July 16th, 86, 2 P. M.
GODFRIED WALLER, produced as a witness on behalf of the People, after having been dulynsworn, testified as follows: (Testifying through sworn interpreter through German into the English language)
Direct Examination by MR. INGHAM.
Q What is your name?
A Godfried Waller.
Q What is your business?
A Cabinet maket.
Q How long have you been engaged in that business?
A Two years.
Q How long have you lived in Chicago?
A Two years.
Q Where were you born?
A Switzerland.
Q You have lived in this country how long?
A Three years.
Q Were you or have you been a member of any Socialistic organization in this city?
A Yes.
Q What organization?
A a society called the "Lehr and Wehr Verein", a society for exercise in arms and instruction; it means a society to receive instructions in military discipline and in arms.
Q What group were you a member of?
A The second company.
Q Are you a member of that company now or of that organization now? No, not for the last four months.
Q What did that organization do?
A We have drilled---- exercised in arms and so forth.
Q You say you ceased to be a member of that orgainzation about four months ago?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember the time when the bomb was thrown?
A Yes.
Q What day was that?
A The 4th of May.
Q In the daytime or the night time?
A In the evening.
Q Where were you the night of the day before the throwing of the bomb?
A That night I was at home.
Q Where were you on the evening of the third of May?
A In Grief's Hall, on West Lake Street.
Q Where is Grief's Hall?
A 54 West Lake Street.
Q That is in the City of Chicago?
A Yes.
Q What time did you get to that hall?
A At eight o'clock.
Q Had you been working that day---Monday?
A No.
Q How did you come to go to that hall?
A On account of an advertisement in the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q Where did you see the advertisement in the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A On Milwaukee Avenue, in ThaliA Hall.
Q Have you the paper now in which you saw that advertisement?
A No.
Q Do you know what became of it?
A No.
Q Look at the paper which I now show you, marked "People's Exhibit 3", and see if that is a copy of the paper in which you saw the advertisement?
A Yes.
Q Now, what was the advertisment which you saw?
A The letter "Y"-- "Come Monday night."
Q Where is it?
A There (indicating).
Q Is it the place that you now designate with your finger?
A Yes.
(Paper offered in evidence. No objection on the part of the defendants. Same hereto attached marked "People's Ex. 7", contained in Vol. of "Exhibits" hereto attached.)
Q What is the word just before the words which you have read?
A "Briefkasten"--which means "Letter Box".
Q What did that mean-- the letter "Y" and so forth?
Objected to.
Q Did this expression-- the letter "Y"--followed by the words "Come Monday night," have any meaning among the society to which you belonged?
A It was nothing but a sign that our meeting was to take place there.
Q Whose meeting?
A Of the armed section.
Q Should meet where?
A It always meant Grief's Hall.
Q Had you been there at other meetings pursuant to a notice similar to this?
A Once, yes.
Q Was there any other reason for your going to Grief's Hall that night?
A No.
Q Had you seen any document before you went there--- any printed document?
A No.
Q Had you talked with anybody before going there?
A Yes.
Q About the purpose of the meeting?
A Yes.
Q Had you talked with any of the defendants now on trial about that?
A Yes, shortly before the meeting.
Q Before you went to Grief's Saloon had you talked with any of the defendants?
A Yes.
Q With whom had you talked before going to the saloon about the purposes of the meeting?
A Not about the purposes of the meeting. I simply talked with some of the defendants.
Q What time did you get to Grief's Hall?
A About half past eight.
Q Where did you go first?
A To Engle's.
Q Was that half past eight in the evening or in the morning?
A In the evening.
Q Where did you first go after getting to Grief's place?
A To Mr. Engle's.
Q Did you spend any time in the saloon before going to the hall?
A No.
Q What floor of the building is the saloon on?
A It is on the first floor.
Q Did you attend a meeting at Grief's place that night?
A Yes.
Q Where was that meeting held?
A In the basement.
Q At that same number?
A Yes.
Q Is that basement under the front of the rear portion of the building?
A It extends throughout the length of the building.
Q Look at the plat which I now show you (indicating). Is that a plat of the basement?
A Yes, that is it.
Q How high is the ceiling of the basement above the floor?
A AAbout seven or eight feet.
Q What time was that meeting called to order?
A Half past eight.
Q Who called it to order?
A I did.
Q Who was present at that meeting that you now can remember of?
A That I cannot tell--all of them; about sevety or eighty men.
Q Who was the chairman of the meeting?
A I was.
Q Who nominated you for chairman?
A I could not say for certain, but I think several called out "Waller"; I think August Clermont.
Q Were there any guards stationed to prvent parties from entering the hall who were not entitled to enter?
Objected to as leading.
Q Were any precautions taken about who should come into the meeting?
A That I don't know.
Q Point out the place in the hall where you as chairman sat?
A Here (indicating on plat.)
Q Where did the audience sit?
A Here (indicating the placed marked "Bench").
Q Was there anyone here (indicating on the back stairway)?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was there (indicating)
A I could not say for certain; I think it was Breitenfeld.
Q Who was Breitenfeld?
A He is the commander of our Lehr and Wehr Society.
Q Were any of the defendants present at that meeting?
A Yes.
Q Who that you remember of?
A Mr Engle amd Mr. Fischer.
Q Do you remember as to any of the others?
A Yes, several.
Q I mean any of the other defendants?
A No.
Q What was said after the meeting was called to order?
MR. BLACK: In behalf of the six defendants other than Mr. Engle and Mr. Fischer, we desire to interpose an objection as to what occurred at that meeting.
Objection overruled; to which ruling of the Court the defendants referred to, by their counsel, then and there duly excepted.
MR. BLACK: I do not desire to repeat the objection every time, but it is understood to apply to all that took place at that meeting.
THE COURT: The objection and exception may be preserved for the other defendants--other than Engle and Fischer.
THE WITNESS: Several posters about revenge were distributed:
(Question Read) First it was talked about that at McCormick's six men had been killed; then we had a discussion as to what should be done in the next few days.
Q Who was it that made the statement that six men had been killed at McCormick's?
A. -Those were the posters.
Q Have you any of those circulars, or do you know what became of the circulars which you read?
A. -No.
Q Look at the circular which I now show you, headed "Revenge", and say whether or not that is a copy of the one which you read?
A. Yes.
Q Do you know who brought that circular to the meeting?
A. No.
Q Do you know who distributed it at the meeting?
A. -No.
Q After the discussion began as to what should be done what was said?
A. -Mr. Engle has found a resolution of a prior meeting as to what should be done.
Q What did Engle say?
A. -Mr. Engle said that if, through the fault of the strikers, there should be an encounter with the police, that we should aid the men against them.
Mr. ZEiseler.- I do not think the translation is exactly correct. I think it should be "If on account of the eight-hour strike now going on there should be a difficulty between the police and the workmen then we should meet at certain meeting places to come to the rescue of those attacked by the police."
Mr. Ingham We are willing to adopt your translation.
Q Go on?
A -Then he told us that the Northwest Side Group had resolved as to that, that if on account of the workingmen-the strikers-something would happen to the police that we should gather at certain corners or meetingplaces. Then the word "Ruhe"-translated as "Quiet" or "rest", -if that was ordered to be published; if that was to appear it was to be the time for us to meet.
Q Was anything said about where the word "Ruhe" should be published?
A Yes.
Q Where was it to be published?
A --In the Arbeiter Zeitung--- in the "Letter Box."
Q Q What else, if anything, did Engle say? Give what was said there just as fully as you can.
A If there were tumults in the city then we should meet at Wicker Park; if that should appear in the paper-- the word "Ruhe"--then the Northwest Side Group and the Lehr and Wehr Verein of the Northwest side should assemble in Wicker Park armed. Then a committee was appointed to watch the movement in the city. They should observe the movement and if something happened they should report, and if a riot should occur we should first storm the police station and should cut the telegraph wires.
Q Who should cut the telegraph wires?
A That was not provided for, and then after we had stormed the police station we should shoot down everything that should come out, and by that we thought to gain accessions from the workingmen, and then if that police station was stormed we should do the same in regard to the second, and whatever would come in our way we should strike down, and that is about all.
Q What police station was referred to?
A First that on North Avenue.
Q What next?
A About the second station there was nothing said-- just as it happened.
Q Was anything said about dynamite or bombs?
A Yes.
Q What?
A It would be the easiest mode--- throwing a bomb in the station.
Q Who said that?
A Mr Engle.
Q Whose plan was it to storm this Northside Station?
Objected to.
THE COURT: Who said anything about that and what did he say, is the proper question?
Mr. INGHAM: (Q): Did anybody say anything about where this plan was originated?
A No.
Q Was anything said by anyone about calling a meeting of workingmen?
A That I don't know.
Q Was anyting said at the meeting about calling a meeting of the workingmen?
A Yes.
Q What was that? State fully.
A There should be a meeting of workingmen the next day; the meeting was Monday that would be Tuesday.
Q Who said that?
A I said that: and that was rejected--- the meeting to be held in the morning, and the meeting was called for the evening.
Q Who said anything about calling a meeting for the evening?
A Mr. Fischer.
Q Tell what Mr Fischer said? give it all?
A I had proposed Market Square and then Fischer said this was a mouse trap; it should be on the Haymarket, because in the evening there would be more workingment there, because people were at work late, and then it was resolved that the meeting should be at eight o'clock in the evening.
Q Where?
A At the Haymarket.
Q What else was said?
A That is about all.
Q Was anything said about what should take place at that meeting --- at the Haymarket meeting?
A Yes.
Q What?
A To cheer up the workingmen so that if something should happen in the next day they should be prepared.
Q Prepared for what?
A If a conflict should happen.
Q Was anything said at that meeting as to how the meeting should be called?
A Yes.
Q What was said and by whom?
A It should be announced through a hand bill.
Q Who said that?
A That I don't know.
Q Was anything said of how the hand bill should be printed or where it should be printed?
A Fisher was commssioned to print it--- to announce a mass meeting.
Q Did Fischer say anything about printing it?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A He went away to have it printed, but it was closed.
Q What was closed?
A a The printing establishemnt
Q How do you know it was closed?
A He came back and said so.
Q How long was he gone?
A About half an hour.
Q Did he say anything about where he was going to have it printed
A No.
Q Was anything said at that meeting, and, if so, by whom, as to what to do if the police should interefere with the Haymarket meeting?
Question objected to; question withdrawn.
Q Go on and tell what else was said as fully as you can remember?
A It was said that we ourselves should not participate at the meeting of the Haymarket; we should meet at the respective places; only a committee should be present at the Haymarket, and if they should report that something had happened then we should come down upon them- attack them.
Q Should attack them where and attack who?
A Every Group had to look out--- had to arrange for that themselves.
Q Should attack who?
A Our opponents-- our adversaries.
Q Who were the opponents mentioned in the meeting?
A First the police.
Q Who else?
A The police and militia--- whatever should come against us.
Q Who else besides the police and militiA if anybody?
A We also think that the fire department are our opponents
On motion of defendant's counsel last answer ordereded stricken out.
Q Was anything said at the meeting as to who should be attacked?
A Yes.
Q What was said? Give it all as fully as you can remember
A First we were to attack the police station--- the North Avenue Police Station, and then the next one-- as fate would have it.
Q Was there anything said in that meeting as to who were to be attacked? Was there anything said in that meeting on Monday night as to who were to be attacked whenever the conflict should occur? Was there any places or persons other than the North Avenue Police Station specifically mentioned to be attacked?
A No.
Q Was there anything said as to what should be done in case the police interfered with the Haymarket meeting?
Objected to as leading; objection overruled by the Court; to which ruling defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A No.
Q Was there anything said as to why the police stations in the different parts of the town should be attacked?
Objected to. (No ruling).
A Yes.
Q What was that?
A We have seen how the police oppressed the workingmen, how the capitalists oppress the workingmen, and that six men were killed at McCormick's and that we commence to take the rights in our own hands.
Q Who said that?
A It was said by several; we discussed about it.
Q Was anything said as to why the police station should be attacked as to that particular time?
A Yes, It was the plan to attack the police station to prevent the police from coming to aid.
Q Coming to aid what?
A If they should be a fight in the city.
Q Was there anything said bout there being a fight in the city?
A There was nothing said about it but we supposed so; we thought so.
Q Who thought so?
A All of us.
Counsel for defendants moved to strike out the last answer preceding the last question--that part of the answer "We thought so."
Motion allowed by the Court.
Q Did the meeting over which you presided take any action in regard to the plan which you have been narrating?
A Yes.
Q What action did the meeting take?
A The plan was adopted, with the understanding that every Group ought to act independently, according to the general plan,
Q How many members were present at the time the plan was adopted?
A 70 or 80.
Q Were they all from the Northwest Group?
A No; they were from all the Groups.
Q From what parts of the city?
A From the West Side, and from the South Side and from the North Side.
Q Any from the Southwest Side?
A That I cannot say
Q Was anything said at the meeting as to what should be done at other parts of the city than the North Side or the Northwest Side?
A The same should be done.
Q What was said if anything as to what should be done in case the police should attempt to disperse the Haymarket meeting?
Objected to; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A There was nothing said about the Haymarket.
There was nothing expected that the police would get to the Haymarket, only if strikers were attacked then we should shoot the police.
Q What else?
A In that case we should simply strike them down however best we could, with bombs, or whatever would be at our disposition.
Q From where was the committee or of whom was the committee to be c mposed which was to be sent to the Haymarket Square?
A One or two from each Group.
Q What were they to do?
A They should observe the movement not only on the Haymarket Square, but in the different parts of the city, and if a conflict should happen then they should report to us.
Q Should report to whom?
A If it happened in the day time then they should cause the publication of the work "Ruhe".
Counsel for the defendants moved the c urt to counsel out the last answer as not responsive to the question.
Motion overruled to which ruling defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
MR. INGHAM: If it happened in the night time to whom were they to make their report?
A Then they should report personally to the members.
Q Where were the members to be?
Objected to.
Question withdrawn.
Q Where were they to find the members?
A At home.
Q Q What was the maning of this word "Ruhe"?
A On that day we did not understand it ourselves ---why the word "Ruhe" was in there.
Q What did the word "Ruhe" mean? What was said at the meeting as to what the word "Ruhe" should signify?
Objected to.
THE COURT: In the meeting was anyhting said ss to what the word "Ruhe" should mean if published?
A Yes.
MR. INGHAM: What was said about that?
A It should be an indication that we should have to meet here and there. The word "Ruhe" should only be inserted in the newspaper if a downright revolution had occurred.
Q Who said that?
A That was in the plan.
Q Who first mentioned it at the meeting?
A Fischer first called the attention of the meeting to the word "Ruhe".
Q Was anyhting said as to where the word "Ruhe" should be published?
A Yes, in the Arbeiter Zeitubg under the head of "Letter Box."
Q Was there anything said as to who would see that it was published there?
A The committee.
Q Was anything said as to who would take it to the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A No; it was the business of the committee to attend to it.
Q Who comprised the committee?
A I only know one of them.
Q Who was that?
A Kraemer.
Q Who appointed the committee?
A The meeting.
Q When that plan was put to vote before the meeting for their action, who put it to vote?
Objected to.
Question withdrawn.
Q Did the meeting adopt this plan of the Northwest Group?
A All of them accepted it.
Q How did they do it--by vote or otherwise?
A By ballot.
Q What do you mean by ballot?
A By raising of the hand.
Q Before they voted on it did you announce the plan to the meeting---did you state it?
A Yes.
Q From whom or from whose statements did you get the plan which you put to the meeting?
A
Objected to.
THE COURT: Let him state all that occurred at the meeting.
Question withdrawn.
MR INGHAM: Q Who put the question to the meeting?
Objected to: objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
Q At the time that the plan was adopted at the meeting who made the motion for the adoption?
A The motion came from Engle.
Q Did any one second it?
A Yes.
Q Who seconded it?
A That I don't know.
Q Who, put it to vote?
A I have put it to the meeting.
Q During the discussion was anything said about where dynamite or bombs or arms could be obtained that you remember of?
Objected to; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel than and there duly excepted.
A Not on that evening.
Q What time did you leave the meeting?
A About half past ten.
Q Where did you go?
A I went home.
Q Where were you Tuesday?
A On Tuesday I was at the shop meeting at 105 Wells street.
Q Were you present at the Haymerket Square on Tuesday evening?
A Partially, yes sir.
Q What time did you go there?
A About half past eight.
Q Why did you go there?
A I did not go there on account of the meeting. I had to go to Zepf's Hall on account of the furniture workers Union meeting.
Q After the plan of the northwest group had been adopted by the meeting did you state that plan to any one at the meeting?
A It was said that this plan should be communicated to such reliable men that were absent.
Q Did you repeat that plan to any one who came into the meeting after the meeting had adopted it?
A Yes.
Q Did you ever see the word "Ruhe" in the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A Yes sir.
Q Where were you when you saw it?
A In the ThaliA Hall on Milwaukee Avenue.
Q What number on Milwaukee avenue?
A 636 I think. I could not say for certain.
Q Look at the paper which I now show you--Arbeiter Zeitung of May 4th and see if that is the word you saw?
A Yes.
Q What time of the day did you see that?
A About six o'clock in the evening.
Q What is the Thalia Hall?
A It is a saloon.
Q Who met there?
A The second company of the Lehr and Wehr Verein and the Northwest Side Group met there.
Arbeiter Zeitung May 4th, 1886, referred to above introduced in evidence on behalf of People; same marked People's Ex. 8, in Vol. of "Exhibits" hereto attached.
Q Did you ever see this circular (paper marked Peoples Exhibit 1? (Also marked Peoples Ex. 5, in Volumn of "Exhibits hereto attached)
A. Yes.
Q Where did you see that first?
A I believe at 105 Wells street.
Q When did you see it?
A I think in the afternoon about two or three oclock. I would not be sure.
Q Of what day?
A Of Tuesday.
Q At whose place?
A At 105 Wells street.
Q Was that the same day on which the bomb was thrown?
A Yes.
Q How long did you stay at Zepf's Hall?
A The bomb was thrown there already when I left there.
Q Did you go to Zepf's Hall before you went to the Haymarket?
A First I went to Haymarket and then to Zepf's Hall.
Q How long were you at the Haymerket?
A First when Mr. Speis spoke I was there about a quarter of an hour.
Q Where was it that Mr. Spies spoke?
A On the wagon, on Desplaines street.
Q How long did you stay there?
A About a quarter of an hour.
Q Why did you leave there?
A I do not understand English.
Q Did Spies speak in English?
A Yes.
Q Where did you go?
A I went to the Furniture Workers meeting.
Q Was anybody with you?
A Yes, the furniture workers.
Q Before you got to the Haymarket Square---on your way to the Haymarket Square did you stop at any house.
A Yes.
Q Whose house?
A At Mr. Engle's.
Q Who was with you when you stopped at Engles?
A I do not know them; they were some people of the Northwest Side Group. I do not know their names.
Q Do you know whether Mr. Breitenfield was there or not?
A When I went to the meeting he was not.
Q Was Engle at home?
A No.
Q After you had been to the meeting and gone to Zepf's Hall, how long did you stay at Zepf's Hall?
A a short time---about ten minutes.
Q Where were you when the bomb was thrown?
A. In Zepf's Hall.
Q. What did you do after the bomb was thrown?
A. Oh, there was some disturbance and the door was closed; after the door was opened again we went home.
Q Who did you go home with?
A Alone.
Q Did you stop on your way home at anybody's house?
A Yes.
Q Whose house did you stop at?
A At Engles.
Q Did you have any conversation there with Mr. Engle?
A No.
Q Did you have any talk in his presence in which he took part?
A I went there and told him that such and such had happened at the Haymarket.
Q What did you tell him had happened at the Haymarket?
Objected to on behalf of all the defendants; which objection was overruled by the court, to which ruling defendants' counsel then and there excepted.
A I went in the store. They had assembled in the back part of it in their dwelling place, around a jovial glass of beer and I went in there and told them that a bomb was thrown at the Haymarket and that about a hundred people had been killed there.
Q What was said?
A I told them they should make haste and go home---that would be the best thing for them.
Q What did Engle say?
A Engles said yes, they should go home.
Q Did Engle say anything else that you remember?
A No.
Q Did he say anything about the throwing of the bomb being a failure?
A Objected to as leading and incompetent.
Q Was anything said by Engle as to the success or failure of the bomb, and if so, what?
MR. BLACK: Of course it is understood that all that transpired between this witness and Engle is objected to on bhalf of the other seven defendants.
THE COURT: Yes.
(Question read)?
A No.
Q Look at the circular which I now show you, marked "Peoples Exhibit 2". (Also marked Peoples Ex. 6 in Vol. of "Exhibits" hereto attached). Did you ever see that circular before?
A Yes.
Q Where?
A At the meeting.
Q What meeting?
A On Monday evening.
Q Mr. Waller, did you ever have any bombs?
Objected to by defendants.
Q (Question read)
A Formerly about a half year ago I had one.
Q What kind of a bomb?
A It was an eight inch pipe.
Q Made out of what?
A a gas pipe or water pipe.
Q You say about eight inches long?
A Seven or eight inches long.
Q What was it filled with?
A That I did not investigate---probably with dynamite.
On motion of defendants counsel the words "probably dynamite" ordered stricken out.
Q From whom did you get those bombs?
A From Fisher.
Q The defendant--the man sitting over there?
A Yes.
MR. BLACK: The witness has said he only had one bomb. You should not use the word bombs.
MR. INGHAM: How many bombs did you have?
A One.
Q From whom did you get that bomb?
A Fisher.
Q The defendant?
A Yes sir.
Q Point him out?
A Over there (indicating).
Q When did you get that bomb from him?
A It was on Thnaksgiving day.
Q Of what year?
A Last year.
Q Where did you get it--in what part of the city?
A In ThaliA Hall.
Q What did he say to you if anything when he gave it to you?
Objected to on behalf of all defendants. Objection overruled, to which ruling of the court the defendants by their counsel then and there excepted.
A I should use it if we would be attacked by the policemen just as it happened at this time.
Answer objected to.
THE COURT: Tell what Fisher said?
A He gave us those bombs which we should use on Market Square; there was a meeting on Market Square.
Q What did Fischer say?
A He said nothing, but simply this "that we should use it."
Q Where were you when Fischer gave you the bomb?
A In ThaliA Hall.
Q Who were present at ThaliA Hall?
A Mostly members of the Northwest Side Group and several men of the Wehr and Lehr Verein.
Q Now at the time those bombs were distributed what did he say?
A He said nothing---I don't know of anything. Every one knew how the bombs were to be used.
On motion of defendants counsel the last sentense of the answer was stricken out.
Q Was there any public meeting to take place on Thanks-giving day?
Objected to; objection overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A Yes.
Q Where was that meeting to be?
A On Market Square.
Q Where is that?
A On the Southwest side.
Q What streets run into it?
A It is near Madison street.
Q Madison and what other street?
A That I don't know.
Q Is it on the east side of the river or on the west side of the river?
A On the north side of the river.
Q How were the members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein known?
A We have no names.
Q What did you have?
A Numbers.
Q Did each man have a number?
A Yes.
MR. BLACK: All this testimony is objected to and we save an exception. It is understood that all of this testimony is objected to.
Mr. ZEISLER: Yes, I understand it.
MR. INGHAM: Did they wear their numbers?
A No.
Q How did you know the number of each man?
A We did not know it. Everybody had to know his own number.
Q What was your number?
A 19.
Q How did you know the number of anybody else?
A I did not know it.
Q Were the numbers belonging to each man kept secret any way?
A Not exactly, secret. We did not pay particular attention to it. One knew the names of the others sometimes and sometimes not.
Q I wish you would give as nearly as you can the names of every one who was present at this meeting 54 Lake street in basement Monday night?
MR. SOLOMON: We move now to strike out all the examination of this witness from the time the objection was made by Mr. Foster.
Motion overruled; to which ruling of the court defendants by their counsel then and there duly excepted.
A Of those I knew there were Fischer and Engle.
Q Who else?
A Mr. Brightenfeld and Mr. Kruger - the one that is dead now.
Q What was his name?
A Rheinhold Krueger, and another Mr. Kreuger and Greenewald, Schrader, Weber, Hueber, Lehmann, Herman, that is all as far as I remember.
Q Do you remember whether William Hageman was present or not?
A I do not remember. I do not know it.
Adjourned to 10 o'clock A. M. tomorrow.
Saturday 10 A.M., July 17, A. D. 1886.
Gottfried Waller, a witness on behalf of the people, being re-called to the stand, was further examined by Mr. Ingham, through Mr. E.F.L. Gauss, as interpreter, and testified as follows:
Q What became of the bomb which you had?
Objected to; objection overruled and exception.
A I gave it to a member of the---I don't know how that society was rendered here.
MR. BLACK--Lehr and Wehr Verein. Just give the German.
A Lehr and Wehr Verein---I gave it to a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein. I had it with me two weeks in my house.
MR. INGHAM: Q Do you know what became of it finally?
Objected to.
Q Do you know of your own knowledge what became of it?
A Yes sir.
Q What?
A He had it exploded in the woods in a hollow tree.
Q Did you have any bomb or any revolcer with you when you went to the Haymarket Square or any arm of any kind?
Objected to. Objection overruled; exception by defendants.
A I had a revolver with me.
Q Did you have any bomb?
A No.
Q Do you remember whether Schnaubelt was present at the Lake Street meeting or not, Monday night?
A Yes.
Q What is Schnaubelt's first name?
A As much as I know, it is Rudolph.
Q Look at the photograph which I now show you. (Handing witness photograph, which was marked Exhibit 5; see below).
A That is Schnaubelt.
MR. INGHAM. I offer that in evidence. Same hereto attached and marked Peoples' Exhibit 9, in Vol. of "Exhibits" hereto attached.
Q Did Schnaubelt say anything at that meeting?
A Yes.
Q What did he say?
A He said that we should inform our members in other places of the resolutions.
Q Did he say anything else?
A He said that the thing should commence in other places also.
Q What thing?
A "It." He said that "it" should also commence at other places.
Q Ask him what he means by "it"?
A The revolution.
Q Were you present at a meeting at EmmA street on the Sunday before this meeting at Lake Street?
A Yes sir.
Q Where was that meeting held?
A I cannot name the place exactly. On EmmA street about fifty houses from Milwaukee avenue.
Q Whose place was it?
A It is known as the Bohemian Hall.
Q Do you know who keeps it?
A No.
Q How did you come to go to that meeting?
A I was invited to it.
Q Who by?
A One with the name of Krueger.
Q Do you remember his first name?
A August Krueger.
Q Ask him how many Kruegers he knows?
A Two.
Q What are they called?
A Reinhold Krueger and August Krueger.
Q Are they also called the little Krueger and the large Krueger?
A Yes.
Q Which one of those two was it?
A The little one.
Q Just here I will interrupt you and ask something I forgot: you said yesterday that Krueger was present, that there was a Krueger present at the meeting on Lake street. Which Krueger was it?
A They were both there.
Q Give their names?
A Reinbold and August Krueger.
Q What time did you get to the meeting at EmmA street--what time of the day?
A The Sunday the second, in the morning at 10 o'clock.
Q Who were present at that meeting?
A Mostly members of the Northwestern Groups. Some members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein.
Q Give the names as fully as you can remember?
A Engel, Fischer, Greenewald, Krueger, the two, August Krueger and Reinbold, Schrader; I myself. That is all that I know.
Q By Engel and Fischer do you mean the defendants in this case?
A Yes.
Q Who presided at that meeting?
A I did not know him.
Q What was said at the meeting?
(Same objection on behalf of all of the defendants except Fischer and Engel. Overruled and exception by defendants.)
A The same that I stated yesterday, Engel's plan.
Q Who proposed the plan?
A Engel.
Q Now, what did he say?
A He submitted a plan of his own conception, according to which whenever it would come to a conflict between the Northwestern Groups- he had submitted it to the Northwestern Group also--according to which plan as soon as it came to a conflict between the police and the Northwestern Groups, that bombs should be thrown into the Police stations and the rifle men of the Lehr and Wehr Verein should post themselves in line in a certain distance and whoever would come out should be shot down.
Q Come out of where?
A All those that would come out of the station or stations, he had said: then it should proceed in that way until we would come to the heart of the city.
Q What else?
A That is about all. Within the city, of course the fight should commence in earnest.
Q Did anybody else say anything?
A There was some opposition, disputes against the plan, also.
Q Who opposed?
A I didn't know him, or didn't know them.
Q What did he say---the man that you did not know?
A He thought that there was too few of us and it would be better if we would place ourselves among the people and fight right in the midst of them.
Q Did the meeting take any action with regard to the plan?--- Was anything else said then, after this man had spoken in opposition?
A Yes sir. There was something else said--some more said.
Q What else was said?
A There was some opposition to that, to be in the midst of the crowd, as we could not know who would be our nearest neighbor of the crowd; there might be a detective right near us, or someone else.
Q Was there anything else said, that you remember?
A No sir.
Q Did the meeting take any action of these plans?
A The plan was at last finally accepted.
Q Which plan?
A The plan of Engel.
Q Look at the book which I now show you. (Showing witness small pink colored paper-covered book, in German.) Have you ever seen a copy of that book?
A I did not see them myself, no.
Q Not this particular book, but one just like it?
A No.
MR. INGHAM--Take the witness!
MR. BLACK: As a matter of form before cross examination is proceeded with we move to strike out the entire testimony of this witness, and I also move to strike out, at the suggestion of my associate all of the testimony which has come in under objection, especially, and take an exception.
THE COURT--Yes.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY Mr. ZEISLER:
Q Mr. Waller, how long have you been a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein?
A I had left it about four or five months ago, but aside from that I had been a member four or five months. I think he said I had left it four months ago and had been previously a member four or five months.
Q When you joined the Lehr and Wehr Verein were you informed of the objects of the society?
A No.
Q Did you ever see a copy of the Rules, of the Constitution and By-Laws of that Society?
A No.
Q Didn't you know that the objects of the Lehr and Wehr Verein are the physical and intellectual advancement of its members?
A I became aware of that afterwards.
Q You know however, that those are the objects of the Society?
A yes.
Q Who of these eight defendants are members of the Lehr and Wehr Verein, if you know?
THE COURT: Do you mean now, or then?
MR. ZEISLER--Are or were, about the 4th of May, of course: that is what we refer to.
A I don't know whether Mr. Schwab is still a member or no. I don't know anyone else--don't know it of any one else.
Q Was Engel a member of that Society during the time you were a member?
A No.
Q Was Fischer?
A No.
Q Was Lingg?
A No.
Q Was any of the other defendants?
A No.
Q You say that the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung under the heading "Letter Box" meant that the Lehr and Wehr Verein was to meet at Greif's Hall--is that so?
A I did not say that.
Q What did you say about that?
THE COURT---That is not competent Mr. Zeisler, to question a witness as to what has taken place here. You question him about what took place, about matters which are the subject of investigation. But if one repetition is admissible, then there is no limit.
MR. ZEISLER--Very well.
Q Have you ever seen the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung under that head on previous occasions?
A Yes.
Q How many times?
A I think once before.
Q About when was that?
A I cannot tell any more exactly.
Q Well, how many months before the third of May,---or weeks?
A One or one and a half months.
Q Did you go there?
A No.
Q You said you went to Greif's Hall on the night of May the 3rd pursuant to the "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung--that is so?
A Yes, but I didn't want to go there; I was gotted. Somebody came for me.
Q Who came for you?
A a member of the Lehr and Wehr Verein by the name of Clermond.
Q You said you had no other reason for going to Greif's Hall that night except that you had seen the letter "Y" in the Arbeiter Zeitung. Is that so?
A No; I didn't have any other reasons.
Q And you say you had seen no other document or no document before you went there?
A No.
MR. INGHAM--Mr. Interpreter, I want to ask you if you say that he had no other reason or reasons?
THE INTERPRETER--He said he had no other reasons.
MR. ZEISLER--No other reason.
THE INTERPRETER--No, reasons; he used the plural.
Q You saw one of the defendants before you went to Greif's Hall--who was that?
A It was Engel.
Q But you had no conversation with him about the purpose of this meeting?
A We did not know what it would be---for what purpose it was.
Q Now, of the eight defendants only Engel and Fischer were at that meeting? Is that so?
A Yes, as much as I knew, or as many as I knew.
Q Who requested Engel to state the resolutions adopted at the meeting of the Northwest Side Group the day before?
A If I am correct he stated it at first of his own accord; the second time I had requested him to state it, to lay it before the meeting. When then more people came to the meeting, I requested him to lay it before the meeting again.
Q But you are not quite sure that he stated those resolutions of his own accord?
A I am sure that he drew them up, the Sunday before.
Q I have not been taling about the Sunday meeting. I was talking about the Monday meeting. Are you quite sure that he laid those resolutions before the meeting of his own accord?
A Yes.
A You said, I think, he did so, didn't you?
THE COURT--Mr. Zeisler, that is not proper; you can cross examine him of course to any extent, as to things that occurred out of the court room.
MR. ZEISLER--All right, I will withdraw the question.
Q Now, is it not the fact that Mr. Engel both at the meeting on Sunday and at the meeting on Monday night stated that this plan was to be followed in case the police should interfere with your right of free speech and free assembling only?
A If the police should attack us.
Q Did he not say that that plan was to be followed only in case the police should interfere with your rights that I have mentioned, and by brutal force?
A It was said that any time whenever we should be attacked by the police we should defend ourselves
Q. I am not speaking about what was said by others. I am speaking about the plan laid before the meeting by Engel. Did he not say that this plan was to be followed only when the police would by brutal force interfere with your right of free assembley and free speech?
A. It was said that we should use--we should resort to this plan, or to the execution of it whenever it would suit us, or whenever the police would attack us.
THE COURT:--The witness don't get the point of the question.-Whether Engel said on what occasion the plan was to be employed.
A No--he did not say that.
Mr. ZEISLER:-Now, you say that you made the motion yourself, that a meeting should be called for Tuesday night?
A No; Tuesday morning.
Q But you first made the proposition that a meeting should be called for the next day? Isn't that so?
A No; I did not make that proposition. I was Chairman.
Q Who made the motion?
A nO. I simply stated that it would be good to hold a meeting the next morning at 10 o'clock. Who made a motion I cannot now remember, but it was voted down, and Engel--or, Fischer then made the proposition that a meeting should be held at Haymarket Square on the following night.
MR. GRINNELL--Didn't the witness say something in that first part about Market Square?
THE INTERPRETER--Haymarket Square.
MR. WITNESS--Market Squate.
MR. ZEISLER--Now, Mr. Waller, you mean to be understood that you made the suggestion of that meeting but somebody else then took it up and made the motion, is that it?
A Yes.
Q And you say that nothing was said at the Monday night meeting with reference to any action to be taken by you on the Haymarket?
A We should not do anything; we were not to do anything at the Haymarket Square.
Q Wasn't the plan that you should not be present there at all?
A Yes.
Q And you also say that you did not anticipate that the police would come to the Haymarket?
THE INTERPRETER--He said simply, no.
Q What do you mean by no--it was not anticipated?
A We did not think that the police would come to Haymarket.
Q And for this reason no preparations were made for meeting any police attack on the Haymarket Square?
A No; not by us.
Q And you say that the word "Ruhe" was adopted as a signal to call all the members of the armed section to their meeting places in case of a downright revolution. That is whA what you want to be understood as saying?
A It was to be the signal to bring the members together at the various meetings in case of a revolution, but it was not to be in the papers until the revolution should actually take place.
Q Where should it be if not in the paper?
A In the Letter Box in the Arbeiter Zeitung.
Q You say that Fischer went away at night to go to a printing establishment and order the hand-bills calling the Haymarket meeting---is that so?
A Yes.
Q About how late was that?
A It was shortly after 9 o'clock.
Q And when did he come back?
A Half an hour after - wards
Q Did he say to what printing establishment he had gone?
A I do not know.
Q Didn't he say that he had been to Wehrer & Klein's and that they had closed?
A I cannot say where he had been: he only came and said that they had already closed.
MR. INGHAM--That they what?
A That they had already closed the printing establishment.
MR. ZEISLER--When did you see the word "Ruhe" in the Arbeiter Zeitung?
A Sunday morning at ThaliA Hall and in the "Fackel."
MR. WITNESS--Ruhe?
MR. ZEISLER--Yes.
A On Tuesday.
Q About what time?
A About 6 o'clock.
Q When you read it you knew the meaning of it, didn't you?
A I knew the meaning, but I didn't know why it was in the paper.
MR. ZEISLER--I wish the interpreter to say to the witness that I do not care to have him answer to anything that I have not asked him. He always says more than I ask him.
Q Now, where were you at eight o'clock?
THE COURT--What night?
MR. ZEISLER--That very night.
THE COURT--Tuesday?
MR. ZEISLER--Tuesday night, yes.
A Tuesday night, I think I was still at home.
Q And from there you went to the meeting of the Furniture Workers' Union, No. 1, didn't you?
A Not directly.
Q Where did you stop?
A Stopped at Mr. Engel's.
Q Was he at home?
A No.
Q From there then you went to the Haymarket?
A Yes sir.
Q But only stopped a few minutes because you did not understand English.
A I was there about half an hour, quarter of an hour; half an hour it might have been.
Q Who was speaking while you were there?
A Mr. Spies.
Q And from there you went to Zepfs' Hall where the meeting of the Furniture Workers' Union was held?
A I met Fischer, walked hither and thither a few times with him on Randolph street, and then I went to Zepfs' Hall.
Q I did not ask you whether about who you have met. I only ask you whether or not you had gone--
THE COURT--It is an answer to your question. Because your question implied that he went direct without interrupting from the Haymarket to this Hall that you speak of. Now, that explains that he did not go direct, and he gives his movements between.
MR. ZEISLER--I don't care anything for the movements. I only wanted to know whether he went after that to the Furniture Workers' Union?
Q Well, afterwards, you went to the Furniture Workers' Union, did you not?
A Yes.
Q Engel didn't say anything to you, did he, when he met you or when you met him at the Haymarket?
A I did not meet him at the Haymarket.
Q Where did you meet him--Engel?
A I did not meet him al all any more on that Tuesday night except after 10 at his own house.
Q Now, you were at his house at 8 o'clock you say and did not find him at home: and did not see him that evening until after 10 o'clock - I mean Engel?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you see him as near as you can remember?
A Tuesday evening.
Q What time--what hour?
A Tuesday evening about half past 10.
Q After the bomb had been thrown?
A Yes.
Q Now, you met Fischer on your way from the Haymarket to Zepfs' Hall, didn't you?
A I met him at Haymarket.
Q Did he say anything to you?
A We were walking about some time---yes.
Q Did he ask you why you were not at Wicker Park?
A That I cannot say.
Q Did he say anything about Wicker Park?
A I don't think so.
Q So Fischer said nothing about Wicker Park?
A I don't believe so.
Q Did he say anything about the police?
A We once walked over to Desplaines Street Station, and the police were mounting five or six patrol wagons, and I made the remark "I suppose they are getting ready to drive out to McCormick's so that they might be out there early in the morning."
Q Well, did Fischer say anything to that?
A He assented to my remark.
Q Now, where did you leave Fischer--where was he when you left him?
A I think in the neighborhood of Desplaines Street Station.
Q Is that all that was said about the police between you and him on that occasion?
A That was all--about the police.
Q How many people were there assembled at the Haymarket about that time when you talked with Fischer?
A Three hundred and fifty or four hundred men.
Q Had it not been--wasn't it expected by the meeting of Monday night that there should be a gathering of about twenty-five thousand people on the Haymarket?
A We thought so.
Q Did anybody say that he thought so?
A It was to be a mass meeting.
Q Well, that is not strictly responsive.
THE COURT--The question is whether anybody in the Monday night meeting said that there would be twenty-five thousand?
MR. ZEISLER--Or more?
A Nobody expressed himself to that effect.
Q Was it not the sole, or at least the principle purpose of the meeting on the Haymarket to protest against the action of the police, in shooting at the workingmen at McCormick's riot, or at the riot at McCormick's factory?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you saw Fischer there and there were about three hundred and fifty to four hundred people assembled, about half past eight, did Fischer or you say anything about preparations to meet an attack by the police?
A No. There was nothing said between them.
Q When did you say you were at Engel's house on Tuesday night after the bomb had been thrown? What hour?
A Half past 10 o'clock about.
Q When did the meeting of the Furniture Workers Union adjourn.
A Shortly after the bomb was thrown, but I don't know. I was down below, downstairs, when they adjourned.
Q Now, you said that the saloon was shut up for awhile after the bomb had been thrown---was that so?
A Somebody was at the door and would not let anyone come out as long as there was firing.
Q About how long was that door locked?
A a short time.
Q About how many minutes?
A Three or four minutes.
Q And then you went in again?
A No.
Q Well, you had not come out yet, had you?
A When the door opened, I came out and went home: I did not go home directly. I went first to Engel.
Q Now, how long a distance is it from Zepf's Hall to Engel's house?
A About fifteen minutes walk.
Q Do you know the time or the exact time, when the bomb was thrown?
A Not exactly.
Q Well, what is your estimation?
A About 10 minutes after 10.
Q Now, when you came to Engel's who was there?
A Bretenfeldt, Krueger--the little Krueger, Kreamer,---the little Krueger, Kraemer, and a few others whom I do not know.
Q Does not Kraemer live at the house, the same house where Engel lives?
A I think, yes--in the rear, I think.
THE COURT: Although you put your question in the present tense do you mean now or then.
Mr. ZEISLER:--Now. I intended to ask him whether it was not the same date?-
Q Now, at the time--I mean on May the 4th--did Kraemer live there to?
A I cannot assert it.
Q You know that he lives there now, but don't you know that he lived there on May the 4th?
A I don't know that either---that he lives there now or not.
Q When did he live there?
A I don't know. He was there and it was only said that he lived there.
MR. BLACK--Mr. Interpreter, his answer, as I understand, was that the little Krueger was there, not both of them?
THE INTERPRETER--The little Krueger: he said Krueger, the little Krueger. I did not know that he said that in explanation: I thought he meant both.
MR. BLACK--But what he meant was that little Krueger was there?
THE INTERPRETER--That little Krueger was there only.
MR. ZEISLER--Now, didn't Engel on that occasion say it had been a piece of nonsense, what they did on the Haymarket--that the police are workingmen as well as we?
A Not Engel said so. It was I that said so.
Q Didn't Engel say so to?
A Yes: afterwards also.
Q Did he not say that the Revolution must arise from the people, if the police and the militiA see that the people arise in masses then they will throw their arms away? ---Then we can accomplish our purposes without bloodshed. Did he say that?
A No.
Q How long did you stay there?
A At the highest five minutes.
Q Didn't he say that he would never give his consent to such a butchery as that on the Haymarket?
A He didn't say anything that evening--nothing at all,--that is, he didn't say anything of that, and he said that we should go home.
Q Now, when you left there did Kraemer, and Krueger and some of the others stay with him?
A That I did not know--when I left Breitenfeldt accompanied me.
Q But when you left with Breitenfeldt, Kraemer and Krueger were still there?
A That I cannot say.
Q Did they leave before you left?
A No sir. Several went out of the door together, and where they all went I do not know.
Q You know that you are indicted for conspiracy, do you not?
A Yes.
Q When were you arrested, if you remember?
A I do not know any more exactly.
Q Well, tell me about how many weeks after the 4th of May?
A About two weeks.
Q Who arrested you?
A Two detectives.
Q Do you remember their names?
A One's name is Stift, and the other's name is Whalen.
Q To what station were you brought?
A To East Chicago Avenue.
Q And were youmput down into a cell at once?
A No.
Q Who did you see there first at the station?
A Captain Shaack.
Q How son after that did you see Mr. Furthman?
A In the evening.
Q About what hour in the day were you arrested?
A I think it was in the afternoon at 2 o'clock.
Q And what hour was it when you saw Mr. Furthman?
A Between 7 and 8: I cannot say exactly.
Q In what part of the station were you between 2 and the time you saw Mr. Furthman?
A I had to wait in the court room.
Q When were you released, Mr. Waller?
A About half past eight.
Q About half past eight of the same day on which you were arrested?
A The same day.
Q Had the detectives who arrested you a warrant for your arrest?
Objected to.
THE COURT--That don't make any differonce. What happened to the witness himself is admissible.
MR. ZEISLER--Did they exhibit any warrant to you?
Objected to: objection overruled.
A I did not ask about it.
Q I did not ask you whether you asked for it; I asked whether it was shown you.
THE COURT--Did he show you anything?
A They told me that they were not arresting me. That Capt. Schaack only wanted to see me.
THE COURT--Well, even that is not an answer to the question.
Q The question is, did they show you any warrant?
MR. INGHAM--That he has to answer by yes or no.
MR. ZEISLER--Was a warrant shown to you, yes or no?
A No.
Q Have you ever been arrested since your indictment?
A No.
Q About how many times were you ordered to come to the Chicago Avenue Police Station since you were first brought there?
A About four or five times.
Q At every of those occasions did you have any conversation with Mr. Furthman about the statements that you made here yesterday?
A No, not every time.
Q Did Mr. Furthman, or anybody else at the Station tell you that you were indicted for conspiracy?
A Mr. Furthman communicated the fact to me at one time. That is, he did not say that we had been, but that we were to be indicted. I saw that we were indicted in the paper.
Q Now, on that first day, when you were at the Chicago Avenue Police Station, did you make the same statement that you made here yesterday?
A Yes. Not all at the same time.
Q What inducements we e held out to you in the first place for making your statements, Mr. Waller?
A There were no offers made to me.
Q Where did you live on May the 4th, Mr. Waller?
A 509 Milwaukee Avenue.
Q Wher4 do you live now?
A 130 Sedgwick Street.
Q Since when have you lived at 130 Sedgwick Street?
A Today a month.
Q Wasn't your rent for the place where you live now% paid once or more than once, by Mr. Furthman, or by Capt. Schaack, or somebody connected with the East Chicago Avenue Station?
A I had no money at the time and Capt. Schaack gave me six dollars and a half for the rent.
Q Have you received money from any of those persons that I have mentioned at any other time since you were arrested?
A Whenever I used my time I was paid for it.
Q What time do you mean?
A We once had to sit all day in the station, and we were paid $2.00 for that day.
Q How many times did you sit there the whole day at the Station?
A Once.
Q So you say that you received $2. for sitting there a whole day only once?
A Yes.
Q Did you receive money from them for any other considerations or on other occasions?
A I have been on a strike so long and Capt. Schaack said to me that if I were out of money that my wife shold come to his place and that he would give her something, and he gave her three times $3.00
Q Are you willing to swear that he only gave her three dollars on three occasions?
A Yes; that is, he gave me twice before, $5. each time.
Q Now, you received once $2 for sitting there a whole day? And your wife received on three occasions three dollars each, and you received twice, $5? And you received once before $6.50 for rent. Is that all the money you have ever received from those gentlemen?
A I only received $5 once and at another time $6.50.
Q Is that all?
A Yes.
Q On what day did you move into 130 Sedgwick Street?
A The 15th of last month. On the 17th--not the 15th.
Q How many rooms did you have there?
A Two.
Q And what is the rent?
A $6.50.
Q Have you been at work since the 4th of May?
A Yes. I am to work now, these two weeks.
Q Who do you work for?
A For Peterson on Wells Street.
Q Who got the job for you?
A I, myself.
Q Didn't Mr Furthman of Capt. Schaack, or any of the gentlemen connected with the East Chicago Avenue Station help you to get that employment?
A I went there myself and obtained work of the foreman, but he said that I was--- when I was to commence work, I was told that I was on the black list and could not work, and as I had to tell Capt. Schaack where I was at work, he went there and talked to them and then I could commence work.
Q So Capt. Schaack assisted you in getting that job?
A Yes; he helped me to it.
Q What do you mean by being on the black list, Mr. Waller?
A The bosses put all those upon the black list who were anyway connected with the strike or the effort to obtain eight hours work, and they were not to be employed any further.
Q To-day is the day where you have to pay your rent? Did you save enough during the last two weeks to pay your rent?
A I have paid it to-day.
Q You say that you know that you are indicted for conspiracy, and you say that you were not arrested under that charge. Did you ever give bail to be released?
A No.
Q Do you know a certain hall called Foltz's Hall?
A Yes.
Q Where is that hall?
A It is on Wells Street and Chicago Avenue.
Q Do you remember having been in that hall on Wednesday, the 9th of June?
A Yes. I don't know whether that is the exact date or not.
Q You remember that it was a Wednesday?
A Yes.
Q In that meeting, or when you were at Folz's Hall that evening, that Wednesay evening, who were there?
A There were several gentlemen there, and almost all those indicted for conspiracy.
Q Was Mr. Grinnell there?
A Yes.
Q Was Mr. Furthman there?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember a gentleman by the name of SChoeninger?
A Yes.
Q Is that Mr. Schoeninger of the Northwester Toy Company?
A I think so; I don't know.
Q Was there a gentleman by the name of Strotz?
A Yes; Stotz.
Q Was there a gentleman by the name of Nettlehorst there, too?
A I cannot assert it.
Q Now were you not informed at that meeting that all of you were indicted for conspiracy, but Mr. Grinnell said that he had the capiases in his pocket, and would not have them used against you, would not have you arrested as long as you would do as he pleases and make those statements that you had made before?
Mr. ZEISLER: Now, it would be a great deal easier to call upon the prominent Germans who were there, and put them on the stand and prove what was said there.
THE COURT: The question is competent if the witness understood Mr. Grinnell.
Mr. ZEISLER: Now, did Mr. Grinnell speak and Mr. Furthman translate it there?
THE COURT: Did Mr. Grinnell speak and Mr. Furthman translate there, is now the question.
Mr. ZEISLER (To interpreter): Ask that question.
A So much as I know, Mr. Grinnell did not speak at all.
Q Did Mr. Furthman speak to you?
A Yes, he said a few words.
Q Were you informed by Mr. Fyrthman that you were indicted for conspiracy, and that the capiases against you were held back for the present?
A No.
Q Were you informed there th t you were indicted for conspiracy? I will divide my question.
A I cannot assert it; I do not believe it.
Q Did any of those gentlemen that I mentioned, Mr. Stotz, Mr. Schoeninger, or Mr. Nettlehorst, make a speech to you?
A Yes; I think Mr. Schoeninger did.
Q Was Capt. Schaack present at that meeting?
A Yes.
Q And what othere police officers or detectives that you knew were there?
A Mr. Schuetler.
Q Who else?
A I think Mr. Lowenstein.
Q Who else?
A I don't know any more.
Q Now, tell us how many of the indicted conspirators were there, and who they are?
A I think I counted about fourteen or sixteen that were there.
Q What are their names?
A Breitenfeldt, Schrader, the two Hermanns, the two Lehmanns, Clermond, Huber, Huebner, Haageman, I don't know of anyone else.
Q Don't remember anyone besides yourself, of course?
A No; none occurring to me now.
Q Didn't those gentlemen tell you, or somebody there outside of you conspirators, that if you would repeat such statements as you had made before that time on this trial that then you would be provided for with good jobs and money, and so forth?
A No.
Q Do you mean to say that nothing of that sort was said by anybody there?
A It was said there that we should tell the truth, that that would do us nore good in a suit, or the proceedings against us than if we did not.
Mr. Salomon: He said: "We were all indicted."
THE INTERPRETER: O, yes---that we were all indicted: that we should tell the truth; that we were all indicted for conspiracy, and that it would be of more benefit, of greater benefit to us in the proceedings against us if we would tell the truth than if we wold lie---tell the contrary.
Then we were asked who were in work---who had work and who had not. Then I think one of those gentlemen present gave work, provided work for one of those that had none, that were out of work.
Mr. ZEISLER: Is that all that was said?
A It was said that we could get further without such means, without the shedding of blood, and that we could have carried through our movement, our agitation in favor of the eight hour law without bloodshed; that they themselves were in favor of the eight hour day.
Q Who said that?
A He said one of the gentlemen that spoke there---Schoeninger, or whatever his name maybe.
Q Now, what did Mr. Stotz say?
A He did not say anything at all.
Q And Mr. Nettlehorst?
A I do not know.
Q Now, what did Mr. Furthman say there?
A They all said the same thing.
Q How many policemen or detectives were there on that occasion, except Capt. Schaack and Lowenstein and Schuetler, ---besides, I mean, Capt Schaack and Lowenstein?
A I don't know of any more.
Q You mean to say that you do not know their names, or that there were not any more?
A No. I think that there were no more there besides them.
Q Are you acquainted with Mr. Spies?
A No, I am not acquainted; I know him.
Q You mean you know him by sight when you see him?
A Yes. I know him by sight. I am not acquainted with him.
Q Have you ever had a conversation with him?
A No.
Q Do you know Mr. Neebe?
A Yes.
Q I mean did you ever have a conversation with him?
A I spoke a few words with him at one time on Wells Street, when the basket makers had a meeting there. He was standing at the bar, I spoke a few words with him--- the willow ware makers.
Q Did you have a conversation with him at any other time?
A No.
Q How long ago was that that you had that conversation? with Mr. Neebe?
A I think it was before the 4th of May I cannot tell precisely; yes, it was previous.
Q Now, do you know Mr. Schwab, or have you any acquaintance with Mr. Schwab?
A No.
Q Do you know Mr. Parsons?
A No.
Q Are you acquainted with Mr. Fielden?
A No.
Q Have you ever had any conversaion with Mr. Lingg?
A No.
Q Mr. Waller, yuu said you had a conversation with Mr. Neebe once at a meeting of the basket makers?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember what that conversation was about?
A No, not any more.
Q Did he ask you whether you were a basket maker?
A I asked what this meeting was about, and I was told it was a meeting of the basket makers, and then I understood that Mr. Neebe was also a basket maket.
Mr. ZEISLER: I don't know that that is competent.
THE COURT: The question is what conversation you had with Neebe?
A Yes; some one told him that Neebe was also a basket maker. I interpret it correctly.
MR ZEISLER: Of course that is not an answer to the question.
THE COURT: The question is, did you say anything to Neebe, or Neebe say anything to you, and if so what---is the question in fact.
Mr. ZEISLER: Did you hear Mr. Lingg once make a speech, or more than that, did you see him?
A I saw him once speak
Q And heard him too, I suppose?
A Yes, at a meeting; it was at a meeting.
Q But never had a conversation with him?
A No.
Q You said, Mr. Waller, that you opened the meeting on Monday night at Grief's Hall, in Grief's basement, did you?
A I did so when I was presiding. Somebody else had opened the meeting before.
Q No, did you stay there until the meting adjourned?
A Yes, I had to.
Q And you had occasion to see everybody who was in that meeting, had you not?
A Certainly.
Q Was there a meeting of the conspirators and representatives of the prosecution and police and citizens at another hall called Folz's Hall, that you were present at?
A Not that I know of.
Q How was the hall lighted in the basement of Grief's place on the occasion when you held that conspiracy meeting?
A Kerosene lamps.
Q How many?
A I do not know.
Q About how many-?--more than half a dozen?
A No, not more than half a dozen.
Q Do you remember where those lamps were placed?
A No.
RE DIRECT EXAMINATION by Mr. Grinnell.
Q Mr. Waller, do you know Salomon or Zeisler?
A Yes.
Q When did you see them first?
A When I once was at law; had a suit at Bruscke's, in connection with Brusck's strike---and I saw them.
Q Did you see them after the 4th of May, either of them?
A Yes.
Q Wheen and where?
A In their office.
Q And before you were at Capt. Schaack's office?
A Before.
Q Did they ask you anything about the Haymarket massacre?
Objected to as not in rebuttal, and as utterly incompetent and immaterial.
Question withdrawn.
Q Do you remember the time that Salomon and Zeisler, about the time that you were at Capt. Schaack's office the first time, made a petition before one of the judges, for your release on writ of habeas corpus?
A I remember that it was to be done, but I don't know if it was done or not.
Q Did you ask them or send word to them, either of them, to do it for you?
A No.
Q When, how soon after you went to Captain Schaack's office the first time, was it, that you heard that it had been done?
MR. BLACK: I would like my brother Grinnell to tell me what that has to do with this case or this issue?
Mr. ZEISLER: I want to show by this witness---which is a legitimate rebuttal to the cross examination---that these gentlemen without any solicitation on the part of Waller, for their own anxiety in this case, without any solicitation whatever, sought to protect this man for the benefit of the defendants.
Mr. ZEISLER: Because were asked by his friends to interfere.
THE COURT: Well, is there any objection to the question?
MR. BLACK: I have no objection.
Mr. ZEISLER: Well, when you were at that little hall at the corner of Wells Street and Chicago Avenue on that Wednesday, sometime about the 9th of June, --was the date you put to it?
Mr. ZEISLER: I believe so.
Mr. ZEISLER: At that meeting did Adolph Schoeninger preside and explain to you people there in German while you were there,, explain what he had to say to you?
A I don't know whether he was the chairman of the meeting or not.
Q Was he the first speaker?
A Yes, he was the first speaker.
Q Did he not say to you people there then in German that the act of the 4th of May had been a disgrace to the German Nationality?
A Yes.
Q And it was now time in this free country for the laboring man, if he had any rights, to get them by agitation, legitimate agitation and proper legislation?
A Yes.
Q And not by bloodshed and riot?
A Yes.
Q And did he not say to you then, there, that if you told the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that the police of the town would see that yourperson was safe, and that you would be fairly dealt by with the State?
A Yes.
Q You knew Hermann, too, there?
A Yes.
Q Did he not rise in the meeting and wish to ask me a question as to why the news papers had published the fact of his indictment when he understood the news papers were to obtain no information against him?
Objected to; objection overruled and exception by defendants.
A Yes, he said so.
Q Did not Hermann also there when asked by Adolph Schoeninger---when asked by the first speaker; if there were any of them that had work, he said that he had not, and did not Schoeninger say that if he had lost his employment because of the publication of the indictment against him, that he could come to his, Schoeninger's place, and he would give him employment, where he had been years before?
A The question was asked by Mr. Grinnell, who was out of work.
Q Was that Mr. Schoeninger's answer?
A He said then that Hermann should come to him, and he would see that he would have work for him.
Q You know Breitenfeldt?
A Yes.
Q He was there also?
A Yes.
Q He found fault, too, because the newspapers had published the fact of his indictment?
Objected to.
Q Didn't he say then that he understood that the indictment, against him should not appear in the news papers Did he not then say that he understood that the advertisement of the indictment was not to appear in the newspapers?
A That I do not know; he spoke English.
Q Waller, have you been solicited by any of the conspirators within the last ten days to go back upon the story that you originally told, and to meet with them at a place in the City of Chicago near or at Lincoln Park, and there agree upon a story that should be told here, which should be different than you first told?
Objected to as improper, as immaterial, and not rebuttal.
Question withdrawn.
Q Has any defendant, any of the men on trial here, ever asked you to appear at Lincoln Park or elsewhere in the city of Chicago, and confer, talk together, as to what should be your testimony in this case---has any of the defendants--- so as not to have the answer wrong?
A Yes.
Q Which one of the defendants, if any?
A Schrader.
Objected to, and motion to strike out the answer; which objection and motion was sustained and allowed
Q Waller, when did you first tell the story to Capt. Schaack?
A At once when I was arrested, but not all at a time.
Q Did you at any time, within a week or ten day, of the first time that you came down to Schaack's office, repeat your story in the presence of Engel?
A Yes.
RE CROSS EXAMINATION by Mr. Zeisler.
(Counsel for defendants wit draw their objection to any conversations had with either Mr. Salomon or Mr. Zeisler at their office by this witness.)
Q Mr. Waller, were you a member of the Furniture Worker's Union about the time of your arrest?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that the firm of Salomon and Zeisler are the lawyers of the Furniture Worker's Union, No. One?
A Yes.
Q Do you know that it is a rule of that Union to furnish members of that Union with counsel in case they need it?--I mean legal.
THE COURT: You are now getting into a subject which was stopped on your objection, although you since withdrew your objection.
Mr. ZEISLER: No sir, not that, if your Honor please. The fact as to the habeas corpus petition that we had in preparation was not objected to.
THE COURT: Go ahead.
Mr. ZEISLER: Then let Salomon & Zeisler testify. What is the use of proving the rule. The rule don't cut any figure. If they say that that is what they did, at the instance of some of the union, that is an end of it, and let us have it in the record.
Mr. Salomon: - Of his wif. His wife applied to us.
Mr. ZEISLER: Do you know that that is the rule?
A Yes.
Q Do you know, Mr. Waller, whether or not your wife was at our office about the time, at the office of Salomon and Zeisler about the time of your arrest?
A Before the arrest.
Q Do you know that at the time she was at the office of Salomon & Zeisler she supposed you had been arrested?
Objected to; objection sustained.
Q Do you know that she was at our office that day? whether before or after your arrest?
THE COURT: He has already answered that.
Mr. ZEISLER: He said "Not after I had been arrested."
THE COURT: Well, he thought it was before.
Mr. ZEISLER: That is the inference, but we want to bring it out.
Mr. FOSTER: If the court please, the confusion is here. This witness does not admit that when the two detectives took him and carried him down to the station and had communication with Captain Schaack that he was arrested.
THE COURT:
Q While you were in the Chicago Avenue Station did your wife go to Salomon & Zeisler, is what they want to get at?
A No.
Mr. ZEISLER: You say you don't know it?
A No.
I know she was there, but not during the time I was at the Station, but before that.
Q Now, I will ask you, Mr. Waller, whether you did not disappear on the morning of the day when you were brought to the Chicago Avenue Station, and did not show up at your house?
A I was away and came back home the same day.
Q When, the same day did you come?
A In the evening at eight o'clock.