HARRY L. GILMER, a witness called and sworn on behalf of the People, was examined in chief by Mr. Grinnell, and testified as follows:
Q: What is your name?
A: Harry L. Gilmer.
Q: What is your business?
A: I am a painter by trade.
Q: Where do you reside?
A: 50 North Ann street.
Q: Where were you on the evening of the fourth day of May-- were you at the hay-market square, the haymarket meeting or Desplaines street that night?
A: I was, sir.
Q: What time did you arrive there?
A: About a quarter to ten o'clock.
Q: What did you do when you got there?
A: I was going home and went up as far as the corner of Randolph and Desplaines street, and there was a crowd over there, and I went across, went up to where there was some speaking going on.
Q: Which side of Desplaines street did you go on?
A: On the east side.
Q: Did you see the wagon?
A: I did dir.
Q: Did you hear the speaking?
A: I did not pay any particular attention to the speaking.
Q: Do you know where the alley is that goes into what is called Crane, Bros. manufacturing place, into, that building?
A: I do.
Q: In reference to coming there you may state what you saw and heard?
A: I came up across Randolph street, along Desplaines street to the corner of the alley, and I stood--- perhaps it would be well enough for me to explain my reasons for going there.
Q: Never mind that? Let us have the facts?
A: I went there and stood near the lamp post, between the lamppost and the wagon, and up near the east end of the wagon for a few minutes.
MR. ZEISLER: Q About what time was that?
A: As near as I can fix the time when I arrived up there, must have been about a quarter to ten, maybe a little later.
MR. GRINNELL: Q What did you see and what did you do?
A: I saw the gentleman there, (Pointing to Fielden) was speaking when I come there.
Q: Fielden was speaking was he?
A: Yes, sir, I staid around there a few minutes, was looking for a party I expected to find there, and stepped back in the alley.
MR. FOSTER: You were looking in the alley for somebody?
A: I did not say so.
MR. GRINNELL: Q Which alley?
A: The alley between Crane Bros building, and the building immediately south of it.
Q: In reference to the wagon that the speaker was on, where was that alley?
A: The alley was south of the wagon.
Q: What did you see when you stepped in there?
A: I stepped in there and was standing, looking around for a few minutes, noticed parties in conversation there.
Q: Where were they?
A: They were right across the alley when I first noticed them.
Q: Which side of the alley?
A: On the south side.
Q: What were those people doing?
A: They were standing holding a conversation there. Somebody in front of me out on the edge of the sidewalk there said, "Here comes the police." There was a sort of natural rush looking to see the police come up. There was a man came from the wagon down to the parties that were standing on the south side of the alley. He lit a match and he touched it off, something or another it was not quite as big as that, I think, (indicating). The fuse commenced to fizzle, and he gave it a couple of steps forward and tossed it over into the street.
Q: How did he do it, what was his manner?
A: If your honor will excuse me I will illustrate?
THE COURT: You can illustrate the motion.
A: He was standing in this direction. (Witness illustrating) The man that lit the match on this side of him, and two or three of them stood together, and he turned around with it in his hand, took two or three steps that way, and tossed it that way over into the street.
Q: Do you know who it was that tossed that fizzling thing. Look at that photograph, (handing witness photograph) and state
Objected to.
THE COURT: Describe the man that you saw throw that fizzing thing into the street that night?
MR. GRINNELL: Q Do you know the man?
A: I have seen him. I knew him by sight. I have seen him several times at meetings at one place and another in the city.
Q: You don't know his name?
A: I do not.
Q: Describe him?
A: He was a man about five feet, perhaps ten inches high, somewhat full chested, and he had a light or sandy beard, not very long. He was full faced here, his eyes set some what back in his lead. I should think he was a man that would probably weigh 180 pounds, perhaps, judging from the appearance of the man.
Q: What kind of clothes did he wear? if you noticed, what kind of a hat?
A: I could not say the kind of a hat, whether it was a soft hat, one of those felt hats, or whether a stiff hat. My impression is the hat was dark, brown or black.
Q: You may look at that photograph and state what is the resemblance?
Objected to; objection overruled; exception by defendants
Q: You have seen the photograph before?
A: I have sir.
Q: What do you say as to whether or not that is the man?
A: I say that is the man that threw the bomb out of the alley.
Q: How many men were standing in that group at the time the bomb was lighted and thrown?
A: Well, there was quite a number in the alley, a good many people standing around in the alley-- parties that stood, those parties there were four or five stood together there.
Q: Do you know the man-- you say that somebody came from the wagon towards the group?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Describe that man-- is it any of the defendants?
A: That is the man right there (pointing to Spies).
Q: Spies?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: In reference to the explosion of that bomb, did you see the police yourself?
A: I did not. There was so many people between me and them.
Q: Had you heard any declarations from any of the police officers about dispersing?
A: I don't recollect that I did, nothing distinctly anyway.
Q: Did you see any of the other defendants in the alley at that time?
A: That man that sits over there was one of the parties (pointing at defendant Fischer).
Q: Fischer?
A: Fischer.
MR. BLACK: Q Are you certain of that?
A: I think I be.
MR. GRI NNELL: Q What did you do then after the bomb was thrown what did these parties that you saw in this attitude and manner what did they do?
A: They immediately left through the alley.
Q: What did you do?
A: I stood there. The firing commenced immediately afterwards, and my attention was attracted by the firing, and I paid more attention to that than anything else.
Q: Where did you first see me about this matter?
Objected to; objection sustained.
CROSS EXAMINATION by Mr. Foster.
Q: Where do you live now?
A: 50 North Ann street.
Q: Are you a married man?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you ever been?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you live when you lived with your family?
A: Des Moines Iowa and Fort Dodge, Iowa.
Q: What was your business in Des Moines?
A: Painter.
Q: Whereabouts did you live?
A: I lived on the corner of Park and Tenth streets.
Q: That is North-west Des Moines is it?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Whose house did you live in--who was your landlord?
A: Myself.
Q: You owned the house?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You lived there with your family at that time?
A: I did.
Q: When did you move from Des Moines, leave Des Moines?
A: I left Des Moines six or seven years ago.
Q: Between six and seven years ago?
A: I think that it was--well, I left Des Moines in 1876 in the first place.
Q: When did you leave it in last place?
A: I left there in 1879.
Q: That was the last time that you lived there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Did you carry on the painting business for yourself or work for somebody else?
A: I did.
Q: For yourself?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How long did you live in Des Moines?
A: I went to Des Moines in 1870---that would be about nine years.
Q: From Des Moines where did you go?
A: I went out west.
Q: You went to Council Bluffs or Sioux City?
A: I did not say I went to either place.
Q: Where did you go?
A: I went to Kansas.
Q: How long did you stay in Kansas?
A: I was not there, perhaps three or four weeks at that time.
Q: Where did you next live--where was you next home after you left Des Moines?
A: My next home was here in Chicago, probably. I was travelling around most of the time while I was out was out there.
Q: Was your wife with you when you were travelling around?
A: No, sir.
Q: Where is your wife?
A: She is dead.
Q: How long was it before you had a fixed and settled habitation any where after you left Des Moines?
A: Not until I came to Chicago.
Q: When did you come to Chicago?
A: I told you I came, I think it was in 1879.
Q: Where did you take up your abode here?
A: Well, in boarding houses.
Q: Where did you first start to board, where did you first call it home?
A: It was 310 State street where I rented a room first.
Q: Did you take your meals there too?
A: No, I boarded at restaurants.
Q: Who was it you rented a room of?
A: Mrs. Davis.
Q: How long did you stay there?
A: Well, I don't know--two or three weeks I believe.
Q: Then where did you go?
A: I went to what was called at that time the Sands House.
Q: What is it called now.
A: I think it is called the Continential.
Q: You boarded there for a while?
A: I worked there for about two months.
Q: Worked there and boarded there?
A: Yes, sir
Q: Then where did you go?
A: After I got through there I went back to 310 State street, I staid there for I don't know have long.
Q: About how long?
A: I think it was about two weeks, maybe three--I don't recollect.
Q: Then where did you go?
A: Well sir, I went down to Wolf. Lake and cut ice.
Q: How long were you at Wolf Lake?
A: Three days.
Q: Where did you next live?
A: Well sir, I boarded on the corner of Halsted and Lake street.
Q: What year was this you got to Halsted and Lake?
A: I think it was in the spring of 1880.
Q: How long did you live there on Halsted street?
A: I was there, I think about four weeks.
Q: Who did you rent of there?
A: A man by the name of Barbour.
Q: Did you have a furnished room or just take board in the house
A: I boarded right in the house.
Q: And had your room there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Where did you live after that--I don't care following you by the week--when did you have some fixed place of residence?
A: My fixed place of residence has generally been in a furnished room somewhere in different parts of the city.
Q: You lived around in somebody's garret?
A: No sir, I did not live in somebody's garret.
Q: But you lived in a furnished room?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You never had a family since you lived in Chicago?
A: No, sir.
Q: You generally had a room some where and took your meals wherever you found you were hungry?
A: Yes, sir, generally.
Q: Where is it you are living now?
A: I am boarding at 50 North Ann street.
Q: How long have you been at 50 Nnorth Ann street?
A: I think it is about two months since I moved there.
Q: Do you have your room and take your meals there also?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where did you live before you went to 50 Ann Street?
A: I had a room at 22 North Ann Street.
Q: How long did you have your room there?
A: I was there about two months.
Q: Where did you take your meals?
A: I cooked my own meals.
Q: You were batching it then?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Besides that two months, where have you been before that?
A: I kept ship aboard of a vessel all winter, had charge of some vessel all winter.
Q: That is you were watchman of a vessel, and lived aboard?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: That was this last winter?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where had you lived just before you went aboard of a vessel?
A: I had a room on West Randolph Street.
Q: How long did you have that room?
A: I don't know, I think somewheres about three months.
Q: Who did you rent that room of?
A: A lady by the name of Mrs. Holt.
Q: What is the number on Randolph Street?
A: 229.
Q: Did you board with Mrs. Holt?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you take your meals at her table?
A: I did.
Q: For about three months you think?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where did you live before that, just before if you can remember your various habitations?
A: My impression is, that I was on the lake.
Q: You did not live on the lake, did you?
A: We do sometimes, yes, sir.
Q: That is you were traveling on the lake, you mean, aboard of a vessel?
A: I had been aboard of a vessel, yes, sir.
Q: Did you live aboard of the vessel?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What vessel?
A: I was aboard of the J. R. Whiting.
Q: Last year, last summer?
A: Not last summer.
Q: How long ago was it?
A: The season before.
Q: Where did you live the winter before last?
A: I kept ship aboard of a vessel.
Q: Been in the habit of being watchman during the winter season?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: How many different places have you lived in since you have been in Chicago?
A: I could not tell you.
Q: Twenty or thirty?
A: I don't know---not as many as that.
Q: Pretty near that many, is not it?
A: Well, it might be.
Q: It might be pretty near twenty or thirty places that you have lived in?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: And boarded in more places than that, taken meals more places than that?
A: Well yes, I eat in a good many places, I eat in restaurants wherever it is nearest to where I am at work.
Q: The time you were on the vessel summer before last, what vessel were you on, and who was the master of the vessel?
A: I was on the J. R. Whiting, ---I don't remember the captain's name now---captain Mc'arthur
Q: How long were you on that vessel that summer?
A: Well, I don't recollect exactly how long, I was on the latter part of the season.
Q: About how many weeks do you think?
A: I think about five.
Q: Where were you before you went on the Mc Arthur?
A: I was painting here in Chicago
Q: Where did you live?
A: I don't recollect where I did live at that time.
Q: Nor how long you lived there?
A: No, generally if I had a job in a place, I had a room near by.
Q: You changed your habitation as you changed your work from one place to another?
A: When I was out, yes, sir.
Q: You belonged to the floating population of the state, floated every week or two?
Objected to.
Q: You have lived in so many places that you can't go into details and tell us just when you have lived, and where you have lived, and how long you have lived there since you have been in Chicago?
A: I can give you a pretty good idea.
Q: You can't tell us any particular time or place where you lived after you go back a year or two?
A: Yes, I can tell you, I lived two years and a half on Carroll Avenue.
Q: What two years and a half did you live on Carroll Avenue?
A: It was in 1881 and 1882.
Q: And a part of 1883?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you have a room there?
A: I did.
Q: Who did you rent it of?
A: I boarded with a lady that I boarded with on Randolph Street, Mrs. Holt.
Q: You were there at that place two years and a half?
A: I think about that time.
Q: Is that the only place you have been that length of time at since you lived in Chicago?
A: I think I lived the longest there of any place.
Q: A good deal of the time you lived a week in a place, and two weeks in a place and three weeks, and so on?
A: I never lived a week at a place. Generally I rent a place by the month, and if I did not like it I left, and went somewheres else.
Q: You traveled around this much, because you were hard to please?
Objected to.
Q: When did you first hear that there was a reward offered in the case for the conviction of parties who threw the bomb at Hay-Market Square?
Objected to.
A: I would like to answer the question. I never heard of a reward being offered.
Q: You are not now aware that there was any reward offered?
A: I am not sir. It is the first I ever heard of it.
Q: You read the papers, don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: You can read?
A: Yes.
Q: I suppose being at the Hay-Market, you have read pretty generally the papers?
A: I read the Daily news generally in the evening.
Q: You read the Tribune sometimes?
A: Not very often, the Sunday Tribune I read.
Q: Sometimes The Times?
A: Yes.
Q: The Inter Ocean you have seen?
A: Yes sir, I have seen all the papers
Q: Herald?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: The Telegram?
A: Yes.
Q: The Sun when it is published?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You have seen accounts in various papers, more than once in regard to the arrest of these defendants?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: What particular business have you now-- what job have you now?
A: I have not got a job at anything just at present.
Q: You have had a job for the last six weeks?
A: Yes.
Q: That has been right here in the court room?
A: No, sir.
Q: Have you not been here most of the time since the testimony began?
A: Not the last six weeks.
Q: Have not you been here since the testimony began?
A: I have been here several times the last two weeks.
Q: Were not you here while we were trying to get a jury?
A: I was not.
Q: Were not you here at all during that time?
A: I was not.
Q: You read of policeman Degan, or at least some policeman being killed at the Haymarket?
A: I did.
Q: You knew that an investigation was going on before a coroner's jury to ascertain who the guilty parties were?
A: Yes, sir, I knew the coroner's jury was investigating it.
Q: You knew and heard that the matter had been submitted to the grand jury, did you not?
A: I saw an account of it in the paper.
Q: And heard that the Grand Jury had indicted these defendants, didn't you?
A: I think I did.
Q: Read it in the paper?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Up to that time had you stated that you saw the match lighted that bomb, and saw the man who threw it?
A: Up until that?
Q: Yes, sir.
A: Yes, sir.
Q: When did you first tell it?
A: I think that it was two or three days after the 4th. of May.
Q: That was the first time that you ever told any body that you saw what you have told here now?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: Now who was the party that you first told it to?
A: One of the parties who was talking about it, his name was Allen ---I don't know who the other party was.
Q: Where does Mr. Allen live?
A: He lives somewheres on Grand Boulevard---I don't know exactly where.
Q: Do you know what his first name is?
A: J. B. Allen.
Q: What is his business?
A: He is a carpenter and builder.
Q: Where were you when you told Mr. Allen this?
A: I did not say I told Mr. Allen this.
Q: I asked you who you told?
A: I said he was one of the parties that was there when I said it. One of the parties was a reporter of The Times. I learned afterwards.
Q: What is his name?
A: I don't know.
Q: What is his appearance what kind of looking man?
A: He is tall--
Q: A good looking man?
A: Pretty good looking, something like you.
Q: Good looking man like myself?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Tall and dark complexioned?
A: Something like you.
Q: A dark complexioned man and tall, and some such looking man as myself.
A: No sir, not in appearance.
Q: Who were you talking to when you stated what you had seen?
A: There was a number of people talking the matter over, right on the west side of the city hall, there where the patrol wagon was standing on La Salle Street. I don't know who the parties were. I know that Mr. Allen was one of the parties that was there, and I made the remark that I believed if I ever saw the party that threw the bomb that I should identify him.
Q: You stated if you ever saw the man who threw the bomb, you would identify him?
A: I said I thought I could.
Q: Did you direct your attention to Mr. Allen?
A: No one particular.
Q: Did you direct your attention to the reporter?
A: No one in particular.
Q: Who did you direct it to?
A: I did not direct it to anybody in particular. The talk was general around among the people that were standing there.
Q: Aside from Mr. Allen, and aside from the reporter, who were there?
A: I don't know who they were. A good many people standing there, but I don't know who they were.
Q: Did they ask you anything about why you made that remark, any of them?
A: Not at that time.
Q: Was that all the remark you made?
A: I think it was about that.
Q: Yhat was about all you said?
A: I think so.
Q: Was not this remarked immediately, when you said that you believed if ever you saw the man that threw the bomb, you would know him---did not they at once commence to ask you that you knew about it?
A: I don't think they did.
Q: Do you think that reporter heard you?
A: He told me afterwards that he did.
Q: You say that was how many days after the 4th of May?
A: I think it was about two days afterwards.
Q: That would be about the 6th of May?
A: I think so.
Q: Where were you the 5th of May?
A: I was working.
Q: Where?
A: I think on the corner of 20th and Wabash Avenue.
Q: Who were you working for that day?
A: If I worked that day I was working for Frank Crandall.
Q: What were you doing on the 6th of May?
A: I went down to 88 La Salle St. to try and collect a bill from a man. I went across the street.
Q: Where was it that this conversation was had with the reporter?
A: Well, the conversation was on the west side of the station, there in front of the police station.
Q: You mean the Desplaines Street Station?
A: No, the Central Station, there on La Salle Street.
Q: You mean by the court house, the city building there?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You cannot give us the name of any one except Mr. Allen that heard that remark?
A: The only one I recollect.
Q: Did Mr. Allen turn towards you, or this reporter or anybody else, indicating that they had heard the remark?
A: I don't think they did.
Q: Would you know that Times reporter if you would see him again?
A: I think I would.
Q: Would you know him if you would see him here as a witness on the stand?
A: I don't think I have seen him on the stand.
Q: You have not seen him as a witness on the stand?
A: He might have been on the stand, and I not see him.
Q: Have you seen Mr. Allen since that time?
A: No sir.
Q: Mr. Allen was standing near you when you made this remark?
A: He was standing there in a group with several other gentlemen.
Q: Are you acquainted with Mr. Allen?
A: Yes, sir, slightly.
Q: Work at the same place?
A: No, sir, I worked for him a short time.
Q: It called forth no response from Mr. Allen, nor from the reporter?
A: I think that the reporter made some remark about it.
Q: What did he say?
A: I could not recollect what he said.
Q: You think he did make some remark?
A: I think he did.
Q: Did you reply to that remark?
A: I think I might have reiterated what I said—I think I could identify him if I seen him.
Q: What kind of hat did the reporter have on that occasion?
A: I think he had on one of those stiff black hats. I am not positive about it.
Q: All the remark you made that you can now remember is, that if you ever saw the man that threw the bomb, that you would know him?
A: Yes sir.
Q: When did you again speak of this matter to any one?
A: Well, I think that night I had a note left at my room, I think that night for me to come down to the central station.
Q: What was the date of that note, do you remember?
A: I don't think there was any date on it.
Q: Whose name was signed to it, if anybody's?
A: James Bonfield.
Q: Did you go?
A: I did.
Q: You went to the Central Station?
A: I did.
Q: You saw James Bonfield there did you?
A: I did.
Q: You had a conversation with Mr. Bonfield?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That would then be about the 7th. day of the month--- if this conversation was two days afterwards, if the Haymarket meeting was the 4th that would bring it to the 6th, that night you received the note, and the next day you went down, which would be about the 7th. of May?
A: 6th. or 7th. somewheres about that time, I could not tell you exactly.
Q: You told Mr. Bonfield in that conversation just what you have told here?
A: I think I did.
Q: Several others with you?
A: Yes.
Q: And yet you were never subpoenaed to appear before any coroners jury that examined any policemen, were you?
A: No sir.
Q: Mr. Bonfield took your name?
A: He had my name.
Q: He took you address?
A: He did.
Q: He took your entire statement?
A: What I told him, yes sir.
Q: Did he take it down in writing?
A: I don't think he did.
Q: You never appeared before any coroners jury?
A: I did not.
Q: When were you subpoenaed to come here?
A: Somewheres about two weeks ago.
Q: Were you subpoenaed to be here at that time, or was there any date fixed at which you were to appear?
A: I received a note from the State's attorney asking me to come to his office.
Q: When were you subpoenaed?
A: I have never been served with subpoenae.
Q: You have been here in attendance upon this trial most of the time for two weeks, without ever being subpoenaed at all?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How, long were you at the Haymarket meeting? How many minutes?
A: Well, I suppose I was perhaps there twenty minutes.
Q: Tewnty minutes altogether?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where was the first place you stopped when you went to the meeting?
A: The first place I stopped was right at the lamp post at the corner of the alley.
Q: Crane's Alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How many feet from where Mr. Fielden was speaking?
A: Now I did not measure across the alley or I would give you the exact distance.
Q: How wide is the alley according to the plat there?
A: I think it is about twelve feet.
MR. PURCELL Eleven feet ten inches.
THE WITNESS; That would be then, I was about 20 or 24 feet from where I first stopped here to where the gentleman was speaking.
Q: You remianed at that place did you, until you went into the alley?
A: I did not.
Q: Where did you go?
A: I went across the alley.
Q: Further north?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Then you were nearer to the speaker than you were before?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you stay there?
A: I staid around there for a few minutes.
Q: From the time you got there you never left the locality of the mouth of the alley, except the time you went into the alley, did you?
A: No, I was around between the wagon and alley all the time I was there.
Q: You think from the time you got there and stopped until the explosion of the bomb that it was in the neighborhood of twenty minutes, that would be your best judgment?
A: No not as long as that, I was there sometime after the bomb explosion.
Q: How long were you there from the time you went there up to the explosion of the bomb?
A: It was perhaps fifteen minutes.
Q: That would be your judgment?
A: Somewheres near that.
Q: How many speakers were speaking while you were there? more than one?
A: No one but Mr. Fielden.
Q: Mr. Fielden was the man speaking when you got there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Was there anything particular to attract your attention at anything else than the speaking during the time you stood there before you went into the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: There was something to attract your attention?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You were looking for somebody?
A: Yes sir, I was.
Q: As people come along you looked?
A: I was looking for one particular person.
Q: During the time you were there of course you were not talking with others, were you?
A: No sir.
Q: Where did they live?
A: 26 Willard Place.
Q: How far was that from the mouth of the alley?
A: Well, it is half a mile I guess pretty near.
Q: And yet you were standing looking for him in the mouth of the alley, and he had not told you he was going to be at the mouth of the alley then or any other time, had he?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Had he told you he was going to meet you at the mouth of the alley?
A: No, but he said he was going to the meeting.
Q: He did not tell you he was going to be at the mouth of the alley.
A: No sir.
Q: Did you circulate around through the crowd trying to hunt this man.
A: I did not.
Q: You merely stood and as passers by came you glanced at their faces to see whether it was not the man?
A: I kept looking through the crowd.
Q: Tell us what Fielden said during the time you were there?
A: I could not tell you.
Q: Can you tell us one syllable or one word?
A: I heard him making use of the word "McCormick"--- was telling something about McCormicks strike up there.
Q: What did he say about it, tell us what he said?
A: I could not tell you anything about it.
Q: It was McCormick's strike?
A: Had reference to it something about McCormick's--- I recollect hearing him make use of the word.
Q: Don't you remember then that he said they had tried to prevent him from speaking out near McCormick's?
A: I could not say.
Q: Don't you remember that he did say that they tried to keep him from speaking because he was a socialist?
A: I did not hear him say it.
Q: What other language did he say that you heard, except something about the word "McCormick"?
A: I told you I did not know, don't remember anything he said--- nothing more than that word. I remember hearing him say something about McCormick's.
Q: You told the States Attorney you did not remember anything and now you say you heard him talk about McCormick's?
A: I told you I don't remember what he said. I did not hear him say anything further than hearing him make use of that word.
Q: You heard there was a meeting the day before near McCormick's? that there had been a riot, and some man had been shot?
A: I saw it in the paper.
Q: You knew it before you went to the meeting?
A: I knew it before I went down town, that there had been a meeting, a riot the day before over in the southwest part of the city.
Q: And there had been shooting?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And that a mob had stoned the police and the police shot into the mob, and some men had been shot, you heard that?
A: I saw an account of it in the paper.
Q: When Fielden was talkijg about this McCormick matter, didn't you hear a single exclamation or word which you can remember in regard to it?
A: I could not.
Q: You stood there for twenty minutes?
A: I did not say so.
Q: You stood there for about fifteen minutes?
A: I was around in that neighborhood perhaps fifteen minutes.
Q: The only word that you can give us that you can now remember that was said by Mr. Fielden is "McCormicks".
A: I told you I did not pay any attention to what he was saying. I was looking for a gentleman that I expected there.
Q: Who was the gentleman?
A: Richard Roe.
Q: It was not John Doe then?
A: No sir, it was not Foster either.
Q: Where did Richard Roe live?
A: He lived at 26 Willard Place at that time.
Q: Does he live there now?
A: He does not.
Q: Where does he live now?
A: 60 North Ann Street.
Q: Is that the same place you live?
A-, I board there, sir.
Q: He also boards there?
A: It is his house.
Q: Did you see Mr. John Doe that night?
A: No sir.
Q: Or Richard Roe?
A: No sir.
Q: You did not see him there that night at all?
A: No sir.
Q: How far did you step down the alley when you turned around to go back the alley?
A: I think it is about eight feet from the corner of Crane's Building.
Q: On the North side.
A: I was on the north side.
Q: Where was this group of men?
A: Right across the alley.
Q: On the south side?
A: Yes sir.
Q: It was light in the alley?
A: The lamp was burning on the corner of the alley at that time.
Q: It shined right down?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You could see them distinctly?
A: Yes.
Q: See their countenances?
A: Yes sir.
Q: They could see yourself?
A: Yes.
Q: How far were they down from the mouth of the alley?
A: About the same distance, eight or nine feet.
Q: Did you hear them talk?
A: I heard them talking, yes, sir.
Q: What did they say?
A: I could not tell you.
Q: Could not you understand?
A: No sir.
Q: Were they speaking English?
A: No sir.
Q: Spekaing German?
A: Yes sir.
Q: If they had been speaking English did they speak loud enough so you could understand it?
A: If they had been speaking English I could understand part of it any way.
Q: You would have been able to tell us what they said if you understood their language?
A: Yes sir.
Q: But you can not tell us anything of what the man that spoke fifteen minutes said, that was speaking English?
A: I did not pay any attention at all.
Q: At the time you say that Mr. Spies is the man that came with the match?
A: The man that came from the wagon down in the alley.
Q: Had they moved their position from where they stood before the match was lighted?
A: They stood there in the group together.
Q: Had they moved their position, that is, had they gone out on the sidewalk before the bomb was lighted, down the alley on the south side?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You were close to the north side?
A: I stood across the alley and stodd right behind them.
Q: At the time the match was lighted or before that?
A: Before the man came from the wagon, I stepped across the alley, and was standing there on the north side of the alley.
Q: How naer to this knot of men there?
A: Perhaps three or four feet.
Q: Were you standing to the west or east of them?
A: I was standing to the east of them.
Q: Then you were further in the alley than they were?
A: I was further in the alley at that time.
Q: If they were eight or ten feet in the beginning and you were four feet further, you would be twelve to fourteen feet from the mouth of Crane's Alley there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Don't you know that you could not see the wagon from that point?
A: I did not say that I saw the wagon from that point.
Q: As a matter of fact you could not see the wagon?
A: From where I stood I could just see---
Q: The tail board?
A: The hind end of the wagon from where I stood when I went in the alley.
Q: Just the hind end of the wagon where the tail board would be if there was a tail board?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Was there a tail board?
A: I think there was.
Q: How high were the edges of the box of that wagon if you know?
A: I should think they were perhaps ten inches.
Q: Was'nt it higher than that, was'nt there side boards on that wagon?
A: Well, I don't know whether there were or not.
Q: You are not certain?
A: I could, not say positively as to the width of the sideboards on the wagon.
Q: So then the sideboards would have been higher than ten inches?
A: They might, yes sir.
Q: According to your best judgment you remember the side-boards were at least ten inches high?
A: Yes sir, I should say so.
Q: You remember as a matter of fact as the speakers stood in the wagon you could not see their feet--- I will ask you if you don't remember the side-boards came above their knees instead of below?
A: I could not say.
Q: What is your recollection as to particular portions of their bodies and legs that you could see, as they stood their in the wagon, with reference to the height of the side-boards or the boxes?
A: Well, I could not say perhaps half way up to their knees, I did not pay any attention to it, and could not say positively.
Q: You are sure the box was not off the wagon altogether and they had just a platform?
A: No, I am not sure about that. There was a box of some kind in the wagon.
Q: You don't know the height of the edge of the box?
A: No sir.
Q: What would you say as to whether that was not one of these freight wagons that had nothing but an occasional stick along the edge--- what do you say as to that was it that kind of a wagon?
A: My impression is, it was a wagon about twelve or thirteen feet long, with low side-boards on it--- I would not be positive about it.
Q: Now then did you see the tail board that you say was at the south end?
A: I did not notice it particularly.
Q: You don't know whether the tail board was up or dropped down below the bottom of the box?
A: I could not say.
Q: You could just see the hind end of that?
A: Yes, I could after I went in the alley.
Q: After you went in the alley and just before the explosion of the bomb, how many men did you see get off of that wagon at the hind end?
A: I don't know. I saw one or two I think get off the wagon, I think one of them got right over the hind wheel and jumped down on the side walk.
Q: How could you see the hind wheel if you only saw the end?
A: That was before I went in the alley.
Q: That was when you were standing up to the north side before you went in the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: I mean after you got in the alley after you got down the alley eight or ten feet and was standing there on the north side of the alley, how many men did you see get off the wagon?
A: I did not see any get off the wagon after I went in the alley.
Q: From the time you went down in the alley you saw no man absolutely get off the wagon either side or anywhere else?
A: Not after I went in the alley.
Q: Then why do you say that Mr. Spies got down off of the wagon?
A: I did not say Mr. Spies got down off of the wagon. I said he came from towards the wagon.
Q: You did not day he got down off the wagon?
A: I did not.
Q: You deny he did get off the wagon to your knowledge?
A: Is that my answer?
Q: Never mind. You don't now say that you saw Mr. Spies get down off of the wagon?
A: I did not say I saw him get down off of the wagon. I said he came from the wagon.
Q: If you were in a position where you could not see the wagon, how do you know he came from the wagon?
A: I saw him standing on the sidewalk before I went in the alley.
Q: You saw him standing on the sidewalk before you went into the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That was several seconds before the bomb was thrown?
A: Yes sir.
Q: So then you say that Mr. Spies was not in the wagon when you went into the alley?
A: I did not say I saw Spies in the wagon at all.
Q: Did not you see this man standing on the sidewalk (pointing to Mr. Spies)?
A: Yes sir, that man, I saw him on the sidewalk before I went in there.
Q: Mr. Spies this man, I say it is Mr. Spies, because it is--- this man, Mr. Spies you saw standing upon the sidewalk before you ever went into the alley at all?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And he is the man that struck the match?
A: He is the man that come down in the alley.
Q: And lighted the bomb?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Mr. Spies is the man?
A: I should say he was to the best of my recollection.
Q: To the best of your recollection--- your recollection is pretty good?
A: It generally is.
Q: At the time Mr. Spies went in the alley, Mr. Spies was standing on the sidewalk how near to the wagon?
A: I could not say, He was standing on the sidewalk there talking with somebody. I don't know who.
Q: Did you hear what he said?
A: I did not.
Q: Was he speaking German or English?
A: I could not say.
Q: I will ask you if this gentleman here with the glasses (pointing to Schwab) is not the man he was talking with, by the side of the wagon, according to your judgment now?
A: I would be inclined to think it was, but I don't know.
Q: You think now your best judgment is you could see him there nearest to the lamp?
A: I did not pay any particular attention to who he was talking with.
Q: You would say, according to your best judgment, that this man, Mr. Schwab, was the man talking with him at the side of the wagon?
A: It might have been.
Q: Not it might have been, but do you think it was?
A: I could not say.
Q: Does it look like him?
A: I think it was a dark complexioned man, but I could not say whether that was the man or not.
Q: You said a while ago, your impression was, that probably it might be him?
A: It might be. My impression is it might be him
Q: He was only five or six miles away. Perhaps you are right about that. Now, you say that Mr. Fischer, this gentleman that I call Mr. Fischer, because it is Mr. Fischer, that gentleman, (pointing to Fisher) was among those who composed the group where the bomb was lighted?
A: I should say he was.
Q: You don't have very much doubt about that?
A: Very little.
Q: Then your testimony is that Fischer is the man?
A: I should say he was one of them.
Q: Are you as positive that Fischer is the man as you are positive that that picture is the picture of the man who threw the bomb? (WItness examines photograph).
A: Well very nearly so.
Q: You little rather go by a picture than by a man's face?
A: I am sure that is the man.
Q: You are as sure of that as you are that that is the man that threw the bomb, Schnaubelt?
A: Yes.
Q: You are as sure of that as you are that Mr. Spies is the man who lighted the match?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Do you know where Zepf's Hall is?
A: I do.
Q: Was you up to Zepf's Hall that night?
A: I was not.
Q: You don't know what ones of these defendant were at Zepf's hall at the time the Bomb exploded?
A: I do not.
Q: Don't you recognize Mr. Parsons here this small man, as being the man that you saw on the wagon there?
A: I think I have seen Mr. Parsons, I guess I seen him that night I seen him quite a number of times in different places.
Q: You know Mr. Parsons, that is, know him by his face?
A: Yes.
Q: You saw him on the wagon that night, you know don't you?
A: My impression is that I saw Mr. Parsons talking to some ladies.
Q: On the wagon?
A: No not on the wagon.
Q: You were not there when Parsons spoke?
A: No sir, I saw him there, but I think he was speaking to some ladies or was near by some ladies.
Q: You dont remember having seen him on the wagon that night?
A: I am not positive.
Q: Were you at any time north of Cranes Alley any considerable distance?
A: Not further than the wagon.
Q: You did not go up, that night any time up, to Lake street?
A: No sir.
Q: And you were just about the alley, a few steps north, as far as the wagon?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where had you been that evening?
A: I had been down to the Palmer House.
Q: You were not boarding at the Palmer House then were you?
A: No sir.
Q: What were you doing down at the Palmer House?
A: I went to see some gentleman that I understood were in the city.
Q: From Des Moines?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Who were they?
A: ONe of them was Judge Cole Another was Ex-Governor Samuel Merrill.
Q: They are friends of yours?
A: I am acquainted with them.
Q: Did you find Judge Cole there?
A: I did not.
Q: Or Mr. Merrill?
A: I did not.
Q: Do you know whether Mr. Merrill was living at that time or not?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Living now?
A: He was a short time ago.
Q: Did you see him that night?
A: I did not.
Q: What time was it you went down to the Palmer House?
A: I left my rooms according to my time about a quarter past seven.
Q: How long did it take you to go down to the Palmer house?
A: Well, I don't know. I walked over to Mr. Roe's, 26 Willard Place, and from there I went to Madison street and took the car and went down.
Q: What time was it you got there?
A: I don't recollect.
Q: You went from there over to the meeting?
A: Yes sir, I went from there and went over to Randolph Street.
Q: Do you carry a watch with you?
A: I do not.
Q: Now, at the time you went over to the Haymarket did you look at any clocks to see what time it was?
A: When I left, started, when I came past the time opposite the Briggs House there nearly, it was half past nine o'clock by that time.
Q: Then you walked on over, and was that on your road home?
A: Yes sir.
Q: At the time how did you come to stop at the Haymarket?-- was it on account of seeing the crowd there and hearing the speaking?
A: Well, Mr. Roe told me he was going to the meeting, and I thought I would see him there, and I went there to see if I could meet him and go home together.
Q: The business you had with Mr. Roe was simply to have company with him home, when the meeting was out?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You did not go there for the purpose of any business transaction with anybody?
A: I did not say so, I did not say I went for that.
Q: The only thing was you were looking for a companion to walk the balance of the way?
A: Yes.
Q: How far was it from there where you lived?
A: I lived at 22 Ann street and he lived at 26 Will-ard place, half a block apart at that time.
Q: How far was it from the Haymarket that he would accompany you if you had met him?
A: About eight or nine blocks, I believe.
Q: You were so interested in looking for a man to walk the balance of the way, eight or nine blocks, that you did not hear anything that the speaker said?
A: I did not pay any attention to what the speaker said.
Q: Where does Ex-Governor Merrill live?
A: Des Moines Iowa.
Q: Do you remember what Mr. Cole's name is?
A: Chester C. Cole.
Q: You lived near Mr. Cole's place did you, when you lived in Des Moines?
A: Not a gret ways from him.
Q: Not very far from him?
A: Used to see him every day of two done some work for him.
Q: Now, at the time you looked at the clock at the Briggs House and started over to the Haymarket, did you stop on the way over, or did you walk right along?
A: I stopped at the bridge for a few minutes.
Q: Was the bridge opened?
A: Yes.
Q: You stopped until they closed it?
A: Yes.
Q: How long did it take you to walk over there?
A: I don't know I did not walk very fast--- how long it was.
Q: Did you walk home with anybody after the meeting was over?
A: No sir.
Q: You went home alone?
A: I took the car and went home.
Q: At what time did you take the car and go home?
A: Well, it is about after the disturbance there on Desplaines street was over after the shooting was all over, I went back through the alley, and a car came along and I took the car and went home.
Q: You run away did'nt you at the time of the shooting?
A: No sir.
Q: You did not move a peg?
A: No sir.
Q: You stood right at the mouth of that alley?
A: I did.
Q: Did not go any further in it at the time of the fusilade?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you walk out towards the mouth of the alley?
A: No sir, stayed just about one place.
Q: After it was all over, you walked out?
A: Yes sir.
MR. GRINNELL: Q: Where did you walk?
A: Backed out of the alley.
MR. FOSTER: Q: Walked through the front of the alley?
A: Back through the alley.
Q: You stood there until the firing had ceased?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Any bullets coming there?
A: Not in around my locality.
Q: Did you see anybody shoot at all?
A: A good many-- I saw a good many shots fired.
Q: Did you see a good many shoot?
A: I saw a good many shots fired--- did not see the parties that shot, nothing more than flashes of the revolvers.
Q: The police had passed the mouth of the alley?
A: Yes sir at the time the firing commenced.
Q: You saw a great many flashes there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You heard the reports?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You did not see any particular man shoot?
A: No sir, I don't know that I did see any particular party shoot.
Q: There were no parties, citizens, about the mouth of the alley that you saw shoot?
A: No sir, when the police came up there they commenced going back through the alley, and going a way.
Q: All but you?
A: I think I was about the last one that went through.
Q: You stayed until after the firing was over and gradually sauntered through?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That was not your road home?
A: No sir.
Q: When you got home did you talk with any body in the street car about the occurrences there, on your way home?
A: No sir.
Q: The street car was full?
A: Quite a number of people in it.
Q: Were not they talking about the Haymarket and what occurred?
A: They were talking about it.
Q: Was not there a great deal of excitement there in the car, on account of it?
A: Considerable.
Q: You never told a man, woman or child that you had been there and saw the man who threw the bomb?
A: I did not say anything about it.
Q: You went home?
A: I went home.
Q: And went to bed?
A: And went to bed.
Q: Did not tell anybody after you got home?
A: I did not happen to see anybody.
Q: Did you just have a room there or did you board there?
A: I had a room there.
Q: Where did you take your meals?
A: Cooked them myself.
Q: The next day you got up and got your breakfast and went to South Chicago to work?
A: No, I did not do anything of the kind.
Q: What did you do?
A: I went to work.
Q: Were?
A: I think I worked that day on the corner of Twentieth and Wabash avenue.
Q: Is not that south Chicago?
A: No sir.
The court: South Chicago is a place down at Calumet.
Mr. Foster:
Q: You went down on the street car, didn't you?
A: I went down on the street car.
Q: Did you go over on the Wabash Avenue Grip, or the State Street Grip?
A: I went down on the Wabash avenue.
Q: Now, when you came out from you house where you lived, how did you get down to take the grip car, did you walk or ride in the street car?
A: I walked.
Q: When you came out of the house that morning, you found every body was reading newspapers and talking about the Hay-Market?
A: I seen a good many reading.
Q: Didn't you hear a good many talking about it?
A: No, I did not hear any people talking about it, because I did not have any business with anybody to talk---I was at my work.
Q: Didn't you hear expressions about what had happened?
A: I heard gentlemen speaking about it in the restaurant where I took my breakfast.
Q: Where did you take your breakfast that morning?
A: On Madison street just west of Aberdeen.
Q: How many people were in the restaurant when you took your breakfast?
A: Three of four---I don't know.
Q: They were talking about what happened the night before?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Now, I will ask you whether you said one word to the people that were talking there about what happened before, or the fact of your being there, seeing the match lighted and the bomb thrown that created this disaster?
A: I did not.
Q: That was the morning after?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You ate your breakfast at this restaurant you tell about?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You did not cook it yourself?
A: Not that morning.
Q: You told us a moment ago when I asked you where you got your breakfast that you cooked it yourself.
A: I said I sometimes I done my own cooking.
Q: How was it that time?
A: When I was late mornings I went to the restaurant and got breakfast.
Q: So when you stated you cooked your breakfast that morning, you did not state the fact?
A: I did not state I cooked my breakfast that morning
Q: As a matter of fact you did not cook your breakfast that morning yourself, but you did go to a restaurant, and did hear them talk about the hay-market meeting?
A: Yes, sir, I heard it spoken of.
Q: You did not open your head and say that you were there and saw what no other man had seen?
A: I did not.
Q: Never said a word?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you talk at all with those parties?
A: I ordered my breakfast.
Q: Did you talk about the hay-market?
A: I did not.
Q: Not a word?
A: No, sir.
Q: You didn't say you had heard it before or did not hear about it?
A: I did not say anything about it.
Q: Did you buy the news that morning?
A: I think I bought the news on the car.
Q: After you got your breakfast at the restaurant you got on the car?
A: I walked down to Wabash avenue and took the car.
Q: At the time you walked down there did you hear anybody talking about the hay-market meeting?
A: No sir.
Q: When you got on the Wabash avenue car, then it was the topic of conversation?
A: I don't recollect whether I heard much said one way or the other. I read in the paper what time I had to go up there.
Q: Do you remember anything?
A: I don't remember anything.
Q: When you fot up there, who was it you were working for?
A: I think I was working for Frank Crandall that day.
Q: Is he a painter?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: He had a job, did he?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: You were working by the day, were you?
A: I was.
Q: How many men were working there with you that day?
A: To the best of my recollection there was only one working there with me on that job.
Q: What was his name?
A: I could not tell you -- I don't recollect.
Q: What kind of work were you doing there?
A: I was finishing up, painting around the house on the outside.
Q: Was he assisting you?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did you have a scaffold?
A: No sir.
Q: You worked from ladders?
A: Our work was mostly on the ground.
Q: You worked together, as close together as painters could work?
A: Yes, sir, some times we were, and sometimes we were a part.
Q: How far apart were you?
A: Sometimes he was working in one part of the house, and sometimes we were working together.
Q: When you were working together, how near to each other were you?
A: Worked alongside of each other sometimes.
Q: Talked, didn't you?
A: About some things.
Q: You had a general conversation during the day, when you were working near each other?
A: About our business, yes sir.
Q: How much of the time were you working near each other and how much of the time separate?
A: I could not say.
Q: Were you working near him half the time?
A: No, I think not.
Q: A third of the time?
A: Perhaps so.
Q: Did you eat your dinner at the house or did you go to the restaurant?
A: I went to the restaurant.
Q: Did he go with you?
A: No sir.
Q: He had his dinner?
A: Yes sir.
Q: During the time you were there and working, you say probably a third of the time, with this man, and talking about general matters---you were good friends, were you not?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You had no trouble?
A: No sir.
Q: You talked freely to him?
A: Yes sir, about our business.
Q: Did you say to him that you saw the bomb thrown?
A: I did not.
Q: That created this disturbance, and saw the man light the match that lit the bomb?
A: I did not.
Q: You never spoke of being at the hay-market meeting at all?
A: Yes sir, I did. I told him I was there.
Q: You were speaking about the hay-market meeting?
A: Was speaking of the riot, and I said I was there, was going home at the time it occurred.
Q: Did either one say to the other that a number of men were killed, and fifty or sixty wounded?
A: I think I said there was a number wounded, killed or wounded, something.
Q: From what you see and from what you read in the paper, you found that a number had been killed, and a larger number wounded?
A: I read the paper while I was gone to my dinner.
Q: When you had this conversation with this man, was that the first he heard of it, or from his conversation, was it the first he heard of it?
A: The first he heard of it was what he read in the paper.
Q: He read the paper also?
A: He read my paper at noon.
Q: In the afternoon you first discussed it before you commenced to go to work?
A: I don't think we did.
Q: Didn't you talk about the Haymarket and that some had been killed and others wounded?
A: I don't think there was much said about it one way or the other. I don't recollect.
Q: Didn't you say to him that there was some killed and some wounded?
A: Yes.
Q: At this conversation at which you told him some were killed, and some were wounded, did you say a word that you had seem the missile thrown yourself?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Or that you had seen it lighted?
A: No, I did not.
Q: Or that you would recognize the man if you ever seen him again?
A: No, because I did not consider it was anybody's business.
Q: In the afternoon you had no such conversation as this with this man?
A: No sir.
Q: Where did you get your supper?
A: I think I cooked it myself that night, when I got home, I am not positive.
Q: Did you have a stock of provisions at home?
A: When I did not have, I went and bought it.
Q: Do you remember whether you had that night?
A: I think I did.
Q: Then you had enough to cook your breakfast in the morning?
A: I was late that morning, --- I went out that morning.
Q: That night you cooked it---you went down in the grip didn't you, on Wabash avenue?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That was the topic of conversation in the street car?
A: There was people speaking about it in the car.
Q: Did you tell them you knew anything about it?
A: I did not.
Q: You went back home and cooked supper---did you have any talk with the landlady that night?
A: I did not see her --- I night have seen her, but had no conversation with her.
Q: What time did you get home?
A: I think it was about half past six.
Q: What time did you get through with your supper?
A: When I cook my own supper, I don't get through until after seven o'clock.
Q: Did you wash your dishes?
A: I did.
Q: How long was it the time you got through with washing dishes?
A: I could not tell you---I did not time it.
Q: Probably a little after seven o'clock?
A: Something like that.
Q: Then you went immediately to bed.
A: I did not.
Q: Then where did you go if you did not go to bed?
A: Well, I think, I am not positive, but my impression is that I went over to Mr. Roe's that night.
Q: Was Mr. Roe at home that night?
A: I think not. No sir.
Q: Did you see his wife?
A: I did.
Q: Did you stay there and visit with her?
A: I stayed there perhaps fifteen minutes.
Q: Talked with Mrs. Roe?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did her husband come during the time you were there visiting his wife?
A: No sir.
Q: Any other member of the family there?
A: The family were there.
Q: What did the family consist in?
A: They have a little girl twelve or thirteen years old.
Q: The daughter was there during this conversation?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Now, did you say anything to Mrs. Roe about, make in inquiries as to whether her husband got there at that meeting that you expected to see him at the night before?
A: She said she would not let him go out--- he would have been there, but she would not let him go out.
Q: Then you proceeded to-talk about what occurred at the Haymarket meeting?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You told her you were there?
A: I did.
Q: She said her husband was not there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You talked about the number that had been killed and wounded, according to what you heard, and what the papers contained?
A: I think we did something like that.
Q: Did you say to Mrs., roe, or did you say to anybody on that occasion that you saw the match lighted that lighted the bomb, and that you saw the bomb thrown that made all this disaster?
A: I never told anybody except the state's attorney.
Q: You don't mean that, you never told anybody but the state's attorney?
A: No sir.
Q: Which do you call the state's attorney?
A: Mr. Grinnell.
Q: Is he the only man living that you ever told that to now?
A: No, I think I told them in the central station that I could recognize the man that threw the bomb.
Q: You told them you could recognize the man, but you did not tell anybody but Grinnell that you saw the match struck that lighted the fuse that exploded the bomb?
A: I don't think I ever did outside of the officers.
Q: You told us just now you did not tell anybody?
A: I don't think I ever told anybody that except Mr. Grinell.
Recess until two o'clock.
2 o'clock P.M. Court re-assembled.
HARRY L. GILMER, cross examination resumed by Mr. Foster.
Q: Have you been to dinner Mr. Gilmer?
A: Yes, sir. I wish to state to the jury that those answers that I made to my learned friend here, with regard to my not saying anything--
Q: (interrupting) Who has told you to make this statement?
A: No body.
MR. GRINELL: If you have any explanation to make, you can make it whem he gets through.
THE WITNESS: Fire away.
THE COURT: If the witness wishes to correct anything that he made this forenoon, stating that he made any mistake, let him make his correction.
MR. FOSTER: All right.
THE COURT: What is the subject you want to correct about?
THE WITNESS: The answers that I made with regard to my not saying anything to anybody at all, my learned friend wanted to draw out that I contracted myself, when I said that I had never said anything to anybody with to regard to this lighting of this match, and so on. My answers had reference to anybody after the conversation I had with the officers of the central station, and the district attorney -- that is all the explanation I wish to make on that.
Mr. FOSTER: I don't understand it.
THE WITNESS: Fire away then, and you can find out.
Mr. FOSTER: Q You have had your dinner?
A: Yes sir I have.
Q: Where did you have it?
A: I went to a saloon and restauraunt and had a lunch.
Q: Do you know Mr. Bonfield, the detective you were talking about this morning?
A: I do.
Q: You have had a talk with him, haven't you, since the court adjourned?
A: I did not.
Q: Were not you just now walking back and forth in the corridor with him?
A: I did not have no --
Q: (interrupting) Didn't you walk back and forth?
A: Yes sir.
Q: How many times did you walk back and forth?
A: I don't think more than onec.
Q: You were talking with him?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You did have a conversation since court adjourned then?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Do you want to make any correction in regard to that statement?
A: No sir.
Q: You told Bonfield something about this two days afterwards?
A: I think Inspector was one of the Officers.
Q: Do you mean Inspector Bonfield, or the detective Bonfield?
A: I mean Inspector Bonfield.
Q: The man that sits there (pointing to Inspector Bonfield)?
A: That gentleman there.
Q: He was not the man you were walking with in the hall down stairs?
A: No sir.
Q: At the time you talked with Bonfield you simply told him that you believed you could recognize the man who threw the bomb-- is that so?
A: I am not positive whether I said it to Inspector Bonfield or Lieut. Kipley.
Q: Well, to one or the other-- when did you have a talk with Lieut. Kipley?
A: Down at the central station.
Q: Did you know him two days after the 4th of May?
A: I knew him by sight for some time.
Q: Was it the same day you had the talk with Inspector Bonfield you had the conversation?
A: I think it was.
Q: You had a talk with both of them, that day?
A. I think they were both in the Central Station.
Q: You stated that fact to them, that Mr. GRINELL was the first man that you ever told that you saw the man light the match and set fire to the fuse, which was afterwards thrown by Schnaubelt into the police?
A: I think I told him that I could recognize the man if I ever saw him again.
Q: Answer my question. I know you told Bonfield that. Did you tell Kipley that the first man that you ever did tell that you saw the match struck and the fuse lighted, and the bomb thrown, that that man was Mr. Grinell, State's attorney?
A: I am not positive whether I made that remark to Inspector Bonfield and Lieu. Kipley before I made it to Mr. Grinell or not.
Q: I asked you this forenoon about it, who the first man was you told this to about striking the match and lighting the fuse I ask you now whether or not it was not true it was Grinell?
A: I think I had some conversation to that effect with Mr. Bonfield at the central station.
Q: So then now, you say that Mr. Bonfield was the firstman that you told about this?
A: The officers at the central station.
Q: A few days afterwards
A: Yes sir.
Q: You dont mean now then, that Mr. Grinell was the first man you told all these details to?
A: I told all the details to Mr. Grinell I explained matters more to Mr. Grinell than I did to any body else.
Q: Will you swear now you ever told Mr. Bonfield that you saw the man scratch the match?
A: I could not be positive that I did tell Mr. Bonfield that.
Q: Now did you give a description to Bonfield of the man that you saw throw the bomb?
A: I did.
Q: What description did you give?
THE COURT: What did you tell Bonfield?
A: I gave a description of a man, pretty good sized man, somewhat full chested, broad face, and had lightish or sandy whiskers, and high cheek bones, and something of a rather hight complexion.
Mr. Foster: Q What kind of a hat did you say he had on on that occasion?
A: I did not say what kind of a hat he had on.
Q: He had a hat on, didn't he?
A: He did, Yes sir.
Q: Did he have a blouse on or coat?
A: I think he had a coat, one of those sack coats on.
Q: A coat something like mine, with pockets in the sides?
A: Something of the style of that, Yes sir.
Q: What was the color of the coat and hat he had on?
A: My impression is that the hat was brown or black, dark colored.
Q: What was the color of the coat?
A: It might have been black or blue.
Q: He had black eyes?
A: I think he had.
Q: And sandy whiskers?
A: Somewhat light Yes sir.
Q: And that you noticed while you were down back in the alley there?
A: Yes, sir he stood right between me and the lamp.
Q: You said he stood between you and the lamp?
A: Yes sir.
Q: The lamp was on what corner of the alley? of Crane's alley and Des Plaines street?
A: Southeast corner.
Q: That is east of Des Plaines, and south of the alley, where the lamp was?
A: Yes sir.
Q: This man was standing between you and the lamp-- which way was he facing at the time?
A: Sometimes his face was towards me, and sometimes his face was sideways.
Q: You, in the alley there, discovered that he had high cheek bones?
A: Yes sir, I did. I seen the man frequently before.
Q: Where did you see him before?
A: I seen him in the meetings and one place and another.
Q: Do you know in what meetings you saw him?
A: I think I saw him at a meeting sometime in March the latter part of March, if I ain't mistaken, and saw him on Market street once.
Q: At the time this bomb was thrown, or what you supposed to be the bomb, the man that threw it turned around facing the police didn't he?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did he anything more than turn around towards the police?
A: Yes, he made one or two steps towards the side walk.
Q: Just one or two steps?
A: He might have made three- - I am not positive.
Q: Now, at the time the bomb was lighted, he was from eight to ten feet down the alley from the mouth of the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And hear to the south side?
A: Yes sir.
Q: He took one or two steps and then threw the bomb?
A: Yes sir
Q: So then, at the time he threw the bomb he was still in the alley, and not on the sidewalk?
A: He was just somewhere about the edge of the sidewalk.
Q: That is about the end of the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Which way did the bomb go?
A: It went in a westerly direction.
Q: Did you see it light?
A: I did not.
Q: Did you see the fuse curling in the air until it did alight, or until it got near the ground?
A: I see it as it went up that way, and started down.
Q: Spies was there at that time?
A: Yes sir.
Q: He had lighted the fuse, this man?
A: Immediately afterwards two parties of them went through the alley.
Q: At the time the bomb was thrown Mr. Spies was there, having lighted the fuse?
A: He was there a few seconds before that time.
Q: A few seconds before what time?
A: Before the bomb was thrown up in the air.
Q: When the bomb was thrown was Mr. Spies there?
A: He was there.
Q: You noticed his high cheek ones didn't you?
A: I did not say anything about Spies' cheek bones. I said the man that threw the bomb.
Q: Did you notice whether Mr. Spies had high cheek bones?
A: I have seen Mr. Spies the last year and a half, and knew him by sight.
Q: You knew him?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Knew him by name?
A: No sir.
Q: You did not know his name?
A: No sir.
Q: Hadn't you heard him speak at public meetings?
A: I heard him speak but never heard his name.
Q: Didn't you hear him called Spies?
A: I seen him frequently, but never knew who he was.
Q: How many times did you hear him speak?
A: I recollect seeing or hearing him speak twice.
Q: You never found out who he was?
A: I never inquired what his name was.
Q: Where was it you heard him speak?
A: I heard him once on Market street.
Q: How long ago?
A: Well, it was last summer sometime, a year ago last spring.
Q: How long did he speak?
A: That I could not say. He was speaking when I went in the crowd. I mixed among the crowd a while, and went away- - I could not say how long he spoke.
Q: You never saw fit to enquire and ascertain who it was spoke?
A: No sir.
Q: Didn't you read in the paper who it was spoke?
A: I saw it in the paper afterwards. I never knew the man by name.
Q: When you saw it in the paper and heard him speak, you knew from hearing him and reading the paper., that it was Spies that spoke.?
A: I knew it was one of the speakers.
Q: Didn't you know it was Spies?
A: I did not.
Q: Didn't you hear the name of August Spies?
A: Yes sir. I heard the name very frequently.
Q: At the time this bomb was thrown you saw Spies was there where it had been lighted, and Mr. Fischer was right there in the crowd?
A: Yes sir.
Q: What next happened that you saw, after the bomb had been thrown?
A: Immediately after the explosion, the firing commenced from somewheres around the wagon, in the range of the sound, and was returned by the police. My attention was entirely taken up by the firing and I did not pay attention to anything else afterwards.
Q: You did not pay attention to Mr. Spies or Mr. Fischer, or to the man who threw the bomb after the firing commenced?
A: I know they immediately went through the alley.
Q: You paid that meuch attention?
A: Yes sir. I saw them go through the alley -- they went past me, went by me.
Q: And went down the alley, all of them?
A: Yes sir.
Q: They did not go out the front of the alley and go north?
A: No sir.
Q: They went back through the alley?
A: Yes sir.
Q: At the time you had this conversation with Bonfield, you described to him, did you, the man that struck the match and lighted the fuse?
A: I did as well as I could
Q: You remember that?
A: Yes.
Q: You remember describing to Mr. Bonfield the man who came from in the direction of the wagon, struck the match and lighted the fuse?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Now then, what do you say about whether you spoke to Mr. Bonfield on that subject or not - - did you?
A: Well, either Mr. Bonfield, or Lieut. Kipley, or Lieut. Shea, or some one in the central station - - I don't remember now.
Q: If it was not Mr. Bonfield, it was somebody?
A: It was one of the officers of the central station.
Q: They were all together?
A: Yes sir.
Q: If it was to Lieut. Kipley, you made the remark, it was within hearing of Superintendent Bonfield wasn't it.
A: Yes.
Q: They were all there together?
A: If the conversation occurred at the time Superintendent Bonfield was there, he heard it.
Q: Did you have more than one conversation over at police headquarters?
A: Yes, I was there twice.
Q: The first time you were there was on the second day after the bomb was exploded.
A: I think it was the second day.
Q: When was the next time?
A: I think it was the next Sunday.
Q: Who was there the first time you went to the station?
A: Lieut. Kipley was there, Lieut. Shea was there, and I think Inspector Bonfield came in.
Q: How did you come to go to that station at that time?
A: I told you I answered his request by note left to my rooms to come down to the central station.
Q: Was your door left unlocked?
A: No sir.
Q: It was left under the door?
A: It was left with the landlady.
Q: Did she tell you it was a policeman that come there?
A: No sir.
Q: Didn't tell you who it was that came?
A: No sir.
Q: That you received in the evening?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That you received, before you had stated to anybody that you saw the bomb thrown?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You don't know how they found out that you had seen the bomb thrown, if you had not told anybody, do you?
A: They found it out from the remark I made in front of the central station on La Salle street I suppose.
Q: That remark was the remark that you stated a while ago, before dinner, that you made to the policeman, and the reporter?
A: Yes, sir. I understood they learned it in that way.
Q: So then Mr. Bonfiled was there, was he, when you went in and you had at a talk with him?
A: I think he came in afterwards after I was there.
Q: Did he come in before you had made your statement?
A: I ain't positive whether he did or not.
Q: Don't you remember who it was that examined you?
A: Well, Lieut. Shea, and Lieut. Kipley and Inspector Bonfield asked me several questions.
Q: And then you told them on the second day, on the 6th, that the man who threw the bomb had high cheek hones, was light complexioned, that he was a man you had often seen, and you described Mr. Schnaubelt to him?
A: As near as I could Yes.
Q: Now, do you know that Mr. Schnaubelt was arrested and was afterwards turned loose?
A: I don't know anything about it.
Q: You don't know when he was arrested how long he was held when he was discharged or how long he remained in the city of Chicago, after this statement was made.
A: I do not sir.
Q: When was this picture first shown to you to see whether you could identify this as the man?
A: At the State's attorneys office.
Q: When?
A: Sometime last week, I think it was.
Q: That was last week, since you have been subpeonaed as a witness?
A: I think it was--- Sometime last week, I think the fore part of last week, I think it was.
Q: Were you here in the city during the time that the coroner's jury was examining into the cause of the death of different police man?
A: I was, sir.
Q: Were you in the city at the time that the grand jury were examining into this case?
A: I was.
Q: You have not been absent from the city at all?
A: Not at all.
Q: The officers knew your name and number?
A: Yes sir.
Q: And they never called on you to go before the grand jury? And before the cororner's jury?
A: They did not sir.
Q: As I remember your testimony, the man that you think was the man whose picture this represents was a man five feet, six inches tall?
A: I did not say so.
Q: What did you say?
A: I said he was a man about five feet eight inches I should judge.
Q: How would his height compare with mine do you suppose?
A: Well, he was if anything, a little taller than you are.
Q: How would his general size compare with mine?
A: He was a larger man than you are.
Q: How much taller would you say he was than I am?
A: He might be an inch, may be not that, not a great deal of difference.
Q: Your judgment would be that he was about five feet eight?
A: I should think somewheres about five fees eight, ten or nine inches.
Q: He could not have been a man over six feet tall, could he?
A: I think not sir.
Q: About what weight man was he?
A: Well, I should say that he was a man, probably would weigh from 170 to 180 pounds some wheres along there.
Q: A man in good flesh for his height?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Not a particularly stout man nor a slim man?
A: He was, I should say, probably he would weight 175 or 180 pounds perhaps.
Q: When did you have the first talk with Mr. Grinell, in regard to what you knew of this case?
A: I think that Mr. Grinell was one of the parties who was at the central station while I was there at one time.
Q: Was that the first time Mr. Grinell was there?
A: I think it was on Sunday that I recollect, the second time I was there.
Q: That Mr. Grinell was there?
A: Yes sir.
Q: It was not about two or three weeks ago, that you first stated to Mr. Grinell about it?
A: The first time that I told Mr. Grinell about that picture, that I seen that picture.
Q: I did not ask about the picture-- I am talking about what you said this forenoon. So as a matter of fact it was not two or three weeks ago that you had the first talk that you ever had with Mr. Grinell, on this subject?
A: The first talk with Mr. Grinell, was in the central station once when I was there.
Q: Mr. Grinell knew of this important testimony at the time of the cororner's investigation of some of these cases, and at the time of sitting of the grand jury?
A: I don't know whether Mr. Grinell knew at that time-- I don't remember the conversation.
Q: THE COURT: Whatever took place between the witness and Grinell you can ask about.
MR. FOSTER: What do you say about that, you did not tell Grinell then, on that Sunday?
A: I think I told him that could identify the person that threw the bomb, if I seen him.
Q: That was about all you told him?
A: I think that was all substantially that told him.
Q: At the time you had the conversation with Mr. Grinell, you did not tell him that you saw one man strike a match and light a fuse, and another man throw it?
A: I think I did.
Q: The first time you ever talked with Mr. Grinell?
A: It is my impression I did the first time.
Q: I thought you said just now that about what you told him was that you thought you could recognize the man that threw the bomb?
Objected to.
Q: What did you tell Mr. Grinell?
A: I cannot remember.
THE COURT: On what occasion?
Mr. FOSTER: The only occasion he ever talked with him.
Q: The first time you ever talked with him?
A: I don't remember that Mr. Grinell said half a dozen words to me-- I don't remember the conversation-- he came in the central station that day.
Q: Let us take it up by piece meal. Did you talk with Mr. Grinell on Sunday at the police station?
A: I think I did, Yes sir.
Q: Now, did you go to the station first, or did Mr. Grinell go there?
A: I don't know whether he was there before I got there or not.
Q: You went in there?
A: I went in there.
Q: Who was there when you went in?
A: Lieut. Shea and Lieut Kipley, and I think James Bonfield was in there too.
Q: On Sunday?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Mr. Grinell was there or came?
A: He came in there Yes sir.
Q: Before you had any conversation Mr. Grinell came in, didn't he?
A: I am not positive.
Q: How long were you there?
A: Oh, I was there ten or fifteen minutes perhaps.
Q: Who was it questioned you while you was there?
A: I think that Lieut Shea done some of the principal talking, if I remember right.
Q: Was it in Mr. Grinells hearing?
A: Part of it.
Q: Tell us the conversation that took place there?
A: I could not repeat the conversation that took place there.
Q: Tell us the whole substance of the conversation that took place there,.
A: Well the substance of the conversation that took place there, was in regard to the identification of parties, and some photographs that were shown me then.
Q: Did you see this picture (indicating Schnaubelts photograph)"?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you recognize it"
A: Not then.
Q: You did not see this picture at that time?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you see Mr. Spies picture?
A: No sir.
Q: Did you see Mr. Fischer?s picture?
A: No sir.
Q: Now, did you see Mr. Fischer that day?
A: I did.
Q: Did you see Mr. Spies that day?
A: No sir.
Q: But Mr. Fischer there was brought out wasn't he?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You looked him over?
A: I did.
Q: Did you say anything about his being the man that struck the match?
A: No sir.
Q: Now - did you know Mr. Fischer before that time?
A: I knew him by sight.
Q: And as soon as they brought Mr. Fischer into the room you. of course, identified him as being one of the men who composed this group in the alley, didn't you?
A: I did.
Q: You stated so to Mr. Grinell?
A: I did.
Q: And to these other officers?
A: I think I have.
Q: What else was said there except as to whether Fischer was one of the men?
A: Well, I was shown photographs of different parties, and asked if I could identify any of them
Q: You could not?
A: I identified one or two as parties that I had seen at the meeting.
Q: You did not identify any of them as being the man who threw the bomb as you expressed it?
A: No sir.
Q: What else was said during that interview when Mr. Grinell was present?
A: Well, I don't remember of anything further that was said that I can recollect to my memory now.
Q: You had at previous conversations talked about the man that struck the match and lighted the fuse, and the man that threw the bomb, you previously done that on Thursday?
A: I had said that I believed that I could recognize the man If i could see him again.
Q: You said more that that -- you said you saw the man strike the match?
A: I did.
Q: And light the fuse -- that was on Thursday?
A: I did.
Q: And having stated that, on Sunday the matter was not enquired of?
A: I don't know but what it was.
Q: You don't remember when it was?
A: I cannot say positively. I think though it was.
Q: You think it was enquired of?
A: It might have been.
Q: You don't say now do you, that Mr. Grinell is the first man that you ever told in the world, and the only man that you ever told that you saw a man light the match, and light the fuse, and another one that threw the bomb?
Objected to.
A: Mr Grinell was one of the parties to the conversation in the central station.
Q: I don't ask anything about that. Answer the question I ask you.
THE COURT: The question is whether Mr. Grinell is the first man to whom you told all those particulars.
A: He is one of the first. I don't know whether I said anything to the detectives before I spoke to Mr. Grinell or not, I could not be positive.
Q: Do you now say that Mr. Grinell is the onyl man that you told about the striking of the match and the lighting of the fuse, or do you say that you have told others?
A: I told other detectives at the central station.
Q: Now, you say you have told more than Mr. Grinell in regard to this matter?
A: Well---
Q: It is all right now?
A: Yes it is all right.
Q: Did you have the same clothes on Thursday and on Sunday when you visited the station, that you have on now?
A: No sir.
Q: You had working clothes on then?
A: I had on a sack coat down at the station that day. I believe I had on the same pants I have on now and the same shoes I don't know whether I had the same socks on or not.
Q: We will waive the socks. Did you have these clothes, did you own them at the time, the coat and vest you now have on?
A: I did.
Q: You have not received any money from any officers for any purpose, or have you for loss of time?
A: No sir not for loss of time.
Q: For anything?
A: I have received some money to get my dinner when I have been here.
Q: How many times have you received money?
A: Two or three times.
Q: Didn't you have any money of your own?
A: Sometimes I did not.
Q: You mean you did not have any anywhere?
A: I did not have any with me.
Q: Who would supply you when you wanted something to get lunch--- would you apply to Bonfield or Grinell?
A: Bonfield would give me change, ten or fifteen cents.
Q: Did he limit you to ten or fifteen cents?
A: No sir, sometimes a quarter.
Q: Which Bonfield was it that has been lunching you?
A: James Bonfield.
Q: Did he go to dinner with you?
A: No sir
Q: You would go to take dinner somewheres else than with him?
A: I don't know whether he had any or not -- I could not say.
Q: You did not go to dinner with him?
A: No sir.
Q: You did not go to dinner with Mr. Grinell did you?
A: I did not.
Q: You say you have been in attendance here about two weeks?
A: I said I believed this was the second week, I believe I said.
Q: How many times have they fed you during that time?
A: I believe I have got some change of Mr. Bonfield two or three times perhaps four.
Q: Did you ever receive any change for any other purpose that to get something to eat and drink?
A: No sir.
Q: That has been within the last two weeks, I suppose?
A: Yes sir.
Q: In this conversation were you told that you were wanted as a witness before the grand jury, the conversation that you had at the central station either Thursday or Sunday?
A: No sir.
Q: Nothing said about that?
A: No sir.
Q: After that Sunday you never had a talk with any of them have you about the case?
A: Nobody except Mr. Grinell.
Q: Have not talked with Bonfield either of them, nor any of the officers anybody but Grinell?
A: No sir.
Q: How many times have you talked with Mr. Grinell since that time?
A: I think I saw Mr. Grinell once before this trial commenced.
Q: How long ago was that?
A: I think it must be, perhaps three weeks.
Q: Where was it you saw him?
A: May be over at his office. In fact I recall that I think it was before--- my impression is that it is was before the court convened to impanel jurors.
Q: Then it was about five or six weeks ago?
A: It must have been that. It was before the court convened at all.
Q: You had a conversxtion with Mr. Grinell in regard to the facts of this case at the time?
A: I had some conversation with him.
Q: How did you come to go there?
A: He sent for me.
Q: He came for you?
A: Came in shape of a letter.
Q: You received a letter from Grinell to call at his office.
A: I did.
Q: Did you then go through the narration of the striking of the match on that occasion?
A: I think I did.
Q: Was your statement written down by anybody?
A: No sir not that I know of.
Q: Did you ever sign any statement?
A: I did not sir.
Q: At that time Mr. Grinell showed you the picture? didn't he?
A: I think he did yes.
Q: Don't you know he did, and that is what he sent for you for?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Is that the picture that he showed you?
A: It is either that one or one just like it.
Q: Didn't he tell you that that was a picture of Schnaubelt didn't you hear the word Schnaubelt?
A: I don't remember hearing the name.
Q: You never heard the name before?
A: I might have heard it but I don't recollect hearing it.
Q: You don't remember at any time during all these various conversations of hearing one name of Schnaubelt?
A: I think the name was mentioned there, but it is a name I am not familiar with, and I probably have forgotten it.
Q: What is that answer?
A: I recall that answer, and I tthink the name of Schnaubelt was emntioned there, but is was a name I never heard before, and have forgotten it.
Q: Who was present with Mr. Grinell and you in that conversation, anybody?
A: I think not, sir--- other people around in the office.
Q: At the time you and Grinell had the talk in the office, you didn't know Schnaubelt by name?
A: No sir.
Q: You did not mention the name of Schnaubelt?
A: I did not
Q: Then Mr. Grinell must have mentioned the name of Schnaubelt?
A: I think he did.
Q: He told you then this was a picture of Schnaubelt?
A: He might have done so.
Q: Don't you know he did tell you so?
A: I suppose he did.
Q: Don't you know you had heard the name of Schnaubelt before?
A: I dont, I don't recollect it.
Q: At the time you were at the station on Thursday, two days after, and you described the man with light complexion and blue eyes, and short whiskers, and his height, and his high cheek bones, didn't you heard the name of Schnaubelt then?
A: I don't recollect hearing it.
Q: How was it on Sunday, did you hear the name of Schnaubelt then?
A: Not to my recollection.
Q: Now you understand that the man that threw the bomb, that you saw throw the bomb was Rudolph Schnaublet, and this is his picture?
A: That is what they say that man's name is.
Q: That is your understanding of it now?
A: Yes sir.
Q: If I remember correctly, you stated before dinner, that the first time you ever saw this picture was about two weeks ago--- is that true?
A: Well, I will qualify that by saying that I had forgotten about that interview that I had with Mr. Grinell in his office---- I had forgotten it at that time.
Q: So then you had more that that interview in his office, have you.?
A: That one.
Q: At the time you saw him six weeks ago, and he says, "there is a picture of Rudolph Schnaubelt", and you identified it as being the man that threw the bomb, you had conversations with him since then, have you?
A: Once since that.
Q: Where?
A: In his office.
Q: When?
A: Well, it is, I think since this trial commenced, since the jury was impaneled I think.
Q: You saw the picture then again didn't you?
A: I did.
Q: What was said at that time at that interview?
A: Well, he showed me the picture, and asked me if I could be sure that that was the picture of the man I saw throw the bomb up in the Haymarket -- something to that effect.
Q: You told him you were sure of it?
A: I did.
Q: Now, in the mean time you had been up here when we were getting a jury once or twice?
A: No sir.
Q: Haven't you seen Mr. Spies to know who he was?
A: I did not.
Q: You said nothing to him about Spies in this conversation?
A: I never knew Mr. Spies to know who Mr. Spies was until sometime last week, by name.
Q: At the time that you were at Mr Grinell?s office two weeks ago, about two weeks ago, you told that this was the man, this was the picture of the man that threw the bomb?
A: Yes, I recollect saying sometime ago, that interview, I had forgotten about that, that I recoginized that as being the man that threw the bomb, and then he showed it to me again, when I was there, and I still recollect as saying that that is the man that threw the bomb.
Q: You told him two weeks ago in this conversation that you saw the man strike the match and light the fuse to the bomb-- that man there. (Pointing to Spies.)
A: I did.
Q: You told him that two weeks ago?
A: Yes.
Q: When you had a talk with him six weeks ago was the first time you ever saw this picture -- this interview you had forgotten?
A: Yes, sir I think it was.
Q: As soon as he showed you this picture and said, "That is Rudolph Schnaubelt" you said, "That is the man that threw the bomb"?
A: He did not say that is Rudolph Schnaubelt. He showed me that picture or some other pictures. I identified that picture.
Q: You at once said., "this was the man that threw the bomb?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You told him you saw the match struck and the fuse lighted before the bomb was thrown?
A: I did.
Q: That you told Grinell six weeks ago.
A: I might have told him then.
Q: Then he sent for you two weeks ago to have you tell him the same thing over?
A: He showed me the picture when I was in the office.
Q: When you saw it six weeks ago, did you have any doubt this was the man?
A: No more than I have now.
Q: What did you tell Mr. Grinell, or what did he ask you two weeks ago, that he did not ask you, and that you did not tell him six weeks ago?
A: He did not ask me anything.
Q: It was just a rehersal?
A: Yes sir.
Q: So then you had four conversations. Once on Thursday after the Haymarket meeting?
A: Once.
Q: On Sunday after the Haymarket meeting, once six weeks ago and once two weeks ago -- that is right?
A: I think so.
Q: That is the only conversations you have had in which you have told of the striking of the match and the lighting of the fuse, is that so?
A: I think that is about the times I have said anything about it.
Q: To anybody?
A: I have never told anybody about it except the officers.
Q: Now, you say that you never have, at any timy, told any body that you saw the fuse lighted except the officers you mentioned?
A: That is right,. I don't recollect ever saying it to anybody
Q: Do you think you wold remember it if you had ever told it to anybody?
A: I think I would.
Q: So then, Bonfield the Superintendent, and Bonfield the inspector, Mr. Grinell. and Lieut. Shea and Kipley, they are the onyl ones that you ever told that you saw the match struck and saw the fuse lighted, and saw the bomb thrown -- is that so?
A: Oh, I told other people that I could identify the man that threw it if I should ever see him.
Q: Did you tell anybody just as I asked you, that you saw the match struck, saw the fuse lighted, saw the bomb thrown, except the men that I have mentioned?
A: Not that I recollect of.
Q: If you had do you thnik you would recollect it?
A: I think I would.
Q: Do you at present board with this lady, and take your meals at her table.
A: I do, yes sir.
Q: You are not batching it now?
A: No sir.
Q: You are not washing your own dishes?
A: No sir.
Q: You eat with the family, I suppose about every twice or three times a day. don't you?
A: Yes.
Q: Twice always and sometimes three times?
A: Yes.
Q: Who compose the family?
A: Mr. and Mrs. Roe and their daughter.
Q: How old is the daughter?
A: I believe she is about thirteen y ars old.
Q: Does Mr. and Mrs. Roe eat at the table at the same time you do?
A: Yes sir.
Q: You eat with them twice a day, and have almost ever since the 4th of May?
A: Yes sir.
Q: That is correct?
A: No sir, not since the 4th of May.
Q: Soon after the 4th of May-- how long have you so boarded in the family and eaten with them?
A: About six weeks., I think.
Q: This matter of the Haymarket has been a topic of general conversation has it not in the family?
A: Not very often mentioned.
Q: You knew you were going to be a witness?
A: I expected to be, Yes sir.
Q: They knew you were going to be a witness?
A: I don't know.
Q: You told them so?
A: I don't know that I ever did, not lately.
Q: Within the last two weeks did not they know you were dancing attendance here?
A: Yes.
Q: Since then it has been a topic of pretty general conversation in the famly?
A: Very seldom mentioned.
Q: You did not go home and tell about what witnesses testified to?
A: I did not.
Q: Mr. Roe is a friend of yours?
A: He is.
Q: You used to walk together and visit together?
A: Frequently.
Q: You used to call in the evening at his house before you boarded there?
A: sometimes.
Q: As a matter of fact you don't go to your room and spend your evenings in your room--- you stay with the family?
A: Generally.
Q: During all the time you have been with the Roes, sitting at the table, and spending the evenings with your family you never told Mr. or Mrs. Roe, or the daughter, that you saw the act of lighting that bomb accomplished?
A: I never did sir.
Q: Now, is there any man that you know of upon earth that you ever told that to, of all you know and associated with except the officers you have spoken of?
A: Not that I recollect.
Q: Had you any object in concealing what you knew about this
A: I don't know as I am obliged to tell everything I know to ever body that I meet with.
Q: I don't know that you are. It would take some of us however a very short time to do so. There is no person you did tell it to?
A: Not that I could recollet of.
Q: You know of no reason why you did not tell it?
A: I said to people I thought I could identify the person.
Q: I know but it stopped right there. You did not say you saw the bomb thrown, and you did not say you saw the fuse lighted or the match struck?
A: I don't think I did.
Q: Did anybody tell you to keep your mouth shut in regard to what you knew?
A: No sir. I have ordinary sense.
Q: We all think we have. So then you were not keeping your mouth shut by reason of any suggestion from Mr. Grinell or Mr. Bonfield or any officer?
A: The gentlemen never made any suggestion to me at all, what I should I say.
Q: Then you were free and independent to tell Mr. Roe or any friend or acquaintance you had, all about it over and over again, except as I suppose, as you said before dinner, that it was none of their business?
A: Yes, exactly.
Q: The reason you did not tell the painter of what you saw when you were talking the next morning after this occurrence and was talking about the blood that had flowed, and the men that had died, and the others crippled-- the reason that you did not tell him what caused the disaster there, was simply and only because it was none of his business?
A: Because I was not obliged to tell everything that I knew.
Q: And it was none of his business?
A: He had means of finding it out if he wanted to know.
Q: But it was none of his business?
A: He might make it his business if he was a mind to.
Q: How old are you?
A: Forty-five.
Q: What is your height?
A: Six foot three.
Q: You could see right over the heads of these fellows.
A: Some crowds I can.
Q: The man who threw this bomb, you could see right over his head?
A: Yes, I think I could pretty nearly.
Q: You say he had what kind of hat.
A: I said he had on a brown or black hat.
Q: One of these stiff hats?
A: It might have been stiff or might have been another one.
Q: Is that the kind of hat he had, something like that (showing witness hat)?
A: I don't know. I hardly think it was as high a hat as that.
Q: It was a hard hat?
A: No I did not say so.
Q: Didn't you say it was a stiff hat?
A: I said it might have been, and might have been soft felt hat.
Q: You did not say anything about a stiff hat?
A: I said it might have been a stiff hat or might have not.
Q: You don't know whether it was that kind of a hat, or that kind of a hat? (showing witness hats)
A: I could not say positively.
Q: Or might it not have been this kind of hat?
A: No sir it was not.
Q: You are sure it was not a light hat?
A: It was not a straw hat.
Q: Was it a light hat in color?
A: I think not.
Q: Your idea of Mr. Schnaubelt's appearance, or the man whose picture is represented here, that man at the time he threw the bomb, was that he had dark colored clothes on and a dark colored hat?
A: I think his clothes--- I could not say that they were black. They were dark colored, brown or balck, some kind of shade of dark.
Q: Something like the clothes you have on, might have been brown or might have been black.
A: It might have been brown--- some of his clothes mght have been black.
Q: One thing you do know, that they are not light clothes?
A: No sir.
Q: Millers clothes?
A: No sir, I think not.
Q: Nothing in the nature of clothes worn by a miller?
A: No sir.
Q: Light gray?
A: No sir.
Q: Nothing of that kind?
A: No sir.
Q: Of that you are sure?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Are you accustomed to the use of morphine or chloral?
A: No sir.
Q: Or opium?
A: No sir.
Q: Nothing of that kind?
A: No sir.
Q: Never had any experience with those things?
A: No sir.
Q: Do you know Fanny Hubbell?
A: I do unfortunately.
Q: You are acquainted with the gentle Fanny?
A: I have seen her.
Q: How long have you known her?
A: Something over two years.
Q: You bought some property of her. did't you?
THE COURT: I don't see the materiality of that.
Mr. FOSETR: I want to show what business this man has been engaged in.
THE COURT: Save the point upon it.
Mr. FOSTER: You say you know this woman?
A: Yes.
Q: What business was she engaged in at the time you knew her?
Objection to; objection sustained; exception by defendants.
Mr. FOSTER: I want to show that this gentleman was her successor, and then I want to show the character of the business that was being conducted.
Q: At the time that you were at the station, at the central station, on Thursday and Sunday, and gave an account of the man that lit the match, did they bring out Mr. Spies, this man here, for you to identify?
A: No sir.
Q: You gave a description of the man that lit the match?
A: Something of a general description of him.
Q: They did not bring him out.
A: No sir.
Q: You gave a description of the man that was in the crowd, and they went and brought out Fischer?
A: There were several persons brought out.
Q: Fischer was brought out?
A. Yes, sir.
Q: Mr. Spies was not brought out.
A. I did not see him.
Q: In that conversation you told him it was a man you had often seen, and would know him if you seen him?
A: No sir.
Q: And you heard make speeches at these meetings"
A: I heard him speak.
Q: Did they show you any picture?
A: Not of Mr. Spies, that I recollect of.
Q: Did they ask you anything about where you had seen him or where you had heard him speak?
A: I don't think they did.
Q: In this conversation when you described the man that struck the match, did you tell Mr." Grinell or any of the officers that that man was a man that had been on the wagon, and who came from the wagon before the match was struck?
A: I told them that the man came from the wagon.
Q: Did you tell them that you had seen him on the wagon?
A: I did not-- I don't think I did.
Q: They did not go and bring Spies out for you to look at to see whether he was the man or not?
A: No sir.
Q: How was Spies dressed the night that the match was struck
A: He had on some kind of dark clothes, brown like.
Q: What kind of hat?
A: I think he had on a soft hat like something in the style of that that lays there.
Q: This soft hat?
A: I think so.
Q: It was black was it?
A: It was black or brown.
Q: Was it a stiff rim hat or a limber rim?
A: My impression is it was limber rim.
Q: You noticed his complexion was light and blue eyes?
A: I know Mr. Spies by sight for some time, knew the man's face.
Q: Did you or not at this interview with the officers, describe Mr. Spies, and tell them that you had known him for sometime, tell them that you heard him speak, and that he was the man that struck the match?
A: I described him, Yes.
Q: You described him as the man you knew by sight?
A: Knew him by sight, but did not know his name.
Q: You heard him speak at these meetings?
A: I heard him speaking- - he was speaking in German. I did not understand what he said.
Q: Did you tell these officers that you heard him speak at these meetings?
A: I think I did, some of them.
Q: Now, after these descriptions that you gave, Mr Fischer was the only defendants that was brought out for you to look at?
A: There were several bought out.
Q: There was one of these defendants brought out wasn't there
A: I think he is the only one of these defendants I seen there.
Q: When did you first tell Mr. Grinell that this is the man that struck the match?
A: When I saw him sitting here in court.
Q: When
A: One day last week.
Q: So then last week, although you have been talking over this matter with Grinell ever since the second day after the Haymarket meeting, last week is the first time that you ever told Mr. Grinell, that this is the man that struck the match?
A: That is the first time I recognized, the first time I ever seen him since the night of the Haymarket, right here in the court room.
Q: When was it you told him that?
A: Some day last week.
Q: Where was it?
A: Down in his office that I told him.
Q: Had you been up here in court?
A: I had.
Q: What day was it?
A: I don't recollect what day it was.
Q: But some day last week?
A: I think it was.
Q: It was not two weeks ago, before they commenced examining witnesses here?
A: Yes, it was during the examination of witnesses.
Q: There is an other interview with Mr. Grinell you have not told up about before?
Objected to.
Q: You had then a fifth interview did you?
A: I told you once before that I saw him here after the court was in session here.
Q: Have you been in the habit of making his office your headquarters?
A: No sir, I told you once before that he sent me a letter.
Q: Within the lasw two weeks since you attended here every day, during the time you were here?
A: You little sap- head you I told you once it was when the court was in session that he sent me another note to come down to the office.
Q: That is all right-- be sure and get the sap-head into the record.
A: That is important.
Q: You cannot get me mad. You have been in his office more than three or four times?
A: I have been into his officer several times since the trial commenced.
Q: Since the trial commenced, and since you have been subpoenaed as a witness you have told him at different times of seeing the man strike the match and light the fuse and seeing the bomb thrown?
A: Since the day that I came into the court room, I don't think Mr. Grinell mentioned that to my recollection, not mentioned the subxect to me but once.
Q: Did you go to him and tell him this was the man, or did he have you come into court, and have you point him out?
A: I said the day when I came up here and identified him, that was the day I told him in the office that was the man.
Q: Did you come up here for the purpose of identifying him?
A: I believe I did.
Q: Who did you come up with?
A: I came up by my self.
Q: Was any officers with you?
A: No sir.
Q: Who told you that was Spies?
A: I forgot whether it was Mr. Grinell or Mr. Furthman -- I don't know which one it was.
Q: Did you point out and say "that is the man".
A: I told him that man sitting furthest north was the man.
Q: The man sitting furthest north?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Then they told you that was Spies?
A: Yes.
Q: That is the first time you knew it was Spies?
A: The first time.
Q: Tell us how Mr. Fischer was dressed the night he was in the alley?
Q: I think he had on a blue sack coat, if I recollect right.
Q: A blue sack coat?
A: I think it was kind of bluish color.
Q: Pockets on the sides?
A: I did not take any particular notice of his dress-- I could not say positively about his dress.
Q: Did you say he had a black necktie?
A: I did not say anything about a black necktie.
Q: Did he have a black necktie on?
A: I think he did.
Q: Don't you remember that the man Schnaubelt had no necktie on at all?
A: If he had, it was a very light one.
Q: And Mr. Spies did not have any necktie either, did he?
A: I think not. I think Mr. Spies had a turned down collar that night and not any necktie.
Q: As a matter of fact don't you remember that Mr. Spies did not have any vest on on that occasion?
A: I could not say.
Q: But he had a turned down collar and no necktie?
A: I don't know whether he had or not. He might have had a necktie on.
Q: Mr. Fischer had a dark colored necktie?
A: I think he did.
Q: Mr. Schnaubelt no necktie at all?
A: My impression is he did not have any, but he might have had.
Q: As a matter of fact Mr. Schnaubelt did not have any collar on, did he?
A: I think he did.
Q: Was it a stand up collar or turn down collar.
A: I should say it was my opinion that he had on a flannel shirt with a collar on it, turned down.
Q: A flannel shirt?
A: Yes, but I am not positive.
Q: You are not sure of complexion?
A: No sir, I would not be sure, but it seems to be my impression of how he was dressed that night.
Q: With a collar turned down?
A: A collar turned down.
Q: What kind of tie was it he had around his neck?
A: If he had any I think it was a light one, if he had any at all.-- I don't know that he had.
Q: Was his coat buttoned up or opened?
A: I think that the upper buttons of his coat were buttoned.
Q: The upper button of Mr. Schnaubelt's coat was buttoned?
A: Yes.
Q: How was Mr. Spies coat?
A: I think that he had one or two buttons of his coat buttoned up when he came from towards the wagon from down into the alley.
Q: One or two buttoned from the top or bottom?
A: From the top.
Q: Something like that?
A: Yes sir.
Q: (Illustrating).
A: Yes sir.
Q: Did Mr. Spies wear his coat buttoned high up near the throat, or had he a kind of lapel, more like mine is?
A: I could not say.
Q: How was it with Mr. Schnaubelt's coat-- was it a sack coat with pockets on the sides?
A: I think it was.
Q: Fischer's coat was the same kind?
A: I think it was a sack coat he had on.
Q: How was Mr. Fischer's coat as to being buttoned or opened?
A: I think his coat was opened.
Q: Schnaubelt had one button buttoned, and Mr. Spies had two buttons buttoned?
A: He might have had.
Q: Mr. Fischer had none buttoned. Mr. Schnaubelt had a light necktie if any, Mr. Spies had none at all; and Mr. Fischer a dark colored one, according to your best judgment?
A: According to my recollection, Yes sir.
Q: And this you saw yourself in a few seconds while you were in Crane's alley, while the meeting was being held, about ten o'clock?
A: While I was standing around there.
Q: You came two weeks ago in response to a letter from Mr. Grinell?
A: Yes, sir, something about two weeks ---I don't know the exact time.
Q: On that occasion you did not come up in the court room?
A: Yes, that is the time I came up in the court room.
Q: That was the time you came up into the court room?
A: Yes sir.
Q: I thought you said it was last week you came up into the court room?
A: About two weeks ago, near two weeks ago-- I could not tell the exact time. I don't recollect.
Q: It was not then last week you came up and saw Mr. Spies?
A: I could not be positive. My impression is it was the fore part of last week.
Q: That was in respone to the letter?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Then it was that the photograph was shown you again the second time by Mr. Grinell?
A: Yes sir.
MR. GRINELL: Q You were asked by me to come into court and see if you had ever seen any of the defendants before?
Objected to; objection overruled; exception by defendants?
A: Yes sir.
Q: Where were you born?
A: Virginia.
Mr. FOSTER: Old Virginia?
A: Yes.