(March 24-25, 1977)
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I just have one other item. {1383} I know the, I know the religious feeling of the young man because he's expressed it to me on both of the occasions that I have been with him. And I would like to know, Norman, whether or not, because of your feelings with reference to the pipe and your understanding of the oath, whether or not you have any wish of any kind, or whether it would have any influence on you in terms of the occasion itself, that you would take your oath on the pipe. Is that something that is very important to you?
NORMAN BROWN: Yeah.
MR. HULTMAN: I had a feeling of this, Your Honor, and that he had indicated a request indirectly of this in his discussion with me. And that's why I wanted to bring it to the attention of the Court at this time.
THE COURT: What is your response to that?
NORMAN BROWN: The pipe?
THE COURT: We don't have a pipe.
THE CLERK: May I make a suggestion in that regard, Your Honor? Rather than to put any undue influence on the inquiry of the man that gave a dissertation to the Court, a gentleman by the name of Mr. Peters regarding the pipe, if he would make a pipe available to me for this instance and I would have it at the bench when court reconvened.
I guess the point I'm trying to make, I think maybe place a little bit undue emphasis if a pipe from the table, {1384} or pipe that's currently in the courtroom that's used. I just throw that out as my suggestion.
MR. CROOKS: I might observe, Ralph, that I think the pipe Mr. Peters has bean carrying is the pipe that's on counsel table.
THE CLERK: I would not refer to one in his possession but I believe there are other pipes in the courtroom. That's my understanding at least.
NORMAN BROWN: I think he wouldn't mind me holding the pipe.
THE COURT: Who would not mind?
NORMAN BROWN: Mr. Peters.
THE CLERK: Would not mind holding that pipe.
THE COURT: No. He said Mr. Peters wouldn't mind if you held the pipe.
NORMAN BROWN: Yeah.
THE COURT: You are talking just about to take the oath, is that what you are talking about?
NORMAN BROWN: Or to say to the pipe, like holding it.
THE COURT: But this is for the purpose of the oath that you are required to take?
NORMAN BROWN: Yeah.
THE COURT: You'll just take it to the pipe?
NORMAN BROWN: Yeah. Just like I'm holding it, but {1385} the pipe would be over here (indicating).
THE COURT: All right.
THE CLERK: You would wish to face the pipe? I will administer an oath to you to the effect that you swear on the holy pipe that you are about to tell the truth in all the proceedings in this case, and that would be the end of my oath.
NORMAN BROWN: Right.
THE COURT: Now, would you prefer to hold it, or would you prefer to hold the pipe when you do that?
NORMAN BROWN: No. I think we should ask him first what he would say then. If he says it's all right for me to hold it, then it's that way.
THE COURT: Well, Ralph, why don't you take care of that?
THE CLERK: Okay, sir.
May I do it right now, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Do it right now.
Does that take care of everything?
MR. HULTMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I will make a brief explanation to the jury.
MR. HULTMAN: Yes, Your Honor.
I have nothing further.
THE COURT: We will adjourn to the courtroom.
{1386}
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom without the presence of the jury:)
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I do have a matter to approach the bench with all counsel before we proceed.
THE COURT: Mr. Hultman, did you state that you have a matter to take up at the bench?
MR. HULTMAN: Yes. Could we approach the bench, Your Honor?
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I wanted to do this before anything did arise. I want to make the position of the Government clear that one, I think the events clearly indicate that the witness that is now to be examined is clearly a hostile witness to the United States. I think that goes without even saying.
The fact, for example, that an interview was granted very readily to counsel of which I am not privy, and the fact that I have had no such interview at the request of the witness himself, would indicate --
THE COURT: You have not interviewed this witness?
MR. HULTMAN: No. I have not. I have, as I have reported on the record, had a conversation with him in which there was no discussion of the events themselves into which the witness will so indicate.
{1387}
MR. TAIKEFF: We understand from our interview of the witness that when Mr. Hultman appeared the witness said he wanted counsel. And Mr. Hultman said, quite properly we wish to note, that if that's what you want, then I must leave until you get counsel; and the witness told us that Mr. Hultman left immediately and in no way acted in any improper manner and paid respect to his request for counsel.
So in fact there is no doubt about what Mr. Hultman is relating in that regard.
MR. HULTMAN: Secondly, Your Honor, I would want the record to reflect as again a basis for the request that I'm making that in chambers a moment ago when this witness came in the presence of the defendant himself, there was a very warm and a firm embrace immediately of the witness in crossing the room of the defendant himself.
MR. LOWE: There wasn't even any contact made.
MR. TAIKEFF: You are talking about in the Judge's chambers?
THE COURT: It was reported to me. I didn't see it.
MR. HULTMAN: Absolutely.
THE COURT: It was reported to me by one of my staff that there was a contact.
MR. HULTMAN: Firm embrace. The minute he walked into the room. I watched it all with my own eyes.
THE COURT: Just a moment.
{1388}
Mr. Suby, would you approach the bench.
(Mr. Suby approached the bench.)
THE COURT: You reported to me that there was some kind of a contact between the defendant and this next witness at the time they both came into chambers. Would you just state for the record the contact that you observed. You did not tell me, I don't know what the nature of it was.
MR. SUBY: That is correct, Your Honor. At the time the witness came in the room he approached the defendant, they embraced, shook hands. There was an exchange of words, lasted approximately five seconds or eight seconds or so, and they parted. And that was the extent of it.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. LOWE: May I ask something, because I just want to be sure of the time sequence, if we are talking about the same time frame. Was this about when we went to leave?
MR. HULTMAN: No. When the witness came in. The minute the witness came in.
MR. LOWE: The first time I saw the witness was when we were arising from the courtroom to go to the room. Was this an earlier time when he came into chambers?
MR. HULTMAN: No. It was the only -- the defendant was there.
MR. TAIKEFF: I never saw the witness. I don't dispute {1389} what Mr. Suby saw. I was just curious for my own place.
MR. HULTMAN: Plus the fact that there is an immunity matter to start with. There's no question this individual was there as a witness to participate in certain events. And for all of these reasons, Your Honor, I think that I ought to be given a measure of latitude under those circumstances that normally would not be the case.
He is without any question a hostile witness if there ever was one.
MR. TAIKEFF: I would say this, Your Honor, and if he puts a question to him and he doesn't get any answers which he reasonably expects, and I think elaborate proceedings are not at the sidebar, because Mr. Hultman will, I'm sure, act appropriately in that regard, then I think in light of our interview the content of which we know, but Mr. Hultman doesn't know, it would be inappropriate for me to resist his application.
So if Mr. Hultman moves in that direction after he attempts to get certain answers which he thinks he's entitled to, I think we can go right to it and get the testimony in.
MR. LOWE: Your Honor, may I state for the record, because I don't want the Court to think that I misstated something factually, the Clerk has just advised me that what I saw was not an embrace or a touching, it was when we were getting up and we were already walking towards the door. And {1390} the Clerk, Mr. Hanson, advises that I am correct that there was no touching there. That the touching that he observed and apparently Mr. Suby observed was while Mr. Peltier was still seated.
MR. HULTMAN: Yes. He was seated.
MR. LOWE: And I was facing the Court, and I simply didn't see that. And that's why I reported it, and I was astounded that there was any touching.
MR. HULTMAN: Oh, no, John, he was seated at the couch, and the witness came in and embraced.
MR. LOWE: There was no contact made at that time.
MR. TAIKEFF: All right. Essentially we've agreed with Mr. Hultman, subject to his effort on one critical issue, to get an answer which he is dissatisfied with, and I think we would consent to him taking that position with the witness.
MR. HULTMAN: My point is without any question, and I'm going to have to do some leading that normally, for example, I would never have to do with a witness, other than of this kind and nature. I think counsel understands that.
MR. TAIKEFF: I don't think that you will go beyond proper limits. We'll try to make only objections which are appropriate under these special circumstances.
MR. HULTMAN: Very good. Thank you.
{1391}
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom:)
THE COURT: The jury may be brought in.
(Whereupon, at 3:13 o'clock, p.m., the jury returned to the courtroom; and the following further proceedings were had in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: I have two bits of information to give to the jury at this time. One is that, due to a personal appointment of one of the jurors, the Court will recess this afternoon for the day at 4:30; and the second point of information is that the next witness to be called will take the oath in a little different form than that which is usually administered.
The law as expressed by the Rule states that before testifying every witness shall be required to declare that he will testify truthfully by oath or affirmation administered in a form calculated to awaken his conscience and impresses his mind with his duty to do so.
The next witness, because of his religion, has requested that he be permitted to take his oath on the pipe, and that permission has been granted.
The Government may proceed.
MR. HULTMAN: The Government calls Norman Brown, your Honor.
THE CLERK: Mr. Brown, you do swear on the sacred {1392} pipe that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE CLERK: Would you be seated, sir?
NORMAN BROWN,
being first duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION by MR. HULTMAN:
Q Would you state to the jury your name, please?
A. Norman Brown.
Q. And where do you live, Mr. Brown?
A. Minifarms, Arizona.
Q. And about how long have you lived in Minifarms, Arizona?
A. All my life.
Q. Do you have some brothers and sisters?
A. Right.
Q. And would you tell the jury how many brothers and sisters you have?
A. Six brothers and three sisters.
Q. Mr. Brown, I have not discussed the facts of this event with you since the time in open court, have I?
A. No.
Q. What is your birth date?
A. March 17th, 1960.
Q. So you were just last week 17, is that right?
{1393}
A. Right.
Q. And how old would you have been on the 26th of June, 1975, two years ago?
A. 15.
Q. How far in school have you gone?
A. Sophomore.
Q. Did you ever have an occasion during the year, 1975, to go from your home at Minifarms to some other place to attend any meeting of any kind?
A. Yes.
Q. Excuse me?
A. Spiritual conference in Farmington, New Mexico.
Q. And would you explain to the jury about when this was?
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember who it was that you met there and saw there?
A. Who? What do you mean?
Q. Any persons that you knew or recognized?
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you tell the jury who it was that you recall specifically that you met there?
A. Leonard.
Q. Now, when you refer to "Leonard", would you tell the jury what his full name is?
A. Leonard Peltier.
{1394}
Q. And is he in the courtroom here today?
A. Right.
Q. And would you tell the jury where he is seated here in the courtroom?
A. He is seated over there.
MR. TAIKEFF: The identification is conceded, your Honor.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Had you known Mr. Peltier before?
A. Yes.
Q. And approximately how long had you known him?
A. About four years then.
Q. And where was it, if you recall, approximately four years before that you had met Mr. Peltier?
A. Crow Dog sundance.
Q. Was that a religious ceremony that you attended?
A. Right.
Q. And how old would you have been at that time?
A. 13.
Q. And how did you go to the ceremonial, Crow Dog's, on that occasion?
A. What do mean?
Q. Did you go by yourself or did you go with somebody?
A. Yes.
Q. You went by yourself?
{1395}
A. Yes. You mean four years ago?
Q. Right.
A. Yes.
Q. When was the next occasion you were with Mr. Peltier?
A. In Farmington.
Q. And that's the time which we are now discussing, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Who else that you had known before did you see in Farmington?
A. Dino and Joe.
Q. So the jury will know, who is Dino?
A. Butler.
Q. And what was the next name that you used?
A. Joe Stuntz.
Q. Joe Stuntz?
A. Yes.
Q. How long had you known Dino?
A. About four years too.
Q. And where, Norman, did you meet Dino?
A. The trials in Minneapolis on Banks and Means.
Q. And about how old were you at that time?
A. 13.
Q. Was the third person that you just mentioned named Bob, is that correct? I didn't quite hear. Was it Bob that you {1396} said?
A. No.
Q. Who was the third person?
A. Joe.
Q. Joe, all right.
A. Yes.
Q. Who is Joe?
A. Stuntz.
Q. And how long had you known Joe Stuntz?
A. Four years.
Q. And where did you first meet Joe?
A. Sundance too.
Q. And was that at Crow Dog's also?
A. Right.
Q. And had you known Joe then after meeting him at the sundance at Crow Dog's?
A. Yes.
Q. About how many times had you been with Joe?
A. What do you mean?
Q. About how many times or occasions had you been with Joe after that?
A. Just in Farmington.
Q. All right. Did you consider Joe to be a very close friend of yours?
A. Right.
{1397}
Q. Is he a brother of yours?
A. Right.
Q. Who else did you meet at Farmington that you had known before?
A. Norman Charles.
Q. Norman Charles?
A. Yes.
Q. And where had you met Norman Charles before?
A. Sundance, Crow Dog's.
Q. And had you had occasions to see him after that?
A. Well, just in Farmington.
Q. The next time was in Farmington. Who else did you see in Farmington that you had met before?
A. That's all.
Q. Now, did you meet some other people for the first time that you continued to know after being in Farmington?
A. What?
Q. Did you meet some new people that you continued to know after Farmington?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you tell the jury who those people were?
A. Lynn.
Q. And when you say "Lynn", do you know any additional name other than Lynn?
A. No.
{1398}
Q. All right.
A. And Jean.
Q. And do you know the person "Jean" by any other name?
A. Bordeau.
Q. How old was Lynn at the time you met her there to the best of your knowledge?
A. Oh, about 17, 18.
Q. And how old was Lynn?
A. I just said that.
Q. Who was the other person that you referred to?
A. Jean.
Q. How old is Jean?
A. I don't know. I can't --
Q. (Interrupting) Was she a young person?
A. Right.
Q. A young lady?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Who else did you meet at that time that you continued to be with for some period of time?
A. Wish.
Q. And does Wish have another name?
A. Yeah, Wilford Draper.
Q. Wilford Draper. You know him by "Wish", is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that what his friends knew him by?
{1399}
A. Right.
Q. All right. Who else?
A. Mike Anderson.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Norman Charles.
Q. Norman Charles?
A. That's all. Bob Robideau.
Q. Bob Robideau. Had you known Bob before?
A. No.
Q. The first time you met Bob Robideau?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Would you tell the jury -- did you later leave Farmington and go somewhere?
A. Yeah, went to Oglala, South Dakota.
Q. And do you remember about what time of the year, 1975, that was, what month approximately?
A. About June.
Q. Sometime in June?
A. May.
Q. 1975?
A. Yeah, about the second week in June.
Q. Now, would you tell the jury who you left with -- did you leave with any other persons?
A. Yeah, I left with all the people I named.
Q. You left with the people that you have just named in {1400} response to my questions?
A. Right.
Q. All right, and would you tell the jury how you went, did you go in an automobile -- or automobile?
A. Yeah, pickup with a camper on it.
Q. All right, and who did that belong to?
A. The pickup?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know.
Q. All right.
A. Just got a ride.
Q. Who went in the pickup with the camper, who were the persons?
A. Joe and Leonard.
Q. Was there anyone other than Joe and Leonard that went in the pickup?
A. No, I can't remember.
Q. Who did you go with -- did you go in that car?
A. Yeah, I went in the pickup, yeah.
Q. So you went with Joe and Leonard?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the other people then basically went in a second car, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember what kind of a car that was or a {1401} description of that car?
A. Well, it was an old car. It was a green car.
Q. Now, where was it that -- did you go to a particular place once you got to South Dakota?
A. Oglala, South Dakota.
Q. And where in Oglala or in the vicinity did you go specifically?
A. Jumping Bull, the ranch.
Q. And had you ever been to the Jumping Bull ranch before?
A. No.
Q. Had you met the Jumping Bulls before?
A. No.
Q. What was it that you did once you got to Jumping Bulls?
A. Got some tents and set up a place where we could stay.
Q. And did the others that you have mentioned also participate and help you, and did you help them?
A. Right.
Q. I don't know whether I asked you specifically about Mike. Had you known Mike for quite some time?
A. Yeah.
Q. How long about -- when did you first meet or know Mike?
A. About seven years ago, eight years ago.
Q. And that's Mike Anderson?
A. Right.
Q. That I am referring to and you are responding to, right?
{1402}
A. Right.
Q. Where was it that you first met Mike Anderson?
A. I can't remember where, but I met him a long time ago.
Q. Would you know just generally where, for example, in what state?
A. Oh, yeah, Arizona.
Q. All right, and does he come from the same tribe or nation that you do?
A. Right.
Q. And do any of the others that you have mentioned come from the same tribe or nation?
A. Right.
Q. And which ones or ones would that be?
A. Wish and Mike. Wish, be just Wish and Mike.
Q. Wish, Mike and you come from that nation then?
A. Right.
Q. All right. What was the reason for setting up a camp at Crow Dog's?
A. Crow Dog's?
Q. I am sorry, at Jumping Bull's, I am sorry.
A. We had no other place to stay, no room in the houses, and I don't know, just put up some tents.
Q. I want you to turn around and look for a moment or two at what has been marked and entered as an exhibit in this case, Government's Exhibit No. 71; and ask you whether or not you {1403} recognize the general scene that's portrayed in that Government exhibit?
A. What?
Q. Have you previously seen a map of this kind and nature before, Norman?
A. Yeah, right.
Q. Now, I want you to look at it, and then I want to ask you whether or not you understand the area, the place that that represents?
A. Right.
Q. And would you tell the jury what it is or where it is?
A. It is right up there (indicating) where it says "tents".
Q. Is this generally a map of the Jumping Bull ranch that you talked about a minute ago?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right.
{1404}
Q. And on that map can you show the jury where it was that you set up the tents that you have mentioned? There is a pointer and maybe that mxght be of a little help and assistance.
Would you point out to the members of the jury where the tents were set up.
A. (Indicating.)
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness pointed out the area on Government's Exhibit 71 which is portrayed there as "Tents."
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) How many tents were set up at that time Norman?
A. There was five tents.
Q. Is that an approximation on your part?
A. No. About six. No. Five. I don't know. Five or six.
Q. Would you tell the jury starting with yourself who it was that lived in a particular tent. It was the same people, was it not, that came, that you went on the highway with from Farmington to live in the tent area generally speaking?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell the jury, first of all, what tent you lived in and with whom, if anyone?
A. It was that box tent.
Q. Did anyone stay with you in the box tent or you with them?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you tell the jury who those people were.
{1405}
A. I can't remember.
Q. Maybe if we talk about some of the others for a minute it might help.
Was Wish in the tent area when you first set up the tents?
A. Yeah.
Q. And did he stay there in the tent area itself all the time you were there?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. Did Wish leave at some time, as far as being right in the tent area that we're now talking about, did he go sleep some other place?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember where that was?
A. That was around Jumping Bull's place there at the housing.
Q. And was that a tent in which he set up and he slept by himself, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know why Wish left the tent area and set up a tent of his own out by Jumping Bull's house?
A. At that time I didn't but now I do
Q. You know from your own knowledge?
A. From reading the papers now I know.
Q. Well, I don't want you to respond to anything you may have {1406} read.
A. You mean then?
Q. Yes.
A. No, I didn't.
Q. All right.
A. No.
Q. Would you tell the jury a bit or two about Wish Draper. Was he a person who handled guns?
A. No.
Q. What kind of a person is Wish Draper, as you've known him?
A. He's quiet and stays to himself. That's about all.
Q. Now do you remember who stayed in any other tents, for example, let's talk about Dino for just a moment. In what tent and with whom did Dino stay down in the tent area?
A. Stayed in his teepee.
Q. In a teepee. Was there anybody that stayed with him?
A. Yeah. Neelock.
Q. Now were there any other tents that you recall that certain individuals stayed in?
A. There is a little pup tent.
Q. Was it an orange pup tent?
A. Yeah. It was orange. It was Mike and Jimmy stayed there.
Q. All right. Mike and Jimmy stayed in the orange pup tent. Who is Jimmy? Do you know him by another name, additional name?
{1407}
A. Jimmy Zimmerman.
Q. Jimmy Zimmerman.
A. nd how old at that time was Jimmy Zimmerman at the time we're talking about in 1975?
A. 11, 12.
Q. Approximately 11 or 12 years old?
A. Right.
Q. Was he close to the person he stayed with?
A. Yeah.
Q. Does this help in any way for you to remember who it was that you stayed with?
A. In the green tent. In the orange tent, too, yeah.
Q. Who stayed in that tent?
A. Which tent?
Q. In the orange tent we're still talking about. Did anybody else stay in the orange tent?
A. Yeah. Mike and Jimmy.
Q. Was there anybody else other than Mike and Little Jimmy?
A. There was me. You know, that's, I slept where, I don't know just, I stayed with Jim some nights and some nights I'd stay in another tent. Like that.
Q. All right. Did Leonard live down in the tent area?
A. No.
{1408}
Q. Where did he stay?
A. In one of the houses up here.
Q. Do you remember which one of the houses up there? Maybe I could ask you with a pointer to show the jury by each house, Norman, would you start here on this side and tell the jury and you point out the first house on the right-hand side. Do you remember, there is a green house on the right-hand side?
A. Yeah.
Q. Tell the jury who it was that lived in the green house.
A. Ivis and Angie Long Visitor.
Q. Do you remember what the next house over was then?
A. Yeah. It was --
Q. Ttaybe there was a shed of some kind in between.
A. Yeah. There was a shed.
Q. Did anybody live in the shed?
A. No.
The next house is Jumping Bull's live there.
Q. Do you remember what color a house that was?
A. It was white.
Q. What kind of white, was that sort of the largest house of all of them in the area?
A. Yeah.
Q. That's where Mr. and Mrs. Jumping Bull lived, is that right?
{1409}
A. Yeah.
Q. And was there another house then beyond where the Jumping Bulls lived?
A. Yeah. Was a log house.
Q. And would you point that house out to the jury so that the jury can see.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. And who was it that lived there?
A. Dennis Banks.
Q. Now is there another house then or a building of some kind still beyond the log house? Is there a house of some kind or a building over here?
A. Right.
Q. Was there anybody that lived in that place?
A. No.
Q. What was that? Do you know what that was, that building, at all?
A. No.
Q. Now down here to the, where I am now pointing is also on Government's Exhibit 71, a marking and some letters that refer to a residence. Do you remember who lived there?
A. I knew it was Dusty lived there.
Q. Was Dusty related in any way to anybody that you knew?
A. Yeah. Jumping Bulls.
Q. And was there a lady that, did his wife live in that {1410} residence, too?
A. His wife?
Q. Did he have a wife, Dusty?
A. No.
Q. Was there anybody else that lived there in that residence besides Dusty?
A. Yeah. But I don't know the names. I saw the people around there.
Q. Do you know how many people live there besides Dusty?
A. About three other people I guess.
Q. Now where was it that Leonard lived then up in the houses?
A. I think it was that log cabin.
Q. He lived in the log cabin.
Now what was it that you did during the time up until the 26th of June, the day when some events happened? What did you do during that period of time generally from day to day and during the weeks that you were there? What did you do?
A. Chopped wood, hauled water and pulled security.
Q. Who was it that gave you any instructions as to pulling security?
A. Well, Leonard asked me if I wanted to pull security. He didn't tell me or nothing, he said, "Do you want to," and I said, "Yeah. I'll pull security."
Q. Now what would you do when you pulled security?
A. I just walked around the camp and looked out for the roads, {1411} watched the cars and see how everybody is. I'd watch the camp, you know.
Q. Were you armed?
A. Yeah. And what kind of an arm would you take on those occasions?
A. .22.
Q. And did you take ammunition?
A. Yeah.
Q. What did you do at other times that you weren't involved in security? What did you do other times?
A. Hauled water.
Q. And chopped wood, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. You've named the same people who came from Farmington, or you came from Farmington with. Was there anybody else during the time that you lived in the tent area that lived in the tent area for any period of time other than the ones that you've mentioned?
A. No. Just --
Q. IF there was you don't recall, is that a fair answer?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. There wasn't anybody else that lived there for any extended period of time, is that right, that you know?
A. No.
Q. What would the others do that, let's talk about the men {1412} for a little while, the men and the boys. What would the boys do other than security during the time that you were there? How would you spend your time?
A. What?
Q. How did you spend your time, the boys, the young men that you have referred to?
A. Like set up camp, cut wood for the tents and, you know, haul water for the camp.
Q. What did the older men do during this period of time, Leonard and Dino and Bob?
A. They were up there in this housing. I don't know what they done. I mean, what they did.
Q. Were you at various times in and out of the houses there on Jumping Bull's ranch?
A. Yeah.
Q. Were you ever in the log house?
A. Right.
Q. Tell us what it was that you saw on occasions when you were in the log house.
A. .30.30.
Q. When you refer to .30.3O, would you explain to me and to the jury what it is that you're referring to.
A. Well, it's a rifle. There is a lever on the bottom that you move back and forth. You cock it.
{1413}
Q. Now is this description you're now giving something that you saw and you observed and you know from your having seen it or something that somebody has told you?
A. What?
Q. I'm simply asking you whether or not an FBI agent or myself has told you that some gun that you saw at that time was a .30.30.
A. No.
Q. IT's because --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- you yourself have that knowledge, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And you had it back at that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you see any other weapons in the log house?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you tell the jury what other weapons as you knew them and you observed them and not what somebody else may or may not have told you. What other weapons did you see in the log house during the time that you were there?
A. There was one that looked like an M-16.
Q. Now you say it was one that looked like an M-16. Did I ever tell you that a weapon of any kind looked like an M-16?
A. No.
Q. Tell the jury how it is that you are saying to them in {1414} response to my question that a weapon you saw in the log house while you were there looked like an M-16. Where did you first hear of an M-16?
A. Radio. You know, news, pictures.
Q. So that when you use the word "M-16," this is something that you knew back at the time you saw the weapon, is that right, from news or TV or whatever it is?
A. Yeah.
Q. And it isn't because anybody from the FBI or the United States attorney it was an M-16?
A. No.
Q. Now do you know whether or not it was an M-16?
A. No.
Q. Would you explain to the jury specifically what the object, the weapon looked like. Describe it to the jury for them, if you can. What color was it, for example?
A. Dark color.
Q. And do you remember anything else about it?
A. Had a handle on the top.
Q. Do you remember anything else about it?
A. Clip on the bottom.
Q. Do you remember anything else about it?
A. That's all.
Q. Did you see that weapon or a weapon of that kind on more than one occasion while you were there at Jumping {1415} Bull's? Did you see it more than just the time in the log house?
A. Yeah. I saw it at that time.
Q. Who did you ever see with that weapon?
A. You mean who did I see? Leonard.
Q. With Leonard?
A. Yeah.
Q. I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 34AA and ask you, Norman, whether or not the weapon that you have just been describing is the one which is of a general type and looks and description of the kind that you just told the jury. Was the weapon that you have been describing to the jury one that looked like this?
A. Yeah. Right.
Q. So that I might be very clear and not mislead you or in any way --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- ask you something that you don't understand, you understand and know the difference between, do you not, something that a weapon that looks like one different from one you know exactly is the one, is that right? Do you understand there is a difference between that?
A. I don't understand you.
Q. All right.
You don't know whether or not this weapon here is the {1416} one that you saw up there at all, isn't that right?
A. Right.
Q. It's just one that looked like it?
A. Yeah. It looked like it.
Q. Did you see any other guns in the log house?
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. Did you see any other guns in any of the other houses during this time, short time that you lived there in June?
A. No. Not in any of the houses.
Q. Did you see any guns in the tent area?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you explain to the jury what guns you saw in the tent area during the time that you lived there.
A. Well, I saw three rifles inside the tent where we kept our food and, you know, stuff like that.
Q. And would you explain to the jury, let's take them just one at a time and I want to ask you want it is you remember about each one of them in terms of telling the jury to the best of your remembrance what they looked like.
A. It's a rifle.
Q. What do you remember about a rifle?
A. Bolt action.
Q. It was a bolt action?
A. Right.
Q. Do you know the caliber of weapon?
{1417}
A. No.
Q. Do you know the difference between a .30.30 and a .22 for example?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you know at that time the difference between a .22 and a .30.30?
A. You mean did I know if that was one or not?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know. I just saw it. No. I don't think so, you know. If I saw it I'd know what it was.
Q. But you don't recall now specifically what it was?
A. Yeah.
Q. But it was a rifle, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Now what was the second weapon that you recall having seen there in one of the tents? The food tent I believe, as you described ft, right?
A. Yeah. Another rifle.
Q. And would you describe to the jury what that rifle looked like.
A. Well, it was the same as the other one. Bolt action.
Q. Now would you describe to the jury what bolt action means. Is this something you're describing you knew at that time?
A. Right.
{1418}
Q. Tell us what it is you mean by bolt action, that you remember a weapon that was bolt action.
A. Well, it moved from the side like this, you know (indicating). I don't know how to explain it, you know.
Q. Well, is it one that you have to pull the bolts back?
A. Yeah. Pull it back; yeah.
Q. In order to fire it again, is that right?
A. Yeah. That's right.
Q. So there was a bolt action rifle there?
A. Yeah.
Q. That's the second one?
A. Yeah.
Q. What was the third one that you recall?
A. It was like the other two.
Q. It was like the other two?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember seeing any other weapons of any kind until the day of the 26th in the tent area?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember having any training or any sessions with people that showed you how to use a weapon of any kind while you were there in the tent area at Jumping Bull's?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you explain to the jury who was there at that time.
A. Me and Norman Charles.
{1419}
Q. Did you ever while you were there fire the black weapon that I showed you a little while ago that you referred to as looking like an M-16?
A. No.
Q. I want to take you now to the evening of the, afternoon or evening of the 25th of June. Do you remember that day what you were doing, what you did that day or that evening?
A. That night; yeah.
Q. Yes.
A. Pulled security that night. June 26.
Q. And did you talk to anybody before you pulled security?
A. Yeah. It was Wish. I think it was Wish. Wish or Mike. One of them.
Q. Do you remember any event of any kind during that period of time?
A. I think it was Wish, he told me that, it was Mike, it was one of them. He told me that, it was either Wish or Mike, that they were hitchhiking to Oglala and he got picked up by FBI and took him to Pine Ridge. They questioned him and they said somehow a clip being taken away from Norman Charles and that's what he told me. And then they brought him back.
Q. Do you remember talking to Norman at all that evening?
A. Yeah. I think so. Yeah.
Q. Did he indicate anything or do you recall anything about a possible conversation that you might have had with Norman {1420} that night about the events that you're talking about?
A. Yeah. He told me that he took the clip from him. The clip (indicating).
Q. Did he indicate what kind of a clip it was? I notice you're forming your hands. Was that as you remember what the clip looked like?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you indicate to the jury the general shape of the clip that you remember being talked about at that time?
A. About this big (indicating).
Q. Now you didn't see the clip at that time, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. That's as you best recalled the discussion concerning it, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. You pulled security that night you said. Were you on security all night?
A. Yeah. From about 8:00 to 10:00. It was, I think it was mostly the night, most of the night.
Q. And would you tell the jury what specifically you did that night during the time that you pulled security? Tell us where you went and what you did.
A. Well, like just walked around camp and looked, you know. Just walked around and see how everything was because, reason why we had security was because we were afraid of the goons.
{1421}
Q. Had you ever seen a goon?
A. Yeah.
Q. When did you see a goon?
A. We passed one and saw two cars and they were inside the cars, two cars and the goons.
Q. Is that the only time you saw a goon?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you ever see a goon down at Jumping Bull's property at all?
A. No. You mean before June 26th?
Q. Yes. That's what I'm referring to.
A. No.
Q. At the times that you were at, who was it that lived in the green house, the first house that you referred to as the green house? Do you remember who lived there during hat period of time?
A. Ivis and Angie Long Visitor.
Q. Were you in and out of there, that house, during the time that you were there in June?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you ever see any goons at any time when you were there?
A. No.
Q. Were you in and out of Jumping Bull's house while you were there?
A. Yeah. Just, sometimes. Take the water, chop wood for him.
{1422}
Q. Did other people come and go at times that you saw at the Jumping Bull's?
A. Yeah. Some people came, some left.
Q. Did you ever see any goons at Jumping Bull's?
A. No.
Q. From what you've already testified you had been in the log house on occasions, is that right?
A. Yeah. Log house.
Q. Did you ever see any goons when you were at the log house?
A. No.
Q. When you were over at, I don't recall the name of the gentleman that you referred to over at this residence. What was his name again you referred to?
A. Dusty.
Q. Dusty. At the times you were over at the house where Dusty lived, did you ever see any goons over there?
A. No.
Q. So is it fair for me, did you ever see any goons down in the tent area?
A. No.
Q. Is it fair for me to conclude, Norman, that you never saw up to the 26th, that's the time you said to me a minute ago, any goons at all in the Jumping Bull property area?
A. No.
Q. And the only time you saw a goon was this one time you {1423} a goon was this one time you referred to?
A. Yeah. Goons.
Q. Now what did you do in the morning when you got up in the morning on the 26th of June, 1975?
A. I got up and Jim was up and Jean and Lynn were up and Jimmy was there, too. The girls, Jean and Lynn were cooking. Ready to have, I think it was lunch or breakfast. I don't know what time it was.
Q. Would you tell the jury so that they might know, how many girls or women were in the camp?
A. There was three.
Q. There were three. And would you for the jury's sake tell the jury again who those three were.
A. Lynn and Neelock and Jean.
{1424}
Q. All right. Would you tell the jury approximately how old Lynn was?
A. About seventeen, eighteen.
Q. And how old approximately was Neelock?
A. About twenty.
Q. About twenty. And who was the third?
A. Jean?
Q. Well, you said Lynn, you said Neelock.
A. And Jean.
Q. And Jean, and how old was Jean about?
A. I guess about fifteen, sixteen. Fifteen or sixteen.
Q. Fifteen or sixteen. All right.
Those were the three women or girls that lived in the tent area and they were there that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Those are the three you were referring to; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Leonard there that morning?
A. No.
Q. Did you see Leonard that morning in the tent area at any time?
A. No. Not when I got up, no.
Q. Again, I am going to ask you, did you see Leonard in the tent area at any time that morning, in the morning now I'm talking about?
{1425}
A. You mean -- I can't remember. I think -- I don't know. I can't remember.
Q. All right.
A. I might have, I might have seen him, but I can't remember.
Q. All right. Your best and most honest, that you can't remember; is that right?
A. No, I can't.
Q. You do remember other people specifically, though?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And he didn't live in the tent area, did he, as you said before. He lived up in the log house?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Did you see any of the fellows there at any time that morning? Do you remember when you first got up who the fellows were if any that you saw there?
A. Just Joe and Jimmy.
Q. And by "Joe," you are referring to Joe Stuntz?
A. Right.
Q. And Jimmy, Little Jimmy as you referred to?
A. Yeah, Little Jimmy.
Q. Now, I'm going to, was there any, did you do anything different that morning from what you had done any other morning? Anything unusual or different?
A. We just, just like regular mornings. Like we just got up like we do every day.
{1426}
Q. A11 right. Now, at a time during that day sometime did you hear some firing of some kind?
A. Yeah. I got up and Jean and Lynn were cooking and I was talking to Joe for a while on top of that green car, on the hood sitting there talking.
A. nd we heard some shots, about eighteen, eighteen, about twenty shots. And Joe said, "Let's go see, let's go see where the shooting is coming from." So we ran up to a little hill, and it was coming in the direction of the houses.
So he said, "Let's go run back and get the guns," he said. So we were running back and then he said, "There's a gun in the car there, that green car." So I picked it up. Then I went there. I told Dino. Dino come running out and we told him that there was shooting up there. And Bob came. Then we met right outside of camp. Then we told the sisters, we told them, you know, don't you run out of here because there's shooting going on.
A. t that time then we all started running up together. Then we split up, me and Joe went up to that housing and, you know, Bob went around this way (indicating), toward where that road is. That's what we done.
Q. All right. Now would you take the pointer and point out to me, or would you tell the jury first where it was that you heard the shooting, where was it that you heard the shooting?
A. Right over here (indicating).
{1427}
Q. All right. In the general area you are making a circle of some kind; is that right?
A. Yeah. Where the shooting was coming from.
Q. All right. Now, you didn't see the shooting; is that right, at that time?
A. No.
Q. You heard shooting?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And you say you thought it was about twenty shots, is that --
A. Yeah.
Q. -- a fair characterization?
A. Right.
Q. Would you describe to the jury what the shooting sounded like since you couldn't see it, from the first shot that you heard through the approximately twenty? Would you describe to the jury what it sounded like to you or how it happened, the twenty shots approximately? Would you describe to them what it was you heard.
A. I didn't hear just twenty shots like that.
Q. That's why I want you to explain how you did hear them, Norman.
A. Well, I don't know. Just shooting, just -- I heard about five go at one time.
Q. You heard about five at the first; is that right?
{1428}
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you tell us, tell the jury what it sounded like, those five.
A. Not the first, but I heard it, I heard those five shots. I heard, first there was a shot, then a couple shots, and the five shots. Then a couple shots again, and then shots, and just taking turns like shooting. Just, just one right after another shots.
Q. All right. And when you stated then that you separated, and I understand that you indicated that two of you at some point went one direction and two went another direction; is that right?
A. (No response.)
Q. Would you show me first of all, and show the jury where it was that you first went when you heard the first shots. You said that you left the tent area and you went somewhere. Would you start at the tent area and kind of draw where it was that you went.
A. Right over here to this place (indicating).
Q. And when you are marking that area, let me mark it with a pen so that we will, although I'm not quite that tall, so that's going to be a little bit impossible for me, would you point it out again.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. Would it be approximately in the area of the word "Plateau" {1429} that --
A. Yeah.
Q. This word right here (indicating)? It would be in that general area; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness was pointing out an area where there is the word "Plateau" and it's the only word "Plateau" in the upper right-hand corner, or right-hand quarter of Governments Exhibit No. 71.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, is that spot out in the open, or is that in the trees?
A. It's in the open.
Q. It's out in the open. As you look at Government's Exhibit 71, Norman, are the areas that show no little vegetation or little circles, is that basically an open area where there is no trees or bushes of any sights to where you can see literally everything?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, was that an area where you could see generally most of the area where there are no bushes on this map here?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, tell us when you got there what did you do, and what did you see if anything when you got up to the point where you {1430} said you ran up to in the general area of the word "Plateau". Can you see good from there?
A. Yeah.
Q. What could you see from there?
A. You mean me see from here (indicating)?
Q. No. When you ran up to the plateau, right.
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you have any gun with you at that time?
A. No. Ran through here, then they were shooting us from --
Q. And where did you gather the shooting was coming from then?
A. From around -- the sound was coming from here (indicating).
Q. But did you see any specific shooting?
A. No.
Q. Still did not see any?
A. No.
Q. Did you observe any people at that very time?
A. No.
Q. All right. So what did you then do next?
A. We ran back. Joe told me to get a gun inside of the green ar.
Q. All right. So you testified earlier there were guns in he tent, in the supply tent, or the food tent; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, at this time the guns, or at least some guns are not {1431} in the tent, they're in a car, a green car; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, had you ever seen that green car before?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where did you first see it, remember seeing that green car?
A. Farmington.
Q. Is that one of the cars you came back in?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know who the green car belonged to at this time? The time we're now talking about?
A. No. Just some people just drove it, you know.
Q. All right. Did you ever, who do you remember seeing driving it?
A. The green car?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't think anybody, because I mean --
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, because the witness is turned, we can't hear. Could the microphone be put near him.
I don't mind that he's turned, but I'd like to hear the answer.
MR. HULTMAN: I don't think he's given an answer yet, Counsel.
A. I can't remember.
MR. HULTMAN: The answer is he can't remember.
{1432}
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Did you in fact at that time then pursuant to what you did at that time secure a weapon of some kind?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where did you get it?
A. From that green car there.
Q. All right. And would you describe to the jury where was the green car in relationship to the tents.
A. It was right there (indicating).
Q. All right. About where there is an object at the present time; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. An object that indicates green car; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And have you ever seen this map here with any of these objects in front of it before in the courtroom here today?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you see one that was similar at sometime in the past?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen one in the last seven, eight -- six, seven, eight months at all?
A. Yeah. It was Cedar Rapids.
Q. You haven't seen any since then; is that right?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now was there any other weapons in the green {1433} car?
A. No.
Q. And would you describe to the jury the weapon that you got from the green car.
A. It was a 22.
Q. Well, now did you know at that time that it was a 22?
A. Yeah.
Q. Then it is not something that somebody told you since, or put any words in your mouth or anything?
A. No.
Q. All right. So is it fair for me to conclude, Norman, that at the time we're talking about that you had a general knowledge of weapons of one kind or another?
A. Yeah. Just kind of like most everybody has.
Q. All right. Now, would you describe that 22 as you've called it to the jury. Tell them what you remember about it.
A. It was bolt action. It was a single shot.
Q. And had you ever seen it before?
A. No.
Q. All right. Do you remember anything else about that particular gun on that particular day by way of anything other than it being a 22? Do you remember anything about the weapon that you would remember?
A. You mean the one I took?
Q. Yes.
{1434}
A. It was a single shot.
Q. Single shot. Do you remember anything else about that --
A. Yeah. It had little rounds.
Q. Litie what?
A. Rounds.
Q. Little rounds?
A. Yeah.
Q. It fired small rounds?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Do you remember anything else about that particular weapon, anything that you would remember that weapon by as being different from some other 22?
A. You mean --
Q. Well, was there anything about any of the parts of it that you would remember?
A. Yeah. It was a single shot.
Q. It was a single shot, all right.
A. nything else that you remember?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, I'm going to -- the FBI or nobody told you those at any time, those are things you remember, right?
A. Right.
Q. Those are the things that you are talking about are the things that you remember from that day, all right.
I'm going to show you what has been marked as Govern- {1435}ment Exhibit 41-A, and I want to ask you whether or not in looking at 41-A is there anything about this weapon, does it generally resemble the weapon that you are talking about?
A. Yeah. I think that's the one.
Q. You think that it's the one?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, in saying that you think it's the one, that doesn't mean that you know exactly this is the one; is that right? Is that fair for me to conclude?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, what is it that makes you think that it's the one?
A. Well --
Q. And I'll let you look at it. I don't mean in any way to be -- it's inoperative.
A. Yeah. I think it was this thing here on that (indicating). I think that's the one.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness pointed out some carving that is very unique and distinct as a part of the stock of this particular weapon in looking at it.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Did I ever at any time before right this very second ever show you or indicate to you that there was anything in particular about this weapon that was unique or unusual?
A. What?
{1436}
Q. Have I ever, have you ever pointed this out to me before?
A. No.
Q. All right. And the FBI hasn't told you it was there, and to point it out, have they?
A. No.
Q. All right. It's because you remember; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Anything else about this weapon that looks, make it such that you think maybe you had seen it before, or like the one on the time you are talking about?
A. Well, I think it was that scope there (indicating).
Q. All right. It did have a scope on the one that you had?
A. I think that's the one, yeah.
Q. All right. And it is a bolt action type of the kind that you described, is it not?
A. Yeah. That's right.
Q. All right. Now, what is it then that -- did you get any ammunition?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where did you get the ammunition?
A. From the car. It was, it was in the socks. I don't know how many rounds in there. It was about half full. I can't remember where I got it, but it was inside a sock, boots there.
Q. All right. Now, I believe you then said that somewhere you saw Dino and Bob. When was it that you first saw Dino and {1437} Bob after the shooting, or with relationship to the shooting, when was it that you first saw Dino and Bob?
A. Well, I told them that, I told Dino that there was shots coming from around the house. And he got up.
Then as we got my gun, then he met up with us. I think he was with Bob. Yeah, Bob. Bob was -- we met up with them, though.
Q. You know you met up with them?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember where it was that you met up with Dino and Bob insofar as a place?
A. Right here (indicating).
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: And let the record show that the witness is pointing out an area just below the words "SA Williams' car," which is along the small road.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Did they have any weapons at that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Let's start with Dino, and that's Dino Butler; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Now, would you describe for the jury the weapon that Dino Butler had.
A. It was a big rifle. Had a big stock. It was just big.
It was long, it was long. About this long (indicating). {1438} And it had -- it was just a big rifle.
Q. All right. And was there anything else descriptive about it that you remember that was different from other rifles?
A. There was a clip on there.
Q. And where was the clip, what with relationship? Does it come from the top or from the bottom?
A. I think it was from the top.
Q. All right. Do you remember about the size or the length of the clip?
A. I don't know. I think it was about five rounds, ten rounds.
Q. All right. Now, do you remember what kind of a weapon that Bob had at that time?
A. It was a -- I don't know what kind of a gun it was, but --
Q. I want you to describe. You didn't know what kind of a gun. Would you please describe it to the jury.
A. Well, it had a long clip, and it had a handlebar trigger.
Q. When you say "long clip," you mean that one -- would you show about how long it is to the jury.
A. About this long (indicating).
Q. All right. And is that the way that it goes to the weapon, the way you are now describing it?
A. Yeah, it goes in like this (indicating).
Q. What kind of shells does it fire, the shape or the size of them?
{1439}
A. I think it was a 45 or 44.
Q. Now, is that something that you knew at that time, or is that something that somebody has told you since then?
A. Yeah, since then.
Q. All right. Would you describe the size of the, of those shells, compared, for example, to a 30 caliber. Do you know what the size of a 30 caliber shell generally is?
A. Yeah. About this big (indicating).
Q. All right. How in size, in either length or in fatness or thickness?
A. It was pretty fat and it was small.
Q. All right. Now, where did you, where did you go from there?
A. After I met up with them?
Q. Yes.
A. Okay. We met up with them. We started, me and Joe ran up here, and Bob and Dino went on this trail here (indicating).
Q. All right. And where was the last point that you saw Bob and Dino? Would you point out on the exhibit where it was the last spot that you saw Bob and Dino?
A. About right here (indicating).
Q. All right.
A. Along this road (indicating).
Q. All right. Along the road?
A. Yes.
{1440}
Q. Now, you drew a line along the road. Would you show the jury where it was you recall you, they left you, or you parted, and how far down that road did you see them?
A. It was about, I saw them about right around here somewhere (indicating).
Q. And where was the last spot that you saw them, to the best of your recollection? Where were they, Bob and Dino, at the time you last saw them?
A. It was on this road here (indicating). And I last saw them when I split up.
Q. You split up?
A. Me and Joe were up here, and Bob and Dino went on this road here (indicating).
Q. Did you see them after you split up along the road at any place?
A. Yeah. It was, I think it was down here somewhere, down this area here (indicating).
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness encircled an area that includes at the left edge the letter "P" as it now exists on the map and included the road and the edge of the woods itself.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, where did you go then? You say you split back there, and then you went someplace. Would you show the direction that you went.
{1441}
A. Towards the housing right here (indicating).
Q. All right. Did you run across ground then? You didn't follow any road; is that right?
A. No. We just ran across on top.
Q. You ran across on top.
A. nd was there firing going on at this time?
A. Right.
Q. Was there firing going on all the time that you were running from the tent area with the weapon that you are now describing?
A. Just off and on.
Q. Off and on?
A. Right.
Q. All right. And would you describe the nature of the firing that you heard off and on. Did you hear a few rounds, or many rounds or approximately how many rounds?
A. Yeah. I heard a few rounds then off and on. I heard one time about eight rounds go off once.
Q. Eight rounds go off all at once; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Well, does that mean they were very close together when you say "go off at once"?
A. I think it was eight. There was, it was pretty fast. Yeah, it was fast.
Q. All right. That's while you are running up here; is that right?
{1442}
A. Yeah. About right here (indicating).
Q. All right. Now, where specifically did you go with reference to the area, the Jumping Bull area? Would you point out on the map the spot, or the general area to which you went.
A. I think it was that -- I think it was that white house and --
Q. When you say "the white house" you mean the Jumping Bull house?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. You think you went to the white house!?
A. (No response.)
Q. Or if you didn't, I mean you think about it for a minute.
A. No. It was, I think it was that shed there.
Q. All right. Would you point out the shed. Is that the one between the green house and the white house?
A. Yeah.
Q. There is a shed there, all right.
Now, was there anybody else there at that time when you got there?
A. Well, when I was, when I was running across, Angie and Ivis were carrying two little kids. I think it was two or three little kids. They were running over towards that crest there (indicating).
Q. All right. As you came up to this area then, there was, would you describe again who it was and where they were going?
{1443}
A. It was Angie and Ivis Long Visitor.
Q. All right. And are they the people that live in the green house?
A. Yeah. And well, well, when we split up we started running about right here (indicating), then we saw them. We passed them.
Q. You passed them; is that right?
A. Yeah. Not real close, but we just passed them.
Q. And do you know where they were going or what general direction?
A. Yeah. They were, I guess they were running up opposite from where they were coming from.
Q. With relationship to the highway, or tent city, do you where the general direction they were going?
A. About towards where this line is, like that direction (indicating).
Q. All right. Would that be along sort of the crest of the plateau, the high ground; is that right?
A. Right.
MR. TAIKEFF: May I ask, Your Honor, for Mr. Hultman to state approximately the point where they seem to have passed each other. That was not put into the record.
MR. HULTMAN: I don't know, but I'll ask the question, Counsel, for clarification.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Would you point out approximately where {1444} it was as you best can recall that you saw the Long Visitors. You said in response that they weren't, you didn't pass them very close, but you were going the opposite direction. Would you point out approximately where it was that you saw them. Where were they when you saw them?
A. About right here somewhere (indicating).
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that it's in the general area on the plateau.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, who was at, if anybody, who did you see when you got to the shed between the white house and the green house?
A. It was Mike and Norman.
Q. Mike and Norman; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Would you tell the full names to the jury again.
A. Mike Anderson.
Q. Mike Anderson.
A. And Norman Charles.
Q. And Norman Charles.
Now, where was Mike Anderson when you first saw him?
A. He was by, I think he was by that white house there, the Jumping Bull house.
Q. All right. By Jumping Bull's house, all right.
A. nd where was the other young man that you referred to?
{1445}
A. They were both around that white house there.
Q. Both around the white house, all right.
Now, did you see anything in the general area other than those two people? Did you see anybody else?
A. Yeah. Me and Joe ran up here (indicating). We were by that green house, that shed there. There was Mike and Norman. Then I looked down around here and I saw Leonard there.
Q. All right. Now, you saw Leonard. Would you come to the map, and so that the jury can see where it is now at this time that you saw Leonard. Would you point that out specifically where you saw Leonard.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right. Let me draw a circle as you did and you tell me if it's any different. It's in that general area that you saw Leonard, is that a fair representation?
A. Yeah. It's about right I guess.
Q. Well, if it isn't -- is this the general area where you saw him?
A. The general area.
Q. All right. If it's any different I want you to make sure what it is.
A. No, it's right, it's right.
Q. You go ahead and put it on the map the way it was, not the way I maybe drew a circle because you were there and I wasn't.
A. What do you mean?
{1446}
Q. Well, where was the general area that you pointed out where you remember seeing Leonard at this point?
A. Right here (indicating.)
Q. All right. You drew the circle a little larger. Would you draw it so it's clear on the map.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the line, that circle area that has a number of black marks, and I'm going to designate that circle area with the letter "L".
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what was he doing at that time?
A. Well, he was, he was laying down and he'd get up and shoot, and then he'd lay back down and get up and shoot, and lay back down.
Q. Now, what kind of weapon did he have at that time that you observed him?
A. It was like the one -- looked like an M16.
Q. It's like the one I showed you; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right.
THE COURT: Mr. Hultman, we have reached the time when the Court is set for recess. Court will recess until 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning.
(Whereupon, the court adjourned at 4:30 o'clock P.M. on March 24, 1977 until 9:00 o'clock A.M. on March 25, 1977.)
MR. HULTMAN: Plaintiff calls Norman Brown.
IF it please the Court.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
NORMAN BROWN,
being previously sworn testified further as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. HULTMAN:
Q. And you understand that today as a witness that you are still in your renarl;s sworn on the pipe to tell the truth, do you understand that?
A. Yeah.
Q. And that what you did yesterday continues today?
A. Yeah.
Q. I want to go back to where we left off yesterday, and at that time I believe you indicated that there were certain people in certain places when you got to the area, the general vicinity of the green house, the little shed between and the white house, is that right? Do you recall that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now I want to direct your attention again to Government's Exhibit No. 71. As I recall, one of the persons you indicated that was there when you arrived there was Norman Charles, is that right?
{1470}
A. What?
Q. Was Norman Charles one of the persons who was in this area when you got into the area yourself?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where we left off yesterday.
A. Yeah.
Q. Where was Norman as best you recall when you first saw time?
A. He was at the white house.
Q. At the white house. And that's the house that's been referred to here as the Jumping Bull house is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. And do you remember, did he have any weapon of some kind t that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you describe it to the jury for us, please.
A. Well, it was long rifle. Just a long rifle.
Q. It was a long rifle of some kind.
Now you also indicated that there was another person here when you got there. Do you remember who that was?
A. Mike.
Q. And who is Mike? Mike who?
A. Anderson.
Q. Mike Anderson.
Where was Mike Anderson when you saw him when you {1471} arrived?
A. By the white house.
Q. He was also by the white house. And that's the same house you just talked about that's the Jumping Bull house, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you indicated that there was another person that you saw not in the area of the houses but in another part of the area down in an area which you circled with this "P" in the general area of the "P," is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Who was that?
A. Leonard.
Q. Now did the other person that was here at the -- pardon? Leonard was here?
A. Yeah.
Q. I want to take you back. The person you just referred to prior to Leonard, did he have a weapon of some kind at the white house?
A. Who?
Q. This second person. You indicated you saw two persons here. You talked about one of then having a weapon of some kind did you not?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did the second person have a weapon of any kind?
{1472}
A. Yeah.
Q. And who was that person?
A. Mike.
Q. Mike.
Now what kind of a weapon? Would you describe what the weapon was as it looked like as you best recall.
A. I think it was a .22.
Q. And was it a .22 that you also had?
A. I think so.
Q. Now you described that. What kind of a weapon did Leonard have?
A. Well, when I, it looked like M-16.
Q. And that was the weapon that you described for the jury a little earlier, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. I'm going to show you now that has been marked as an exhibit in this case and ask you at the time that you are now talking about and the person you are referring to and the actions that you described at the end of yesterday, was it a weapon of this general type and description?
A. Yeah. Looked like that.
Q. All right.
Now you indicated that one of those two persons also had a weapon that looked like a .22, is that correct?
A. Right.
{1473}
Q. And that you had a weapon Norman Brown l t 73 that you had earlier described, is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. And I'm going to show you now the weapon that has been introduced or marked as evidence in this case as 41A and ask you whether or not it was a weapon of this kind that you had at the time you're now testifying.
A. That kind?
Q. Yes. A weapon. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. Was the weapon that you saw in the hands of Mr. Anderson at that time, was it one of a general description of this kind?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Well, you said, I believe, you thought it was a .22, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did the .22 in any way resemble one like this in any way?
A. No.
Q. No. All right.
Was there anything else in particular about the one you had from the one he had as you recall?
A. Well, mine had the scope.
Q. Yours had the scope. Did his have the scope?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Is there anything else about Mr. Anderson's weapon that {1474} you do recall?
A. Just a rifle.
Q. Just a rifle. And a .22 you thought?
A. Yeah. .22.
Q. Now you said that just as you came to the hill that you were with another person, is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And who was that?
A. Joe.
Q. And did Joe have a weapon of any kind at that time?
A. Right.
Q. And what kind of a weapon? Describe it to me.
A. Well it was lever action (indicating).
Q. All right.
A. lever. And you made --
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness made a signal in this direction (indicating).
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) What else do you remember about that particular weapon that Joe had?
A. It was a rifle.
Q. And it was a rifle. Is there anything else you remember about it? Had you ever seen it before?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where had you seen it before?
A. In the log cabin there.
Q. You had seen it before here in the log cabin. The same {1475} place that you had seen the weapon that you have previously referred to that Mr. Peltier had at this time is that right?
A. Say that again.
Q. You saw it in the same place, the log house, which in earlier testimony you said that is likewise a place where you saw a weapon of the same kind and nature that Mr. Peltier had at this time?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now I'm going to show you what again has been marked as an exhibit in this case and ask you whether or not the weapon that Mr. Stuntz had was one of a general description of the same type as I'm now going to show you?
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show I have in my hands Government Exhibit No. 32A.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) I want you, Norman, to look at this weapon and ask you whether or not the one that you have describe that Joe had was one of this general description?
A. Yeah.
Q. And wren you referred to a lever or a lever handle, is his what you were referring to?
A. Right.
Q. You said you had seen the weapon that he had before, is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you had seen it in the log house?
{1476}
A. Right.
Q. Now we've talked about the two people that were here when you arrived in the general vicinity of the white house. You've talked about Mr. Stuntz, you talked about Mr. Peltier. Was there anyone else other than the two men that you said you had split with and those two persons were who, as you recall?
A. Bob and Dino.
Q. Bob and Dino. You had split with them.
Were there any other people that you saw in the area that I have inscribed here, in this area (indicating)? Do you remember seeing anybody else?
A. No.
Q. At that time.
A. No.
Q. That's everyone?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is there --
A. That's all I saw.
Q. Is there any question in your mind about that at all, whether or not there was any other persons?
A. Yeah.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have to object to the form of that question, Your Honor, as assuming a fact not in evidence. I think the witness said he did not see anyone.
{1477}
MR. HULTMAN: I will restate it and it's correct, Counsel.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) My question to you, Norman, are there any other persons that you saw, there may have been people you didn't see, of course --
A. Yeah. I saw Angie and Ivis.
Q. The Long Visitors that you talked about. They didn't have any weapons with them of any kind, did they?
A. No. No.
Q. Were there any other persons at all that you can recall?
A. No.
Q. Now at the time that you said you saw Mr. Peltier and you described his actions and the type of weapon that he had and the shooting, did you see any other persons in the entire area that's represented here? Did you see any other people of any kind?
A. Yeah. We were running, when we got to the houses, two FBI Agents started shooting at me and Joe.
Q. Two FBI agents started shooting at you and Joe. Where were the two FBI agents?
{1478}
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right. And would you point out on Government's Exhibit 71 where they were.
A. (Indicating.)
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that, the witness has pointed out the area of Coler's car as it's represented in writing on Government's Exhibit No. 71.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, would you tell us when it was, where you were when you saw the two agents first here in the area you've pointed out, where were you when you first saw them?
A. I was right by that green house (indicating).
Q. By the green house, and that's this house here (indicating); is that right?
A. No.
Q. You point out and you tell us, I don't mean to --
A. (Indicating.)
Q. Would you maybe stand up if you have to in order to actually touch the board.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right. You are showing the green house. And where, where around the green house were you as you best recall with relationship to the green house? Where were you?
A. About right here (indicating}.
Q. All right. You were somewhere between the green house and {1479} shed the shed. Is that the general area that you are pointing out?
A. Right. Around that area.
Q. Now, what were you doing at the moment that you saw the two individuals down in this area (indicating)? What were you doing when you first saw them?
A. Well, when I first, when they come running we saw them. And I stood by that house ready for the shots, and I was going across. And they started shooting and, you know, I could hear the rounds go by. And that's when I started shooting back again.
Q. All right. Now, would you describe what it was you saw here. Would you describe the scene that you observed in front of you for the jury. In other words, you tell the jury what it was you saw.
A. Well, I saw there was, I saw two cars.
Q. All right, you saw two cars.
Would you tell us where the cars were in terms of each then and how would you describe the two cars?
A. Well, one was pointing, you know, south, and the other was pointing west.
Q. All right. Would you come here and point with the pointer or us the direction that each of the cars were pointed, and let's start with one car and just talk about one car for a moment. Would you do that?
A. (No response.)
Q. Okay. Tell the jury one car, start with one car.
{1480}
A. Well, this one was south, pointing south and north.
Q. All right. So was it in a position, if this were to represent a car itself, was it pointed in generally the direction that that drawing is right now?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And was it in the general area or position that represented in this Government's Exhibit No. 71? Is that about how you would best recall it was?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Can you tell the jury anything more about that car. Do you remember anything about the car?
A. The hood, the trunk hood was open.
Q. All right. So that, which the direction you say was, it faced this direction; is that right?
A. Yeah. The front was facing that way (indicating).
Q. But the trunk hood was up, is that what you are saying?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, is there anything else you remember about car?
A. There was an agent.
Q. And where was the agent with relation to the car itself?
A. He was behind that trunk hood.
Q. He was behind the trunk hood of the car we are talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you describe, did he have a weapon of any kind?
{1481}
A. Yeah.
Q. And do you remember what it looked like?
A. I think he had a handgun, or he had one than pumped, a rifle.
Q. He had one that pumped?
A. A rifle.
MR. HULTMAN: And let the record show that the witness gave a motion with his left hand like a movement of some kind.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) All right. Have you seen a gun, a pump gun before this particular time? Had you ever seen a pump gun?
A. No.
Q. Hadn't seen one?
A. No.
Q. All right. Have you seen one since of any kind, any time, anywhere?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, so as you best recall then the man standing behind this car (indicating) was behind an open trunk, and he had a weapon that looked like he was pumping; is that a fair conclusion of what you've just said?
A. Right.
Q. Was there anything else that you remember about that car, that person, anything in particular?
A. (No response.)
{1482}
Q. If you don't, we'll move to the second car.
A. I don't remember.
Q. All right. Now, would you point out to the jury where the second car was with relationship to the car you've just talked about.
A. Right there (indicating).
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: And let the record reflect that he pointed to a position that was to the left.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember seeing any junked cars or abandoned cars that were in the area at all? Do you recall any junked or abandoned cars at all?
A. You mean these here (indicating)?
Q. Well, any where.
A. Yeah. These here junked cars (indicating).
Q. There were some junked cars.
MR. HULTMAN: And let the record show that the witness refers to a row of sis approximately objects in the area just to the West and a little south of the intersection which is marked with a "P".
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember any other junked cars of any kind?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, tell us with relationship to the first car that was pointed generally in the direction that you were, {1483} is that a fair description by me of the hill?
A. Yeah.
Q. What direction was the vehicle, car pointed?
A. West. He was pointing east, the front was pointing east.
Q. All right. Would you, by taking the object that is here, and is just in the general shape longer than it is one direction to another, would you put it on the map and place it in the direction, or in the position that it was sitting as you best remember. This is the second car now we are talking about.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. Maybe we should put the first car first where you thought the first car was and that might help.
A. Yeah (indicating).
Q. All right. And then put the second car.
A. Where's the front one?
Q. Well, was the front of the car pointed toward the first car?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. So that in other words you are saying as you put it here this is the front of the car; is that right?
A. (No response.)
Q. Nearest, or pointing in a general southerly direction?
A. Yeah. It had to.
Q. Now, what can you recall about that car, and anything about that car? Is there anything in particular that you remembered about the car?
{1484}
A. It was shooting. There was an agent shooting.
Q. There was an agent shooting.
Where was that agent?
A. I think he was on this side (indicating).
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness has pointed to the side which is away from the position where he was.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) The car was between you and the agent; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, did he have a weapon of some kind?
A. Yeah. It was a handgun.
Q. It was a handgun.
A. nd could you see what position he had the handgun?
A. Yeah. He'd get up and shoot some rounds and back down.
Q. So you saw him shoot and then get back down; is that right
A. Right.
Q. Now, were there any other people now that you saw in the area other than the ones that you described up to this point? Do you remember any other persons, seeing any other persons in the area that is shown here as Government's Exhibit 71 up to this time?
A. Did I see anybody in this area besides these two?
Q. Yes.
{1485}
A. No.
Q. All right. Did you see anybody, any other people in the entire area that you were looking at, the scene you were looking at from up here in the place that you were located? Did you see any other persons?
A. Well, after a while two cars came in.
Q. All right. Now, would you show the jury where those cars came in on Government's Exhibit 71.
A. Can I talk to my lawyer?
Q. Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, the witness has requested an opportunity to visit with his lawyer.
THE COURT: Very well.
(Whereupon, the witness conferred with his counsel, Mr. Maring.)
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, Norman, I believe we were at the point where you indicated you now saw some other people somewhere; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Would you maybe, if you'd come over in this side so that the jury could see, and you point out on the map, Government's Exhibit 71, where it was now that you saw any other persons. And if you don't remember exactly, tell us as est you can where it was.
A. I saw two cars coming in right here (indicating).
{1486}
MR. HULTMAN: And let the record show that the witness has indicated that two cars, he saw two cars coming in on an extension of the road that comes from Highway 18 past Jumping Bull Hall into the residences that we know as Wanda Siers; and the area he specifically is referring to is a, an area approximately the length of a pencil if you put one end of the pencil at the Siers' residence and left the rest of it in a generally northeasterly direction on the road that is there.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what is it then that, what is it that happened at that time?
A. You mean right there (indicating)?
Q. Yes. Tell us what it is you saw and observed.
A. Well, I saw two cars were coming in. When they were coming in we started shooting at those two cars.
Q. You say "we started shooting;" is that right?
A. (No response.)
Q. And who do you mean by "we"?
A. Me and Norman Charles.
Q. All right. Now, where were you and Norman at that time? Would you show the jury again on Government's Exhibit 71 where you were at that time.
A. Yeah. I moved from here (indicating) to this white house the propane tanks.
Q. All right.
{1487}
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that the witness now had moved from where he had indicated previously to a point near the Jumping Bull house near some propane tanks.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Is that what I heard you say?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Where were those propane tanks with relationship to the Jumping Bull house?
A. They wore on the east side of the house.
Q. All right. Would you point out approximately where they were.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that he points to the east side of the Jumping Bull house.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Were these tanks seemingly tanks that are up against a house and used somewhere in the house?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, where was the other person that you refer to at that time, the time you say, "We started shooting"?
A. There was two cars. There were some people in there. I don't know how many people, though.
Q. All right. And they were coming into the Jumping Bull area; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And how far, as you recall if you do, about {1488} where was it that she first car got, as far as it got?
A. Right there (indicating).
Q. All right. And let me make an "A" at that particular point where the witness has just marked a pencil "At" on Government's Exhibit No. 71.
The first car got to that point; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Now, where was the second car?
A. Right there (indicating).
Q. All right. And let me put a "B" at that point. In other words, one car was following the other, is that a fair conclusion on my part?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Now, at what point did you, when you referred to to "we," the two of you start firing at the two cars, "A" and "B"? Where were they when you started firing at them right where you pointed it out there?
A. Well, right here (indicating).
Q. little short of the point of where they stopped.
Now, describe what it was that then happened as far as the two cars.
A. Well, started shooting at them. I think a couple of the tires. Then they moved back, they practically stopped and, and they moved back to about right here (indicating), somewhere around this area hero (indicating), and they were parked there.
{1489} And they got out and they started shooting at us.
Q. All right. Where they finally parked, where was it with relationship to the Highway 18? Was it a long way from the highway, or a short way, or somewhere --
A. You mean right here (indicating)?
Q. Yes. I just want to find out generally.
That's generally where you think it was; is that right?
A. Yeah. Around this area here (indicating).
Q. All right. Somewhere in this area (indicating.)
I'm going to draw a circle.
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, could you continue to see all of those two cars?
A. You mean from there (indicating)?
Q. Yes. From where you were?
A. Yes. I could see them.
Q. You could still see them, all right.
How far away from the Siers' residence, or the house that you are talking about that they got up to in front of almost "A" and "B", how far away from it as you remember back your mind in the scene, how far away did the two cars back in distance from the house that was known as the Siers' residence? Could you give the jury an estimation of some kind?
A. You mean how far they moved back here (indicating)?
Q. Yes. How far did they move back?
{1490}
A. About seventy-five yards.
Q. All right. Approximately seventy-five yards?
A. About, yeah.
Q. All right. Now, what if anything then happened next? What do you remember next?
A. As soon as we started shooting at them, shooting at us, we saw some more cars coming around, around this area where that highway is.
Q. All right. You know the area generally, do you not?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is there another road or highway that comes around on the other side of the creek which would be below Government's Exhibit 71?
A. Yeah.
Q. And is it on the side of a hill somewhat the same height as this general area in here (indicating)?
A. Yeah. I could, you could see the road from --
Q. You could, all right.
A. From around there, yeah.
Q. You could look across the wooded land where the creek was over to where that road is and see it; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, what was it that you saw happening over here on the road, that's over on this side of the creek?
A. Saw some agents. Well, we got out of the car and they {1491} started going across the field this way (indicating). They got out of the car. I think there was three or four of them got out of the car and started coming up this way (indicating).
Q. So they got out of their car and they started coming towards your direction, is that a fair conclusion on my part?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Do you remember, do you know any of the houses or any of the people that lived across from the creek along that road that you are talking about?
A. No.
Q. You don't know any of them?
A. No.
Q. And did you know any buildings of any kind over there?
A. Yeah. I think there's a couple houses back there somewhere.
Q. All right. And were the men that you saw anywhere in the vicinity of any of those houses that you talked about? If you recall whether they were or they weren't.
A. I don't know. I saw them get out of the car and they come this way (indicating).
Q. All right. Now, you said that they were agents, and I want to ask you about that. Did you know at the time or is this something that you concluded at that time?
A. You mean --
Q. That they were agents?
A. Yeah. At that time when I saw them, you know, people would {1492} tell me, you know, there's agents on Pine Ridge and there's goons. And when everything happened from then, you know, I thought it might be agents.
Q. All right. So you thought they were agents, that's the point you are making?
A. Yeah.
Q. You didn't know of your own knowledge --
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I object to the repetition because the witness said ho thought they might have been agents. And it was made, the repetition was made in a very positive sense.
{1493}
MR. HULTMAN: I withdraw, and that is correct.
THE COURT: Very well.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, what was the next thing that you saw and observed; were you still at the same position here in the general area of the tents, of the white house?
A. No, slipping around the house, and then we saw a couple of cars go by up here (indicating).
Q. All right. Could you see Highway 18 then from where you were?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you see the -- any cars coming and going?
A. Yes, saw them coming and go by, past.
Q. What direction were those cars going, if you remember, would you show the jury what direction?
A. (Indicating).
Q. And they were going fast, you said?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what was the next thing that you saw and observed?
A. Joe came up to me, and he said, "There is women and children in the camp, you know. Our sisters are down there," he said. Then he said, "Why don't you go down there? The agents are coming in this way (indicating), so this is the time to be a man. This is the time to be a warrior," so he said, "Why don't you go over there and take somebody with you?" "They might be coming in from this side (indicating)."
{1494}
Q. What general area were you discussing at that time, would you point out on the map generally?
A. Right up there (indicating).
Q. Generally where the tents were, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, did you at any time while you were on the hill itself look down where the agents were again and see anything down where the agents were?
A. Yeah. I saw one of them. I think it was this guy here (indicating).
Q. That's the one that was behind the first car, behind the trunk, is that the one that you are pointing out now?
A. Yeah, I think it was that guy (indicating).
Q. All right.
A. One of them I saw crawl through the car and crawl back to the original positions they were at. I think it was this one here (indicating). I don't remember, but I know I saw one of them.
Q. What you remember then is that you saw one of them, you don't know which one, is that a fair conclusion?
A. Yes.
Q. And what was it you observed him doing if you did see him doing anything, you said he was crawling?
A. Yeah. He crawled through the front of the car and he crawled out. He was there for awhile, and then he crawled back {1495} out and got in the same place where he was at.
Q. All right. Did you see the second person at this time that you are talking about?
A. Yeah. He was shooting away there.
Q. Now, what kind of a weapon did he have, what kind of a gun?
A. Handgun.
Q. The handgun, all right.
Now, did you at any time see anybody else down in the are where the two men were?
A. Besides those two?
Q. Yes, at any time during the afternoon.
A. No.
Q. You didn't see anybody else in that area at all?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you see the men at the cars, the two men at any other time than the two times you have now talked about, prior to the time that you left?
A. You mean, did I see them right after I saw them them times that I saw them?
Q. You talked about two times. Did you see them any other time?
A. No. That's when Joe told me to go around and take them, so we ran across over here (indicating). Then we were over here by this gate here (indicating), around here (indicating).
{1496}
Q. All right. Would you tell me, and I will mark it, I will move my pencil and you tell me when -- have I gone too far, can you reach it? You show me where so I can make a mark, or you make a mark.
A. (Indicating) It is right here (indicating).
Q. All right. Let me make a mark where you are pointing right now.
A. Right there (indicating).
Q. Use the pointer, and I will make the mark where you place the pointer.
A. (Examining) There is a gate right here somewhere (indicating).
Q. Gate somewhere in here, in that general area (indicating)?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let me put a "G" there for "gate", somewhere in that general area?
A. (Indicating). (Examining) Around here some place (indicating).
Q. All right. I will draw a circle in there.
A. Yes.
Q. And I put a "NB" there for Norman Brown, that's the area generally where you are talking about, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, did you then go to that point is that what you are saying?
{1497}
A. Yeah, me and Mike ran over there.
Q. All right. You and Mike ran to a point that is the general area of the circle "NB", is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, what was the route, would you point out the route that you generally took, you and Mike?
A. About like this (indicating).
Q. All right. It was in a general direction from the areas of the houses to the area that is known as "NB", is that right, generally in that direct?
A. Yes.
Q. Not in a straight line, but just generally?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you see anybody down there when you arrived there?
A. Yeah, just me and Mike, us two were there, that's all I saw.
Q. Did you see anybody at all?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, how long approximately had you been up in this area (indicating), that you have been talking about, from the time you got there until the time you are now talking about that you left, can you give --
MR. TAIKEFF: (Interrupting) Your Honor, just to make clear, a clarification for the record, by the phrase {1498} "this area", I believe Mr. Hultman intended to be the area --
MR. HULTMAN: (Interrupting) "NB", the area to which he left. The area from which he left to the area which he went to.
MR. TAIKEFF: The "from" place is the residence, and the "to" place is near the gate.
MR. HULTMAN: Yes, near the gate.
MR. TAIKEFF: I wanted to make sure the record was complete.
MR. HULTMAN: Right.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) How long approximately, if you have any idea at all, as you best recall were you here on the hill area, in the area of the houses, from the time you got there until the time you are now talking about when you left?
A. Well, when we ran, me and Joe up here (indicating) 20 minutes and these cars came. I don't know. It happened fast, you know. I didn't keep track of time.
Q. All right, but am I clear in what your response to me was, that it was about 20 minutes from the time you got here (indicating) until the cars came in, is that what you just now said in your answer? I want to make sure of what you said.
A. I don't know for sure.
Q. Approximately?
A. I don't know.
Q. How long then was the total time that you were there before {1499} you left?
A. It was about an hour, hour and a half.
Q. Hour, hour and a half, that's the best you can do?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, did you at any time, Norman, go from the hill area back to the tent area, other than the time you are now talking about; do you recall ever going back there during that period of time other than the one you are talking about now?
A. I don't think so.
Q. All right. Let me ask you this: Did you have the same weapon from the time you left and came to the hill until the time you are now talking about when you went to the area that we have marked on the map as "NB", did you have the same gun during that period of time?
A. Well, I don't know. I don't remember.
MR. TAIKEFF: I didn't hear the answer, your Honor?
THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) You don't remember.
Now, other than the two occasions that you said when you looked down at the bottom of the hill, do you recall at any time during the hour to an hour and a half, which was an approximation you made, do you remember any other occasion when you looked down at the bottom of the hill?
A. I don't understand the question.
{1500}
Q. You were here in this area (indicating) for an hour, an hour and a half approximately, is that what you told the jury?
A. I said I didn't know, about.
Q. I know, about, approximately?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Whatever the time was when you were up on the hill during that period of time that you were there, did you look down and view anything at the cars other than the two times that you have described to the jury?
A. No.
Q. You did not, so that all the rest of that time then you were doing things that didn't have anything to do with this area down here (indicating), is that right?
A. I take these people over here (indicating), that were over here (indicating), and shooting back here (indicating), and then saw some cars coming around and went back here (indicating) we were waiting for them.
Q. So is it fair for me to conclude that you didn't do any other shooting of any kind?
A. Yeah, I shot at them, yes.
Q. When did you first --
A. (Interrupting) The first time I came down. They shot at me, and I shot at them.
Q. Is that the only time you fired down there?
A. The next time I saw them, they were shooting at us -- {1501} when I saw them, three times, the third time is when I shot back.
Q. All right. Let me take them one at a time
There are three times that you looked at them now, is that correct, as best you remember?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you told us about the first time already?
A. Yes. When I was coming across here (indicating) they shooting at me and I shot back.
Q. All right. Now, when you say they were shooting at you could they likewise have been shooting at somebody else in same general direction?
A. Yeah, they could.
Q. As far as you felt at that time, they were shooting at is that right?
A. You know, probably. Probably, yeah, shooting at all of us.
Q. Now, the second time, did you shoot at that time?
A. Back?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah, I shot back.
Q. The second time you say you saw the two men down here (indicating), if I recall you correctly -- you correct me if I say anything that is different than what you saw -- that there was one man who was standing still with the handgun, is that right, talking about the second time?
{1502}
A. Standing still?
Q. Standing, but he had a handgun, he was standing shooting, firing?
A. He was shooting going down.
Q. All right. Now, there was also a second man, and you say he was crawling, is that right?
A. Yeah, he was crawling.
Q. All right. Do you recall anything about the man that was standing in terms of what he looked like that might or might not have been different from the first time that you saw him?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Did he look any different in any way than the first time?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you fire back on that occasion when you looked the second time that are referring to?
A. No, because he was shooting at me and I didn't shoot that time.
Q. Now, what is the third time again that you are referring to now?
A. When I was back here (indicating), you know, when I saw the car come around this way (indicating).
Q. The car?
A. It was this way (indicating), I saw the car.
Q. When you are referring to you saw other cars, where is it that you are now talking about, where were those cars?
{1503}
A. Back here (indicating), the highway, the dirt road.
Q. You are talking about the road that loops around, this one you were talking about a little while ago, you saw some more cars on that road?
A. From the time I saw those, he told me to go over there.
Q. Is that the time then that you saw and looked down where the two cars and the two men were, the third time, is that the time?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Now, what is it that you saw at that time?
A. In here (indicating)?
Q. Yes.
A. Shooting at me, so I shot back. I don't know if they were shooting at me, you know, the guns were pointing that way.
Q. Would you describe what the two men were doing at that particular time as you best recall?
A. One had a pump rifle (indicating), and the other one had handgun.
Q. All right. One had a pump rifle, and you pumped again, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And the other one had the handgun?
A. Yes.
Q. There were the two men at that time?
A. That one was right behind this car (indicating), and the {1504} other one right behind this one (indicating).
Q. Were they in the same general positions they were the first time you saw them?
A. Not the same position, but moved around the two cars, you know, and shooting back of it.
Q. All right. Now, did you see any other people other than the ones you talked about while you were on the hill up to the time that you left and went to the area on the map that you have pointed out as "NB"; do you remember seeing any of the same people or any additional people, any other places on Government's Exhibit 71?
A. Yeah, Dino.
Q. Where was Dino?
A. I think he was around -- let's see. I am not sure, probably around here (indicating), around the cars. I am not sure. Around the area (indicating) -- I saw him, yeah, the cars there.
Q. All right. It is correct your response is by the cars, in that general area. Would you point out on the map the area that you are referring to so that the jury will be able to see?
A. Right here (indicating).
Q. All rights Can I draw a circle here approximately that you were, generally?
A. (Indicating).
Q. All right. Let's make your circle very dark here, and who {1505} was in that general area?
A. Dino.
Q. I am going to put the word "Dino" there. Now, what was Dino doing?
A. He was shooting.
Q. He was shooting.
Do you remember what, would you describe for the jury the kind of weapon that he had that he was shooting with at that time?
A. It was a big rifle, big stock, just big.
Q. Big, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, big stock, big rifle?
A. Yes.
Q. Had you ever seen it before?
A. You mean before June 26th?
Q. Yes, before June 26th.
A. No.
Q. Had you seen it before that very moment on June 26th, had you seen it earlier any time?
A. Yeah. It was up here by these bushes here (indicating). We split up, and we were running over here (indicating).
Q. Yes. He had it at that time, and you saw it at that time, this same one?
A. Yes.
{1506}
Q. So you saw it when you were fairly close together up there, when you split up, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And that's how you can describe it?
A. This big rifle, and clip, I think it was, clip put in from the top.
Q. It was a big rifle and a clip that you put in from the top?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, was there anybody else -- did you see anybody in the same general area that you saw Dino?
A. Leonard.
Q. You saw Leonard?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was Leonard?
A. Right here (indicating).
Q. All right. Now, did you see anybody else?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, would you describe the firing that you have just referred to, would you describe to the jury what the firing sounded like.
A. Kind of fast.
Q. Kind of fast, all right.
How many shots did you see or hear when you were looking over here (indicating) at the time we are now talking about?
{1507}
A. It was just off and on, about, you know, five shots and then stop, and then shooting back to the Indians here (indicating), and get down; and that side stop, shot five more, some like pretty fast. I don't know how many rounds. We shot back again.
Q. It sounded pretty fast.
Where was it that it sounded pretty fast?
A. Around here (indicating).
Q. All right. The area where Dino and Leonard were, is that the area you are pointing out?
A. Yes.
Q. You are very clear it didn't sound like it was fast down here (indicating), is that a fair conclusion for me to draw?
A. This was fast, but not, you know, really fast, just kind of like, like, like -- (indicating). It was kind of fast, not as fast as down where it was fast.
{1508}
Q. Compared to the two then, that's what you're saying. This one was faster than this one, is that a fair conclusion from what you just said?
A. Yeah. I guess so.
Q. I just want what your answer is, what you remember, not what I said.
MR. TAIKEFF: May I make the suggestion, since the chart is not playing the important role it was 10 or 15 minutes ago, could we have the benefit of the use of the microphone in the witness box because some of the answers are not audible here.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Were there any other individuals that you saw while you were up on top of the hill doing anything other than what you have told the jury up to this point, Norman? Do you remember any other people doing --
A. Besides those two I just said?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Do you remember seeing anybody else firing?
A. You mean besides those? Yeah. The agents. They were firing.
Q. Besides the ones you've talked about, any others?
A. No.
Q. Now I'm going to show you what has been marked, first of all, as Government's Exhibit 29A ask you whether or not you have {1509} a weapon of this general description before?
A. Yeah. It looked like that.
Q. When you say it looked like this, what is it? You tell the jury.
A. It was long. It was a big stock.
Q. And what time are you referring to now that you're talking about?
A. You mean when I first saw it?
Q. Yes.
A. It was right up there (indicating).
Q. Who was it that had a weapon generally this description?
A. That looked like that?
Q. Yes.
A. Dino.
Q. And is it a weapon that generally looks like that that you saw him with at the time we just finished talking about? Did he have the same weapon of the same general description that you saw him with earlier?
A. You mean from up there (indicating)?
Q. Yes.
A. I don't know. It was long. Couldn't hardly see. It might have been. I don't know.
Q. You don't know for sure. All right.
Now I look at this and I ask you from your own knowledge, because you were the one that said that a clip went {} in and you used a motion, is that the kind of general type of situation as to how you would load this kind of a weapon from the clip from the top?
A. Yeah. From the top.
Q. So this kind of a weapon would meet the description with reference to the clip in the top that you described a while ago, too, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now I'm going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 37A and ask you whether or not just from a general description have you seen a weapon that resembles one of this general description?
A. You mean did that look like --
Q. I'm just asking you, Norman, whether or not you have ever seen a weapon on this day or before that we're talking about that generally looked like this kind of a weapon?
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you tell us where it was and with whom that you saw a weapon that was generally of this description?
A. Bob.
Q. And when you refer to Bob, who are we referring to?
A. Robideau.
Q. Where was it that you saw Bob with a weapon that fit this general description, if you remember?
A. No, I don't remember. I just remember seeing that with him.
{1511}
Q. Now what did you do when you got to the point, and you went with Bob, is that right? When you got to the point that I we've marked on the map as "NB," who was with you at that time?
A. Mike Anderson.
Q. What if anything did you and Mike do?
A. We were just waiting because they were coming in that direction, people.
Q. And did you see anybody while you were there in that area once you got down there where the area we've marked as "NB"?
A. Besides meeting Mike there?
Q. Yes.
A. No.
Q. Did you see anybody while you were down there?
A. No.
Q. How long approximately did you stay down there before you saw anyone? When was it that you first saw anyone after the two of you went down to that area? Were you there for some time?
A. Yeah. Was there about, about an hour, two hours. It was long time but I don't know.
Q. It was a long time?
A. Yeah.
Q. Maybe an hour to two hours?
A. I don't know. Maybe. It was a long time.
{1512}
Q. These are all approximations that you're giving, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Just to the best that you can remember?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now did you see anybody other than your companion during that time that you were there, see anybody else?
A. Yeah. Was Norman Charles.
Q. All right. How long after the two of you were there approximately, that you best can remember was it before you saw Norman Charles?
A. I think it was Wish. It was one of them. It was Wish. No. It was Norman. I don't know.
A. bout an hour and a half, two hours. It was a long time.
Q. Long time. All right.
A. nd you tell me who it was and what you did.
A. You mean that came?
Q. Yes. Who came?
A. It was --
Q. Did you learn something at that time that might be of help to you as to who it was?
A. Yeah. Mike came. Not Mike, Norman. He told me that Joe had been hit, you know, he's dead.
Q. So you know it was Norman. There isn't any question in {1513} your mind about that, is that right?
A. I don't know. I can't remember.
Q. You don't know for sure?
A. I don't know. I don't know.
Q. What if anything then did you do next?
A. Well, we went to, he took us, said, "Let's go back to camp." So we went to camp and got a tent.
Q. All right.
Would you point out then where it was you were. Let's start from where you were.
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right. You're pointing out the area generally with a circle marked "NB". And where from there did you go?
A. (Indicating.)
Q. You went back to the general area where the tents were, is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Now what was it that you saw -- withdraw that.
Who was it that you saw when you got back to the tent area? Who were the people, if any, that you saw when you got back there?
A. You mean, all the people that I saw?
Q. Yes. Who are the first people that you saw or persons that saw?
A. Was Bob, Dino, Leonard. That is all. Bob, Dino, Leonard and {1514} Wish. It was Wish or Norman. I can't remember.
Q. But you're sure about Leonard, Bob and Dino, is that right?
A. Right. They were at camp there
Q. They were there when you got there, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now what if anything did you observe them doing at this particular time?
A. They were loading a van. It was a van.
Q. Had you seen the red and white -- van at some time on any other day that you're now referring to? Did you see that red and white van before?
A. (No response.)
Q. The van that you're referring to that they were loading.
A. Yes.
Q. When had you seen it before?
A. I don't know. It was before June 24.
Q. Who had you seen with the van on those occasions before rune 26th? Do you know whose van it was?
A. I think it was Leonard, but I'm not sure.
Q. And you seen Leonard drive it while you were at Jumping Bull's?
A. Yeah. I saw him drive it. Once.
Q. Now I want to take you back just for a moment from the point we are now and ask you whether or not when you were here {1515} on the top of the hill did you see any other vehicles other than the ones that you have told the jury about? In the general area of the Jumping Bull property. Not out on the highway or back here (indicating) or cross the creek and down on the other road but in the general area of the Jumping Bull's do you remember seeing any other cars than the ones that we have talked about up to this point while you were on the hill from the time you got there until the time you left?
A. It was around the houses I saw that red and white car.
Q. That's the same one we're talking about now?
A. I remember seeing it around there.
Q. Would you point out in a circle generally where you best recall, if you do, if you don't I'm not I don't want you in any way to do anything other than what you best can remember.
A. Yeah. Around there. Around the houses around there.
Q. Around the houses area?
A. Yeah. Around the area.
Q. Is that as you best recall?
A. Yeah.
Q. When was it that you saw the red and white van?
A. It was the first time when I was running up the hill. The first time when you were running up with Joe. Was there anybody around the red and white van?
A. All right.
Q. So that the red and white van was not down in the tent are {1516} in the morning while you were cutting, chopping wood and doing those things?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection to that question, Your Honor. It's both leading and assumes facts not in evidence.
MR. HULTMAN: I withdraw the question. I withdraw the question.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Did you see the red and white van down the tent area in the morning?
A. No. I don't know. Got up, then we were going to eat and then we heard the shots.
Q. Now what was it that they were loading? Do you remember what they were loading at the time we're now talking about, what the objects were?
A. Clothes, CB and food I guess. I don't know. Just loading. What I mostly saw was the clothes.
Q. Now do you remember any other car or cars that were in the general area of the tent area?
A. There was a green car.
Q. Now was that the same green car that you talked about earlier, or yesterday when you said that you went and got the weapon that you got?
A. Yeah.
Q. Is that the same green car?
A. Yeah.
Q. And I'm going to show you now what has been marked as {1517} Government's Exhibit No. 55 and it is marked as page 23 and also with an orange "1" on it and ask you whether or not you have seen that particular car before?
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you tell the jury what it is, what car that is.
A. It's a green car.
Q. Is that the same green car that you just now were talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now is that green car in generally the same place that it was that you're now testifying to?
A. Same.
Q. Is that where you saw it? Look at the area around it and see if you recognize the area.
A. Yeah. I think so; yeah. Yeah.
Q. Now do you remember seeing any objects of any kind on or about or in the green car at the time we're now talking about?
A. There. No.
Q. Did you still have your weapon?
A. Yeah.
Q. What if anything did you do with your weapon?
A. Well, I put it on that green car there.
Q. All right. So that if I were to show you again the same picture, {1518} do you see any weapon on that green car?
A. Yeah. There (indicating).
Q. Is that the weapon to the best of your knowledge?
A. Looks like it.
Q. It looks like it anyway?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right.
Now do you remember any other objects that were there, if any, at the time you put the rifle that you had secured from the green car and had in your possession up to that time and left on the hood of the green car, do you remember seeing anything else there from your own recollection at that time?
A. I don't remember.
THE COURT: The Court is in recess until 11:10.
(Recess taken.)
{1519}
THE COURT: Counsel ready to proceed?
MR. HULTMAN: Government is, Your Honor.
MR. TAIKEFF: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Bring the jury in.
(Whereupon, the jury was brought into the courtroom.)
THE COURT: You may proceed.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Norman, I believe we were talking about some automobiles, and I had showed you a Government Exhibit a little earlier in a big book, and there is one that's a separate item. And I just want you to look at it for a second. It's Government's Exhibit 13-B. Is the automobile that portrayed in 13-B the same green automobile that you've been talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. And on Government's Exhibit B is a rifle, and there are some letters. Next to it is -12. Is that the weapon that you had been referring to?
A. Yeah.
Q. And in the earlier descriptions and discussions?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, we talked about another automobile, red and white van. Do you recall?
A. (No response.)
Q. I'm going to show you what's been marked as Government's Exhibit 12 and ask you whether or not you in that photograph see {1520} anything that you would recognize?
A. Yeah. That van there.
Q. All right. Is that the red and white van generally that you've been discussing?
A. Yeah.
Q. Does it generally give the appearance of being the one that you were talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, I'm going to show you what's boa marked Defendant's Exhibit 93 and I want you to look at the scene that is portrayed there, and the automobiles that are portrayed there, and ask you whether or not you recognize the general scene that is portrayed in that exhibit?
A. Are these the junk cars here (indicating)?
Q. Well, I'm supposed to ask the questions and you tell us. Not you ask me.
A. Yeah. I guess these are junked cars that I saw.
Q. Go ahead and give you answer, whatever you answer is.
A. (No response.)
Q. Do you recognize, take a look at the photo and the scene that's there, the area, the ground, the hills, whatever is shown there. Do you recognize anything there?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Would you tell the jury what it is you recognize Defendants Exhibit 93?
{1521}
A. The hill here (indicating).
Q. Yes. What is the area at the top of the picture that you are pointing at?
A. The houses.
Q. All right. Is that the general area of the houses that you wore referring to in your earlier testimony?
A. Yeah.
Q. And if you were, is that the general area where you were during this time that you were talking about that you were up by the houses?
A. Up there (indicating)?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, if you looked down from the top of this photo, which is the area whore you said you were, do you recognize the area that's in the foreground of this picture where these automobiles are down?
A. Yeah.
Q. Could you turn, and on Government's Exhibit No. 71, and I seem to have lost the pointer.
MR. TAIKEFF: I put it on the ledge below the map, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: Thank you, Counsel.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Would you point out to the jury what it is that is portrayed in that exhibit.
{1522}
A. (Indicating.)
Q. All right.
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that he's pointing out the row of abandoned cars on Exhibit 71.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, let me put a 93 at that point and it will coincide with the exhibit that ho has just referred to.
Now, do you remember seeing those cars on any occasion that you were in Jumping Bull's? Those junked cars?
A. You mean real close or just seeing them?
Q. Did you ever go by them, over walk by them?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see them from any other place while you were there at Jumping Bull's?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where were you when you saw them?
A. Right around up there? the area where the houses are.
Q. All right. And is, do you see anything different in this picture than what you remember seeing all the times you were up at the housing area that generally what you remember you saw?
A. What?
Q. Is this generally what you saw, some abandoned or junked cars down there?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I'm going to ask you point blank, did you ever remember {1523} specifically seeing the car that is in the center of this picture?
A. No.
Q. Are you sure about that? Is there any question, have you ever seen that car that you can remember at all?
A. No.
Q. All right. Did you see it at any time on the 26th of June, 1975 that we're talking about?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, there is one other weapon that I wish to show you, and this has been marked as Government's Exhibit 30-S for the record. You testified that you saw the man who did not have the hand gun down where the two cars were here, I believe as somebody who had a gun that he was pumping; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember that?
A. Right.
Q. Now, I want to ask you whether or not, I'm not asking you that this is the weapon because you wouldn't know, there's no way for you to know whether this would be that gun, is there?
A. No.
Q. Because you only saw it from that distance. And all you indicated you saw was a man with a rifle pumping it; is that right?
{1524}
A. Right.
Q. Now, just in a general way, would this weapon here fit the general description of what you saw and remembered at that time, just generally?
A. What does that mean?
Q. Well, it means whatever it means to you. Does this particular gun have something that could be pumped?
A. Yeah. It has something that can be pumped.
Q. All right. And is it a rifle of some kind?
A. Yes, it's a rifle.
Q. All right. And is that what you remember the weapon being that the man, the second man had?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where was it that he was standing when you observed him?
A. That car there (indicating).
Q. All right. Will you come and tell us which car it was again so that the record might show. You can just point to it with your finger.
A. (Indicating).
MR. HULTMAN: Let the record show that he's pointing to the object that indicates the car on the right-hand side as you view the map farthest to the south, and the one that is pointed in the general direction of the houses to the general direction of east by southeast.
{1525}
Your Honor, at this time the Government would offer into evidence Government Exhibits 30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
MR. TAIKEFF: Assuming, Your Honor, that those numbers represent the objects which this witness has testified L to, there's no objection.
MR. HULTMAN: They do, Your Honor.
MR. TAIKEFF: No objection.
THE COURT: Would you state the exhibits again.
MR. HULTMAN: And exhibits that other witnesses have previously identified and referred to.
Exhibits 29-A, 30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
30-AA, 29-A, 37-A, 32-A and 69-A.
THE COURT: Exhibits 29-A, 30-AA, 32-A, 37-A and 69-A are received.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, I want to go back to the point where you are at the red and white van. Do you remember, I believe we were talking when you were at the red and white van.
A. Yeah.
Q. And there was some other people there when you got there; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, what, do you recall anything more specific than what you've indicated up to this point that anyone was doing in your presence at that time other than loading the van?
{1526}
A. What do you mean?
Q. Was there any discussion of any kind as to what you were going to do or where you were going to go?
A. Yeah. Leonard said, you know, there's no way out because there's, you know, we are just surrounded. We didn't know what so do. And I don't know, we were surrounded.
He said, "There's only one way out," you know. "Let' try it." "So let's get in the car, we'll make a run for it.
Q. Now, who was it that said that?
A. Leonard.
Q. All right. And what if anything did happen after that?
A. We told him that, you know, we're not going to make it. There's no way we're going to got out. So he changed his mind, we changed our minds, too. And we started going, started going oh, kind of southeast to the woods.
Q. All right. Would you now with the pointer indicate the general direction then that you started to leave by.
A. (Indicating).
Q. All right. Now, I want to ask you now, and let's talk about each individual at a time, and I think it might be a little clearer, who it was that left with you. Let's start with Leonard. Did Leonard leave? Did you go, was he a part of the group that left?
A. When all of us left?
Q. Yes.
{1527}
A. Yeah. There was Leonard.
Q. All right. Let's just talk about Leonard for a second.
A. Yeah. It was Leonard.
Q. Did Leonard have anything with him when you left?
A. Yeah.
Q. What was it?
A. It was a gun, rifle.
Q. All right. And will you describe it for the jury.
A. What I said it looked like, an M-16.
Q. All right. The same general description of the one you had seen earlier in the day?
A. Yeah. Right.
Q. Who else left with you?
A. Dino.
Q. And when you talked about the same rifle that Leonard had with him during the day, I want to take you back to the time that you saw Leonard in the area that was marked with a "P", which was this area with this circle here (indicating). Did he have the same type of weapon with him when he was at this point?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And now he has a similar weapon with him when you leave; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, Dino was the second person that you said left with you; {1528} is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. You all left together, all right.
Did he have anything with him when you left?
A. Yeah.
Q. And would you tell the jury what it was that he had?
A. It was a rifle.
Q. And do you remember what description, would you tell the jury the description of the rifle he had.
A. It was that big one like I said last time.
Q. All right. And that's the same one you described before; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, who else left with you together?
A. Mike.
Q. All right. And do you remember whether or not Mike had any weapon with him?
A. Yeah, I think so. I'm not sure.
Q. All right. Let's talk about somebody else and then go back and maybe it will help you remember.
Was there anybody else in the group? Talking about the men now?
A. Yeah. Wish.
Q. All right. And did Wish have any weapon of any kind?
A. No.
{1529}
Q. Did you ever see Wish at any time during the time that he was at Jumping Bull's with a weapon?
A. No.
Q. All right. I guess I didn't ask you, did you have a weapon?
A. Yes.
Q. And what weapon did you have?
A. 35.
Q. When you say "35", is this something different from the weapon that you have described and talked about earlier? Is it a different weapon than the 22 you wore talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. Well, now, where was it and when was it that you got a 35?
A. It was when I came back to the camp. Norman came.
Q. All right. You said that when I showed you what was Government's 13-B, I believe that that was the 22 that you have been carrying all the day, was it not?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you put it on the hood there; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. And did you leave it there?
A. Yeah.
Q. And have you ever had anything to do with the weapon itself along the trail, did you ever see it along the trail again as you left that day, or the next day, or the next day?
{1530}
A. No, I don't think so.
Q. All right.
A. Might have been. I don't know.
Q. All right. So the last you knew you left it here on this hood; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. So now you are talking about a weapon that's different from this one; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Now, would you describe that as best you can for the jury.
A. Well, it's a small rifle and bolt action (indicating).
Q. All right. And where did you get that weapon?
A. I think it was one of the tents, yeah, it was a tent I think.
Q. All right. Now, was there anybody else, any of the men who left with you that we haven't discussed up to this point? Did Bob leave with you?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And did Bob have a weapon of any kind?
A. Yeah. It was a shotgun.
Q. And do you remember anything in particular about that shotgun?
No. Just a pump. It was a big shotgun.
{1531}
Q. It was a big shotgun and it had a pump you indicated; is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. Had you ever seen that shotgun before?
A. No.
Q. In all of the weapons that all the times you'd been at Jumping Bull's?
A. No.
Q. So this was the very first time you had seen it?
A. Yeah.
Q. No question in your mind about that, is there?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 36-A and I'll ask you to look at it. Is this a weapon that has one of those pumps that you indicated on earlier occasion?
{1532}
A. What?
Q. Is it one of those weapons that has a pump?
A. Yeah.
Q. I would like you to look at the end of it, and I would like you to look at it just in general; and I would ask you, you were saying that Bob had a shotgun with him that you had seen for the first time. Was it a shotgun that in some way or any way is similar to the one that I have now?
A. It had the pump, the pump is.
Q. All right. You wouldn't know whether or not this was the one or not, would you?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, did Bob have anything else, did he carry anything else?
A. Yeah, he had a rifle. That was a rifle.
Q. All right. Would you describe to the jury what that rifle looked like, as you recall?
A. I knew it was a rifle, but I don't know what kind it was, wouldn't remember.
Q. All right. Do you remember anything about the rifle itself, anything that you might recall in your mind as you think about it, that might describe it in any way?
A. No, I can't.
Q. All right. Had you ever seen it before that time?
A. I think -- I am not sure, but I think it was the one I {1533} told you he had before. I am not sure.
Q. You are not sure, is that right?
A. I can't remember.
Q. That's a fair answer, that you are not sure?
A. Yes.
Q. That's your best answer, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, we have talked about Leonard, we have talked about Bob, we have talked about Dino, we have talked about yourself. Were there any other men or young men that went with you?
A. Norman.
Q. All right. Now, did Norman have any weapon of any kind?
A. Yeah, he had a rifle.
Q. Do you remember anything about that rifle, could you describe anything you remember to the jury?
A. It was a long one, a long rifle. It had a bolt action too (indicating).
MR. HULTMAN: All right.
(Counsel confer.)
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, let the record reflect that 37-A was already in evidence when I made my last offer, and I didn't realize that, so that it was already in evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: I am aware of that.
MR. HULTMAN: All right, sir.
{1534}
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) I am going to show you what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 69-A, and ask you whether or not this weapon has a type of action of the kind that you are just describing?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember seeing the weapon that you are just referring to with anybody earlier that day, had you seen that weapon before that you are talking about right now?
A. That one there?
Q. No, no. I am asking you, the weapon that you have been describing to the jury, do you remember which one of your group we were just talking about that had a rifle in leaving, that had a bolt type of action?
A. Norman?
Q. I am sorry?
A. Talking about Norman?
Q. I am asking you, are you talking about Norman now? I wanted to make sure that there is no confusion. Let's talk about Norman.
Did Norman have a gun when he left?
A. Yeah, he had a rifle.
Q. What do you remember about that rifle?
A. It was long and had a bolt action.
Q. Had you seen that one earlier in the day?
A. Yeah, I think so. I am not sure.
{1535}
Q. Norman was up on the hill with you at the time all the firing was going on, wasn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember what kind of a weapon he had at that time?.
A. Yes, I think it was the same one he had.
Q. Would that be your best recollection?
A. You mean the one he carried out?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah, I think it is the same one he had, yes.
Q. It is the one that had a bolt action?
A. Yes.
Q. Would it be fair for me to conclude that it would be a weapon generally, just in general of a kind like this with a bolt, at least a bolt?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember anything else about the particular weapon that he had during the day, description-wise, that you would recall or that you recall at that time?
A. I don't understand.
Q. Was there anything else you remember about the weapon that he had?
A. No.
Q. All right, very fine.
Now, we mentioned for just a moment Wish, did we not?
A. Yes.
{1536}
Q. He was in the group, was he not?
A. Yes
Q. And I believe you said he didn't have any weapon?
A. No.
Q. All right. Did he carry anything out?
A. He was carrying out a bag.
Q. Could you describe to the jury generally what it was he carried out?
A. It was a bag, about this big (indicating), had a handle on top where you could carry it.
Q. All right. Did any of the rest of you carry that bag at any time?
A. No, just until we got out, you know, started going back to the hill.
Q. Did you know any time during the time what was in that bag?
A. No.
Q. All right. Now, was there anybody else that we haven't discussed up to this point?
A. I think we talked about everybody that was there.
Q. All right. Here there any -- let's make sure now so there isn't any question. We have talked about Leonard, right?
A. Yes.
Q. We have talked about Bob?
A. Yes.
{1537}
Q. You have testified about Dino?
A. Yes.
Q. We have talked about Wish?
A. Yes.
Q. We talked about Norman?
A. Yeah.
Q. And have we talked about Anderson?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, was there any other men or boys that went out with you?
A. Yeah, I went out with them.
Q. And you yourself?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now --
A. (Interrupting) You should have asked me that.
Q. All right. Were there any women or girls that went out with you?
A. Well, right after we were going out we were walking, like I pointed --
Q. (Interrupting) Um-hum.
A. (Continuing) -- we were walking in that direction, when we met them about a hundred yards from camp.
Q. Was this the first time you had now seen them?
A. Yeah.
Q. From the time that you left when you heard the shots?
{1538}
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Now, would you point out, if you can, just generally where it is you now saw the people that you are now referring to, if you can, on the map -- if you can't -- show us wherever it would be?
A. Little bit here (indicating), little bit higher, where the corner is down there (indicating).
Q. little bit higher, a little off Government's Exhibit 71?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where with relationship to the creek would that have been?
A. It was right by the creek there. We asked them why they were coming back, and they told us that they had the roads blocked off and there was no way out. We were just there, and they were coming. We didn't know what to do, you know. That would be the end of us, but we got together and told Jimmy to give himself up because they might hurt him or might shoot him.
Q. Now, when you say "we", were you close to Little Jimmy yourself?
A. Yes.
Q. You were very close to him, were you not?
A. Yeah, I guess so, yeah.
Q. Kind of like an older brother, would that be a fair conclusion on my part?
A. Yeah.
{1539}
Q. And did you have conversation with Little Jimmy at that time?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right, and were you in fact the one who told him what you thought he ought to do?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. So what, if anything, then did Little Jimmy do?
A. Well, he went back to where -- towards the houses, and we heard some shots and we didn't know what to think. We thought he might have got shot, so we stood there, and we sat down and sat in a circle and started praying, you know, all of us, that, you know, they tell us -- ask our creator to help us get out. So we were all there sitting there praying and saw an eagle come down, big eagle, so he came down; and I saw -- then he flew kind of south, southeast, or flew -- I don't know, just followed it across some creeks and we were kind of like bending over real low and could tell the people were out there; and we were just quiet, so you know, we were all scared; and wasn't -- all I was thinking about was our sisters, you know, and we crossed through a road. There was a culvert. It was big enough so you could crawl through, so we crawled through; and we went to this tree -- right across, about 10 yards from the road, 20 yards, there was two trees, two big trees; and some of us went and climbed the tree and we were sitting there, and there was -- Mike and Wish were still in the culvert, told {1540} them to stay there; and there was a plane on top of us, kept flying over, around us; and a couple of cars, you know, two cars went by and saw somebody on 16 looking out the window. They passed, the windows were rolled down, and one passed by this way (indicating).
We were there for awhile, and we thought they saw us; and we thought, you know, didn't know what to think, you know, so we seen that plane was flying on top of usa right above us. guess he knew we were there, so started praying again, just our minds that something happened to that plane, I don't know, that's what I was praying, so the rest of the group were praying, so the plane, you know, took off, flew on over towards Pine Ridge.
So as soon as that plane took off, we started running up the hill. Then we told the sisters, said, "Why don't you go ahead first?" So they took off, and we were down here (indicating), and this road here (indicating), about half a mile down, it was about down -- 14, 15 cars lined up.
So we were running up the hill. They were shooting at us like -- I don't know, just shooting at us. We were out there in the open. We were running up.
Q. How far away were you approximately from the people that you are now talking about?
A. From the road there?
Q. Yes.
{1541}
A. I don't know. About half a mile, I guess. I don't know. It was pretty close then, not too far and not too close.
Q. All right. Let me ask you a question, Norman. You said that you were in the culvert during this discussion, these remarks you have now made, is that right?
A. I wasn't.
Q. You weren't?
A. No.
Q. But some were?
A. Yes.
Q. You were in the trees, is that what you said?
A. Yes.
Q. It was heavy foliage, I believe you said, or something to that effect?
A. What does that mean?
Q. Could somebody from the airplane see you in the trees where you were?
A. Yeah, they could.
Q. What about in the culvert?
A. No.
Q. O.k. Now, did anybody in your group do any shooting at the time that you are now talking about?
A. Yes, all the men, you know, because you know, we weren't worried about ourselves. We were just worried about, you know, our sisters, so we told them to go ahead; and while we were {1542} running up the hill, these go by us like a bee, go by, you know, like bees, you know, going by.
We ran up a hill, a real little hill, with the rest of them there. We told the ladies or women to go ahead and keep running up that hill.
Q. Let me ask you here: Do you recall whether or not Mr. Anderson did any firing during the time that you were going up the hill?
A. No, I don't think so, no.
Q. Do you remember anybody that did any firing, did somebody do some firing when you went up the hill, I mean, in your group?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Do you remember what kind of a weapon Mr. Anderson had?
A. No, I don't know.
Q. All right.
A. And we were there --
Q. (Interrupting) Let me ask you this question: Do you remember the weapon that Joe Stuntz had during the day?
A. You mean the 30-30?
Q. At least when you left the tent area, 30-30, as you described it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see that weapon or one that looked like it any other time later during the times that we are now talking {1543} about?
A. No. No, I don't think so.
Q. All right. O.k.
Now, what, if anything, did you do next?
A. Well, we kind of like spread out, and they were shooting at us. We saw two cars that came off the road, and they -- I don't know, they were just -- they went around the hill we were going up, and were still shooting at the other people down there, so we got up and we ran up that hill.
Then we met the sisters up there and started praying again and that eagle we saw --
Q. (Interrupting) When you say the "sisters", would you tell the jury who these people were so that the jury will know who the sisters were?
A. It was Jean Bordeau, and I just know the other girl by the name of Lynn and Neelock.
Q. So there is three?
A. All right.
Q. And those are the three that lived in the tent area with you, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, what is the next thing that happened -- did you see any other people other than in your group that anybody talked with; from the point we are now talking about, did you run into anybody?
{1544}
A. Yeah. It was getting kind of dark, and two people on a horse -- I don't know who they were, and I don't know -- there was me, Norman, we were looking over where those two cars were at. We were up on the hill here (indicating), they were down here (indicating). I think they were crawling up there and saw two horses and two people, and they are the ones that, you know, helped us out.
Q. All right, and what happened next?
A. So they helped us out and went down the hill, then we just started going into the hills. That's how we got out of there.
Q. All right, and where did you next go, did you go to any house of any kind or in the vicinity of a house?
A. Yeah. Went to the -- up in the hills for about five hours, six hours, long time, I don't know how long, about six hours, and we were walking, and we met this guy. He wasn't wearing shirt. We met him.
Q. Did he talk to anybody?
A. Yeah. He was with Bob, and I think, yeah, Bob gave him shotgun; and then he left. Then we started walking, walked through this big culvert, just walked through it, walked through that, walked for an hour and a half, walked over a bunch of hills, came up to a house; and there was an old man who was living there, I think about 85. He was old, and we asked him if we could stay there; and he could barely understand English, you know, asked him if we could stay there and he said {1545} "Yeah," and he let us stay there.
Q. Do you remember what his name was or --
A. (Interrupting) Yeah, it was -- let me see. I know his name. but I can't -- let's see.
{1546}
Q. Maybe it will come to you as we talk a little more.
Did you all stay there then at the cabin that night?
A. The small cabin, real small.
Q. About what was the size of it?
A. About eight by ten. You know, pretty small. Real small.
Q. Now what did you do with the weapons that night?
A. Soon as we got there, Leonard asked me, "You want to go on security," you know, "You want to, want to go up there and watch out."
Q. Who was it that asked you?
A. Leonard. He didn't tell me, you know, he said, "Do you want to"; I said, "Yeah. I'll go up there." So me and Wish, we went up there for about three hours and we, you know, talking.
Q. Where were your weapons put that night, if you recall?
A. Well, right after security I come in and we switched with Norman. I don't know who the other one was. And I walked into there, saw some guns laying up against the wall.
Q. All right.
Did you see any pistols of any kind?
A. Yeah. Saw two of them.
Q. And would you describe the two pistols that you saw at this time. Let's take them one at a time and describe one and describe the other.
A. One had a short barrel and the other one had a long barrel, {1547} pretty long barrel (indicating).
Q. Did they look somewhat the same except one had a longer barrel and one a shorter barrel?
A. I don't know. It was pretty dark. There was a kerosene lamp, you know. Just saw it. I didn't really look at it or nothing, I just saw it.
Q. Had you ever seen those before?
A. No.
Q. I'm going to show you now what has been marked as Government's Exhibit 31A and Government's Exhibit 35A and ask you whether or not one of these has a long barrel and one has a short barrel?
A. Yeah. One has a short barrel.
Q. And with what little you saw that night, as you've described, did the weapons you saw at that time in some way resemble the two weapons that I now hold in my hands?
A. I don't know. I saw one with a short barrel and I saw one with a long barrel.
Q. All right. And that's as much as you remember, is that right?
A. And I saw a holster but there was no gun in it.
Q. So you saw one handgun with a short barrel, one with a long barrel and a holster. Those are the three things you saw?
A. Yeah. The holster was just rolled up and laying there.
Q. And you had not seen the two guns, the handguns before?
{1548}
A. No. I don't think so.
Q. All right.
Did you see those two handguns at any time after on the table in the small cabin by the kerosene lamp that night? Did you see them the next day or the next day or the next day?
A. No.
Q. Now what if anything did you then do? Did you leave there the next day?
A. Yeah. We left early in the morning, then we started walking. Then we, we hid in some bushes. Walked about three miles from there, four miles. We just laid down staying in some bushes. Stayed there all day. About 10:30 or something like that till it was dark. Then we started walking. Then we did the same thing again the next day, we laid under some bushes.
Q. So is it fair that you did the walking in the nighttime and you stayed in the bushes and the other things in the daytime, is that right?
A. Right. But, yeah. You might say that.
Q. And where did you stay then the second night?
A. We stayed out under some bushes. Then we started walking again. Next evening, came across day, see, we thought we were going to Manderson but we ended up in Pine Ridge.
Q. How was it that you thought you were going to Manderson?
A. Because we thought, old man. We asked him, "How do we get {1549} to Manderson?" And he showed us the way. We were supposed to take this trail but we took this one (indicating).
Q. Did he help you in any way by giving any assistance other than just telling you on how you might find the way to Manderson?
A. It was pretty hard to talk to him. Like, couldn't hardly understand English. And asked, you know, "Give us some food," and he said, "Yeah " He got us some food for one meal, you know. You know, enough for that day.
Q. Did he write anything down for anybody, if you recall?
A. No.
Q. And so where did you stay then the next night?
A. You mean after we left there?
Q. Yes.
A. Out in the bush, under the bushes.
Q. Then where did you stay? Where did you go and stay then the next night or day?
A. Well, right after that we were walking, came upon a place, you know, there was a hill. Then we looked over and it was Pine Ridge. So we didn't know what to do so we started walking this way again (indicating). We saw a house, I don't know, somebody knew who lived there but I don't know who. We went up to the door and asked if we could stay there and they said, "Yeah." So we stayed there that night. The man was kind of fat and his wife, too.
{1550}
Q. And were there any other people there?
A. There was a, I think two daughters there.
Q. And would you describe what the lady looked like in terms of her size?
A. You mean the old lady?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah. Pretty fat. Yeah.
Q. She was fairly heavy, is that right?
A. Yeah. Yeah.
Q. About how old were the daughters would you guess? Would they have been teen-agers?
A. About 16, 17, around there.
Q. Now where did you go from there?
A. Somebody came and gave us a ride and went to Crow Dog's paradise.
Q. Would you indicate who went. When you got a ride, who went? Did you all go in one car at one time?
A. No. Me and Norman and I think it was Wish, Wish or Mike. It was a lady and a man that drove us out. I don't know who the lady was or the man with the car.
Q. Do you know who went in the other group?
A. Yeah. I think it was, there's three groups there went. We were first, I think. The girls were first. Second. Then I think it was Bob, Dino and Leonard got in Crow Dog's. Bob, Dino and Leonard went in one group, is that right?
{1551}
A. Yeah. I think so.
Q. Now I want to take you back to ask you a question or two on leaving the camp and getting to where you are now. Do you remember taking any other objects with you of any kind?
A. Oh, it was a canteen; Yeah.
Q. What happened to the canteen?
A. It got dropped.
Q. would you describe what the canteen looked like to the jury.
A. I don't know. Had stripes on it, on the side.
Q. Was it covered with anything?
A. Yeah. It was some kind of cloth. I don't know.
Q. All right. I'm going to show you marked as Government's Exhibit No. 17. Did you have any water in it when you left?
A. Yeah.
Q. I want you to look at this canteen and see whether or not you recognize it in any way.
A. Yeah.
Q. You do recognize it?
A. Yeah. I think that's the same one.
Q. And at least you left with one like this? Yeah.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yeah.
{1552}
Q. Is there anything you remember about the canteen other than the cloth, the one you had with you on that occasion, specifically?
A. What?
Q. Did it have a strap of the kind that's here?
A. Yeah.
Q. Like this?
A. Yeah. It had a strap.
Q. Was it this size?
A. Yeah. I think that's it.
Q. This general shape. You think this is it. All right.
Where was it that you remember you dropped it or whatever you said you did? Do you remember about where that was or when it was?
A. Yeah. When we started running up, ran about 100 yards. We was running. Yeah. That's when I dropped it about.
Q. Now is that after you went through the culvert and you were going up the hill?
A. Yeah.
MR. HULTMAN: I don't know whether, has 17 been offered yet?
MR. TAIKEFF: It is in evidence.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now where did you go then in the car?
A. I think it was Crow Dog's. Yeah. Crow Dog's.
Q. And how long did you stay about at Crow Dog's?
{1553}
A. Until the sun dance.
Q. And when was the sun dance approximately, if you remember?
A. August.
Q. Early part of August?
A. End of July.
Q. End of July, early part of August?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right.
Did any of the people go to any other place than Crow Dog's that was in your group?
A. Yeah. As soon as we got there, you know, we all split up. And got there, like nothing happened. You know, we were just, went our ways and I think some went to Al's I, I didn't tell Crow Dog and I don't think anybody else told Crow Dog about what happened. I don't think they knew. Just like nothing happened. We just split up.
Q. In fact, did you all discuss whether or not you would tell anybody anywhere along the trail?
A. No.
Q. But did anybody tell the old man? Would that have been Noah Wounded?
A. Yeah. Noah Wounded; yeah.
Q. Did anybody tell Noah, the old man, about the things that had happened earlier on the 26th?
{1554}
A. I don't know. They might have. I don't know.
Q. But you didn't hear anybody tell him?
A. No. I didn't hear anybody.
Q. What about the place that you stayed the second night, the next place that you stayed, did anybody tell them about how you got there in a group under these kind of circumstances lout of the woods and in the night? Did anybody tell those people that you know?
A. I don't know.
Q. You didn't hear anybody tell them anyway?
A. No.
Q. You definitely said that you didn't tell Crow Dog, is that right?
A. No. I didn't tell Crow Dog.
Q. Did anybody tell Crow Dog that you know?
A. No. I don't think so. I didn't hear. No. I don't think so. I don't think they'd tell Crow Dog; no.
Q. Any reason why you wouldn't tell Crow Dog? Because he's a spiritual man, you know. I don't know. Just good man. You know, probably didn't want to get him in trouble. I didn't.
Q. Now you said, I believe you used the name Al, was that right?
A. Yeah. Al.
Q. Would that be Mr. Al Running?
{1555}
A. Yeah.
Q. Who was it that went to Mr. Al Running's place?
A. I don't know. See, as soon as we got there, we got there in the night and I stayed at Leonard's at night and I don't know who went to Al's, but some of the people that we came with, you know, I don't know where they were at.
Q. Did you go to Al's?
A. Yeah. I went to Al's to visit.
Q. We went to Al's? Who was at Al's that was in the group that went out on the 26th from the tent area?
A. Neelock and Dino and Jeannie.
Q. So Dino, was there any other men besides Dino? Did Bob go?
A. Bob was there; yeah.
Q. Bob and Dino were at Al's and you were at Al's, is that right?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, Your Honor.
A. We're like --
THE COURT: Just a moment.
MR. TAIKEFF: I believe that is not what the testimony is.
MR. HULTMAN: If it wasn't, I certainly want it corrected.
MR. TAIKEFF: Could I confer with Mr. Hultman for a moment? {1556}
MR. HULTMAN: Yes. All right.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) When you referred to staying at night at Leonard's, this is up until this time we have been basically talking about when you used the word Leonard, Mr. Peltier, is it not? Leonard was Mr. Peltier. Leonard Peltier. The person that you have been talking about being with on the 26th and going --
A. Yeah.
Q. And so forth. Now you referred to Leonard, staying somewhere at Leonard's.
A. Crow Dog.
Q. This wasn't Mr. Peltier. This is now a new Leonard?
A. Yeah.
Q. This is Leonard Crow Dog's, the medicine man you're talking about?
A. Yeah.
Q. We want it made clear you didn't stay at Leonard Peltier's that night. It was Leonard Crow Dog's. All right.
A. Yeah.
Q. Now I want to ask you now, were there any other people -- did you leave Leonard's and then go to Al Running's, is that the way it happened?
A. You mean Crow Dog's?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah. I just went there to visit.
{1557}
Q. Were there any others that stayed at Al Running's other than, I believe you said Bob and Dino. Was there anybody else that stayed at Crow Dog's that you know?
A. Yeah. Neelock, then Jeannie. Like I stayed at Crow Dog' for awhile, then stayed at Al's. You know, just visiting, every once in awhile.
Q. Is it fair for me to conclude from what you're saying that the people that went from the tent area with you stayed back and forth between Leonard's and Al Running's, is that a fair conclusion for me to draw?
A. What do you mean, "stayed back"?
Q. You said something about you were one place --
A. Yeah. Just visiting.
Q. Visiting back and forth?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know at any other place that any of you stayed during the days following or during the sun dance and the days following Leonard's and Al Running's, do you know any place that anybody in the group stayed specifically?
A. No. I was just -- no. No.
Q. I just have one last question. Has everything that you've told the jury yesterday and today been on the sacred pipe and been the truth?
A. Yeah.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
[Called as a witness by the defense]
{4790}
NORMAN BROWN,
having previously been sworn, testified as follows:
MR. TAIKEFF: May I inquire, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. TAIKEFF: May the witness be advised that that he remains under oath from his last appearance, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Mr. Brown, you are still subject to the oath that you took on your last appearance in this courtroom.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TAIKEFF:
Q Mr. Brown, when you went to Farmington to the AIM convention how old were you?
A. I just turned fifteen.
Q. And did you have a mother or a father living at that time?
A. Two of them. You mean in Farmington or home?
Q. At home. Was your mother living?
A. Yeah. Both of them, yeah.
Q. Both mothers.
A. No. My mother and my dad.
Q. Your mother and father were both living, okay.
A. Yeah.
Q. When you left Farmington you went back to the Pine Ridge Reservation with Mr. Peltier; is that right?
A. Right.
Q. Why did you not go home? Why did you go with him?
A. Well, I told him that I was in Sun Dance and I asked him if {4791} he was in Sun Dance. He said, "Yeah." And I asked him if I could catch a ride there. And he said "Yeah." And I just told him where we were staying. Told him we were staying in Pine Ridge, that they had sweat lodges there and they had ceremonies and he said from there we can go to Crow Dog's Paradise.
Q. And when was the Sun Dance scheduled to happen?
A. July 29th through August 5th.
Q. Now, were you outside the country recently? Outside the United States?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where were you?
A. Canada.
Q. When did you go there?
A. Around October, November, around there.
Q. And when did you come back from Canada?
A. Last month.
Q. Did you come back on your own?
A. Yeah.
Q. And where did you go?
A. To Crow Dog's Paradise.
Q. You have any kind of relationship with Leonard Crow Dog?
A. Yeah.
Q. What is that relationship?
A. Like brothers and like a teacher to me. And, yeah, brothers, teacher.
{4792}
He tells me, you know, sacred things about nature and medicines and stuff like that.
Q. He's a medicine man, isn't he?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know a place called Mission, South Dakota?
A. Yeah.
Q. When were you there last?
A. March, I think it was the 23rd. I'm not sure.
Q. How far is Mission, South Dakota from Leonard Crow Dog's place?
A. About twenty-eight miles.
Q. Generally speaking what were you doing at Leonard Crow Dog's place up to March 23rd from the time you got there until March 23rd?
A. Well, went down there because he was gettin out and take some ceremonies with him and, you know, visit, too.
Q. Did you have any family with him -- any of your family staying with him?
A. No.
Q. Do you have a wife?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where was she at that time?
A. With me.
Q. Had she been in Canada with you?
A. Right.
{4793}
Q. Now, what happened in Mission, South Dakota on March 23rd, as far as this case is concerned?
A. Well, we went to this one store to look for saw blade for wood. We went to this one store.
Q. Can you speak a little louder.
A. We went to this one store and they didn't have one there so we were going down the street inside this T.V. repair shop. And we went by Abourezk store and there I saw two, two agents.
Q. Go on.
A. They were looking at us and in our pickup and we passed them and they were really looking at us. So I thought, you know, right there they recognized me. So we got out of the car and we walked in that T.V. repair shop and Al Running was looking for a radio. He was going to buy a radio. We went in there and I was looking and then I saw these two agents come around by the parking lot. And they pulled up and they were sittin' there for about five minutes.
So I was looking at them. So I, you know, I thought they probably know who I am and so I walked out there, me and my wife, Al Running and Diane Running. We walked out and, like I saw them come out of cars and came behind me and he said, "Mr. Brown," and I was getting inside the car and he goes, "Mr. Brown." He said that about three times and the third time he said, "Mr. Brown." And so I turned around and they said, "We got a subpoena for you for Leonard Peltier's trial in Fargo." {4794} And I told Al, I said, "Do you know these agents, do you know their names, can you get their names?" So he got them and that agent gave me a subpoena and said I had to be over there.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Well, he just told me to get in the car.
Q. Which car, your car?
A. No. FBI car.
Q. And then what happened?
A. I got in the car. Then we went to Pierre, South Dakota and as soon as we got to Pierre we got on a small plane. Then we came here about 4:30.
Q. 4:30 in the afternoon?
A. Yeah. About 4:30, yeah.
Q. Okay. Now, stop at that point. I want to show you a document, I'm handing a photostatic copy of it to Mr. Hultman, show you Defendant's Exhibit 229 for identification and I ask you who gave that to me, if you know?
A. To me?
Q. Who gave that piece of paper to me?
A. A lawyer.
Q. This man over here (indicating), Mr. Maring?
A. Yeah, Mr. Maring.
Q. Do you recognize it?
A. Yeah.
Q. What is it generally?
{4795}
A. A subpoena.
Q. Was that the subpoena you were shown or given on March 23rd in Mission, South Dakota?
A. Yeah.
Q. Okay. Now, you said they brought you up here in a small plane from Pierre, South Dakota; and when you got here where did you go next after you left the airport?
A. You mean from here, this airport?
Q. Yes. Fargo airport, right.
A. There were some agents who were waiting so they walked me to one car.
Q. Can you speak up a little louder, please, so everyone can hear you.
A. I walked to this car and they told me "Get in one of them." So I got in there.
They took me to this hotel or motel the other side of Fargo and they gave me a room.
Q. Do you remember the name of that motel?
A. No.
Q. Does it begin with the letter B?
A. Yeah. It's the Biltmore, yeah, motel or hotel.
Q. What happened there?
A. Well, I got there, they gave me something to eat, then I went to my room.
Q. By the way, before you left Mission did you say anything about {4796} wanting to get something?
A. Yeah. I told the agent that I wanted to have a lawyer and he told me that I'd get one.
Q. Did he say where you could get one?
A. No. I asked him twice, that guy, to see a lawyer. And he ways, "Yeah, you'll get one as soon as you get to Fargo."
Q. All right. Now, I think you told us you were taken to the Biltmore in Fargo and you were fed and up to the time you were fed, but while you were in Fargo, did you say anything about a lawyer again?
A. Yeah. Once, right after we ate. I asked, I said, "Am I going to get a lawyer?" And he said, "Yeah." So I was waiting all evening.
Q. That night did anyone come to see you who said he was a lawyer?
A. No. But Mr. Hultman came over to the room I was at.
Q. And when Mr. Hultman came he tried to ask you questions, right?
A. No. He just came up to me and he asked, he says, "I want you to tell me," you know, he says, "I'm not going to ask you any questions. I want you to tell me about, you know, June 26th again."
Q. All right. Now, you told Mr. Hultman that you wanted a lawyer, right?
A. Yeah.
{4797}
Q. And when you told him that he left immediately, he honored your request, did he not?
A. Right. As soon as I said that to him that, you know, he left.
Q. Now, that left you with whom then?
A. An agent.
Q. Do you know the name of that agent?
A. Mike Nez.
Q. N-e-z?
A. Yeah, N-e-z.
Q. Where is he from?
A. Gallup, New Mexico.
Q. Did you make any phone calls from the motel room?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did a lawyer come to see you that night?
A. No.
Q. Then the next morning did you come to the courthouse?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you testify for the Government?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, you previously testified for the Government in connection with this case, did you not?
A. Yeah. In Cedar Rapids.
Q. At the trial last summer?
A. Yeah.
{4798}
Q. And did you testify before that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where did you testify before that?
A. Sioux Falls, South Dakota.
Q. Was that at a trial or some other kind of proceedings?
A. No. It was a grand jury.
Q. Now, I want to ask you some questions that concern the events leading up to your grand jury testimony. Before you testified in the grand jury did you have any contact with any agents of the FBI?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you know the name of the agent or the names of the agents if there was more than one?
A. There was Victor Harvey. His first name is Olen. And there's another one, J. Gary Adams.
Q. How many times in your life have you met J. Gary Adams before you went to the grand jury?
A. How many times have I met him?
Q. Yes. Before you went to the grand jury.
A. I think it was twice, yeah.
I don't know, I think it was twice. Once -- I don't know, I can't remember.
Q. Well, think about it and see if you can recall how many times.
A. I can't remember. I think it was -- I don't know, I can't {4799} remember.
Q. How much time would you say you spent with Gary Adams before you went to the grand jury?
A. I don't know. A lot of hours, though, it seemed like.
Q. Could you give us some estimate of how many hours is a "lot of hours"?
A. I don't know. It seemed like about four and a half hours. I don't know. It seemed that long.
Q. Did you ever have an interview with him when your mother was present?
A. Yeah.
Q. Where was that?
A. Chinle, Arizona.
Q. Is that where your mother has her home?
A. No. It's Mini Farms about fifteen miles from there.
Q. And who was present at that time?
A. My mom, J. Gary Adams and Victor Harvey.
Q. Would you tell the Court and jury what happened that day or evening.
A. Well, I was at my sister's house in Chinle and tribal cop came and wanted to talk to me. And my mom went out there and talked for about a minute, minute and a half. She came in, she didn't say anything; and told me, you know, this, let's go to this one place. And I said, "Where?" "Let's go over there." So I said, "All right."
{4800}
So I went, got in our truck. Then we went to this trailer and he said, "Let's go inside." And we went in there.
Q. Now, who was in there when you went in there?
A. There was one BIA police. He's an officer. I think there was another one. I'm not sure.
Q. How about the FBI agents?
A. Well, I got there and I knew that they were going to question me about it. So I asked, you know, if I can go out. As I was going out the guy wouldn't let me out. He grabbed me.
Q. He --
A. He wouldn't let me go out of the trailer.
Q. Did they tell you you were under arrest?
A. No.
Q. Who stopped you from going out?
A. Arthur Newman. He's a BIA police officer.
Q. Was Gary Adams there?
A. No. He wouldn't let me out and he told me to wait there for about, for a while. And we waited there and he said, "Some agents are coming in, they're flying in." So we waited, we waited there, me and my mom and we were waiting. Some agents came and there was three of them came in. And the other guy, he's from Flagg Staff, and they came in. They showed us their names, their badges, and showed my mom their badges and their names. And I told my mom to get their names down, {4801} and she got them down.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Well, they said, they gave me a, my rights, or said something about my rights. I can't remember. They asked me if I understand them and I said, "Yeah." And they asked me, you know, where I was on June 26th, and I told them, you know, that I didn't know, you know.
I gave them a piece of paper and on that piece of paper it said that I wasn't suppose to talk to any law enforcement people or BIA, FBI or state patrol or any of them. That paper said that, and on that paper the guy, I went to Jack Schwartz, he's a lawyer and he typed that up for me and I gave that to them and they wouldn't let me call --
Q. I didn't hear what you said.
A. They wouldn't let me call a lawyer.
Q. I see. When they read your rights to you did they tell you that you had a right to consult with a lawyer?
A. Yeah.
Q. And then you tried to call a lawyer and they wouldn't let you?
A. Yeah.
Q. Go on, tell us what else happened.
A. Well, started asking me questions and I kept saying that I didn't want to talk to them. First they were nice, kind of nice. Asked me if I wanted a cigarette and coffee. Told them, {4802} no, that I wanted a lawyer. So they started getting kind of mad because I wouldn't answer their questions.
{4803}
A. nd Victor Harvey told me, he said, "We knew you were there," and he said, "If you don't answer our questions we can indict you, we can charge you with those two murders of those two FBI agents." And I was just sitting there thinking of my mom. She knew what was happening.
Q. Where was she?
A. Right beside me here. I don't know. She freaked out. She knew what was happening. She kind of tapped me and I looked over there and she said, "Why don't you tell them." I said, "I don't want to tell." Ask the agent what was going on and the agent told her I was involved in the shooting with the agents and he said, "I knew you done it," like that. And they said that then "I know." Still didn't say anything.
So that guy Victor Harvey says, "We can indict you," he said, "for those two murders," and he said, "We even had a gun that you had, you know, that killed one of them." He said that to me. And my mom, she was crying. She didn't know what to think. Kept telling me to say something, talk.
So I was sitting there and I won't say anything to them. Victor Harvey got mad again and he said something else too.
Q. Is it something you don't want to say in court?
A. Yeah.
Q. Was it a bad word?
A. It wasn't a bad word, just what he said. He said, you know, {4804} "If you don't talk to us," you know, "you might never walk the earth again."
Q. I see. Go ahead.
A. And what I thought was, you know, put me in jail and my mom started crying. They told my mom that "You won't see your son again for a long time." "You won't see your family again." And I said something that got them mad and then he said, "We'll do everything in our power, do everything in my power that you go to jail if you don't answer our questions." And he told me that I won't see my mom for a long time. My mom told me to talk to them, to lawyers, I mean, to FBI agents.
Q. Go ahead.
A. She was crying and she just told me to talk.
Q. Go ahead. You can continue testifying.
MR. HULTMAN: If you would ask a question he might have an opportunity to respond.
MR. TAIKEFF: The question is what happened.
A. Okay.
A. nd they said that to me, then my mom told me that she didn't want to see me in jail and told me to think of her and my brothers and sisters, my family. And I started answering their questions.
Q. How did they ask their questions of you?
A. They say, "We know you saw this and saw that. People tell us, somebody told us that you saw this." I said, you know, "Who {4805} told you this," and they said they couldn't tell.
Q. How did you feel while this was going on?
A. Well, I wasn't going to say anything but my mom, she was crying and everything and I didn't want to do --
Q. You were just past 15 years of age at this time?
A. Right.
Q. You knew that Gary Adams and Victor Harvey were from the FBI, did you not?
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember the date when this took place?
A. September somewhere. September 23 and the 3rd.
Q. Earlier that month you had had some kind of an encounter with the FBI, isn't that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Would you tell the Court and jury about that.
A. Well, it was at Crow Dog's one night. Me and my wife were staying this one place and next we woke up there was these agents running all over the place. There was a lot of them.
Q. How were they dressed?
A. Dressed like Viet Nam, army fatigues and those greens, you know, they were in Viet Nam. Saw some carrying M16s. Looked like that, you know. And sawed off shotguns and bulletproof vests and could hear choppers, too.
Q. A what?
A. Chopper.
{4806}
Q. Helicopter?
A. Yes.
Q. Yes.
A. And, you know, all around the camp. They just came in about 5:30, around there. It was pretty early.
Q. How many agents did you see that day?
A. I don't know. About 80. 80 to 100. Around there.
A. nd we heard people running by and I looked out and one of them saw me and said "All right, come out with your hands up." I came out and they pulled back their guns and said, they cocked it, I guess, and I came out and said, "Anybody in there with you?" Said "Yeah." "Tell them to get out." So told my wife to come out and we came out and they told me, you know, "Get on the grass," so I laid down. They searched me and her. Then, you know, they had M16s and told us to get up and they pushed us with those M16s and said, "Why don't you go over where the women and kids are." They said that to us.
We started walking where all the women and kids were at and were standing there. There was a lot of FBI agents around, around where the women and kids were.
Q. Go ahead.
A. And, well, they were just all over. There were a lot of them. And kids were crying.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I haven't entered an objection up till now. I do object on the grounds of any relevancy of {4807} any kind.
MR. TAIKEFF: Foundation testimony concerning state of mind at the time of testifying before the grand jury, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: This is an event six months before. Isn't that right, Counsel?
MR. TAIKEFF: That's correct, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: I renew my objection.
MR. TAIKEFF: It's actually four months before I think.
MR. HULTMAN: I believe the dates are September 23rd and January 13th to be exact.
MR. TAIKEFF: Four months, Your Honor.
MR. HULTMAN: I object on the grounds of relevancy.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) When you went to the grand jury in January, did the experience you just told us about have any affect upon what you did in that grand jury room? Yes or no?
A. Yes.
MR. HULTMAN: Same objection, Your Honor.
MR. TAIKEFF: I don't know whether I should ask the next question, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I know you do not. I was considering the objection.
MR. TAIKEFF: I didn't mean to interrupt Your Honor's consideration. I wasn't sure whether I should go forward.
{4808}
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) Tell the Court and jury what was the nature of the effect of that experience that you just told us about had upon you when you went into the grand jury and what you did inside that grand jury room?
A. You know, there weren't, you know they meant --
Q. They what?
A. They meant what they did and, you know, they were for real. They meant what their word was. You know, I mean like I don't know just --
Q. Explain what you meant by the statement "they were for real."
A. Like, they were serious, you know. They meant it. You know they were serious, you know. They didn't, I don't know. They were serious what -- they, you know, I thought they weren't messing around. They meant what they were doing.
Q. Did you consider the things they said to you when they spoke with you and your mother?
A. Yeah.
Q. In the grand jury you testified that you saw Leonard and Dino and Bob down by the cars, isn't that a fact?
A. Right.
MR. HULTMAN: I object to any further leading questions of this kind.
MR. TAIKEFF: That's a foundation question.
{4809}
MR. HULTMAN: I understand. When they get all done it will still be foundation.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) Did you ever see Leonard and Dino and Bob down by the cars on June 26th, 1975?
A. No.
Q. Why did you tell that to the grand jury?
A. Well, they were, you know, back there when they first came, when I was telling about, they said, "We know you saw this and saw that."
Q. Specifically. Be specific. They said that they claimed --
MR. HULTMAN: Just a minute, Your Honor. I object. We're about now to clearly get a leading question.
MR. TAIKEFF: I was not going to ask a leading question. I was going to put it in terms of him telling us what they said they knew he knew.
THE COURT: You may ask the question without suggesting the answer.
MR. TAIKEFF: All right. Thank you.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) You just told us. Tell us specifically what did they say to you they had heard or knew that you knew?
MR. HULTMAN: That assumes that that was the case, Your Honor, and that's the very reason I objected to the leading.
MR. TAIKEFF: That was his very testimony before. Testified that they told him that someone told them certain {4810} things and then they repeated those things and I want him to say what those things were.
THE COURT: He may answer. You may answer that.
A. They told me, they said, "We know you saw those guys down there." Said, "Who?" They said, "I don't know." They said, "We know you know." They said, "Somebody told us that you saw Bob, Dino and Leonard down there," and I didn't know what to think after, you know, my mom, I just told them I saw them down there.
Q. Did the FBI ever mention to you the names of the people that they thought killed the agents when they were interviewing you the first time they interviewed you?
MR. HULTMAN: Object on the grounds of being leading.
THE COURT: Overruled.
A. I don't understand your question.
MR. HULTMAN: And further on the grounds that the question has been asked and answered.
MR. TAIKEFF: It's been answered? Could I have the answer read back, Your Honor, please. I didn't seem to hear it.
MR. HULTMAN: The testimony just previously to the last question.
MR. TAIKEFF: I'd like to have the answer read back then because I apparently missed it. I must have been looking at my notes and I --
MR. HULTMAN: I have no objection to the question, Your {4811} Honor, as long as it's not leading.
THE COURT: Proceed.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) When the agents first interviewed you, did they tell you who the murderers were?
MR. HULTMAN: Same objection.
A. No. They just told us that "We know you saw those guys down there."
A. I'm holding in my hands Government Exhibit 34AA in evidence. As you sit there now do you know what kind of a weapon this is?
A. You mean right now?
Q. Do you know now?
A. Yeah. Now I know.
Q. What is it?
A. It's an AR15.
Q. In September of 1975 did you know the name of that weapon?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever have any discussion with the FBI about the name of weapons?
A. Yeah. I told them "That that gun there," I said --
Q. I'm sorry. I didn't hear the beginning of your answer.
A. "That gun."
Q. Yes. What did you tell them or did they tell you. That's what I'm trying to find out.
{4812}
A. They asked me, you know, "What kind of guns," you know, they had and they asked me about Leonard. Says, "It looks like an M16," and kept saying "was it M16"? I said, "I don't know." I said, "Looks like one." Kept saying, "It was one, wasn't it?" I said, "I don't know. Looks like one." Kept saying that and making me, I don't know, so many questions.
Q. When you testified before the grand jury that you saw Leonard and Bob and Dino down by the agents' cars, where did you get that information from?
A. FBI.
Q. Did you ever see that on June 26th, 1975?
A. No.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, at this time I offer Defendant's Exhibit 229 both on the testimony of this witness and because it is a copy of an official court paper in this case.
MR. HULTMAN: Well, I object, Your Honor, that it has no materiality of any kind. The same as any other subpoena in this trial.
MR. TAIKEFF: I believe it does, if Your Honor will look at it I think Your Honor will perceive it was served on the 23rd when he was illegally taken into custody.
MR. HULTMAN: If it please the Court, if we're going to discuss matters let's not discuss them before the jury. I request we approach the bench.
{4813}
THE COURT: You may.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench;)
MR. HULTMAN: About illegal matters.
MR. MARING: May I be allowed to approach the bench also?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. HULTMAN: On your record, Your Honor, I'm getting sick, very sick about illegal acts on the part of the government.
MR. TAIKEFF: Is it proper to serve somebody on the 23rd with a subpoena returnable on the 14th and take him into custody against his will? Is that not an illegal act?
MR. HULTMAN: Counsel, I'm referring to your conduct before this jury. That's the issue I'm talking about. I want it made clear on the record if you've got matters to take up out of the presence of the jury you do it. Don't do it and prejudice the jury any longer.
MR. TAIKEFF: What do you think you're doing right now by yelling? You can be heard six blocks away.
MR. SIKMA: So can you, Mr. Taikeff.
THE COURT: What's the issue before the Court?
MR. HULTMAN: I'm objecting, Your Honor, first of all, to his conduct in front of the jury. That's the first thing.
Secondly, I'm objecting and have a right to object and {4814} I did object to the entrance of this exhibit on materiality and then without a speech on the part of Counsel in front of the jury about the conduct of the government.
MR. TAIKEFF: You've got to fight fire with fire, Mr. Hultman.
MR. HULTMAN: I don't have any response.
THE COURT: What is the materiality of this exhibit?
MR. TAIKEFF: This witness was intimidated by illegally being taken into custody upon the authority of a subpoena which it was not even valid because it was served on the 23rd of March, returnable on March 14th and even if it were returnable after the 23rd -- just a moment.
I'm looking for the 23rd of March.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, he testified that it was served upon him on the 23rd and I think the government will concede that his memory is correct. It's this date which is important, although it doesn't matter what date was there, you cannot take a person into custody on a subpoena. A subpoena is not a warrant of arrest.
MR. SIKMA: That's not proof.
THE COURT Again we're getting into collateral issues whether or not he was taken into custody and I'm not going to permit that.
MR. TAIKEFF: This witness testified to the prosecution.
THE COURT: You have been permitted to bring out {4815} from him the facts as to what happened. We're not going to get into a legal determination as to whether or not he was taken into custody.
MR. TAIKEFF: He's already testified he was taken into custody.
THE COURT: Testified he accompanied the agents. Now whether that was being taken into custody or not is something this Court doesn't have to determine at this time. It's irrelevant to these proceedings.
MR. TAIKEFF: Doesn't it reflect upon his state of mind when he testified on direct examination for the government?
MR. HULTMAN: You already postulated, Counsel, he told the truth. You've said that 16 times in the courtroom at least this afternoon.
THE COURT: Objection to 229 is sustained.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, could I have an instruction as to the remarks that Counsel made in front of this jury just a moment ago? I think that's highly prejudicial.
MR. TAIKEFF: When you stop signaling witnesses I won't say anything like that.
THE COURT: Counsel may proceed.
{4816}
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the presence and hearing of the jury:)
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) On March 23 when you were brought here via Pierre, South Dakota, did you want to leave Mission, South Dakota?
A. No.
Q. Where was your wife then?
A. She was with me.
Q. Is she pregnant?
A. Yeah.
Q. Was she pregnant then?
A. When? You mean --
Q. (Interrupting) On March 23rd.
A. Yeah.
Q. When is the baby expected?
A. July 22nd.
Q. Why did you go with the agents?
A. Because I always think about my wife and my boy.
Q. Did they tell you that you had to go with them?
A. Well, they just told me to go, and I thought, you know, I had no choice.
Q. Did they show you any arrest warrant?
A. No. I asked them if I was arrested.
Q. What did they say?
A. They said "no".
{4817}
Q. Did you look at the piece of paper that you had?
A. Yeah, and I asked them to read me my rights and they said I wasn't arrested.
Q. He said you weren't arrested so he wouldn't read you your rights?
A. Yes.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have no further questions.
RECROSS EXAMINATION by MR. HULTMAN:
Q Norman, let us start with something that is maybe fresher in your mind than some other things.
Do you recall counsel asking you some question about you and I meeting on the night that you came here that he has just talked to you about, do you remember that night?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I am being correct and I am being honest and I am being fair, that when I met you, that without discussing anything about what took place, I asked you whether or not you had any questions that you wanted to ask me, is that a fair and truthful --
A. (Interrupting) Say that again.
Q. Isn't the first thing that I said to you and continually asked you when I met with you on the night that counsel is talking about, "Do you have any things that you would like to ask me?"
{4818}
A. Yeah.
Q. And didn't we spend the time that you and I were together, me answering the questions that you had to ask of me?
A. Yeah.
Q. Including when you asked whether or not you could have a lawyer?
A. Right.
Q. Now, did I at any time during that evening discuss with you any of the facts or what might be your testimony that you gave the next day here in the courtroom?
A. I don't understand.
Q. All right. Did you and I at any time that evening talk about any of the specific events that did or did not take place on the 26th of June, 1975?
A. No.
Q. There isn't any question in your mind about that at all, is there?
A. No. You didn't ask me no questions about it, the June 26th.
Q. All right. Now, did you tell me at that time that you had any idea but the fact that you were a witness that was called and would be a witness called to testify in this trial, you understood that you were to be a witness at that time in this trial, did you not?
A. Yeah.
{4819}
Q. And then you were a witness the next day, were you not?
A. Yeah, but --
Q. (Interrupting) Now, did you the next day testify to things that you saw and you observed truthfully and honestly before this jury?
A. Yeah.
Q. And anything that happened the night before or the day before concerning the FBI with a subpoena or whatever counsel asked you about, it didn't have any impact on what your testimony was that day here before this jury, did it?
A. What do you mean?
Q. You told the truth, did you not?
A. Yeah.
Q. And there isn't any question in your mind that as to what you said that day before this jury, that what you told them is true, is there any question at all about that?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did you say the things that day to the jury because the FBI had forced you at some time to say it?
A. They didn't force me, but they just gave me a lot of questions.
Q. I an asking you about the testimony that you gave here before this jury. Let's just talk about that for a moment, o.k.?
A. You are asking me if they forced me to testify?
{4820}
Q. I am asking you if there was anyone who forced you in any way to give and say what it was you said here in this courtroom before these people here when you were previously here, did anybody force you to say anything that day?
A. No.
Q. You did this because it was the truth, is that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And there isn't any question in your mind, sitting here now, that what you told them that day is the truth, is it?
A. That day I was here?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, let us go back in the beginning, all of these things counsel has asked you about, you indicated that you were at Crow Dog's Paradise, and you talked about some events that took place there.
Which of the people that were in Tent City or at Jumping Bull's on the 26th were there at Crow Dog's with you?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, beyond the scope of the direct and irrelevant as well.
MR. HULTMAN: Well, counsel went into the various reasons, your Honor, as to why certain events followed; and I think this is within the scope of that examination.
THE COURT: He may answer the question.
A. Would you ask that again?
{4821}
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Who were the people that were at Crow Dog's with you that were with you on the 26th of June when you were at Jumping Bull's, 1975?
A. Everybody that was there except Wish.
Q. Was Leonard there?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, let us go to the first time that anyone asked you from law enforcement about what happened or what you knew about the 26th of June, 1975; and is that the day that you talked about that happened down in Arizona?
A. You mean when the FBI came?
Q. Yes, that's the first time, is it not, that anybody from law enforcement --
A. (Interrupting) Yeah.
Q. (Continuing) -- talked to you about anything that may or may not have happened on the 26th of June?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact that during all the time that you told or answered questions about what took place on that day, that your mother was seated right beside you?
A. You mean when they asked me questions, my ma was beside me?
Q. There isn't any question about that, is there?
A. No.
Q. You were 15 at the time, were you not?
{4822}
A. Right.
Q. In fact, it was your mother that brought you there, was it not?
A. Yeah.
Q. You didn't come on your own?
A. Well, I knew I was going.
Q. You didn't want to come, in fact, did you?
A. No.
Q. In fact, I believe you indicated even to your mother to get those names of the FBI's, isn't that what you said on direct examination?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, your mother didn't have any qualms about bringing you, did she?
A. She didn't know what was happening there. She didn't know why they were there.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact that after there was discussion about your rights in the presence of your mother, she had some questions to ask about it, did she not?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Well, didn't she ask some questions of the FBI and the BIA agent who was there at that particular time concerning rights?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you remember her asking about the fact that your age {4823} was 15 and that she felt that she should be there because she was your mother and you were 15?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember the FBI asking and answering specific questions that she asked concerning what your rights were?
A. Can you say that again?
Q. Well, isn't it a fact that your mother asked about what rights you had at that time?
A. Yeah, I guess so. I don't know.
Q. And didn't the FBI explain all of the things that you know very well at this particular time it has to do with rights?
A. Yeah. They told me about my rights, yeah.
Q. And they told your mother too, did they not?
A. Yeah, they told my mom.
Q. Now, isn't it a fact, Norman, that both you and your mother, knowing that you had a right to have an attorney present and after being explained, and that you didn't have to talk to the agents in any way, and if you wanted an attorney they would get one, that you indicated that you were willing to go ahead and tell whatever it is you knew, to tell the truth?
MR. TAIKEFF: I have to object to the form of that question because it includes some consideration of his mother's state of mind on the subjects of a lawyer. He is not competent to answer.
MR. HULTMAN: I will only deal first with the witness.
{4824}
THE COURT: The objection to the form of the question is sustained. You may rephrase your question.
MR. HULTMAN: Yes.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Isn't it a fact that after you were explained all of those things and were asked whether or not you were willing to go ahead and tell the truth about whatever it is that you knew, that you replied "yes", that you were willing?
A. No. My lawyer first -- I gave them that piece of paper.
Q. And where did this piece of paper come from -- you were 15 years old, were you not?
A. Yeah. Right after June 5th at Crow Dog's, I went to Rapid City.
Q. Wasn't it a form letter sent out by Mr. Ellison who just -- wasn't his name on it -- that just walked out of the door, it was a form letter, was it not?
A. What do you mean?
Q. It was a letter which is produced in many numbers?
A. No.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I object to that as being totally irrelevant. The letter apparently is not in dispute. It existed. Who prepared it is irrelevant.
THE COURT: Sustained. Produce the letter.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Well, wasn't it just --
A. (Interrupting) It was in the letter. They gave it to me. I asked them if there was any way they could help me, and {4825} they typed it out, Jack Schwartz.
Q. Well, why did you -- when and where was it that you asked for somebody to help you?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, irrelevant. His consultations with counsel are irrelevant to the issue on this matter. In any event, he has the right not to answer that question under the attorney-client privilege.
THE COURT: That is a right for the witness to decide.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have a right to object if he is not being fully advised of his rights at this particular time.
THE COURT: I am not sure that counsel was involved.
MR. TAIKEFF: He said Jack Schwartz as his attorney. He consulted with him. I believe he said that on direct examination.
THE COURT: I did not hear that. The objection is sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Do you remember the request that your mother made, not what was in her mind, but the specific request that your mother made after the discussion concerning what your rights were, do you remember her requesting that a certain person come, do you remember that; do you remember asking that Mr. Arthur Newmann come and join and be present?
A. I don't know. I don't remember.
{4826}
Q. You wouldn't dispute that?
A. What do you mean?
Q. You are not saying it is not the case, you don't remember?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection on the grounds of competence. If he doesn't remember, he couldn't dispute it or agree to it.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, let me ask you just one simple question, Norman: Wasn't it in fact your mother all through this interview who urged you to tell the truth, and that was the reason for the statements, the answers, the story that you told at that time?
{4827}
A. What do you mean? I mean, could you restate that so I can understand the question?
Q. Wasn't it your mother's urging for you to tell the truth during this time that we are talking about is the reason you said the things that you did say?
A. What do you mean? I mean, I don't understand your question.
Q. I'm going to ask you one more time.
Isn't it the truth, Norman, that the reason that you said the things that you said that day was because for the first time somebody was asking you to tell what you knew happened on the 26th of June?
A. Yeah. She told me that. But they weren't true.
Q. What you said that day wasn't true?
A. You mean that first, the first time they came?
Q. That's what we're talking about, the first time.
A. Yeah. Right.
Q. So what you said that day you are saying wasn't the truth?
A. Right. This is what I thought they wanted to hear because they asked me those questions. Victor Harvey.
Q. You didn't think it was important for you on that day with your mother present and her urging you to tell the truth just to tell whatever the truth was; is that right?
MR. MARING: Your Honor, may I talk to the witness?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. MARING: Should I come up there or can he come {4828} down here?
THE COURT: Witness may step down to confer with counsel.
(Mr. Maring conferred with the witness.)
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Now, I want you to think very carefully in response to the next question that I'm going to ask you. How is it that you explain that it was the FBI on that day that mentioned there was an AR-15 in the hands of Leonard Peltier rather than you, when in fact the FBI agents were there didn't even know that such a weapon existed or was in anybody's hands?
MR. TAIKEFF: Objection, Your Honor. That assumes a fact not in evidence.
MR. HULTMAN: That assumes a fact that is in the record.
MR. TAIKEFF: May we note, may we know the basis of that statement, Your Honor?
MR. HULTMAN: The basis for that statement is the fact that there is no knowledge of any kind of an AR-15 even being in existence at that particular time.
MR. TAIKEFF: Are we talking about September 22, or October 10th?
MR. HULTMAN: I'm talking about September 22nd.
MR. TAIKEFF: Does the Government mean to say, Your Honor, that they did not find the .223 cartridge in the trunk {4829} by that time? Is that what Mr. Hultman is saying in this courtroom?
MR. HULTMAN: I am saying an AR-15. That is what I am referring to.
MR. TAIKEFF: Doesn't that cartridge get fired from an AR-15 that you found in the trunk?
MR. HULTMAN: At a later time according to the report it was so determined, Counsel.
MR. TAIKEFF: Well, what did it look like, a Pepsi-Cola bottle when it was found in the trunk?
THE COURT: Just a moment. The jury will disregard any comments by counsel which are obviously meant for the jury's attention. And I'm referring specifically to the dialogue that just took place between counsel. That was obviously designed simply to have the jury hear the argument.
It is irrelevant at this point in the trial with reference to this question pending before this witness.
MR. HULTMAN: May I continue, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may proceed.
Q. (By Mr. Hultman) Norman, it was in fact you that stated that day that Leonard Peltier had an AR-15, was it not, because you had seen him with an AR-15?
A. What do you mean. I said it was, looked like an M-16. I didn't say it was an AR-15.
Q. All right. It was, you then said that it was an M-16 or {4830} looked like an M-16; isn't that right?
A. Well, that was after they told me that I knew who were down there. They asked me what kind of guns they were carrying and I -- they asked me about Leonard and I told them that he had one that looked like an M-16.
Q. Now, didn't you indicate the same thing at a subsequent time when you -- did you at a time not too much later sign a statement which indicated the same things that were the statements that you made at the time we're talking about now. Did you later sign an actual statement that told about the things that you had said on the occasion that we're just now discussing?
A. Would you say that again?
Q. Did you in fact sign a statement a little bit later concerning the matters and the things that we have just now been testifying about?
A. Yeah. It was --
Q. And I'm going to show you now what has been marked a similar copy as Defendant's Exhibit 110 and I am going to show you the original document itself and ask you whether or not you recognize the signature that is thereon?
A. Yeah.
Q. And whose signature is that?
A. Mine.
Q. And do you remember the time and the occasion when you signed that particular signature?
{4831}
A. Yeah.
Q. And was that on Chinle on the 10th of October in 1975?
A. Might have been. I mean, the date, I don't know, I don't remember the date.
Q. Well, if you were to look at the document itself would that help you in any way?
A. What do you mean?
Q. If you were to look at it would it give you an, or refresh your memory as to approximately what time it was?
A. Yeah. The date's up there and the time.
Q. And do you recall in having looked at it that that was approximately when it was, both date and time?
A. No. Just remember that second time. I don't remember the date, though.
Q. All right. Do you remember that it was sometime around 12:05 P.M., around noon sometime?
A. Yeah. Around noon.
Q. All right. And were the persons present who are indicated on there in addition to yourself?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Well, were the people that were there with you the same people as you have testified to earlier and that appear on this particular document, the agents?
A. Are these the people that were there?
Q. That's what I asking you.
{4832}
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. And did you likewise initial all of the various pages that are on that particular document?
A. Yeah. They told me to.
Q. And did you in fact use your initials at some places were some corrections of one kind or another were made?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Do you remember counsel asking you at an earlier time about possibly some corrections and your initials appearing on a similar document to this? A copy that he showed you. For example, do you remember making these initials right here (indicating)?
A. I don't remember.
Q. All right. Now, did you then at a later time appear before a grand jury?
A. Yup.
Q. And outside of the two times I have discussed with you now were there any other times that agents had talked to you about the events on the 26th of June, 1975?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Well, counsel asked you how many times, or words to this effect, that the agents had seen you and talked to you; and I don't remember exactly what you said, but I'm wondering whether or not, and that's why I'm asking you the question, were there any times other than these two occasions up to now we're going {4833} to talk about the grand jury?
A. No.
Q. It was those two occasions; isn't that right?
A. Yeah.
Q. And those were the only times?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right. Did your mother go with you to the grand jury?
A. Yup.
Q. And was she with you outside of the time that you were in the grand jury itself to talk to you and visit with you and discuss anything with you that you wanted?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, were there any FBI agents in the grand jury at the time you told the things that you told them in the grand jury?
A. I don't think so.
Q. Just a group of people, was it not?
A. Yeah.
Q. And somebody asking you some questions?
A. Yeah.
Q. Now, I'm going to ask you, Norman, whether or not you remember being asked this question at the grand jury. Do you remember being asked the question: "Did you see anyone other than the two agents go down towards the cars at that time?"
Do you remember being asked that question?
A. Yeah, I think so.
{4834}
Q. All right. And then your answer: "What?"
A. nd then the question: "Did you see anyone go down, walk down toward the cars," and do you remember what your answer then was?
A. You mean to that question?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah. That I saw Bob, Dino and Leonard down there.
Q. All right. Your answer was "Yes" and the question was: "Would you tell the grand jury as closely as you can what you recall about what happened and who the individuals were that went down there?"
Do you remember that was the next question then?
A. Might have been. I don't remember the questions.
Q. All right. And do you recall an answer, your answer then which was substantially what you just said a second ago and in a little greater detail, "Well, I was sitting by the propane tanks. Then I got up, I was looking on both sides of the houses. That house then I saw two people go down. I think one was Peltier and the other was Butler this way."
That was what you said to the grand jury in response to that general question. "Would you tell the grand jury as closely as you can what you recall about what happened and who the individuals were that went down there?"
Isn't that a fair conclusion? That is what you said at that time?
{4835}
A. Yeah. I guess so, yeah.
Q. There weren't any FBI men in there at that time, were there?
A. I don't know.
Q. Your mother was there outside, was she not?
A. Who?
Q. Your mother?
A. Yeah.
Q. You also -- do you remember being asked this question: "What happened at the time you saw three people down at the bottom of the hill by the agents?"
Do you remember giving any answer of any kind to a question of that kind?
A. No, I don't remember.
Q. This is after you had gone ahead and in response to that I do show the record fairly, that you indicated in response to a question that you said then: "I looked around again and the hood was up and then I saw three of them down there. And I don't know who the other one was."
"Question: Did you at one time indicate who you thought it was or who it might have looked like?"
A. nd your answer: "Yes." And then the question to you: "Who was it?"
Do you remember what your answer was to the grand jury?
A. No.
{4836}
Q. Would you argue with me at all if I said the answer was: "I think it was Robideau."
Do you remember saying that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Now, then I get to the question I just asked so that I wasn't misleading anyone. The question was: "What happened at that time that you saw three people down at the bottom of the hill by the agents?"
Do you remember what your response was to that question?
A. No.
Q. Would you argue with me if I indicated the answer, the record was: "I heard some shots, I think it was three, or was it? Two or three shots, it was three shots."
Do you remember giving an answer of that kind?
A. Yeah, I remember.
Q. Do you remember the only time that I talked to you other than the brief moments on the night we've already discussed in Cedar Rapids, do you remember that occasion?
A. You mean that night before we left?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember where it was that I met you and who was with you?
A. No.
Q. Wasn't it with your mother?
{4837}
A. Might have been. I don't -- I can't remember.
Q. You wouldn't say it wasn't your mother if I indicated to you that it was?
A. I don't know.
Q. She came with you, did she not?
A. Cedar Rapids?
Q. Yes.
A. Yeah.
Q. And at that time when I discussed some matters with you did your mother at any time indicate anything about the FBI at any time mistreating you when she was in your presence? Do you remember ever saying anything of that kind?
A. What?
Q. Do you remember when you and your mother and I were together her indicating anything in any way that anybody had mistreated you at any time?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Did your mother on that occasion, if you recall, make any complaints of any kind concerning any agents of the FBI?
A. No. What she thought was after this, you know, she thought I wouldn't have to go to jail, you know, after this. This won't bug me no more is what she thought.
Q. Norman, do you think that it's important that we tell the things that we saw and we observed?
A. Are you trying to tell me that I saw them down there?
{4838}
Q. No, no.
A. That's what you're trying to say. I didn't see them down there. I'm saying that because the agents said that they said we know you saw this, we know you saw that.
Q. My only question to you is just this if I might restate it to you.
A. Yeah.
Q. It's important that we honestly tell the things we saw and observed, isn't that a fair --
A. Yeah. I did, too. I told the truth.
Q. Would you now just please respond to my question. I'm just speaking in general terms. It is, and you feel strongly about that, do you not?
A. Yes. It seems like, like you're calling me a liar. It seems that way to me. And I swore on that pipe there, sacred pipe.
Q. No, my question, Norman, is this: Why is it then that even on the first occasion when somebody wanted to ask you truthfully what happened there that you asked your mother to take the names of the FBI agents?
A. Yeah. That I told her to get the names of the agents.
MR. HULTMAN: I have no further questions.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. TAIKEFF
Q. I think in response to a question from Mr. Hultman you said that Leonard Peltier was at Crow Dog's. Did you say that?
{4839}
A. Yeah.
Q. What date did you think you were being asked about?
A. Could you say that again?
Q. You were talking about a raid on Crow Dog's. Do you know the date that that occurred?
A. September 5th.
Q. Was Leonard Peltier there on September 5th?
A. No.
Q. How long ago had he left there?
A. About a week, two weeks before that. I'm not sure. I think it was a week.
Q. When Leonard was at Crow Dog's that summer do you know what he was doing there?
{4840}
A. Yeah.
Q. What was he doing there?
MR. HULTMAN: I object, Your Honor. This is beyond the scope of redirect.
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I'm trying to ascertain the date through this inquiry of his departure.
THE COURT: Very well. You may answer the question.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) What was Leonard Peltier doing at Crow Dog's on the Rosebud Reservation that summer when you were there?
A. Sun dance together. Sun dance.
Q. What dates did you say were the dates of the sun dance that summer?
A. July 29th through August 5th.
Q. And do you recall, did he stay throughout the full sun dance?
A. Yeah.
Q. And do you recall how long after the sun dance was over he left the Rosebud?
A. Would you say that again.
Q. Yes. The sun dance ended on August 5th. How long did he stay after the sun dance?
A. About, don't know, about two weeks.
Q. Now Mr. Hultman pointed out the fact which is not in dispute that your mother was at your side.
A. Uh-huh.
{4841}
Q. When you were being interviewed by Agent Adams, Nez and Doyle. What was your mother doing during that interview?
A. She was crying.
Q. Now Mr. Hultman asked you a number of questions that were put to you on the grand jury and he also said to you, "Did you give certain answers," and he read your answers and you said basically "Yes, I was asked those questions and I gave those answers." Was that testimony true?
A. No.
Q. Were you afraid of the FBI when you were before the grand jury?
A. Yeah.
Q. When you came out of the FBI, I'm sorry, when you came out of the grand jury --
MR. TAIKEFF: Your Honor, I believe I have to correct myself. I may have misstated a question and put a fact in that should not be in.
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) What were the names of the agents who were there when you were interviewed and your mother was with you?
A. J. Gary Adams and Victor Harvey.
Q. It wasn't Doyle and Nez, is that right?
A. No.
Q. I was wrong about that?
A. Yeah. You were wrong.
{4842}
Q. When you got finished testifying in the grand jury and you came out, did you see any of the lawyers sitting at the government table?
A. Yeah. It was that guy (indicating).
Q. Which one is that?
A. Sikma.
Q. Mr. Sikma?
A. Yeah.
Q. Did he say anything to you?
A. Yeah.
MR. HULTMAN: Your Honor, I object again. This is irrelevant, immaterial to any issue here and it calls clearly for hearsay.
MR. TAIKEFF: I'm asking him what was said, not to prove the truth of the statement.
MR. HULTMAN: And further --
MR. TAIKEFF: Prove the statement was made.
MR. HULTMAN: And further it's beyond the scope.
THE COURT: Counsel approach the bench.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had at the bench:)
THE COURT: What do you expect the answer to be?
MR. TAIKEFF: I expect the answer will be Mr. Sikma said quote "You did good. We could have put you away for a long time."
{4843}
MR. HULTMAN: I object to that.
MR. SIKMA: That's a lie. That's an absolute lie.
MR. HULTMAN: Absolutely irrelevant and beyond the scope of direct and highly prejudicial.
THE COURT: In view of the denial, the question will not be allowed.
MR. LOWE: Mr. Sikma's denial?
THE COURT: That is right.
MR. TAIKEFF: We accept your ruling, Your Honor.
(Whereupon, the following proceedings were had in the courtroom in the hearing and presence of the jury:)
Q. (By Mr. Taikeff) Finally, Mr. Brown, Mr. Hultman asked you about whether you believed that it was important for every witness who comes here to tell the truth and I think you said, I don't mean to quote you, "Of course I believe that, I swore on the sacred pipe." When you testified before the grand jury, did you swear on the sacred pipe?
A. No.
MR. TAIKEFF: I have no further questions.