(August 7, 1948)
HEARINGS REGARDING COMMUNIST ESPIONAGE IN
THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT
SATURDAY, AUGUST 7, 1948
UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,
SPECIAL SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE
COMMITTEE ON UN-AMERICAN ACTIVITIES,
New York, N. Y.
EXECUTIVE SESSION 2
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10: 30 o'clock in room 101, Federal Courthouse, 2 Foley Square, New York, N. Y., Hon. Richard M. Nixon presiding.
Committee members present: Representatives Richard M. Nixon, John McDowell, and F. Edward Hebert..
Staff members present: Robert E. Stripling, chief investigator; Louis J. Russell, Donald P. Appell, and C. E. McKillips, investigators, and Benjamin Mandel, director of research for the committee.
Mr. NIXON. Let the record show that this is an executive session of a subcommittee appointed by the acting chairman of the Un-Americah Activities Committee, Karl Mundt, on August 5. Mr. Stripling, will you call the first witness?
Mr. STRIPLING. Mr. Chairman, I think the record should show those present.
Mr. NIXON. Let the record show Mr. McDowell, Mr. Hebert, and Mr. Nixon are present.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothIng but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I do.
Mr. NIXON. Be seated. Mr. Chambers, you are aware of the fact that Mr.Alger Hiss appeared before this committee, before the Un-American Activities Committee, in public session and swore that the testimony which had been given by you under oath before this committee was false. The committee is now interested in questioning you further concerning your alleged acquaintanceship with Mr. Alger Hiss so that we can determine what course of action should be followed in this matter in the future.
Mr. Hiss in his testimony was asked on several occasions whether or not he had ever known or knew a man by the name of Whittaker Chambers. In each instance he categorically said "No."
At what period did you know Mr. Hiss? What time?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I knew Mr. Hiss, roughly, between the years 1935 to 1937.
Mr. NIXON. Do you know him as Mr. Alger Hiss?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did you happen to see Mr. Hiss' pictures in the newspapers as a result of these recent hearings?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; I did.
Mr. NIXON. Was that the man you knew as Alger Hiss?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; that is the man.
Mr. NIXON. You are certain of that?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am completely certain.
Mr. NIXON. During the time that you knew Mr. Hiss, did he know vou as Whittaker Chambers?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. he did not.
Mr. NIXON. By what name did he know you?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He knew me by the party name of Carl.
Mr. NIXON. Did he ever question the fact that he did not know your last name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Not to me.
Mr. NIXON. Why not?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Because in the underground Communist Party the principle of organization is that functionaries and heads of the group, in other words, shall not be known by their right names but by pseudonyms or party names.
Mr. NIXON. Were you a party functionary?
Mr. CHAl\IBERS. I was a functionary.
Mr. NIXON. This entire group with which you worked in Washington did not know you by your real name ?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No member of that group knew me by my real name.
Mr. NIXON. All knew you as Carl?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. No member of that group ever inquired of you as to your real name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. To have questioned me would have been a breach of party discipline, Communist Party discipline.
Mr. NIXON. I understood you to say that Mr. Hiss was a member of the party.
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. How do vou know that?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I was told by Mr. Peters.
Mr. NIXON. You were told that by Mr. Peters?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. On what facts did Mr. Peters give you?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Peters was the head of the entire underground, as far as I know.
Mr. NIXON. The entire underground of the Communist Party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Of the Communist Party in the United States.
Mr. NIXON. Do you have any other evidence, any factual evidence, to bear out your claim that Mr. Hiss was a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Nothing beyond the fact that he submitted himself for the 2 or 3 years that I knew him as a dedicated and disciplined Communist. .
Mr. NIXON. Did you obtain his party dues from him?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, I did.
Mr. NIXON. Over what period of time?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Two or three years, as long as I knew him.
Mr. NIXON. Party dues from him and his wife?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I assume his wife's dues were there; I understood it to be.
Mr. NIXON. You understood it to be?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Hiss would simply give me an envelope containing party dues which I transferred to Peters. I didn't handle the money.
Mr. NIXON. How often?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Once a month.
Mr. NIXON. What did he say?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That was one point it wasn't necessary to say anything. At first he said, "Here are my dues."
Mr. NIXON. And once a month over a period of 2 years, approximately, he gave you an envelope which contained the dues?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. What did you do with that envelope?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I gave it to Peters.
Mr. NIXON. In New York?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Or Washington..
Mr. NIXON. This envelope contained dues of Hiss and other members of the group?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Only Hiss.
Mr. NIXON. You collected dues from the other members of the group individually?
Mr. CHAMBERS. An dues were collected individually.
Mr. NIXON. I see. So this money could not have been money from anybody but Hiss?.
Mr. CHAMBERS. Only from Hiss.
Mr. NIXON. Couldn't have been giving you dues for his wife and not for himself?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I suppose it is possible, but that was certainly not the understanding.
Mr. NIXON. The understanding was it was his dues?
Mr. CHAMBERS. The understanding was it was his dues. Not only that, but he was rather pious about paying his dues promptly.
Mr. NIXON. Is there anv other circumstance which would substantiate your allegation that .he was a member of the party? You have indicated he paid dues, you indicated that Mr. Peters, the head of the Communist underground, informed you he was a member of the party before you met him the first time.
Mr. CHAMBERS. I must also interpolate there that all Communists in the group in which I originally knew him accepted him as a member of the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Referred to him as a member of the party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That doesn't come up in conversation, but this was a Communist group.
Mr. NIXON. Could this have possibly been an intellectual study group?
Mr. CHAMBERS. It was in nowise an intellectual study group. Its primary function was not that of an intellectual study group. I certainly supplied some of that intellectual study business, which was part of my function, but its primary function was to infiltrate the Government in the interest of the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. At that time, incidentally, Mr. Hiss and the other members of this group who were Government employees did not have party cards?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No members of that group to my knowledge ever had party cards, nor do I think members of any such group have party cards.
Mr. NIXON. The reason is-
Mr. CHAMBERS. The reason is security, concealment.
Mr. NIXON. In other words, people who are in the Communist underground are in fact instructed to deny the fact that they are members of the Communist Party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I was told by Peters that party registration was kept in Moscow and in some secret file in the United States.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Hiss have any children?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Hiss had no children of his own.
Mr. NIXON. Were there any children living in his home?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mrs. Hiss had a son.
Mr. NIXON. Do vou know the son's name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Timothy Hobson.
Mr. NIXON. Approximately how old was he at the time you knew him? .
Mr. CHAMBERS. It seems to me he was about 10 years old.
Mr. NIXON. What did you call him?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Timmie.
Mr. NIXON. Did Mr. Hiss call him Timmie also?
MI'. CHAMBERS. I think so.
Mr. NIXON. Did he have any other nickname?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Not that I recall. He is the son, to the best of my knowledge, of Thayer Hobson, who I think is a member of the publishing house of William Morrow here in New York.
Mr. NIXON. What name did Mrs. Hiss use in addressing Mr. Hiss?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Usually "Hilly."
Mr. NIXON. "Hilly"?.
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Quite often?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. In your presence?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Not "Alger"?
Mr. CHA:M:BERS. Not "Alger."
Mr. NIXON. What nickname, if anv, did Mr. Hiss use in addressing his wife?.
Mr. CHAMBERS. More often "Dilly" and sometimes "Pross." Her name was Priscilla. They were commonly referred to as "Hilly" and "Dilly."
Mr. NIXON. They were commonly referred to as "Hilly" and Dilly"?
Mr. CHAMBERS. By other members of the group.
Mr. NIXON. You don't mean to indicate that was simply the nicknames used by the Communist group?
Mr. CHAMBERS. This was a family matter.
Mr. NIXON. In other words, other friends and acquaintances of theirs would possibly have used these names?
Did you ever spend any time in Hiss' home?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did you stay overnight?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; I stayed overnight for a number of days.
Mr. NIXON. You mean from time to time?
Mr. CHAMBERS. From time to time.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever stay longer than 1 day?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I have stayed there as long as a week.
Mr. NIXON. A week one time. What would you be doing during that time?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Most of the time reading.
Mr. NIXON. What arrangements was made for taking care of your lodging at that time? Were you there as a guest?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I made that a kind of informal headquarters.
Mr. NIXON. I understand that, but what was the financial arrangement?
Mr. CHAMBERS. There was no financial arrangement.
Mr. NIXON. You were a guest?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Part of the Communist pattern.
Mr. NIXON. Did the Hisses have a cook? Do you recall a maid?
Mr. CHAMBERS. As nearly as I can remember, they had a maid who came in to clean. and a cook who came in to cook. I can't remembmer whether they had a maid there all the time or not. It seems to me in one or two of the houses they did. In one of the houses they had a rather elderly Negro maid whom Mr. Hiss used to drive home in the evening.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall the names of the maids?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't.
Mr. NIXON. Did the Hisses have any pets?
Mr. CHAMBERS. They had, I believe, a cocker spaniel. I have a bad memory for dogs, but as nearly as I can remember it was a cocker spaniel.
Mr. NIXON. Do you remember the dog's name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. I remember they used to take it up to some kennel. I think out Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. NIXON. They took it to board it there?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes. They made one or two vacation trips to the Eastern Shore of Mary land.
Mr. NIXON. They made some vacation trips to the Eastern Shore of Maryland?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, and at those times the dog was kept at the kennel.
Mr. NIXON. You state the Hisses had several different houses when. you knew them? Could you describe anyone of those houses to us?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think so. It seems to me when I first knew him he was living on 28th Street in an apartment house. There were two almost identical apartment houses. It seems to me that is a dead-end street and this was right at the dead end and certainly it is on the right-hand side as you go up. It also seems to me that apartment was on the top floor.
Mr. NIXON. Now, what was it like inside, the furniture?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I can't remember.
Mr. MANDEL. What was Mr. Hiss' library devoted to?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Very nondescript, as I recall.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall what floor the apartment was on?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think it was on the top floor.
Mr. NIXON. The fourth?
Mr. CHAMBERS. It was a walk-up. I think the fourth.
Mr. NIXON. It could have been the third, of course?
Mr. CHAMBERS. It might have been..
Mr. NIXON. But you think it was the top, as well as you can recall?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think it was the top.
Mr. NIXON. Understand, I am not trying to hold you to absolute accuracy.
Mr. CHAJ\1BERS. I am trying to recall.
Mr. NIXON. Was there any special dish they served?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. I think you get here into something else. Hiss is a man of great simplicity and a great gentleness and sweetness of character, and they lived with extreme simplicity. I had the impression that the furniture in that house was kind of pulled together from here or there, maybe got it from their mother or something like that, nothing lavish about it whatsoever, quite simple. Their food was in the same pattern and they cared nothing about food. It was not a primary interest in their lives.
Mr. MANDEL. Did Mr. Hiss have any hobbies?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; he did. They both had the same hobby amateur ornithologists, bird observers. They used to get up early in the morning and go to Glen Echo, out the canal, to observe birds. I recall once they saw, to their great excitement, a prothonotary warbler.
Mr. McDOWELL. A very rare specimen?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I never saw one. I am also fond of birds.
Mr. NIXON. Did they have a car?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; they did. When I first knew them they had a car. Again I am reasonably sure-I am almost certain-it was a Ford and that it was a roadster. It was black and it was very dilapidated. There is no question about that. I remember very clearly that it had hand windshield wipers. I remember that because I drove it one rainy day and had to work those windshield wipers by hand.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall any other car?
Mr. CHAMBERS. It seems to me in 1936, probably, he got a new Plymouth.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall its type?
Mr. CHAJ\1BERS. It was a sedan, a two-seated car.
Mr. MANDEL. What did he do with the old car?
Mr. CHAMBERS. The Communist Party had in Washington a service station-that is, the man in charge or owner of this station was a Communist-or it may have been a car lot.
Mr. NIXON. But the owner was a Communist?
Mr. CHAMBERS. The owner was a Communist. I never knew who this was or where it was. It was against all the rules of underground organization for Hiss to do anything with his old car but trade it in, and I think this investigation has proved how right the Communists are in such matters. but Hiss insisted that he wanted that car turned
over to the open party so it could be of use to some poor organizer in the West or somewhere. Much against my better judgment and much against Peters' better judgment, he finally got us to permit him to do this thing. Peters knew where this lot was and he either took Hiss there, or he gave Hiss the address and Hiss went there, and to the best of' my recollection of his description of that happening, he lef't the car there and simply went away and the man in charge of' the station took care of the rest of it for him. I should think the records of' that transfer would be traceable.
Mr. NIXON. Where was that?
Mr. CHAMBERS. In Washington, D. C., I believe; certainly somewhere in the District.
Mr. NIXON. You don't know where?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; never asked.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall any other cars besides those two?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No, I think he had the Plymouth when I broke with the whole business.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall any other hobbies he had?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't think he had any other hobbies.
Mr. NIXON. Did they have a piano?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't believe so. I am reasonably sure they did not.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall any particular pieces of' f'urniture that they had?
Mr. CHAMBERS. The only thing I recall was a small leather cigarette box, leather-covered cigarette box, with gold tooling on it. It seems to me that box was red leather.
Mr. NIXON. Red leather cigarette box with gold tooling?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That is right.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall any particular pieces of bedroom furniture they had?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall possibly what the silver pattern was, if any? Was it sterling?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't recall.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall what kind of china ware they used?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. I have been thinking over these things and none of that stands out.
Mr. NIXON. What kind of' cocktail glasses did they have?
Mr. CHAMBERS. We never drank cocktails.
Mr. NIXON. Did they drink?
Mr. CHAMBERS. They did not drink. They didn't drink with me. For one thing, I was strictly forbidden by the Communist Party to taste liquor at any time.
Mr. NIXON. And you didn't drink?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I never drank.
Mr. NIXON. As far as you know, they never drank. at least with you?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He gave cocktail parties in Government service.
Mr. NIXON. Could you describe Mr. Hiss' physical appearance for us?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mr. Hiss, I should think, is about 5 feet 8 or 9, slender. His eyes are wide apart and blue or gray.
Mr. NIXON. Blue or gray?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think they change.
Mr. NIXON. Sort of a blue-gray?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Blueish gray, you could say. In his walk, if you watch him from behind, there is a slight mince sometime.
Mr. NIXON. A slight mince?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mince. Anybody could observe.
Mr. NIXON. Does Mrs. Hiss have any physical characteristics?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mrs. Hiss is a short, highly nervous, little woman. I don't, as a matter of fact, recall the color of her eyes, but she has a habit of blushing red when she is excited or angry, fiery red.
Mr. MANDEL. A picture of Hiss shows his hand cupped to his ear.
Mr. CHAMBERS. He is deaf in one ear.
Mr. NIXON. Mr. Hiss is deaf in one ear?
Mr. HEBEHT. Which ear?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't know. My voice is pitched very low and it is difficult for me to talk and make myself understood.
Mr. NIXON. Did he wear glasses at the time?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think he wore glasses only for reading.
Mr. NIXON. Did he tell you how he became deaf in one ear?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't recall that he did. The only thing I remember he told me was as a small boy he used to take a little wagon-he was a Baltimore boy-and walk up to Druid Hill Park, which was up that time way beyond the civilized center of the city, and fill up bottles with spring water and bring them back and sen it.
Mr. NIXON. Do you remember any physical characteristics of the boy?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Timmie?
Mr. NIXON. Yes.
Mr. CHAMBERS. Timmie was a puny little boy, also rather nervous.
Mr. NIXON. This is Mrs. Hiss' son?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Mrs. Hiss' son by Thayer Hobson, who I think is one of the Hobson cousins, a cousin of Thornton Wilder. It is possible I could be mistaken about that.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall anything else about the boy? Do you recall where he went to school?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; I do. I don't know the name of the school he was attending then, but they told me that Thayer Hobson was paying for his son's education, but they were diverting a large part of that money to the Communist Party.
Mr. NIXON. Hiss told you that?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. NIXON. Did he say how much he was paying?
Mr. CHAMBEHS. No; I don't know how much he was paying.
Mr. NIXON. Did he name the Communist Party as the recipient?
Mr. CHAMBER:. Certainly.
Mr. NIXON. He might not have said simply "the party"? Could it have been the Democratic Party or Socialist Party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. Hobson was paying for the boy's education?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; and they took him out of a more expensive school and put him in a less expensive school expressly for that purpose. That is my recollection.
Mr. NIXON. When would that have occurred?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably about 1936.
Mr. NIXON. Did they change in the middle of the year?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't recall. He was a slightly effeminate child. I think there was some worry about him.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you remember anything about his hands?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Whose?
Mr. STRIPLING. Alger Hiss'.
Mr. CHAMBERS. He had rather long delicate fingers. I don't remember anything special.
Mr; MANDEL. How is it he never wrote anything publicly?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Well, he came into the underground like so many Communists did--this was a new stage in the history of American Communists.
Mr. MANDEL. He was never in the open Communist Party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was never in the open Communist Party, came in as an underground Communist.
Mr. HEBERT. Did he have any other brothers or sisters besides Donald?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He had one sister, I believe, living with her mother in Baltimore.
Mr. HEBERT. Did he ever talk about her?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; once or twice, and mentioned his mother. He once drove me past their house, which as I recall, was on or near Linden Street.
Mr. HEBERT. What did the sister do?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't think she did anything besides live with her mother. Whether he had any more than that I don't know.
Mr. HEBERT. You know he referred to at least one sister?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He did. .
Mr. HEBERT. Do you recall her name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. And you don't recall what the sister did?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; I don't think she did anything.
Mr. HEBERT. Did it ever come up in conversation that the sister was interested in athletics?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. Was he interested in athletics?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think he played tennis, but I am not certain.
Mr. HEBERT. With the sister now-it is very important-you don't recall the sister?
Mr. CHAMBERS. We merely brushed that subject.
Mr. NIXON. You never met the sister?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; nor never met the mother. My impression was his relations with his mother were affectionate but not too happy. She was, perhaps, domineering. I simply pulled this out of the air in the conversation.
Mr. STRIPLING. Did he go to church?
Mr. CHAMBERS. He was forbidden to go to church.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know whether he was a member of a church?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't know.
Mr. STRIPLING. Do you know if his wife was a member of a church?
Mr. CHAMBERS. She came from a Quaker family. Her maiden name was Priscilla Fansler before she was married. She came from the Great Valley near Paoli, Pa.
Mr. NIXON. Did she tell you anything about her family?
MI'. CHAMBERS. No; but she once showed me while we were driving beyond Paoli the road down which their farm lay.
Mr. NIXON. You drove with them?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever go on a trip with them other than by automobile?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. NIXON. Did you stay overnight on any of these trips?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. Did she ever refer to her first husband?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I hope he will never hear this. She referred to him almost with hatred.
Mr. HERERT. What did she call him, what name?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably Thayer.
Mr. NIXON. You don't recall?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. NIXON. -When did you meet Donald Hiss?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably within the same week in which I met Alger Hiss.
Mr. NIXON. Did you ever stay in Donald Hiss' home?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No, my relation with Donald Hiss was much less close. I can make that point nO\v, if you will permit. My relationship with Alger Hiss quickly transcended our formal relationship. We became close friends.
Mr. NIXON. Donald Hiss-what relation did you have with him?
Mr. CHAMBERS. A purely formal one.
Mr. NIXON. He knew you as Carl?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did you collect dues from him?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Did you meet his wife?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I think I met her once, not very often.
Mr. NIXON. Where did vou collect the dues from him, at his home?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably in Alger's house. He frequently came there.
Mr. NIXON. He came there to see you?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes.
Mr. NIXON. Do you recall anything significant about Donald Hiss, as to personal characteristics, hobbies?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No. Something else is involved there, too. Donald Hiss was married, I think to a daughter of Mr. Cotton. who is in the State Department. She was not a Communist, and everybody was worried about her.
Mr. NIXON. Getting back to Alger Hiss for the moment, do you recall any pictures on the wall that they might have owned at the time'?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No, I am afraid I don't.
Mr. NIXON. Donald Hiss-do you know any other characteristics about him, can you recall any?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Except I can give you the general impression. He was much less intelligent than Alger. Much less sensitive than his brother. I had the impression he was interested in the social climb and the Communist Party was interested in having him climb. At one point I believe he was fairly friendly with James Roosevelt.
Mr. NIXON. Did you have any conversations with him you can recall that were out of the ordinary?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; one I think I can recall. He was working in the Labor Department, I believe in the Immigration Section, and it was the plan of the Communist Party to have him go toCalif.ornia, get himself sent by the Government to California, to work on the Bridges case. At that moment he had an opportunity to go into the State Department as, I think, legal adviser to the Philippine Section, which had just been set up. It was the opinion of the party that he should do that and not the Bridges matter. It was his opinion that he should continue in the Bridges matter and there was a fairly sharp exchange, but he submitted to discipline and went to the State Department.
Mr. NIXON. Did you make an affidavit concerning Mr. Alger Hiss?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I made a signed statement. I should think it was about 1945. Before that I had reported these facts at least 2 years before to the FBI and 9 years ago to Mr. Berle and mentioned Hiss' name.
Mr. NIXON. Nine years ago, are you certain that you did mention Hiss' name to Berle?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I certainlv mentioned Hiss' name to Berle. I was there with Berle precisely because-may we go off the record?
Mr. NIXON. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. NIXON. Have you seen Hiss since 1938?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No; since the time I went to his house and tried to break him away. I have never seen him since.
Mr. NIXON. Would you be willing to submit to a lie detector test on this testimony?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; if necessary.
Mr. NIXON. You have that much confidence?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am telling the truth.
Mr. NIXON. Thank you. I have no further questions.
Mr. HEBERT. I am interested in the houses he lived in. You said several houses. How many houses. Start from the beginning.
Mr. CHAMBERS. As well as I can remember when I first knew him he was living on Twenty-eighth Street and when I went to see Mr. Berle it struck me as strange, because Mr. Berle was living in Stimson's house on Woodley Road near Twenty-eighth Street. From there I am not absolutely certain the order of the houses, but it seems to me he moved to a house in Georgetown-that I know: he moved to a house in Georgetown-but it seems it was on the corner of P Street, but again I can't be absolutely certain of the streets.
Mr. HEBERT. It was on a corner?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; and as I recall, you had to go up steps to get to it.
Mr. MANDEL. How many rooms were there in that house?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I don't know offhand, but I have the impression it was a three-story house. I also think it had a kind of a porch in back where people sat. Then if I have got the order of the houses right, he moved to a house on an up-and-down street. a street that would cross the lettered streets, probably just around the corner from the other house and very near to his brother Donald.
Mr. HEBERT. Still in Georgetown?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Still in Georgetown. I have forgotten the reason for his moving. That was a smaller house and, as I recall, the dining room was below the level of the ground, one of those basement dining rooms; that it had a small yard in back. I think he was there when I broke with the Communist Party. .
Mr. HEBERT. Three houses?
Mr. CHAMBERS. But I went to see him in the house he later moved to, which was on the other side of Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. HEBERT. Three houses in Georgetown?
Mr. CHAMBERS. One on Twenty-eighth Street.
Mr. HEBERT. The last time you saw him when you attempted to persuade him to break away from the party?
Mr. CHAMBERS. That was beyond Wisconsin Avenue.
Mr. HEBERT. Did you ever see their bedroom; the furniture?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; but I don't remember the furniture.
Mr. HEBERT. Did they have twin beds or single beds?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I am almost certain they did not have twin beds.
Mr. HEBERT. In any of the four houses?
Mr. CHAMBERS. I can't be sure about the last one, but I am reason-
ably sure they did not have twin: beds before that.
Mr. HEBERT. This little boy, Timmie-can you recall the name of the school that he went to?
Mr. CHAMBERS. No.
Mr. HEBERT. But you do recall that he changed schools?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Yes; as nearly as I can remember, they told me they had shifted him from one school to another because there was a saving ftnd they could contribute it to the party.
Mr. HEBERT. What year?
Mr. CHAMBERS. Probably 1936.
Mr. HEBERT. Or 1937, but probably '36?
Mr. CHAMBERS. It is possible.
Mr. HEBERT. We can check the year.
Mr. CHAMBERS. The school was somewhere in Georgetown. He came back and forth every day.
Mr. NIXON. Is there anything further? If not, thank you very much, Mr. CHAMBERS. The hearing is adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 1: 10 p. m., the subcommittee adjourned.)