Testimony of Alan Paton, Liberal Party member and author of bestseller Cry, the Beloved Country, in mitigation of sentence
Examination by Harold Hanson:
Mr Hanson: May it please Your Lordship. I have been approached by the attorney appearing for the defence to address Your Lordship in mitigation of sentence... I do propose, before addressing Your Lordship, to call the evidence of one witness. His evidence is not of great length... I call Mr Paton.
Mr Hanson: Mr Paton, you are 61 years old?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Mr Hanson: Resident in Natal?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Mr Hanson: You have a B.Sc degree of the University of South Africa as well as a diploma in Education?
Paton: Yes....
Mr Paton: I have no doubt whatever of [the defendants Mandela's, Mbeki's, and Sisulu's] sincerity, and whatever methods they may have adopted or decided to adopt... I have never had any doubts as to their sincerity and their very deep devotion to the cause of their people... None of these three is known as a person who is obsessed with any desire for vengeance, any kind of racial vengeance...I came here, because I felt it was my duty to come here. I also came here because I am a lover of my country.
I think it is very improbable [that I could blame the defendants for resorting to violence]... I don’t think one has the right to expect of any people that they should accept a situation passively and make no effort. To me it is a very painful matter that people should feel that there are only these two choices. I myself don’t believe so, but I understand very well that some people should believe that.
Mr Hanson: Historically, have people in such a position ever accepted it?
Mr Paton: I know of no example, my Lord. I know of one very striking example to the contrary, and that is the history of the Afrikaner people in this country...
Mr Justice De Wet: There are many, many examples, Mr Paton, of people who have resisted and been convicted of high treason and executed, when they have done what the accused in the present case have done. I have in mind the famous gunpowder plot in England. In the light of subsequent history, the people had legitimate grievances, but they were not entitled to break the law by force and what happens to people like that, historically, is that they are convicted of high treason and condemned to death. That is what generally happens, is it not so?
Mr Paton: Yes, my lord.
Mr Hanson: My lord, it is not going to be contended that this is relevant to anything else but mitigation. Noone is entitled to break the law.
Cross-examination by Percy Yutar:
Dr Yutar: My, lord, I do not as a rule cross-examine people who are called in mitigation of sentence, but I propose to cross-examine this witness, with Your Lordship’s leave, and I do not do so with a view to aggravating the sentence, but in order to unmask this gentleman and make perfectly clear that his only reason for going into the witness box, in my submission, is to make political propaganda from the witness box.
Dr Yutar then addressed the witness: Mr Paton, are you a Communist?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Are you a ‘fellow traveller’?
Mr Paton: I don’t quite understand what a ‘fellow traveller’ is, but I understand your implication. I am not a fellow traveller.
Dr Yutar: Your understanding of my implication is correct. Do you share the aims and objects of the Communist Party?
Mr Paton: Some of the aims I would share.
Dr Yutar: Such as?
Mr Paton: Such as a more equitable distribution of land and wealth, better economic opportunities.
Dr Yutar: What do you not approve of in Communism?
Mr Paton: I disapprove entirely of the totalitarian methods the Communist Party adopted to bring about such changes.
Dr Yutar: Did you regard the African National Congress as a genuine African movement?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Do you still so regard it?
Mr Paton: I still do.
Dr Yutar: Despite his lordship’s observations yesterday?
Mr Paton: Which particular one?
Dr Yutar: You know what his lordship said about the African National Congress being dominated by the Communist Party?
Mr Paton: It has never been my belief that the ANC was dominated by the Communist Party.
Dr Yutar: Do you believe it to-day?
Mr Paton: I don’t believe it.
Dr Yutar: You don’t? So you do not accept his lordship’s finding as contained in his judgment of yesterday?
Mr Paton: My lord, I am being put in a very difficult situation.
Dr Yutar: I only want the truth, that is all.
Mr Paton: I don’t think it is an easy thing to express things in terms of black and white.
Dr Yutar: Do you accept his lordship’s finding, on the evidence, on the documents, that the ANC, the African National Congress, has been dominated by the Communist Party?
Mr Paton: I could not accept the statement in that form. What I would accept would be a statement that Communists have been active in the ANC and have held high positions.
Dr Yutar: Did you know that Nelson Mandela was Communistically inclined, to put it no higher than that?
Mr Paton: May I ask what you mean by Communistically inclined?
Dr Yutar: Well, let us put it more strongly and more bluntly: that in fact he is a follower of the Communist Party.
Mr Paton: No, that I never knew.
Dr Yutar: Do you know it today?
Mr Paton: I don’t. I find it very difficult to accept.
Dr Yutar: You know that we have had documents in Mandela’s own handwriting on ‘How to be a Good Communist’. Did you know that?
Mr Paton: Yes, but I have also read his explanation of it.
Dr Yutar: Oh, I see. And you accept his explanation?
Mr Paton: Well... I have no evidence.
Dr Yutar: I see. And you know too that according to the evidence in this case Neslon Mandela, on his return from his African tour reported back inter alia to the Natal Regional Command that the leaders of the ANC should not let it be known among the rank and file of the Bantu that the Communists were in fact assisting the ANC?
Mr Paton: I read that.
Dr Yutar: Did you know that in fact he had said so?
Mr Paton: Not until I had actually seen the statement.
Dr. Yutar: You know, of course, Mandela denied that when he made his statement. He denied that he had made that report?
Mr Paton: Yes, I read that also.
Dr Yutar: Yes. And of course a copy has been made of his statement in court and translated into several languages and published throughout the world?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: In fact, I understand a record has been made of it, and is being sold— is that right?
Mr Paton: I don’t know that... I don’t know.
Dr Yutar: Do you know that his denial was not accepted by his lordship?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Are you prepared to concede that Nelson Mandela abused his position as Deputy President General of the ANC in so far as he was a Communist and was propagating the aims and object of the Communist Party?
Mr Paton: I find it a very difficult question to answer...
Mr Hanson: May I interrupt, my lord... I don’t think that that is a finding of your lordship as my learned friend has just put it.
Dr Yutar: I shall read from the judgment. ‘Accused No. 1 was at great pains to deny that he was a Communist, had Communist sympathies or that he had said this, but it is interesting to observe what he writes in his report on the PAFMECSA Conference, under the heading ‘Political Climate’, viz.: “It is clear that in this area there are great reservations about our policy, and there is a widespread feeling that the ANC is a Communist dominated organisation.” And his lordship continues: ‘I may add that I share this feeling after hearing all the evidence in the present case.’
Mr Paton: I would like to repeat here, for example, what Mr Luthuli once said to me when I asked him...
Dr Yutar (interrupting): No, I will come to Mr Luthuli just now. My present question to you concerns Nelson Mandela. Do you think it right to represent to the rank and file of the Bantu of this country that the ANC is a genuine African organisation without any ties in any other countries, particularly Communist countries, when in fact Communists support the ANC? Is that a correct thing to represent to the people?
Mr Paton: Well... I am not aware that that was ever done... that people... this discussion has been going on for many, many years...
Dr Yutar: Well, I have read to you from his lordship’s judgment which is barely 24 hours old, and you have read it. If you accept his lordship’s finding— do you think that was a correct thing to do, to mislead the rank and file of the African people in this country?
Mr Paton: If I accept his lordship’s finding, then I say no.
Dr Yutar: Did you know that Raymond Mhlaba was a Communist?
Mr Paton: I don’t know.
Dr Yutar: By the way, were you ever consulted by the ANC leaders in this case, before they embarked on this traitorous programme of theirs?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Never consulted?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: But you moved in ANC circles?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: You had joint meetings with the ANC and the Indian Congress?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: You moved with a lot of Communists in this country, didn’t you?
Mr Paton: A... a lot?
Dr Yutar: Yes, a lot! I will mention their names.
Mr Paton: I must say I never enquired into people’s...
Dr Yutar: No? Do you know a traitor named Ronald Segal who published this vicious ‘Africa South’?
Mr Paton: Yes, I did know him.
Dr Yutar: Yes? Were you not a sponsor of that too?
Mr Paton: I... I believe so, yes.
Dr Yutar: Yes, of course. And ‘The African Communist’, a publication of the S.A. Communist Party— were you not on the mailing list of that too?
Mr Paton: The Security Police knew that I was getting it. I don’t know where it comes from...
Dr Yutar: Do you know another gentleman named Roley Arenstein?
Mr Paton: Yes, I do.
Dr Yutar: You have been to his house and held meetings there?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: You have been to his house?
Mr Paton: Er... no... er.
Dr Yutar: Come on!
Mr Paton: Er... I don’t think that...
Dr Yutar: I can give you the dates if you want them.
Mr Paton: I cannot remember ever having been to his house.
Dr Yutar: Where did you meet him?
Mr Paton: I met him largely through ‘Defence and Aid’.
Dr Yutar: Another association with a high-sounding name which assisted the saboteurs in this country, isn’t that so?
Mr Paton: In sabotage?
Dr Yutar: Yes.
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Not? Then what did you assist in?
Mr Paton: It assisted in defending people who are brought before the Court so that they might get a fair and just trial.
Dr Yutar: Did you personally supervise all the funds that came for ‘Defence and Aid’ from overseas?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Now I will give you the data of Roley Arenstein... to try to refresh your memory. On the 27th of July, 1962— by the way, you know where Arenstein lives, don’t you?
Mr Paton: I have a vague idea.
Dr Yutar: You were there on the 27th of July, 1962. No. 7. Majorca, Esterwood Road, Durban: that is his address, isn’t it?
Mr Paton: I don’t know. I haven’t been to his... I haven’t been to see him for... for a long time. And on this occasion of which you are speaking, I have a very.., not a perfect recollection, but I have a fairly clear recollection that it was not his house that it was the house of Dr Meidlinger.
Dr Yutar: Another well-known person— well-known to the Security Police.
Mr Paton: Not a political associate of mine.
Dr Yutar: Do you deny that he stayed at No. 7, Majorca, and that you attended a secret meeting there?
Mr Paton: I have no recollection whatsoever.
Dr Yutar: No recollection— but it may be true?
Mr Paton: A... a secret meeting? I don’t as a rule go to secret meetings.
Dr Yutar: By the way, you mentioned Albert Luthuli; let us make quite certain that we are speaking about the same gentleman. The one who got the Nobel Prize for peace?
Mr Paton: That is right.
Dr Yutar: Did you know that he had been consulted about acts of sabotage in this country?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Do you know it now?
Mr Paton: Do you mean do I know that that is the judgment?
Dr Yutar: Yes.
Mr Paton: Yes, I do.
Dr Yutar: Does it come to you as a surprise?
Mr Paton: I just have no... I mean, it would be very surprising to me, he was the President General of the ANC and I could understand...I would just like to say here that I have not really come here to defend any actions of any persons...
Dr Yutar: We are coming to that presently, to their actions, and also to your own views on violence— we will come to that, I promise you. But I am now dealing with Mr Luthuli. Did it come to you as a surprise that he was consulted, and gave his blessing to this new policy of violence of the ANC?
Mr Paton: It does not come as a surprise to me that he was consulted.
Dr Yutar: No?
Mr Paton: It would come as a surprise to me that he gave his blessing.
Dr Yutar: You know of course that we have got that evidence in the handwriting of Nelson Mandela, in his diary?
Mr Paton: Yes?
Dr Yutar: That he went to Natal and found the Chief in high spirits, and that he approved of the new operations? Does that come as a surprise to you?
Mr Paton: It did come as a surprise.
Dr Yutar: Are you averse to violence yourself Mr Paton?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Really? Have you never advocated it?
Mr Paton: Advocated violence?
Dr Yutar: Yes.
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Never?
Mr Paton: Never.
Dr Yutar: But you advocated, not so, military intervention in South West Africa?
Mr Paton: I cannot remember that. If I were reminded in what way I had done it...?
Dr Yutar: I will remind you. Have you ever advocated that?
Mr Paton: Military intervention?
Dr Yutar: Yes.
Mr Paton: In South West Africa?
Dr Yutar: Yes.
Mr Paton: Er... Not that I know of.
Dr Yutar: And have you ever advocated that the control and administration of this country be taken over by the United Nations?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: And you call yourself a true South African?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: You know of course that what I have told you now are some of the aims and objects of the Communist Party?
Mr Paton: What, that the United Nations...? No, I did not know that.
Dr Yutar: You advocated the economic boycott of South Africa?
Mr Paton: Only for some weeks.
Dr Yutar: Only some weeks?
Mr Paton: Yes, my views have changed.
Dr Yutar: Since when?
Mr Paton: Oh... quite a long time ago.
Dr Yutar: But you did advocate it overseas, didn’t you?
Mr Paton: Boycott of South Africa? Trade boycott? Never.
Dr Yutar: Never?
Mr Paton: Never.
Dr Yutar: No boycott at all?
Mr Paton: I... I once spoke on the Canadian broadcasting system, and... and I was asked this question.
Dr Yutar: Yes?
Mr Paton: The question was what kind of pressure would result in some change.
Dr Yutar: Yes, your memory is quite good
Mr Paton: My memory is quite good... I am an honest man.
Dr Yutar: I never raised that in doubt at the moment? Did you then advocate trade boycotts?
Mr Paton: In... in America?
Dr Yutar: In Canada.
Mr Paton: No. I was asked whether these things would be effective, and I made the statement over the air in Canada that that was a very difficult question to ask a South African.
Dr Yutar (preparing to read from the document concerning a 1960 television interview with Paton): This is what you said: By the way, did you know then that there was going to be a change in the policy of the ANC?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: You had no inkling of it?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: Did you ever know before 1961 that the Bantu youth of this country would resort to bloody struggle in this country?
Mr Paton: No.
Dr Yutar: You never thought so? Let me read to you from this. Mr Leiterman asked you, ‘Mr Paton, we are all very much aware of the terrible problems confronting South Africa, and I think the question we would all like to ask is whether there is any way out. Can anything be done to avoid a violent and bloody uprising of the African people?’ Here is your answer: ‘...Of course we all expect an increase in unrest and conflict within the country, but we expect also increasing aggressiveness from other African countries, who are determined they won’t tolerate the state of affairs in South Africa. If that were to happen then I think you might find some intervention from United Nations, which might give us some kind of interregnum... While I would not think that there was a likelihood of that at the moment, I think you mustn’t exclude the possibility that that has been thought of.’ By whom, Mr Paton?
Mr Paton: Er... that that has been thought of?
Dr Yutar: Yes, by whom?
Mr Paton: By many people.
Dr Yutar: By many people -including yourself?
Mr Paton: This was an attempt to give an objective account of what the situation was in South Africa.
Dr Yutar: I will read on. ‘Nor do I think that one must exclude the possibility that some of these nations would be planning to assist saboteurs or terrorists in South Africa.’ What made you speak of terrorists and saboteurs in South Africa in 1960?
Mr Paton: It was certainly no knowledge of any plans which were being made by any organisation in this country.
Dr Yutar: We do know that sabotage broke out in the latter half of 1961?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: I ask you again what made you talk of saboteurs and terrorists in South Africa in September, 1960?
Mr Paton: I repeat that it was no knowledge of any plans being made by any organisation. It was my reading of the situation.
Dr Yutar: A prophet? A prophetic utterance?
Mr Paton: I may not be a good one, but a prophet. I try to prophesy the truth. I don’t claim for myself that I can always prophesy the truth.
Dr Yutar: Your prophecy turned out to be very accurate.
Mr Paton: Well, this is a case where I obviously must have prophesied the truth.
Dr Yutar: I will read on: ‘What particular African states do you think might get involved in that way in South Africa?’ Oh, by the way, I did not complete the reading of the first part: ‘...by planning to assist saboteurs or terrorists in South Africa. These are hard facts, but I think they will have to be confronted.’ You make it pretty definite. You were asked by Mr Leiterman, ‘What particular African countries do you think might get involved in that war in South Africa?’ ‘Well, I think probably the most hostile country to South Africa would be Ghana... Nigeria is equally opposed to the practice of apartheid. I think that the new Kenya, when it achieves its independence, will be extremely hostile.’ More prophecy, Mr Paton?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: With remarkable accuracy!
Mr Paton: I thank you for the compliment.
Dr Yutar: I was not trying to compliment you at all— I would not dare! Mr Paton, do you know that these are the very countries who assisted the saboteurs and terrorists in this country both financially and militarily?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Now we go on, and come to boycotts. Mr Leiterman said, ‘...Many Canadians are asking would it be useful for a country like Canada to impose a trade boycott of South African goods? Would this help the cause of the black African?’ Now follows your reply: ‘I would say that these, well, one might call them consumer boycotts, unless they are carried out with Government approval, they are not likely to have any great effect. The three fields in which we are very vulnerable would be the selling of gold, one would be the buying of oil, and the other would be the handling of shipping. These are the three things.’
Mr Paton: That is quite true. That was my objective answer to that question.
Dr Yutar: And you are patriotic, you call yourself a patriot of South Africa, and you are telling countries abroad, ‘You get Government approval for these three things, and South Africa will be brought to its knees.'?
Mr Paton: Common knowledge. Not only people like myself, but people who are strong supporters of the Government know this just as well as I do.
Dr Yutar: And in fact these things are suggested in this wicked document ‘Operation Mayibuye’. You have heard about that, haven’t you?
Mr Paton: These things are thought of by all people, both those who are for and those who are against.
Dr Yutar: It just surprises me, if I may say so, that a South African can dare go across the seas and advocate that. Now I will read some more: Still on the subject of boycotts, you say, ‘But I am just supposing for example that the oil companies of the world refuse to sell any oil to South Africa. I think it would bring South Africa to a standstill within a few weeks.’ You were hoping, Mr Paton, that that would come about?
Mr Paton: Is that a question?
Dr Yutar: That is a question.
Mr Paton: It was not my hope. It was my objective answer to these questions. I perhaps have different ideas from some people as to what are the rights of a free man, and I thought it was my right, and I still think it was my right, to go to a country and answer questions of that kind.
Dr Yutar: You were not committing treason?
Mr Paton: Never on one occasion did I ever have any consultation with anybody and try to bring any pressure on anybody to exercise any of these...
Dr Yutar: Did I ask you that question?
Mr Paton: No, but...
Dr Yutar: Well, just confine yourself to my questions. You had hoped, not so, that if all the oil companies in the world refused to supply oil to South Africa, South Africa would come to a standstill within a few weeks? Did you ever stop to think what would happen to the Bantu of this country if that were to take place?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: And what would happen?
Mr Paton: I think as I have told you that my views on these matters have changed.
Dr Yutar: Yes, but I am taking you back to 1960, the year before the ANC adopted its new policy of violence. What did you think would happen to the poor Bantu of this country?
Mr Paton: They would have suffered a great deal.
Dr Yutar: Perhaps most of all?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Then Mr Leiterman asked you, ‘No-one suggests that you would be coming in the night with explosives to overthrow the state,’ and you said, ‘No, I have not been forced into that extreme position.’ Do you remember that?
Mr Paton: I accept your word.
Dr Yutar: Don’t. I am reading it to you.
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar (reading): ‘Do you see a time coming, Mr Paton, when patriots like yourself are going to be forced into extreme positions, when arguments are not going to be enough, when they are going to have to take action to prevent a violent outbreak of bloodshed?’ Do you remember that question?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar (reading): ‘I think that that probably would be quite possible in the case of young people, many young people.’ And in fact in 1961, or 1962 to be more accurate, young Bantu were surreptitiously stolen in the night, as it were, from their houses, and sent across the borders for military training?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: Another prophecy of yours come true!... All this that you said to the Canadian people on this television, complete with pictures of yourself; did you regard that as a subtle encouragement to the Bantu of this country?
Mr Paton: No....
Dr Yutar: And what was the alternative to that [your lost faith in the power of persuasion to change policy]?
Mr Paton: At the moment I am in a position where I still think it is my duty to use persuasion....
Dr Yutar: The only alternative to the force of persuasion, the only logical alternative, is a policy of violence, not so?
Mr Paton: There is another logical alternative, and that is to bow one’s head and accept the situation as it is.
Dr Yutar: You did not do that?
Mr Paton: I did not do that. I never will, I hope.
Dr Yutar: I feel like doing that after what you said overseas... Mr Leiterman asked you another question: ‘What kind of pressure can be brought to bear by those who are opposed to apartheid as a policy in South Africa?’... I will read your answer to you. Four words. ‘Well, you remember Sharpeville.’ What did you mean by that?
Mr Paton: I meant that that was an event of cataclysmic importance.
Dr Yutar: Yes? what happened at Sharpeville?
Mr Paton: Many people were killed.
Dr Yutar: Yes, give us a few more details.
Mr Paton: Many people who surrounded the police station... I am giving you what... what my version is... it is built naturally on others...
Dr Yutar: Yes?
Mr Paton: These people were pressing, I... I think the police became frightened, I think they panicked, I think they opened fire and many people were killed.
Dr Yutar: Do you know of documents that have been produced in this case, where the accused in this case advocated uprisings to give the impression of spontaneity? They were to create situations throughout the country leading to uprisings which had to give the impression to people here and abroad that it was something spontaneous, whereas in fact it was engineered? Did you know that?
Mr Paton: I don’t know it, but I can believe it. This is a political programme that is adopted by all political parties.
Dr Yutar: Right; so we have the Communist-dominated ANC engineering uprisings such as Langa and Sharpeville, but giving the impression to the world that this is something spontaneous from the people, whereas the accused are sitting pretty behind the scenes. Do you approve of that?
Mr Paton: I would just like to repeat that I have not come here to approve or disapprove of the actions of the accused. I have come here to speak to the court for clemency.
Dr Yutar: Yes, I know. Now we go on. You are now saying in effect that you do not approve of violence. I am coming to it. Mr Leiterman asked you this: ‘Now I would like to know how close it is, and when it might tumble over into violence?’ You said: ‘I would be very surprised if this Government was in power in 1970. It would really astonish me.’ Do you remember that?
Mr Paton: I remember that.
Dr Yutar: Now I come to the last two important paragraphs. Mr Leiterman asked you this: ‘But now, you yourself have said that parliamentary means are unlikely to ever unseat the present Government, it’s so strong that you can’t vote it out of office, and yet you say it may only last ten years... Now this seems to suggest to me that you foresee its being thrown out by extraparliamentary means.’ I will read you your reply: ‘Yes, oh, yes, I don’t think there is any likelihood that it will be thrown out by parliamentary means... but we have already suggested, I think, at the beginning of this discussion, that there were two possibilities, the one possibility would be that United Nations would intervene.., the other possibility is the one that you keep on referring to, the possibility of violence and chaos. Mr Paton, it is a fact that the United Nations have up till now not yet intervened in South Africa?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: And I suggest to you that the only alternative, in your own words to the Canadian people, was the possibility of violence and chaos.
Mr Paton: I may say that my opinions are not the same as they were in 1960.
Dr Yutar: Will you go back and tell the world that?
Mr Paton: If I were given permission I might try it...
Dr Yutar: You might try it? You can say it now, from the box. That is going to be published. I understand your evidence is going to be flashed throughout the world. That is why I am questioning you, so that the true position may be flashed throughout the world.
Mr Paton: Yes. I would say that I feel less pessimistic than I felt in 1960 about the future of this country.
Dr Yutar: Why do you say that?
Mr Paton: Well, I believe that there are signs of a growing... a change in our rulers... a growing... a change in their attitude towards English-speaking people and non-White people. I think that even a thing like the development in the Transkei, although I think they are fraudulent, I think they are a sign of change...
[Yutar showed the witness a clipping from a Johannesburg morning paper of 7th January, 1964, headed: ‘Paton’s Plea to Nordics: Don’t stop Concern at Apartheid’. ]
Dr Yutar: Campaigning even from this country? Against your country?
Mr Paton: No. Not against my country, no.
Dr Yutar: You have openly spoken against the Government?
Mr Paton: I have.
Dr Yutar: That is not treason, is it?
Mr Paton: I trust not.
Dr Yutar: Of course it is not.
Mr Paton: Yes, of course, I know that.
Dr Yutar: You have also spoken against apartheid?
Mr Paton: Yes.
Dr Yutar: And that is not treason either?
Mr Paton: Not yet.
Dr Yutar: And you have spoken against the policies followed in this country with perfect freedom?
Mr Paton: Not perfect freedom by any means.
Dr Yutar: No?
Mr Paton: No. It is extremely difficult to get a hall to hold such meetings. Also, the Security Police very often make it impossible to hold a meeting.
Dr Yutar: But if your meetings are perfectly legal you need not worry about the presence of the police?
Mr Paton: I call it intimidation.
Dr Yutar: What do you call these acts of sabotage which were perpetrated on the instructions of the accused?
Mr Paton: Well, they are clearly acts of intimidation too.
Dr Yutar: Of course. And but for the grace of God you might have been involved when they decided to bomb a building in your province of Natal?
Mr Paton: I might have been.
Dr Yutar: Some innocent children might have been there.
Mr Paton: I grant you that.
Dr Yutar: And that is what the accused have directed, you know, the bombing of buildings. Did you approve of the bombing of the Old Synagogue, just because it was used as a special criminal court?
Mr Paton: I don’t approve of it. I don’t approve of any bombing.
Dr Yutar: But that was done?
Mr Paton: That was done.
Dr Yutar: And did you visualise this in 1960?
Mr Paton: Did I foresee...? Yes, I did.
Dr Yutar: And, strangely enough, the ANC went over to this new policy in 1961?
Mr Paton: You mean there is some connection?
Dr Yutar: I am asking you.
Mr Paton: There is no connection whatsoever.
Dr Yutar: None whatsoever?
Mr Paton: None whatsoever.
Dr Yutar: You were just a true prophet?
Mr Paton: I would say so.
Dr Yutar (to the Court): No further questions.