving van hadn't arrived but his wife and baby had. We put them up the way one would be apt to try to be helpful to people you were subletting. You develop a kind of pseudo-friendliness over a transaction of that kind.
Mr. Crosley, his wife, and infant were put up in my house for 2 or 3 days while the moving van was coming; it may have been 4, may have been 2. It was more than one night. I imagine my wife would testify it seemed even longer than that.
Mr. NIXON. Were those the only two apartments in which Mr. Crosley saw you?
Mr. HISS. To the best of my knowledge, yes.
Mr. NIXON. When did you see him after that period of the rental agreement?
Mr. HISS. I saw him several times in the fall of 1935, as I recall it.
Mr. NIXON. .What were the occasions of those visits?
Mr. HISS. Some occasions-he would call-no; I think he came to my house once or twice after that because of this establishment of a personal relationship. I remember on one occasion he came and brought me a rug which was part payment. He hadn't yet sold his articles, he was hard up, he was going to make payment. My recollection is I never got paid a single red cent in currency.
Mr. NIXON. What kind of a rug was it?
Mr. HISS. It was about the color of this rug [indicating rug on floor]. I still have it. A fairly sizable rug. My recollection is Mr.Crosley said some wealthy patron had bestowed it upon him as a gift. It was not a very useful rug. It had been used in the nursery. It is in my youngest son's room now, he still being almost of nursery age. He was 7 on the day I testified publicly before your committee.
Mr. NIXON. On these other occasions on which Mr. Crosley stayed with you; did he ever stay overnight?
Mr. HISS. I wouldn't be sure of my recollection. It is quite possible he may have said that he couldn't get a reservation. Mr. Crosley was apparently in the habit of having difficulties. He may very well have said that he couldn't get a hotel reservation, could I put him up. Mr.Crosley, not being someone who paid his debts, may very well have added to his obligations in that way. That I wouldn't be sure of.
Mr. NIXON. You testified on one occasion you took him on a trip, as I understand it, ferried him to New York.
Mr. HISS. My recollection is that on one occasion when my wife and I were going to drive to New York in any event, Mr. Crosley asked for a ride. I may have mentioned when I was talking to him that I was going to New York, or he may have said he was going to New York, and I said so was I.. My recollection is I drove him to New York on one occasion. Whether my wife was present or not, I am not sure. I rather think she may have been. I would have to ask her and I haven't asked her.
Mr. NIXON. Was that after the time of this rental agreement?
Mr. HISS. I am afraid I can't recall.
Mr. NIXON. No further questions of Mr. Hiss at this time.
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, you say that person you knew as George Crosley, the one feature which you must have to check on to identify him is the dentures..
Mr. HISS. May I answer that my own way rather than just "Yes" or "No"?
Mr.. STRIPLING. Well, now, I would like to preface whatever you are gomg to say by what I say first. I certainly gathered the impression when Mr. Chambers walked in this room and you walked over and examined him and asked him to open his mouth, that you were basing your identification purely on what his upper teeth might have looked like.
Now, here is a person that you knew for several months at least. You knew him so well that he was a guest in your home.
Mr. HISS. Would you--
Mr. STRIPLING. I would like to complete my statement-that he was a guest in your home, that you gave him an old Ford automobile, and permitted him to use, or you leased him your apartment and in this, a very important onfrontation, the only thing that you have to check on is this denture; is that correct ? There is nothing else about this man's features which you could definitely say, "This is the man I knew as George Crosley," that you have to rely entirely on this denture; is that your position?
Mr. HISS. Is your preface through? My answer to the question you have asked is this:
From the time on Wednesday, August 4, 1948, when I was able to get hold of newspapers containing photographs of one Whittaker Chambers, I was struck by a certain familiarity in features. When I testified on August 5 and was shown a photograph by you, Mr. Stripling, there was again some familiarity features. I could not be sure that I had never seen the person whose photograph you showed me. I said I would want to see the person. The photographs are rather good photographs of Whittaker Chambers as I see Whittaker Chambers today. I am not given on important occasions to snap judgments or simple, easy statements. I am confident that George Crosley had notably bad teeth. I would not
call George Crosley a guest in my house. I have explained the circumbtances. If you choose to call him a guest, that is your affair.
Mr. STRIPLING. I am wining to strike the word "guest." He was in your house.
Mr. HISS. I saw him at the time I was seeing hundreds of people. Since then I have seen thousands of people. He meant nothing to me except as one I saw under the circumstances I have described. My recollection of George Crosley, if this man had said he was George Crosley, I would have no difficulty in identification. He denied it right here. I would like and asked earlier in this hearing if I could ask some further questions to help in identification. I was denied that.
Mr. STRIPLING. I think you should be permitted.
Mr. HISS. I was denied that right. I am not, therefore, able to take an oath that this man is George Crosley. I have been testifying about George Crosley. Whether he and this man are the same or whether he has means of getting information from George Crosley about my house, I do not know. He may have had his face lifted.
Mr. STRIPLING. The witness says he was denied the right to ask this witness questions. I believe the record will show you stated "at this time." I think he should be permitted to ask the witness questions now or any other motion should be granted which will permit him to determine whether or not this is the individual to whom he
is referring.
Mr. HISS. Right. I would be very happy if I could pursue that. Do I have the Chair's permission?
Mr. McDOWELL. The Chair will agree to that.
Mr. HISS. Do I have Mr. Nixon's permission.
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. McDOWELL. Here is a very difficult situation.
Mr. NIXON. The only suggestion I would make in fairness to Mr. Chambers is that he should also be given the opportunity to ask Mr. Hiss any questions.
Mr. McDOWELL. Of course.
Mr. HISS. I will welcome that.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Chambers, do you have any objection?
No.
Mr. HISS. Did you ever go under the name of George Crosley?
Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HISS. Did you ever sublet an apartment on Twenty-ninth Street from me?
No; I did not.
Mr. HISS. You did not?
No.
Mr. HISS. Did you ever spend any time with your wife and child in an apartment on Twenty-ninth Street in Washington when I was not there because I and my family were living on P Street?
I most certainly did.
Mr. HISS. You did or did not?
I did.
Mr. HISS. Would you tell me how you reconcile your negative answers with this affirmative answer?
Very easily, Alger. I was a Communist and you were a Communist.
Mr. HISS. Would yon be responsive and continue with your answer?
I do not think it is needed.
Mr. HISS. That is the answer.
Mr. NIXON. I will help you with the answer, Mr. HISS. The question, Mr. Chambers, is, as I understand it, that Mr. Hiss cannot understand how you would deny that you were George Crosley and yet admit that you spent time in his apartment. Now would you explain the circumstances? I don't want to put that until Mr. Hiss agrees that is one of his questions.
Mr. HISS. You have the privilege of asking any questions you want. I think that is an accurate phrasing.
Mr. NIXON. Go ahead.
As I have testified before, I came to Washington as a Communist functionary, a functionary of the American Communist Party. I was connected with the underground group of which Mr. Hiss was a member. Mr. Hiss and I became friends. To the best of my knowledge, Mr. Hiss himself suggested that I go there, and I accepted gratefully.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. NIXON. Just a moment. How long did you stay there?
My recollection, about 3 weeks. It may have been longer. I brought no furniture, I might add.
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, I don't need to ask Mr. Whittaker Chambers any more qnestions. I am now perfectly prepared to identify this man as George Crosley..
Mr. NIXON. Would you spell that name?
Mr. HISS. C-r-o-s-I-e-y.
Mr. NIXON. You are sure of one "s"?
Mr. HISS. That is mv recollection. I have 'a rather good visual memory, and my recollection of his spe1ling of his name is C-r-o-s-I-e-y. I don't think that would change as much as his appearance.
Mr. STRIPLING. You will identify him positively now?
Mr. HISS. I will on the basis of what he has just said positively identify him without further questioning as George Crosley.
Mr. STRIPLING. \Vill you produce for the committee three people who will testify that they knew him as George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I will if it is possible. Why is that a question to ask me? I will see what is possible. This occurred in 1935. The only people that I can think of who could have known him as George Crosley with certainty would have been the people who were associated with me in the Nye committee.
Mr: STRIPLING. Can you name three people whom we can subpeona who can identify him as George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I am afraid I will have to confer with the individual members. The people, as I recall them, who were on that staff-and they were in and out of Washington constantly-were Mr. Raushenbush. I would like to consult Steve Raushenbush. I don't know whether Crosley ever called on him....
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, another point that I want to be clear on, Mr. Chambers said he was a Communist and that you were a Communist.
Mr. HISS. I heard him..
Mr. NIXON. Will you tell the committee whether or not during this period of time that you knew him. which included periods of 3 nights or 2 or 3 nights, in which he stayed overnight and one trip to New York, from any conversation you ever had any idea that he might be a Communist?
Mr. HISS. I certainly didn't.
Mr. NIXON. You never discussed politics?
Mr. HISS. Oh, as far as I recall his conversations-and I may be confusing them with a lot of other conversations that went on in 1934 and 1935-politics were discussed quite frequently. May I just state for the record that it was not the habit in Washington in those days, when particularly if a member of the press called on you, to ask him before you had further conversation whether or not he was a Communist. It was a quite different atmosphere in Washington then than today. I had no reason to suspect George Crosley of being a Communist. It never occurred to me that he might be or whether that was of any significance to me if he was. He was a press representative and it was my duty to give him information, as I did any other member of the press. It was to the interest of the committee investigating the munitions
industry, as its members and we of its staff saw it, to furnish guidance and information to people who were popularizing and writing about its work.
I would like to say that to come here and discover that the ass under the lion's skin is Crosley. I don't know why your committee didn't pursue this careful method of interrogation at an earlier date before all the publicity. You told me yesterday you didn't know he was going to mention my name, although a lot of people now tell me that the press did know it in advance. They were apparently more effective in getting information than the committee itself. That is all I have to say now.
Mr. McDOWELL. Well, now, Mr. Hiss, yon positively identify-
Mr. HISS. Positively on the basis of his own statement that he was in my apartment at the time when I say he was there. I have no further question at all. If he had lost both eyes and taken his nose off, I would be sure.
Mr. McDOWELL. Then, your identification of George Crosely is complete?
Mr. HISS. Yes, as far as I am concerned, on his own testimony.
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Chambers, is this the man, Alger Hiss, who was also a member of the Communist Party at whose home you stayed?
Mr. NIXON. According to your testimony.
Mr. McDOWELL. You make the identification positive?
Positive identification.
(At this point, Mr. Hiss arose and walked in the direction of )
Mr. HISS. May I say for the record at this point, that I would like to invite Mr. Whittaker Chambers to make those same statements out of the presence of this committee without their being privileged for suit for libel. I challenge yon to do it, and I hope yon will do it damned quickly.
I am not going to touch him [addressing Mr. Russell]. You are touching me.
Mr. RUSSELL. Please sit down, Mr. HISS.
Mr. HISS. I will sit down whell the chairman asks me. Mr. Russell, when the chairman asks me to sit down
Mr. RUSSELL. I want no disturbance.
Mr. HISS. I don't
Mr. McDOWELL. Sit down, please.
Mr. HISS. You know who started this.
Ml'. McDOWELL. We will suspend testimony here for a minute or two, until I return.
(Short recess.)
Mr. HISS. Mr. Chairman, would vou be good enough to ask Mr. Chambers for the record his response to the challenge that I have just made to him?
Mr. McDOWELL. That has nothing to do with the pertinency of the matter that the committee is investigating, and I don't feel I should.
Mr. HISS. I thought the committee was interested in ascertaining truth.
Mr. STRIPLING. What is the challenge?
Mr. McDOWELL. That he, Mr. Chambers, would make those statements he has made before the committee in public where they would not be privileged under congressional immunity. That I would take it would be strictly a matter up to Mr. Chambers and Mr. Hiss, but I don't feel the committee has any proper or parliamentary right to ask
such it question.
Mr. STRIPLING. I don't think it it necessary that he do so. He has made those statements many times to the Government, and that is not privileged.
Mr. HISS. I am advised by counsel that they were probably privileged. Are you a lawyer?
Mr. STRIPLING. After a fashion.
Mr. NIXON. I am a lawver.
Mr. HISS. It is your opinion they are not privileged?.
Mr. NIXON. It is my opinion if a statement is made to an investigative officer not under subpena, but voluntarily, voluntarily by the witness, that the statement would not be privileged. If the statement is made in this hearing, of course, it is privileged. If we subpena Mr. Chambers, it is privileged, but if Mr. Chambers goes to somebody in the Government, we will say, on his own, and makes certain charges concerning yon, I don't think you certainly would
claim they are privileged.
Mr. HISS. How do I obtain the evidence of exactly what he told any Government officials?
Mr. NIXON. The evidence is then Mr. Chambers' public testimony before this committee in the first instance. You will recall that he testified that he did make these statements to Mr. Berle in 1939 concerning you, and he testified also that he made them to Mr. Levine. Those statements, both to Mr. Levine and Mr. Berle, would not be privileged.
Mr. HISS. But the fact, as stated to your committee, that he made those statements, is it self-privileged? Unless it is possible to get the actual statement he made under unprivileged circumstances-
Mr. NIXON. Have you asked Mr. Levine?
May I make a point?
Mr. STRIPLING. I am concerned with the statement you made before the committee of Congress in the presence of quite a few hundred people that you didn't even know this person. You led the public and press to believe you didn't know such a person.
Mr. HISS. Will you show me where that is?
Mr. STRIPLING. Yes.
Mr. HISS. How long will it take? I was told yesterday, I would have a copy of this. Have you typed the transcript up [addressing reporter] ?
The REPORTER. Approximately half of the transcript has been finished and two copies have been delivered to Mr. NIXON....
Mr. NIXON. Has any member of the press ever asked you whether you had known Mr. Whittaker Chambers under this or any other name, and, if so, what was your answer?
Mr. HISS. I was asked if I had ever known an individual named Carl. My answer was "No."
Mr. NIXON. The only question you have been asked is whether or not you have known an individual by the name of Carl?
Mr. HISS. I was asked that by the press apparently after another secret session of this committee. The press understood that he had been known by the name of Carl.
Mr. NIXON. You never knew this man under the name of Carl?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. NIXON. You never paid this man any money for Communist Party dues?
Mr. HISS. I certainly did not.
Mr. NIXON. This is the man you gave the car to?
Mr. HISS. The car?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. HISS. C-a-r-yes.
May I ask a question?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. CHAJ\iBERS. Did you ever pay dues to J. Peters?
Mr. HISS. I certainly did not.
To Henry Collins?
Mr. HISS. I certainly did not; not even for the Audubon Society did I pay dues to Henry Collins.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever discuss your hobby, ornithology, with this man?
Mr. HISS. I may very likely have. My house has pictures very simi!ar to that [indicating picture on wall]. This is an appropriate hearing room.
Mr. McDOWELL. It was a complete coincidence.
Mr. HISS. Anyone who had ever been in my house would remark that I had an interest in birds.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know if this man you knew as Crosley was an ornithologist?
Mr. HISS. Not to my know ledge.
Mr. NIXON. You have never given Crosley anything you recall besides the car?
Mr. HISS. I have no such recollection. I don't consider I gave him the car, but threw it in with the whole transaction.
Mr. NIXON. You had a lease for $225 for the lease?
Mr. HISS. It wasn't a signed lease.
Mr. NIXON. I understand you had it sublet for $225 and gave him the car.
Mr. HISS. May I say I resent the implication of the statement. I take it it was not a question.
Mr. NIXON. That is all. Mr. McDowell?
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Hiss, did you ever have a dinner or a meal with George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I think we fed him when he was in the house for a couple of days. That is my custom with people staying under my roof.
Mr. McDOWELL. You are not sure?
Mr. HISS. I know I have had lunch with him, because it was my practice, and still is, that if someone wants to talk to me about a matter that requires relatively lengthy discussion, a luncheon discussion has a termination. If they come to see you in your office, it is not quite so easy to terminate it at your own convenience.
Mr. McDOWELL. Did this fellow have any characteristics or habits that you can recall now?
Mr. HISS. No; not of significance, except his bad teeth.
Mr. McDOWELL. Would you know whether-aside from his bad teeth, would you know whether he was a heavy drinker or modest drinker, or nondrinker?
Mr. HISS. I have no information about that.
Mr. McDOWELL. Did you ever take a walk with him?
Mr. HISS. That I couldn't be sure. I certainly must have walked to lunch if we went to lunch from the Senate Office Building. You had to walk quite a distance to get to any restaurant from the Senate Office Building.
Mr. McDOWELL. It would appear to me, Mr. Hiss, of all the newspaper men that you were in contact in your highly important jobs with the Nye committee that you must have formed some sort of an affection for this man to go through all of the things that you did to try to occupy your home, take over vour lease, and give him an automobile....
Now, Mr. Stripling, have you any further questions?
Mr. STRIPLING. I have several references here, Mr. Hiss, but, as you stated, it is purely in my opinion based upon these. For example, when I showed you the picture and you replied: "I would much rather see the individual. I have looked at all the pictures I was able to get hold of in, I think it was, yesterday's paper which had the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr. Chambers, he is not particularly unusual looking. He looks like a lot of people. I might mistake him for the chairman of this committee."
Mr. HISS. Still might, the record might show.
Mr. STRIPLING. But I still say this man looks exactly like the pictures.
Mr. NIXON. You so testified.
Mr. HISS. I said the resemblance is not bad, particularly the picture in Life.
Mr. NIXON. We showed you that one.
Mr. HISS. I saw it earlier than vour showing it to me. I saw it yesterday morning on the train. .
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss, I understood you to say that from the pictures you had gathered-did I understand you correctly, and your testimony, of course, will speak to this point-that from the pictures you had the impression that there was something familiar?
Mr. HISS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. But you couldn't detect it?
Mr. HISS. That is correct.
Mr. NIXON. You didn't indicate that to the committee when you first testified.
Mr. HISS. I don't recall. I did to several friends.
Mr. NIXON. You were asked that question, you will recall, when you came before the committee in public session.
Mr. HISS. I said I could not identify this person.
Mr. NIXON. You didn't indicate any familiarity at all.
Mr. HISS. I don't recall.
Mr. NIXON. Will you read his answer on that? I want to refresh his memory.
Mr. STRIPLING. This is the way it reads:
Mr. HISS. I would much rather see the individual. I have looked at all the pictures I was able to get hold of in, I think it was, yesterday's paper which had the pictures. If this is a picture of Mr. Chambers, he is not particularly unusual
looking. He looks like a lot of people. I might even mistake him for the chairman of this committee.
Mr. MUNDT. I hope you are wrong in that.
Mr. HISS. I didn't mean to be facetious but very seriously. I would not want to take oath that I have never seen that man. I would like to see him and then I think I would be better able to tell whether I had ever seen him. Is he here
today?
Mr. MUNDT. Not to my knowledge.
Did you ask the witness whether or not George Crosley ever wrote an article for American Magazine?
Mr. NIXON. Yes. He testified to that yesterday that it was your understanding that one of the magazines for which he wrote was American. Am I correct in that?
Mr. HISS. Yes; that was my understanding from him.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever see any article which appeared in American Magazine?
Mr. HISS. I never did. I noticed Mr. Crosley was not marketing his articles with the success he had expected.
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chambers, did you ever write for American Magazine?
No, I never did.
Mr. STRIPLING. You never had any articles published in American Magazine?
Not at all.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever represent yourself as a free-lance writer writing articles for American Magazine?
No, I never did.
Mr. McDOWELL. Mr. Hiss, might I say it is my custom-I too had almost constant contact with newspapermen and writers and students as you described a good bit ago-it has been my custom, although not the rule or law, that I always find out who they are writing for, who they represent, who they work for, if they are free-lance writers whether they have written anything. Can you recall ever finding out any particular thing that Mr. Cham
bers or Mr. Croslev had written?
Mr. HISS. No; I didn't. Mr. McDOWELL.
Mr. McDOWELL. Or where his things had been published other than American Magazine?
Mr. HISS. I believe you are a newspaperman yourself.
Mr. McDOWELL. Yes.
Mr. HISS. You might have a better basis for applying such a rule. I think it is a very good rule, and I certainly should want to apply it in the future.
Mr. McDOWELL. It is like one plumber asking another plumber whether he has his tools.
Mr. HISS. I am not a plumber or a writer, and so I didn't check any newspaper people about that.
Mr. McDOWELL. You testified you have never read anything he wrote ?
Mr. HISS. I never saw anything he produced. He was a singularly unproductive writer....
Mr. NIXON. You did want a confrontation at the earliest possible time.
Mr. HISS. I did.
Mr. NIXON. You asked for a confrontation.
Mr. HISS. I did not ask for a confrontation at the earliest possible time in connection with the committee informing me that they wanted me to appear in Washington on the 25th. That is not correct, Mr.Nixon.
Mr. NIXON. Then you object to having had a confrontation? That is what you want the record to show?
Mr. HISS. I want the record to show the nature of the preliminary to this particular meeting. That is all.
Mr. NIXON. The record shows it.
Mr. McDOWELL. The record is clear.
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Hiss, now that you have identified this individual who is sitting here and who is Whittaker Chambers, I ask you, did you ever meet this individual in the apartment of Henry Collins at St. Matthews Court?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever meet this individual in the company of Lee Pressman?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever meet this individual in the company of John Abt?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever meet him in the presence of Henry Collins?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever meet him in the presence of your brother, Donald Hiss?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever pay him any Communist Party dues?
Mr. HISS. I have already answered the question. To him I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. You don't object to answering the question?
Mr. HISS. Isn't it rather-.
Mr. STRIPLING. I asked you did you ever pay him.
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Let me ask the question.
Mr. HISS. I thought you had asked it.
Mr. STRIPLING. I will ask it again.
Mr. HISS. I will answer it again.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did you ever pay any Communist Party dues to Mr. Whittaker Chambers, whom you now have identified as George Crosley?
Mr. HISS. I did not and I did not pay Communist Party dues to anybody, not being a member of the Communist Party.
May I ask a question?
Mr. NIXON. You may.
Did you ever meet me in the company of Harold Ware?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Or J. Peters?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. I would like to ask the witness a question. In fact, I would like for the chairman to ask this question.
Mr. HISS. Which question?
Mr. STRIPLING. The ones the witness just asked.
Mr. McDOWELL. Did you ever meet this man in the presence of Harold Ware?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. McDOWELL. Or J. Peters?
Mr. HISS. I did not.
Mr. STRIPLING. Also known as Isidor Boorstein.
Mr. McDOWELL. Or Isidor Boorstein?
Mr. HISS. I did not. I have never heard of Isidor Boorstein.
Mr. McDOWELL. Or Alexander Stevens?.
Mr. HISS. I did not. never heard the name of Alexander Stevens before....