Senate Judiciary Committee Testimony:Kevin Harris

TESTIMONY OF KEVIN HARRIS, FRIEND OF THE WEAVER FAMILY, RUBY RIDGE, ID; ACCOMPANIED BY DAVIND NEWIN COUNSEL, AND ELLISON MATTHEWS, COUNSEL

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, I have,

Senator SPECTER. And you understand your tights against self-Incrimination?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir,

Senator SPECTER. And you wish to proceed to testify voluntarily?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Fine~ The floor is yours, Mr. Harris. You may

Mr. HARRIS. My name is Kevin Harris. I am 28 years old, I live in a small town in Washington State where I work as a welder. I have a 5-year-old son named Jade. I completed the ninth grade in school.

I’m not a public speaker or a trained witness, and I am very nervous. My lawyers have told me that there is great risk for me in coming here because people may misunderstand me or because I might misspeak in some damaging way.

But someone needs to tell you the truth about what happened at the Y and at Ruby Ridge, and I'm going to do that.

I didn’t come here—and I never was at Ruby Ridge— because of religion or politics. I know that a lot of people were offended by Randy’s and Vicki’s beliefs. But I visited the Weavers simply because they were like a family to me. They loved me and I loved them. They always welcomed me, accepted me, and made me feel that I belonged. They were warm and hospitable. There was always a place to sleep and food on the table, even when they didn't have much for themselves.

I met the Weavers when I was 16. I guess I was a troubled kid. My dad died when I was 2, and I was raised by a series of step- fathers. The Weavers permitted me to be part of their family— something which was missing from my life—and I welcomed it. I knew them, and sometimes lived with them, off and on for the next 9 years, until August 1992.

I rarely lived with them on a full-time basis. There was one period of about 8 months, beginning in the spring of 1984 right after they had finished their cabin, when I was there continuously. But mostly I came and went. I remember one period of about a year-and-a-half when I didn't see them at all.

I remember going to the cabin in late August or early September 1991. Vicki was pregnant with Elisheba and her mom and dad came to visit. They wanted her to come down off the mountain to be near a hospital, but she refused. They made me promise to stay with the family until the baby was born in case there were problems, I stayed until the day after Elisheba was born, then left for the winter.

Sometimes I carried guns when I was at the cabin. I heard later that the marshals watched us with their spy cameras and figured out that I had a gun 66 percent of the time. The Weavers lived off the land. There was a garden, and we hunted whenever game was available. When we killed a deer, Vicki would can the venison. I also felt better having a gun In the woods, for protection from animals like mountain lions, bears, and moose, which are fairly common up there. Many people in Boundry County carry guns as a matter of course. It’s not uncommon to see men, even women, carrying guys in the grocery store.

We had no idea that the deputy marshals would be in the woods on that Friday. In fact, I really didn't believe that the marshals would come up and try to arrest Randy. I figured that they would just wait him out. I mean, that's what would have made sense. When I learned at the trial that they had come to the cabin on a number of occasions, I was very surprised. Whenever I was at the cabin, I freely went to town, picked up mail, and went to the grocery store, and no law enforcement officer ever stopped me or even questioned me.

The only time I was ever contacted by law enforcement officers was the previous August, when a man who identified himself as a marshal called my foster mom in Spokane looking for me. I returned the call. The man told me, "You're probably not going to be able to help me, but I want to ask you something. What kinds of guns does Weaver have, and would he booby-trap his property?" I said, "You're right, I can't help you." He said OK and hung up.

I spent a good part of the spring and summer of 1992 at the Weaver cabin. I tried to spend a week every month or so with my son, who lived with his mother in Spokane. I came back up to the cabin the weekend before the 21st after one of these visits.

It was just bad luck that I was even at the cabin that week. I had been promised a job running equipment on a hay farm over at Ephrata, WA. The job was supposed to have begun that Monday, the 17th, but it was delayed a week. And I don't remember exactly why; the hay was wet or something or some equipment had broken down. If not for that, I wouldn't even have been there on the 21st.

Anyway, it was a typical week. I remember that I took the kids, except Elisheba, down to Ruby Creek on Thursday, and we spent the day fishing and swimming. We caught a nice mess of fish, small trout, and took them back and fried them up for dinner. Incidentally—it says here, "Incidentally, we didn't take any guns ** * on that trip." But I believe that I was carrying a sidearm.

August 21, 1992, was a Friday, and Friday was the day which the Weavers kept as the Sabbath. We did no work on that day— just relaxed, read, and visited.

Late in the morning we heard the dogs bark, and we went outside. Striker, the big yellow Lab, frequently barked at squirrels or noises or anything, but this was not that kind of a bark. It was more insistent, as if someone or something were around.

When we got outside to the rocks, Striker had gone on down the hill near the lower garden, and he was barking up into the woods, toward an opening where we had taken down some trees for firewood.

Sam and Randy went down the driveway, and I went down a small path through the rocks. They got to the garden area ahead of me.

By the time I got down there, Striker had come out of the woods and was at the road with Randy and Sam. He wasn't barking any more, but he was still interested in something in the woods.

Striker started trotting down the road toward the tree line, then looking back at us as if he wanted us to follow. It's open in this area, and just before the dense trees begin, there's an old ski trail up to the right where they used to drag out logs, and Strike stopped there. Up the hill to your right after a few yards, the slope flattens out, and a game trail cuts through.

The dog headed up toward this game trail. I was thinking that an animal might be there since lots of deer come down to raid our garden. We were about out of venison, and we would have been glad to shoot a deer.

Randy and Sam and I all went up to the game trail. Striker seemed to be sniffing something, and I told Randy I was going to follow the game trail. Sam said, "Me, too." Randy said he would go back and head down the other road.
Sam and I started down the game trail—the dog ,Sam, and then me. The dog was walking along ahead of us, sniffing and wagging his tail, not running. He was no longer barking. He'd go ahead, then wait for us to catch up. He never got far enough ahead that we had to call him back. After a while, I figured that whatever animal had been there was probably gone.

We came out of the woods above the fern field. I immediately looked up the road thinking I might see the hind end of a deer running away. We didn’t see anything, so we turned and walked down to the fern field.

The officers testified that they came out in or below the fern field, so I'm sure that Striker wasn't directly tracking them at that point.

We went through the fern field and down the road to where it connects up with the road up to that cabin, what everybody now called the Y. It's an old logging road, but it's really more of a trail. The trees grow over the top, and it's dark under them, almost like a tunnel.

The trail is fairly narrow, and we walked single file. We were just walking along, heading back to the cabin. I was carrying my 30.06 rifle in my right hand, hanging down at my side. Sam was about 10 or 15 feet ahead of me.

As we got to the Y, I saw Striker run off ahead. Suddenly I saw that he was near a person. The person had camouflage clothing on and seemed to have a beard. He wasn't looking at us. He was looking up in the direction of the road to the cabin, so I saw his profile. He had what looked like a pistol in his right hand.

At my trial I learned that the beard I saw was really a camouflage stocking over the marshal's face and that the pistol was the silenced sub-machine gun.

Then the dog seemed to lung for the man's hands, the way that Striker did when you play with him. I thought about telling the man, don't worry, the dog won't hurt you, that's how he plays. But I never got the chance.

I was still walking forward, and the dog was jumping around the man. The dog then moved away from the man, in a circle, and ended up facing uphill.

Suddenly the dog was shot. My impression was that the man near him was the one who shot him, but I can't be sure of that. I watched as the camouflaged man ran into the brush.

Sam stopped above the dog. As I came up next to him, he started to raise his weapon and said, "You shot my dog, you son of a bitch."

As soon as he started to raise his weapon up, I turned to my right and headed for cover.

As I did, I saw smoke puffs and brass shell casing flying in the air down in the woods below the trail. I assumed Sam was shooting and that someone was shooting back at him, but I didn't actually see Sam shoot.

In fact, once I turned away from Sam as he raised his gun, I never saw him alive again. I have since learned that his shell casings were found farther up the road, so he probably wasn't shooting at that time.

I took two, maybe three steps crouched down, found some cover beside the woods. There were still shots being fired, and so I fired once into the brush. I believed that whoever was in the woods was shooting at both Sam and me. I have since learned that there were at least six bullet grates and metal fragments found in the area right behind me, so I'm sure that I was right.

I continued to move further into the woods and came up next to a stump.

Up behind me I heard Sam saying something that made me think he'd been hit. It was something like "Oh, shit!" I'm not sure where he was, but I could tell he was well back behind me. I could also hear Randy yelling that we should come home, and I heard Sam say, "I'm coming, Dad." I also hear Sam say, "C'mon Kevin, Kevin c'mon"

I heard a dull hissing sound like "thhhpp," and right away I heard Sam yelp. It was the kind of sound you'd make if you were slugged in your chest with a fist. I didn't hear anything from Sam after that.

I heard moaning from the woods, and someone saying, "I'm hit, I'm hit." There was someone standing up, leaning over something, probably a person. The person standing up said, "I know, I know." Then this person jumped unto the road and said, "U.S. Marshals! U.S. Marshals!" This was the first time I'd heard anyone identify themselves.

Then another man jumped up on the road and looked up in my direction. I fired my gun about 10 feet to his left. He jumped back into the brush, and I never saw him again.

Obviously, I could have shot and killed either or both of these men.

Then nothing happened for 5 or 10 minutes. I waited, frozen. I didn't hear any shooting or anything that I can recall. Then I heard a vehicle moving down below. It sounded like a rig driving up to the Y. I gathered myself and dove back further into the woods. A branch caught my hat and knocked it off. I ran deeper into the woods, and then turned uphill toward the cabin.

I ran through the woods alongside the road a ways, and then I saw Sam laying out on the road. I came out on the road above Sam. I put my rifle down on the ground and lifted up my hands, looked down toward the Y and said, "I just want to check on Sam." I walked down to where his body was, in plain view of the men at the Y.

Sam was lying face down in the road. He had on blue jeans, a white tee-shirt, a flannel shirt, and a sheepskin vest, with the fuzzy side in. I rolled him over, and there was blood all over his front. His eyes were rolled back in his head, half closed. His lips were turning blue. He wasn't breathing. I felt for a pulse, and there was none. I left him laying on his back.

I learned later that Sam's right arm was shot up pretty bad, probably from when he was shot the first time, but I didn't see the arm wound then. I also learned later that the killing shot, the second shot, went right through him, from the back, and pierced his heart.

Then I picked up my rifle and headed up the hill figuring that eyes were everywhere in the woods watching me. As I got up closer to the cabin, I heard someone say, 'There's Kevin!" I tried to think of how to tell Vicki and Randy that Sam was dead, and finally I just said it. I sat down and started to cry.

They couldn't believe it. They said, Are you sure? I said I was sure, that I had stopped and looked at his body. Randy went kind of berserk. He grabbed his gun and fired it up into the air repeatedly. He screamed and yelled and cursed. Vicki screamed and cried. Then the girls came out, and Vicki told them what had happened.

After a while, Vicki and Randy decided that they had to go get Sam's body. I told them where he was, and I tried to talk them out of' going down there. I was afraid they'd get shot, too. But they insisted on going. I stayed with the girls.
I knew when they found Sam's body because I could hear Vicki wailing and screaming, and Randy, too.

Awhile later, I heard Vicki call to me from down by the garden. She said, "Kevin, come down here. we need some help." They had gotten Sam's body to the trees, and then Randy and I got him as far as the pumphouse. Then I picked him up, put him over my shoulder, and carried him to the small cabin we called the birthing shed. I laid him on the bed where Vicki gave birth to Elisheba and left him there with his mother and father.

I understand they took his clothes off; cleaned him up, and wrapped him in a sheet, but I wasn't there for that. After a while, Vicki came out of the shed and came over to me and said, "I've never once wished that that was you and not him." Then she gave me a big hug.

For a long time after Sam was put in the birthing shed, I sat by myself on a rock ledge looking out to the east. Later I went back to the house. The girls cried all night. I assume they didn't sleep. I know I didn't.

The next morning no one talked much. We were in a daze. I re member Vicki cooking something for Elisheba, but I don't recall anyone else eating.

Early in the morning, we heard the other dogs whimpering, and Randy and Sara went out to feed them. We listened to the radio and heard a report that I had shot and killed a deputy U.S. marshal.

We heard sirens in the valley. We figured they would be coming up at some point with bullhorns to demand that we come out. Late in the afternoon, we heard the dog, which was tied on the rock outcropping, whimpering like he might be wrapped up in his chain. Sara wanted to check on him, and Randy wanted to look at Sam. I needed batteries for my flashlight, and I knew there were some in a stash
of Sam's personal things that he kept in a box out on the rocks, so I went with them.

Sara checked on the dog, and then followed her dad over to the shed. Suddenly there was a shot.

Weaver hollered, "I'm hit, I'm hit!" Sara started pushing him around the edge of the shed. I went straight back down the driveway. Rardy was screaming, "I'm hit, Ma, I'm hit!" Vicki came out of the door, halfway along the rock path, called at us to come in. She went back to the door, opened it, then stood in it, holding it open.

Randy and Sara were ahead of me. I was running until I caught up with them, then I slowed down to their pace. I had my rifle in my left hand. As I started through the door, I heard a loud boom. I was looking at Vicki, at her face. As I heard the shot, it was as if there was something moving under her skin, then her face was deformed, almost seemed to explode.

Next thing I knew I was lying on the floor. When I couldn't feel my left hand, I realized I'd been hit.

Rachel was screaming really bad. I think she's the only one who saw what happened besides me. Randy picked the baby up, and she was all sprayed with blood and tissue. Randy handed her to Rachel, then turned to Vicki, lifted up her head, and said, "Oh, Ma * * *”,

Vicki convulsed several times, and then was still. Randy pulled her body into the kitchen. There was a big pool of blood flowing out of her onto the floor. At first I thought it was my blood and for sure I was going to die.

Sara and Randy helped me take my leather coat off. My chest felt all mushy, and there was blood caked everywhere inside my coat and on my shirt.

They'd killed Sam and Vicki and almost killed Randy and me, and we were afraid that if we came outside they'd finish us all off. So we stayed inside.

You've heard from others about the siege. I lay in a chair for 9 days, in and out of consciousness, my wounds beginning to rot and stink. I only got up twice the whole time, both times to go to the bathroom. Both times I fainted. There were bright search lights at night and always the voice of the negotiators, calling out to talk to Vicki, as if she were still alive.

I kept hearing on the radio that I was wanted for murder. By then Bo Gritz and Jack McLamb had come up to help out, and we were talking to them. They brought me a paper where the FBI promised that if I went out, they would leave Weaver and the girls alone. I decided to go and went out with Jack McLamb.

At the hospital two FBI agents questioned me while I was on a bed, with doctors and nurses working on me. I explained as best I could while the doctors were trying to treat me what had happened at the Y.

I was in the hospital for about 2 ½ weeks.

After I got out of the hospital, I was taken to Boise and placed in jail, where I was charged in Federal district court with the first degree murder of William Degan. The prosecutors demanded the death penalty. I was amazed by what they said I was guilty of. They threw the book at me: conspiring with the Weaver family to cause an armed confrontation with the Government; assault with a deadly weapon on Roderick, Cooper, and Degan; assault with a deadly weapon on a helicopter; harboring a fugitive—Randy; aiding and abetting the possession of firearms by Randy; and using a firearm to commit these crimes.

The trial lasted about 2 months, and the Government called 56 witnesses. After that, we rested our case without calling a single witness. On July 8, 1993, after more than 10 months in custody, the jury found me not guilty of all charges.

Since that day at the Y, I have learned that Mr. Roderick and Mr. Cooper claim that we ambushed the marshals, and Mr. Cooper claims that I just wheeled and shot Mr. Degan for no more reason than that he called out to me.

I want to say this as clearly as I possibly can so that there is absolutely no mistake in anyone's mind: what Mr. Roderick and Mr. Cooper say is false.

I would not have been anywhere near those woods if I had known that all those men with assault rifles and a silenced sub-machine gun, and who knows what other weapons, were out there. We were just walking along the trail to the Y, making a perfect target of ourselves.

If I had wanted to shoot someone, I had the perfect opportunity when I saw the man with the dog. He wasn't even looking at me. But I didn't shoot him, because I didn't have any intention of shooting anyone.

The first thing that happened at the Y is that someone shot Striker. I saw that, and I know it with complete certainty. Every-thing else that happened followed from that.

Marshal Thomas Norris who was on the six-man team that day reported, in his statement to the FBI and testified under oath at my trial, that the first three shots fired at the Y had the distinctive sound of a .223. And anyone who has been around guns knows that the sound of a .223 is very different from the big boom of a 30.06.

I learned later that when Marshal Hunt got down to Mrs. Rau's house he left her with the impression that the dog was shot first. Her statement to the FBI says that he told her, "Roderick finally put down the dog. Right after he put the dog down, the marshals realized they were going to be ambushed by the Weavers."

I also learned later long after my trial had begun that when Captain Dave Neal, of the Idaho State Police Team, got to the Y late that night and met with Mr. Roderick, that Mr. Roderick left him with the clear impression that the dog had been shot first. And after the Justice Department report came out, I learned that Mr. Henry Hudson, the Director of the U.S. Marshals Service, had the same impression.

At page 184 of the report, Mr. Danny Coulson is quoted saying that he met with Director Hudson and two other high officials from the Marshals Service on the evening of the 21st. Mr. Hudson described the incident in this way, "One of the Deputy United States Marshals had been attacked by a dog and had shot the dog which started a firelight. During the firefight one Deputy United States Marshal had been killed."

Also, Mr. Cooper has denied all along that he shot Sam. After the FBI found Sam's body in the birthing shed, Marshal Mike Johnson said, at a press conference, that "I shot Sam in the back." They came here and told you that it was Randy but the Government's own expert witness, Dr. Fackler, said at my trial that Cooper shot Sam and he was right.

According to their story no one knew that Sam had been killed until they found his body the following week. But we, we have known all along that this was false because first I and then Randy and Vicki walked down to Sam's body in plain view of the Y where the marshals were. I held up my hands and said I was going to look at Sam. Vicki and Randy cried and wailed loudly.

We learned only last week that a former Justice Department official, Mr. Jeffrey Howard, knew that Sam was dead less than 24 hours after he was killed. I understand that Mr. Hudson provided a statement to the FBI after the trial in which he said the same thing, "How could these men have known about this unless they were told by one of the marshals on the scene?"

I never met Mr. Degan but everyone says that he was a very good man and I am very, very sorry that he is dead. I do not know what his intentions were and I probably will never know. I think it is possible that he was there, that he was just like I was, in the middle of something that should not have happened, that he did not start and that was out of his control.

Sitting in that cabin for 8 or 9 days, I was not only scared of dying—in fact, at times dying did not look so bad—but I felt sure that if I did survive I would be given a meaningless trial in a kangaroo court and then sent off to prison for the rest of my life or even executed.

After all I have been through I am truly thankful for the court system that we have in this country. In many other countries in the world just the word of the deputy marshals would have been all it took to put me away forever or worse. But the court system worked. It presumed me innocent, appointed lawyers to represent me and gave me a fair trial with a jury and the jury acquitted me.
I would be glad to answer any questions the subcommittee may have.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, you are prepared to answer questions at this time?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator SPECTER. All right, the panel will proceed with 15-minute rounds.

Mr. Harris, why are you testifying today after having earlier declined to testify?

Mr. HARRIS. Declined when?

Senator SPECTER. You had initially said you did not want to come and testify, is that not correct?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. My question to you then is why did you then change your mind so that you are here to testify today?

Mr. HARRIS. At first my attorneys thought that it would not be a good idea but after watching the hearings and hearing what was being told by the marshals and the FBI, I felt that I had to.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, you said that when you came out and walked down to the Y that you were making perfect targets of yourselves. Nobody shot at you, did they?

Mr. HARRIS. Not at that point, no.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, you testified that you were amazed by what they said you were guilty of. Were you surprised that you were charged with murder in the first degree and that they were asking for the death penalty after a U.S. deputy marshal was

Mr. HARRIS. No. It was the other charges. There was just a bunch of them.

Senator SPECTER. The other charges. But you were not amazed at being charged with murder where they asked for the death penalty after a marshal was killed?

Mr.HARRIS. No. I knew they were going to do that. I heard that on the radio while we were still in the cabin.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, when did you first hear someone identify themselves as U.S. marshals?

Mr. HARRIS. After the, after, pretty much after everything was done with. After Sam was killed.

Senator SPECTER. Are you aware that there has been testimony that U.S. Marshal Degan, Deputy Marshal Degan identified himself as a U.S. marshal before any shots were fired?

Mr. HARRIS. I heard that but I never heard anybody identify themselves down there.

Senator SPECTER. Had you heard someone identify themselves as a U.S. marshal or a deputy U.S. marshal would you have fired at any such person?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, why did you fire at someone in a context, as I understand it, where only—and I do not minimize the killing of the dog, Striker—but why would shots be fired in return on the killing of Striker?

Mr. HARRIS. I did not return—I did not shoot because the dog had been killed. I, when I turned and I looked and I was headed towards cover getting out of there, when I looked over into the brush I could see puffs of smoke and shell casings flying around so I assumed that they were shooting at me.

Senator SPECTER. So why did you fire?

Mr. HARRIS. Why did I fire?

Senator SPECTER. You saw men in camouflage, you knew that.

Mr. HARRIS. I did not act

Senator SPECTER. Wait a second.

Mr. HARRIS. I am sorry, go ahead.

Senator SPECTER. You knew that Mr. Randall Weaver had not responded to the court process. You had good reason to believe that law enforcement officers were going to come for Mr. Weaver, so why did you fire?

Mr. HARRIS. I did not know who they were when we got down there.

Senator SPECTER. Well, whom did you think they were?

Mr. HARRIS. I did not know. It looked like—

Senator SPECTER. If you did not know, why did you fire?

Mr. HARRIS. Because they were shooting at me. When I fired they were shooting at me.

Senator SPECTER. Why were they shooting at you?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not know.

Senator SPECTER. Who had initiated the fire? Had young Sammy Weaver initiated the fire?

Mr. HARRIS. I am not sure.

Senator SPECTER. Was it possible in your mind, at that time, that young Sammy had initiated the fire?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not know. Or maybe I do not understand.

Senator SPECTER. Well, in a context where Mr. Randall Weaver has failed to respond to court process and you know on the radio that people are going to come to try to arrest him, and you are walking down into the area and you see a man in camouflage, why do you fire in the context of a reasonable concern that there might have been law enforcement officials out there?

Mr. HARRIS. When I saw the man standing in the road he looked like—I thought he was a guy in camo and he had a beard and a hat on or something—he looked like a local; he looked like a neighbor.

Senator SPECTER. Well, why would you shoot at him?

Mr. HARRIS. I did not shoot at him. I did not shoot, I did not shoot at anybody until after the dog was shot and then I was heading for cover and there was shooting all in front of me. It looked like they were just, you know, bombarding us with shots, and I just fired into the brush and kept going.

Senator SPECTER. Well, who did you think they were?

Mr. HARRIS. I, at that point, I did not think anything. I was just trying to get out of the way.

Senator SPECTER. You thought you were firing in self-defense in that context?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. You have testified that you gave a statement to the FBI and at that time that you were wounded and in bed.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator SPECTER. And considering all those circumstances, let me read you a paragraph from the FBI report on a statement taken, according to this record, September 1, 1992, by two FBI Agents, John and Houston.

They are relating your statement now. "By the time Samuel Weaver began shooting, Harris had caught up and was standing next to Samuel Weaver. Harris realized the man or the men in the brush were returning fire when he observed smoke puffs coming from the brush and spent cartridges flying around. Harris moved to the east side of' the road and got down behind a tree stump. Harris fired one shot from his rifle at a man approximately 20 feet away in the brush on the other side of the road. Harris raised his rifle and fired so quickly that he did not get his rifle up to his face or actually have anything in his sights when he fired."

"Immediately after firing his rifle, Harris heard a man moan and say, 'I'm hit.' Harris observed another man dressed in camouflage fatigues standing over the one who had been hit and heard the one standing say, 'I know."'
Is that an accurate statement that the FBI recorded?

Mr. HARRIS. I cannot remember what I said that day.

Senator SPECTER. Does it sound right?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not know. That is not what happened.

Senator SPECTER. Well, according to what the FBI wrote down here, "Harris raised his rifle and fired so quickly that he did not get his rifle up to his face or actually have anything in his sights when he fired. Immediately after firing his rifle He heard a man moan and say, 'I'm hit.'"

Now, according to that sequence it sounds as if the man who was hit apparently, Deputy Marshal Degan, was struck by a bullet which you fired. Would you disagree with that?

Mr. HARRIS. With which part of it?

Senator SPECTER. Would you. disagree with the part that you fired the shot which apparently hit Deputy Marshal Degan?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I do not disagree with that.

Senator SPECTER. Well, do you disagree that that is what the statement says? The statement says, "Harris raised his rifle and fired so quickly"—it says, "Harris fired one shot from his rifle at a man approximately 20 feet away in the brush on the other side of the road. Harris raised his rifle and fired so quickly that he did not get his rifle up to his face or actually have anything in his sights when he fired. Immediately after firing his rifle, Harris heard a man moan and say, 'I'm hit."'
Does it not sound to you like you fired the shot that hit Deputy Marshal Degan?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, did you ever see a helicopter?

Mr. HARRIS. At which point?

Senator SPECTER. At any point. At the point where Mr. Weaver was shot.

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator SPECTER. Are you sure?

Mr. HARRIS. Positive.

Senator SPECTER. Have you heard the testimony that there was a helicopter in the vicinity which was endangered at the time that Mr. Weaver sustained the shot to his shoulder?

Mr. HARRIS. I heard the testimony but I never heard or saw a helicopter.

Senator SPECTER. Could the helicopter have been there without your having seen it at that particular time or now being able to recollect having seen it?

Mr. HARRIS. Not if it was close, no.

Senator SPECTER. How badly injured were you, Mr. Harris?

Mr. HARRIS. I, I mean I had a big hole in my arm and it went into my chest.

Senator SPECTER. And you lay there for 9 days before you had medical care?

Mr. HARRIS. Beside what Sara did, yes.

Senator SPECTER. And how long did it take you to recover?

Mr. HARRIS. Probably a couple of months, while I was in jail, 3 months.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, I would like you to go over to the mockup and show us where you were at the time you fired the shot. I think it might be useful if the members of the subcommittee came over and took a look at it.

Herb, Larry, why do you not come and take a look. Show us, if you will, Mr. Harris, just where you were at the time you saw the first man in camouflage?

Mr. HARRIS. I was walking down this trail.

Senator SPECTER. And tell us what happened after that time?

Mr. HARRIS. OK, I walked, we were walking down the trail, the dog and then Sam and then myself. And I was just walking, walking along and I was looking down toward the trail. I was not watching up ahead. Then I saw the dog, the dog take off, you know, start running faster.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Could you point to that once again?

Mr. HARRIS. Right in here somewhere.
I cannot tell from—I mean I was in here somewhere. I was walking down this way.

Senator FEINSTEIN. You went to the point of the Y.

Mr. HARRIS. At which point, ma'am?

Senator FEINSTEIN. You were at the point of the Y?

Mr. HARRIS. At which point?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Right here.

Mr. HARRIS. I am confused.

Senator SPECTER. Where were you? In your own way describe where you were, where Sammy was, where the dog was when you first walked into the area where you were about to see men in camouflage?

Senator LEAHY. Describe, approximately, how far that was from the cabin?

Senator SPECTER. Good question. How far is that, Mr. Harris?

Mr. HARRIS. I would guess a quarter mile, something like that~. I am not sure. Something like that. It is quite a ways.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Could he trace the trail that he came down?

Senator SPECTER. Trace the trail. Senator Feinstein raises a good question. Could you trace the trail when you left the cabin all the way down; and you testified about this, but make reference now to where you were so we can understand along this mockup.

Mr. HARRIS. OK. When the dog was down here, down here barking up into the woods, I was on this rock. Randy and Sam came around the rock down on the road and they got down here a ways and then I came down, just down off the rock straight down a little path there. And walked down the road and when I got

Senator SPECTER. Did you have any suspicion at that time that there might be any Federal agents in the area?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, no. When I—Sam and Randy got down in here, and then when I came up to them the dog was already down onto the road and—

Senator SPECTER. Down onto the road, where?

Mr. HARRIS. Right in here, somewhere. Yes, here, we had some firewood up here we were cutting. So, it was right below that.

Senator SPECTER. And what happened next?

Mr. HARRIS. OK. And then there was not—I mean the dog was just kind of sniffing around, wagging his tail and he started to go down this road here, down to about this point and we followed him down and stood there. And there is a skid trail that goes right up through here. And when you are standing down on the road the skid trail goes up and then flattens out up on top.

Senator SPECTER. Now, at some point, you suspected that there was either a dog or a person that Striker was barking at?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator SPECTER. When—

Mr. HARRIS. I thought it was game.

Senator SPECTER. You thought it was game?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, because there was a heavi1y traveled game trail right here that goes all the way back over to there. And we have a garden right down in here. And they go down in there and eat the asparagus and stuff.

Senator SPECTER. What happened next?

Mr. HARRIS. OK. So there is a little shelf up here where when you are looking up you cannot see up there. So we decided to walk up there and see if we could see something cutting across that shelf in there and that is when I found the game trail.

And so we all three walked up there and then so, and the dog was just walking around kind of sniffing.

Senator SPECTER. Now, where were you at this time?

Mr. HARRIS. Right up here where—I do not know exactly where the game trail was, but it was up in here somewhere.

Senator LEAHY. About 150 yards away?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. That would be about right, I guess.

Senator SPECTER. About 150 yards away, Senator Leahy asked you.
Go ahead.

Mr. HARRIS. OK, and then so I decided to walk down that trail and see if we could not get a shot at something, you know, if a deer or something was in there. And Randy said, well, I'm going to go down this road.

Senator SPECTER. Randy.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, Mr. Weaver.

Senator SPECTER. Go ahead.

Mr. HARRIS. He went down this way and Sam and I walked down this—there is a game trail in there and we just followed the game trail. And we came out there is—it is not on this thingy here—but there is a road goes on up past the fern field. There is—this road keeps going all the way up. We came out somewhere up in here above the fern field.

And I looked up the road, you know, thinking if something was trying to get away from us, you know, like a deer or something I could see him bounce off up the hill. I did not see anything so we just started walking back down the road.

Senator SPECTER. Which way did you walk, and what happened next?

Mr. HARRIS. We walked down, down this trail, right down through here, down the road. And Weaver was coming down this way, or that is where he said he was going to go. So I just planned on meeting up with him and headed back up to the cabin. I did not know anybody was there and the dog was not, you know, he was not barking or trying to chase anything until we got to about somewhere in here. I cannot tell exactly on this.

Senator SPECTER. Some short distance from the Y?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator SPECTER. And what happened?

Mr. HARRIS. OK And then the dog kind of took off running and I just followed, my eyes followed the dog and there was a guy standing in the road looking up this way. And then the dog got up to him and was jumping around him.

Senator SPECTER. You saw a guy?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. That was a man.

Senator SPECTER. That was the first time you saw the man in camouflage?

Senator KOHL. Where was he standing here?

Mr. HARRIS. He was standing right in here somewhere.

Senator SPECTER. Right at the Y?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, there is a water bar right there and he was standing right on the other side of it.

Senator KOHL. And where were you?

Mr. HARRIS. Walking down this way.

Senator KOHL. Here somewhere?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, it was not that far away.

Senator SPECTER. Was the man in camouflage armed?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. Well, I—when I—what I saw, what I perceived was a man in cammy pants and a beard and had a pistol in his hand and it looked like, just a pistol. And all I was seeing was the barrel of a pistol.

Senator SPECTER. Did you not have any reason, at that point, to suspect that he was a law enforcement officer?

Mr. HARRIS. At that point, all I was thinking was getting the dog off of the—getting the dog back. He was kind of a, he is kind of a big scary-looking dog.

Senator SPECTER. Well, you are thinking about getting the dog back but are you not also thinking something about who that person is?

Mr. HARRIS. Well—

Senator SPECTER. In that strange get-up?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, in that, out there in Idaho that is not a strange get-up. It is—in camo clothing people wear it all the time.

Senator SPECTER. With a stocking face mask?

Mr. HARRIS. I did not, I did not perceive it as being a face mask. I thought he had a beard on. I thought it was a guy in a beard and camo.

Senator SPECTER. So, just another man in the woods as far as youwere concerned?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator SPECTER. OK. What happened next?

Mr. HARRIS. And then the dog was jumping around, jumping around him. When we played with the dog, you know, he would kind of push his head so he would go, he would nip at your hands. And that is what he was doing. He was nipping at the guy's hands.

And then he kind of did a little half circle and kind of walked away from him and stopped. And he was looking up, up the road, looking up this way. And me and Sam were still walking down towards there. And then bang, the dog was shot. And it went down

Senator SPECTER. Now, where were you and Sam when the dog was shot?

Mr. HARRIS. Walking right in here.

Senator SPECTER. And where were you facing? Were you facing the dog?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, I was looking at the dog.

Senator SPECTER. And could you tell who shot the dog?

Mr. HARRIS. I assumed it was that guy standing, the guy who was—and at that point, I figured the guy got nervous and just shot the dog because, you know, I still did not know who he was. I just figured he thought he was going to get bit or something, so he shot the dog.

Senator SPECTER. And what happened next?

Mr. HARRIS. OK. And then the dog kind of yelped a bit and laid down right there. And we walked up there and got to this point and I was standing—I got up to Sam and he started to turn back and he said, you shot my dog, you son-of-a-.bitch.

And he started to go up like this, and as he moved this way, I went off, you know, like at the same time. He was moving and I was moving. And as I got up and was looking straight toward the brush there was, that is when I saw the puffs of smoke and the shell casings.

Senator SPECTER. Who shoe first?

Mr. HARRIS. Which? Whoever shot the dog.

Senator SPECTER. Who shot first?

Mr. HARRIS. Whoever shot the dog.

Senator SPECTER. Who shot next?

Mr. HARRIS. I do not know.

Senator SPECTER. Did Sammy shoot next?

Mr. HARRIS. I am not sure. When I saw him, I assumed that he had started shooting because he pulled up his gun like this but I never saw him shoot because I was going this way and I looking straight up.

Senator SPECTER. How long after that did you fire a shot?

Mr. HARRIS. Probably just a few seconds to get from here—

Senator SPECTER. Well, give us the sequence from when Striker was shot until you fired a shot.

Mr. HARRIS. When, from when Striker was shot?

Senator SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. OK. And then we got down above Striker and Sam said, you shot my dog. And he started to turn towards that direction, looking into the brush. And he started, his rifle started to come up and then I went this way and then there was just the--it looked like there was people shooting all over the place. You know, it looked like puffs of smoke and shell casings flying. And I kept going and took two, maybe three steps to my right. And as I was going in the woods, just fired a shot into the brush.

Senator SPECTER. You fired one shot into the bush?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And which way were you pointing?

Mr. HARRIS. I think they even got—that was right here.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And you were facing

Mr. HARRIS. And I just pointed that way.

Senator FEINSTEIN. This way?

Mr. HARRIS. Right, to where the shots were coming from.

Senator FEINSTE1N. Where were the marshals?

Mr. HARRIS. Where were they?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know where they were. All I know, I was shooting at where the smoke and the—where I saw shots being fired from.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Where did you see the first marshal?

Mr. HARRIS. Where did I see the first marshal? Standing in the road.

Senator FEINSTEIN. At the point of the Y.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator LEAHY. What were you using for a weapon?

Mr. HARRIS. 30.06.

Senator LEAHY. Were you carrying another weapon?

Mr. HARRIS. I believe I probably had a sidearm, a .22 pistol.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you, Mr. Harris.

Mr. HARRIS. You're welcome.

Senator SPECTER. Senator Kohl.

Senator KOHL. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Chairman, it is possible that we may never know exactly what happened at the Y on August 21, 1992. The only thing that we can say with certainty is that it was a terrible tragedy, a tragedy that should never have happened.

My own sense, Mr. Chairman, is that Sammy Weaver was shot by one of the marshals. It is not impossible, but in my opinion very doubtful that Randy Weaver accidentally shot his own son. But we do know that Ruby Ridge marks a sad chapter in the FBI's history. Although the FBI has been essentially unrepentant, we are beginning to get a clear picture of the errors that they made at Ruby Ridge.

Federal law enforcement thought that Randy Weaver was a deadly fanatic who had booby-trapped his compound, lived in a fortress, and fought like a Green Beret. Of course, Randy Weaver did have contemptible ideas, and he did confrontational things. But he was nowhere near as dangerous as the Federal law enforcement painted him to be.
Yet with that distorted image in mind, the FBI drafted unprecedented rules of engagement that started snipers up a hill with a green light to shoot. The killing of Marshal Degan and Sammy and Vicki Weaver are clearly the result of these mistakes, miscommunications, and errors.

Since then, the FBI seems to have been playing a game of duck and cover. The world's greatest investigative agency cannot figure out who drafted and approved the rules of engagement, written in part in its own headquarters. It has consistently ignored or evaded the findings of outside independent reviewers, and instead it has manufactured its own reports that scapegoat some and absolve everyone else. So no one on this panel is letting the FBI off the hook. That has been abundantly clear.

But while neither the Weaver family nor you, Mr. Harris, deserve what happened to you, you do not either deserve any credit. There was no honor in what you did. Clearly, you were victims, but you are not heroes Mr. Harris, we are not here to attach you~, but we are not here either to contribute to any mythology that would make you and Mr. Weaver role models. Randy Weaver really has to shoulder much of the responsibility for what happened up there. He hid from the law. He obsessed with his own irrational fears about Government. And he put a gun in the hands of his own 14-year-old, Sammy, and he contributed to filling Sammy's head with extreme rhetoric about law enforcement officers and hate.

Mr. Weaver was a fugitive from justice, and you were up there on that hill with a fugitive, a man wanted by the law. You contributed to the problem, running around with a gun, and seconding all of Mr. Weaver's unfounded fears. This is particularly ironic because you in your own statement say at the end that you felt that if you were to survive, you would be given a meaningless trial in a kangaroo court and then sent off to prison for the rest of your life or even executed. But after all you have been through, you say, "I am truly thankful for the court system that we have in this country. In many other countries," you say, "in the world, just the word of the deputy marshals would have been all it took to put me away forever, or worse. But the court system in the United States worked. It presumed me innocent, appointed lawyers to represent me, and gave me a fair trial with a jury, and the jury then acquitted me."
That is your own statement. This is your statement.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. So the question I ask you, first of all, Mr. Harris, is whether, in fact, all those conceptions that you had and Mr. Weaver had which contributed greatly to the tragedy turned out now in your own mind, as you have seen the court system unfold in this country, to have been plain, flat-out untrue. Mr. Harris?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. So is it also fair to say that if Mr. Weaver had come down off his mountain to answer the law summons and go to court, we never would have had any of this occurring?

Mr. HARRIS. That's correct.

Senator KOHL. Should he have done that?

Mr. HARRIS. I believe so, yes.

Senator KOHL. Did you encourage him to do that?

Mr. HARRIS.. At the time, no.

Senator KOHL. Why not?

Mr. HARRIS. I—he just—I wasn't around at the time that they made the—they as a family made their decision. I just—the reason I was going up there, I made sure that there was—you know, the family had the things that they needed. I just didn't

Senator KOHL. Well, but you were, you know, on and off part of that family for, what, 9 or 10 years, and you sat around and talked with them on many, many different occasions, and clearly what was unfolding was a part of all that conversation.

Could you be little bit more illustrative of your role in having, as you say, never encouraged him to come down off his mountain and face he summons? Or is that not exactly the case? You must have heard him say on many occasions, I won't, I can't, I don't want to, they won't take me. These are things that have been clearly depicted out there, and you were part of that discussion.

I am assuming—or is it incorrect to say that you yourself were not there in any way to encourage him to come off the mountain to face his summons? You didn't, or you did? Or what?

Mr. HARRIS. I remember it, when I went up there, they just said that—they told me what had happened with their fear, why they were afraid of it, and they said that Weaver wasn't going to go down, and I never questioned it or I never tried to talk him in or out of it. It was just—

Senator KOHL. Well, now, you come across as a person with convictions and thoughts and feelings. You are clearly not a person whose mind doesn't work. Your mind works very well. Why would you not have seen it as part of your interaction with the family to have an opinion on that? I mean, you wouldn't ask us to believe that you had no opinion on this whole thing?

Mr. HARRIS. I had opinions, but—

Senator KOHL. What was your opinion?

Mr. HARRIS. What was it?

Senator KOHL. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. I could see their—I read—or they told me what the situation was with the failure to appear, and I—myself, I would have gone down and tried to fight it in court. But I usually keep my opinions to myself. I never told him that I thought that he should go down or he should stay or—either way. I just listened.

Senator KOHL. All right. I don't know as we have clearly established who shot Degan or whether you took a shot at Degan, and we have gone back and forth on that several times, prior to your being here and then this morning. And I think I heard you say to Senator Specter, I didn't particularly shoot at anybody. But I think you also told television, ABC News, that you probably did kill Marshal Degan, and—.

Mr. HARRIS. They asked me if

Senator KOHL. Is that right? It is your assumption that you did kill Marshal Degan?

Mr. HARRIS. I would have to assume that, yeah, from what I heard in court and—yeah, I'd have to assume that.

Senator KOHL. All right. Mr. Harris. is it permissible for society to function if, when people disagree with the law, they just ignore it?

Mr. HARRIS. No.
Senator KOHL. Is society able to function that way?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator KOHL. No.

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator KOHL. Is it pretty clear in your mind now that the way our law and our system unfolds, for the most part people are treated fairly and justifiably in our society?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir

Senator KOHL. Would you advise most everybody you know, if not everybody you know, that you cannot take the law, as they say, into your own hands and simply ignore it?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, yeah. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. OK. Is this different from what you thought several years ago?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir, it is.

Senator KOHL. So if you had an opportunity to stand up in front of anybody and any group of people—and as you know, there are people in our society today who just don't believe in the Government, don't believe in our law, don't believe in our system, and
really want to set up their own law and their own system, you would suggest to them that that is not the way this country functions or can function? Or would You say it in your way? What would you say?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, I agree with you. It wouldn't be able to function that way.

Senator KOHL. Is it also true that you yourself have sued the U.S. Government? Or didn't I hear that correctly somewhere?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator KOHL. You have a lawsuit pending?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. For how much money is it, Mr. Harris?

Mr. NEVIN. Senator, I think the complaint prays for $10 million.

Senator KOHL. $10 million.

Mr. NEVIN. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. So you are hopeful that the law enforcement systerm in this country will work in your favor and award you $10 million?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator KOHL. All right. Well, I thank you, Mr. Harris. It is good to see you here this morning, and I thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Senator Kohl.

Senator Thompson.

Senator THOMPSON. I won't ask counsel whether or not he really expects to get $10 million, but I am sure he expects to get what he feels like he is entitled to.

Mr. Harris, what did Randy Weaver tell you about the gun charges against him and why he was failing to appear?

Mr. HARRIS. With respect to the gun charges, he told me that this guy, Gus Magisano, or whoever he is, talked him into sawing off some shotguns and making them and selling them to him. And then he told me on the failure to appear, you know, he told me that he went down there and the judge told him that if he went to court and lost that he would lose his bond. I think he put up his property as a bond or something. That's the only collateral he had. So if he went to court and lost his case, that he would lose his property. And then the other—the things about sending him—sending him a letter saying that the date was changed to March 20 and it wasn't. It was February 20 or—I don't know if I have the dates right, but something to that effect.

Senator THOMPSON. What was the significance in your mind of the fact they gave him the wrong date to appear?

Mr. HARRIS. He just—he figured they were just trying to railroad him.

Senator THOMPSON. Well, what

Mr. HARRIS. Because he wouldn't snitch for them.

Senator THOMPSON. Did you have any experiences yourself that would cause you to believe that he might have been right? Did you have an opinion at that time as to whether or not he was right in not coming down?

Mr. HARRIS. Could you repeat that, please?

Senator THOMPSON. Well, I was wondering how that affected you when he told you that the reason he was not coming down and sub-
mitting himself to arrest was because they were trying to railroad him, or words to that effect?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator THOMPSON. I mean, did you believe him? Did you think his analysis was correct?

Mr. HARRIS. I thought it was a possibility from what he had shown me and what he told me.

Senator THOMPSON. Did you feel or did Randy feel or did Vicki feel at that time that they were being surrounded by marshals or that marshals or anyone was approaching their cabin or anywhere around the cabin?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I—not that I know of.

Senator THOMPSON. Was there ever any discussion about the possibility that they may be coming to get me at any moment and they could be out in the woods right now, or anything like that?

Mr. HARRIS. No one ever discussed it. I actually never—I never thought that they would come up there like that.

Senator THOMPSON. And you say when you went to follow the dog, of course, that is a long stretch of road down there, and you point out you were vulnerable if anybody had been out there wanting to take a shot at you at that time, you certainly were vulnerable walking down there to find out what the racket was about, weren't you?

Mr. HARRIS. Right, yes.

Senator THOMPSON. Well, let me ask you this: After Sam was shot and you went back to the cabin, that was the morning of the 21st.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Between that time and the time that you were shot, what was the discussion about turning yourself in? What was the conversation inside the cabin? Obviously they were distraught over the boy being shot. But was there any additional as to whether we should turn ourselves in, why we are not going to turn ourselves in, what we ought to do?

Mr. HARRIS. No, not with me. I don't know if Randy and Vicki and the kids, if they discussed that or not. I spent most of the night that night by myself. And I didn't—I don't remember having much conversation at all.

Senator THOMPSON. I thought I heard you say that after Sam was shot and he was out in the shed, and right before Randy was shot, you went out to the rocks and you were looking around out there for a period of time?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, we were out on the rocks.

Senator THOMPSON. We? You or— Mr. HARRIS. We all three went out to the rock, and then there's a path that goes—instead of going back down to the driveway, you can go straight over to the shed there.

Senator THOMPSON. Why were you at the rocks there?

Mr. HARRIS. Sir, the dog was whining, and, you know, they get wrapped up in the chain. You know, they get wrapped around a tree, and they whine because they can't move or something. It was that kind of a—she wanted to check on him, and Sam had some— he had a little box out there of stuff and there was a battery in there I was going to get for a flashlight, a little penlight.

Senator THOMPSON. Didn't you think you might have been in some danger by going out there after having had the gunfight?

Mr. HARRIS. I never once even—no way could I imagine that— you know, that they would just start shooting.

Senator THOMPSON. It didn't occur to you even then that you were being observed?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator THOMPSON. Where were you at the moment that Randy was shot there at the shed?

Mr. HARRIS. I was still over on the rocks.

Senator THOMPSON. What were you doing at the precise moment that he was shot, as best you remember?

Mr. HARRIS. Right when he got shot, I was—I just got done with what I was doing over there. I got my battery, and I was just— I just stood up and was just walking toward the shed.

Senator THOMPSON. How far away were you from the shed at that time?

Mr. HARRIS. I'd say 50 feet or so. I really don't know.

Senator THOMPSON. Did you have your rifle with you?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Where is the latch on the shed door located?

Mr. HARRIS. It's kind of like—well, for me it would be right about where my head is, and it's just a piece of—a little piece of wood nailed in there. It turns sideways so it won't let the door come open. You just turn it, and the door will open.

Senator THOMPSON. At the moment of the shot, where was your rifle? Was it in your hands?

Mr. HARRIS. Right. It would have been in my right hand.

Senator THOMPSON. Were you aiming it in any particular direction?
Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. You say your right hand. Were you carrying it at your side?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, down at my side, in my right hand.

Senator THOMPSON. You didn't hear a helicopter at that time?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Did you hear a helicopter at any time prior to that?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Any time after that?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know if we heard one that evening or not. I don't recall.

Senator THOMPSON. At some time do you recall a helicopter being in the area?

Mr. HARRIS. Later that day, you mean?

Senator THOMPSON. Well, at any time.

Mr. HARRIS. Oh. Oh, yeah. Well, during the—in the next 9 days or so, yeah, there was helicopters all the time flying around.

Senator THOMPSON. After Vicki was shot?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah.

Senator THOMPSON. Getting to that point, you all ran back to the house.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. There was some testimony that when you ar­rived at the doorway, you may have stopped momentarily at the door and looked back. Is that true?

Mr. HARRIS. I know I didn't look back, but I did—when Randy and Sara got to the door, they kind of slowed-—you know, they slowed down to go through the door, and I was—I had to kind of slow—I slowed way down so I just wouldn't run over them. And I know I wasn't looking back because I was looking at Vicki.

Senator THOMPSON. Had the Weavers made any preparations for a standoff in terms of supplies or fortifications or anything of that nature?

Mr. HARRIS. Not until after Vicki was shot. Then I think they filled up water jugs.

Senator THOMPSON. I am sure that you are aware of the reputa­tion that Randy and Vicki had developed with law enforcement au­thorities. Do you feel that Randy was a dangerous person?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't feel that, no.

Senator THOMPSON. Do you have any opinion as to how he de­rived this dangerous reputation? Did you hear him talk about re­sistance? Did you hear him talk about shooting law enforcement officers or taking them with him or anything of that nature?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator THOMPSON. You were aware of his opinions.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. I am sure, his religious opinions and his opinions about the Government and things of that nature?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator THOMPSON. And that he was not—he knew that there was a warrant for his arrest, and yet he was not submitting him­self to that.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, Sir.

Senator THOMPSON. You have known him for a period of years, and you have heard testimony, I am sure, about various people who said he's made comments over the years about resisting and all of that. You never heard him make any comments like that ever over a period of years?

Mr. HARRIS. Not with—not in that context. In The context of, you know, if everything falls
apart, you know, there's no Government or anything, like Armageddon kind of thing. In that context, I—

Senator THOMPSON. You never heard of that? You never heard him talk in those terms?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, yes . Yes, that's the context I did hear—

Senator THOMPSON. Those are the contexts—

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, right.

Senator THOMPSON. Are you familiar with the letters that Vicki wrote?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator THOMPSON. Is that the way she talked? Did she share Randy's beliefs in that regard?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator THOMPSON. Was she encouraging him not to submit to law enforcement authorities?

Mr. HARRIS. I think they made the decision together. I don't know if she encouraged it or—like I said, I wasn't around when
this—that part happened. I was in Spokane or somewhere, so I don't know.

Senator THOMPSON. The question has arisen as to when the au­thorities knew of Sam's death. You testified that when you came back down to get Sam's body that you were in clear view. Do you know whether or not law enforcement officers saw you take Sam off at that point?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I didn't actually—wasn't there when they went and got Sam. I went down—I went down right after—I took off from where I was, circled around and came back down and checked to make sure he wasn't—or checked to see if he was dead or not. And then I went up and told Randy and Vicki, and they went down, back down to the Y and got him and brought him up to the lower garden. And then I went down and helped them take him the rest of the way up.

Senator THOMPSON. What about from that point, from the time he was shot that night, you said the girls were crying, I believe.

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah.

Senator THOMPSON. Were there any shouts or anything that was audible, any statements made, anything directed at what officers might be in the area or anything of that nature? Is there any reason to believe that the officers knew or did not know that Sammy Weaver had been shot and killed?

Mr. HARRIS. Other than—I never heard anything, no.

Senator THOMPSON. So do you have an opinion about it?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, I guess I misunderstand you.

Senator THOMPSON. OK.

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, when Vicki and Randy went down there, they were—I could hear them from where I was. I could hear them scream, Vicki screaming and wailing and Randy yelling and shout­ing from where I was up at the cabin. I was on the rocks with the girls.

Senator THOMPSON, Mr. Chairman, I believe that is all I have. Thank you.

Senator SPECTER. Thanks very much, Senator Thompson.

Senator Leahy.

Senator LEAHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me make sure. We have gone over this before, but I want to make sure absolutely what kind of weapon everybody was carrying. You mentioned this before. Tell us again. What were you carrying?

Mr. HARRIS. I was carrying ~ Remington-or a 30.06 rifle. Arid—

Senator LEAHY. A pump bolt lever?

Mr. HARRIS. A bolt action.

Senator LEAHY. Bolt action.

Mr. HARRIS. And I believe I was wearing a .22 pistol in a holster.

Senator LEAHY. And Sam?

Mr. HARRIS. He would have had a .357 pistol and a mini-14 .223.

Senator LEAHY. Did he normally carry a .357? I mean, they de­scribed him as a pretty tiny-------

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, it was—I think he bought that pistol. It was his, I think.

Senator LEAHY. And Randy Weaver?

Mr. HARRIS. He would have been carrying a double-barrel shot­gun and a 9-millimeter pistol.

Senator LEAHY. Do you know what kind of a load he had in the 9-millimeter?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, I don't.

Senator LEAHY. Were they jacketed bullets?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know.

Senator LEAHY. Semiautomatic, though?

Mr. HARRIS. Right, yes.

Senator LEAHY. So in all likelihood, jacketed?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know.

Senator LEAHY. OK. You described for us what happened when the shooting occurred of the dog and the other shooting. It was all in a fairly short period of time. Is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. Right, yeah.

Senator LEAHY. And do you know where Randy was standing? I mean, did you have any sight of him at all during that time?

Mr. HARRIS. When I was down at the Y, I never saw him. I heard him calling for Sam and me to come up there, but I never saw him.

Senator LEAHY. When you heard him call, were you able to judge by the sound of his voice how far away he was?

Mr. HARRIS. Not how far, because the sound's weird in the moun­tains there. But I could tell he was up behind us.

Senator LEAHY. You couldn't tell whether he was close or far?

Mr. HARRIS. No, I wouldn't have been able to tell.

Senator LEAHY. But certainly close enough you could hear him?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator LEAHY. Now, the marshals have testified that the 19 rounds of ammunition, just the shell casings that they recovered from the Y, don't reflect the total amount of gunfire there. Do you agree with the marshals on that?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know.

Senator LEAHY. Do you have any feeling yourself how many rounds were fired?

Mr. HARRIS. It seemed like there was a lot more fire coming to­wards me than what was there, but other than that, I don't know.

Senator LEAHY. Whether it was 19 or 10 or 30, you have no idea?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator LEAHY. Randy Weaver testified that he shot off a bunch of rounds after he heard shots at the Y. Did you hear those shots?

Mr. HARRIS. I wouldn't have—I couldn't have distinguished which shots came from where. It was all pretty much, you know, all together in my hearing. I mean, I—

Senator LEAHY. If he fired the shotgun, that would have a pretty distinctive sound as compared to the other weapons that were being fired, would it not?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah

Senator LEAHY. Did you hear a shotgun?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't remember hearing any—no. I couldn't have told the difference between them.

Senator LEAHY. You would not have been able to tell the dif­ference whether he was firing his 9-millimeter pistol?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator LEAHY. If he did fire, as he testified, a series of rounds after he heard shots a the Y and after he found Sammy had been shot, could the marshals have thought those were shots directed at them?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't think I understand.

Senator LEAHY. Well, Mr. Weaver has testified that he fired off a series of rounds. Is there any way that the marshalls who were there, because of where Mr. Weaver was located, would have thought those were shots fired at them?
Mr. HARRIS. Oh, OK, I understand. Yeah, they could have. Yeah.

Senator LEAHY. You were not there when they went back to pick up Sam?

Mr. HARRIS. No, I wasn't.

Senator LEAHY. But you had gone over to check Sam?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, before I came back up.

Senator LEAHY. And it was clear to you he was dead?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. And where was his rifle?

Mr. HARRIS. Laying beside him.

Senator LEAHY. And had it been fired?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't check.

Senator LEAHY. And when they picked up Sam, did they pick up the rifle, too?

Mr. HARRIS. I believe so, yes.

Senator LEAHY. Do you know whether anybody ever checked to see whether the rifle had been fired or rounds missing or anything else?

Mr. HARRIS. No, I don't—I don't think so.

Senator LEAHY. And you fired how many shots?

Mr. HARRIS. From—I only remember firing twice, but I guess they found 3 shell casings from my rifle.
Senator LEAHY. That was from your 30.06?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. This follows up a little bit on what Senator Thompson had asked. You know, Randy Weaver knew that he had been in court; he knew he was going to have to go back to court at some time. Is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator LEAHY. This was before the shooting.

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, OK Yes.

Senator LEAHY. Did he ever talk about what he would do if some­body just drove up to the door and said, hey, Weaver, you're over­due for court, let's go?

Mr. HARRIS. The only thing I can remember him saying about it is he was up—I can't--somebody was up there, and he was talking to him, and he said if one of them came up there and wanted to sit down and have coffee with him, that he'd sit down and have cof­fee and discuss it. But that's the only thing I remember.

Senator LEAHY. But did he say whether he would go with them?

Mr. HARRIS. No, he—I don't remember him saying.

Senator LEAHY. Did he ever indicate that he wouldn't go, that he would fight rather than go?

Mr. HARRIS. No, I don't think so. No.

Senator LEAHY. But there was never any direct discussion, with him saying: "under these circumstances I will leave, I will go back to court?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Were there any specific plans if anybody tried to arrest him at the cabin what he would do.

Mr. HARRIS. No, not that I know of.

Senator LEARY. Nothing discussed with you?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Did he ask you to become involved in any way in his court matter?

Mr. HARRIS. in his court matter?

Senator LEAHY. Well, the initial court—

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, no, sir.

Senator LEAHY. It's interesting because when Randy Weaver testified, he said that if he could do it over again, he would have appeared in court in 1991 on his original gun charge. But you had no sense of that kind of discussion during—prior to the shooting we've described here?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. The Marshals Service had set up two video surveillance cameras that were focused on the Weaver cabin in April and May of 1992. Did you know about those cameras?

Mr. HARRIS. I knew about one of them.

Senator LEAHY. How did you know that?

Mr. HARRIS. Sara took a walk up the mountain one day and found them—found it, one of them.

Senator LEAHY. Found one?
Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, there——yeah. We didn't know about the other one.

Senator LEAHY Did you do Anything with the one you found?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. Sam and I went up and dismantled it and put it in boxes and put it in the shed.

Senator LEAHY. You just took it down?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator LEAHY. Was any discussion made because of these cameras that the marshals were coming close or somebody's coming close to the time of arresting Randy Weaver?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't remember any discussions, but I remember thinking that, you know, that might deter him from—like they really didn’t want to come around, so they put up a camera in­stead, and then the camera was gone so maybe they wouldn't— they'd just wait until Weaver came down off the mountain.

Senator LEAHY. Did you assume they put up another camera?

Mr. HARRIS. No—no, I never—.

Senator LEAHY. Did you take any precautions or act accordingly because a camera might be there?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Let's go to the time of the actual shooting where you were shot and Ms. Weaver was shot. You've seen the door here, and I assume that pretty much looks like the door did the day of the shooting?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Same kind of curtains?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Do you know whether the curtains were open or closed?

Mr. HARRIS. I would assume they were open.

Senator LEAHY. Why would you assume that, Mr. Harris?
Mr. HARRIS. I don't ever remember seeing them closed until we were in there the 9 days.

Senator LEAHY. Was this a cabin with a lot of light in it?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't understand.

Senator LEAHY. Is this a cabin with a lot of windows, a lot of light coming into the cabin, or was it a fairly dark cabin?

Mr. HARRIS. It was fairly light. I think.

Senator LEAHY. And it was your recollection that the curtains were normally open?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, air.

Senator LEAHY. Did you hear any of the testimony of the people who were involved in the surveillance, the sharpshooters who testi­fied here in these hearings?

Mr. HARRIS. Just sort of it, but not very much.

Senator LEAHY. Well, part of the testimony was that because of the overhang of the cabin, that from the positions the sharp­shooters were in, a couple hundred yards away, that they thought it was a solid door. They didn't realize there was a window in the door. Does that make sense to you?

[No response.]

Senator LEAHY. Well, let's see. You know where the sharp­shooters were?

Mr. HARRIS. About where they were, yeah.

Senator LEAHY. Approximately.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator LEAHY. If you were standing about level where they were, would you have a good view of that door?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, I believe so, yes.

Senator LEAHY. Would you be able to tell that there was a win­dow in the door, or would the overhang of the shed block that view?

Mr. HARRIS. I think you could—I think you’d be able to see it. I've never been over there and looked, though.

Senator LEAHY. But you were familiar with the door, anyway, so you know there is a window.

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, right.

Senator LEAHY. Did Randy Weaver ever discuss with you selling guns as a way to make extra money?

Mr. HARRIS. Not—well, he told—I found out about the shotgun deal after the fact. He told me about it. But he never— not before that, no.

Senator LEAHY. I mean, after the fact, how long after the fact?

Mr. HARRIS. After he had been arrested.

Senator LEAHY. But before the standoff that we've discussed and after he was arrested.—

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, right.

Senator LEAHY. After he was arrested, but before the shootings?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator LEAHY. And what was the nature of that discussion?

Mr. HARRIS. He just told me that he—that this guy Magisano had come up to him and offered him money to saw off some shot guns, and he said he needed the money, so he did it.

Senator LEAHY. Did he talk about making more?

Mr. HARRIS. Not to me, he didn't, no.
Senator LEAHY. Did he talk to you about whether you might want to be involved in this?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir. I wasn't living up there at the time or wasn't around.

Senator LEAHY. Did he say how many shotguns he sold to him?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah. He said he sold two.

Senator LEAHY. Did he have any material there or appear to be making any more sawed-off shotguns?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Did you ever see him make a sawed off shotgun?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. And he never talked about selling more?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, he didn't.

Senator LEAHY. To that informant or to anybody else?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know if he did to that informant or not. I—

Senator LEAHY. No. My question, Mr. Harris: Did he ever talk about selling sawed-off shotguns to anybody other than this one individual?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator LEAHY. You had heard dogs bark before August 21 before there had been any shots fired, had you not?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Did that indicate to you that people might be around, or was it just a common occurrence?

Mr. HARRIS. It happened all the time They barked at all kinds of things.

Senator LEAHY. Did you have a lot of game in the woods around there?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. What kind of game?

Mr. HARRIS. Pretty much there's bear, like 3 weeks or a month before, a moose ran right—me and Sara were sitting out on the back porch, and here goes a moose right by the back porch and up the mountain, and the dogs were right on their tail. And there's bear and elk and there's cougar and bobcat, and all kinds—

Senator LEAHY. Would that get the dogs going?

Mr. HARRIS. If they were in the area, yes.

Senator LEAHY. Now, Deputy Marshall Cooper and Roderick who were at the shootout on August 21 testified later on September 15, 1992, that you and Randy Weaver were trying to ambush them at the Y and that you were "using a maneuver like someone hunting rabbits." Is that correct that you and Randy Weaver were trying to ambush the people you might have been chasing at Ruby Ridge?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know if you—how much hunting you've done, but a lot of times if you got an area where you want to—

Senator LEAHY. I've done my share.

Mr. HARRIS. OK, so you understand that if you want to—if you're going to walk down one road, you have the possibility of having something running away from you and you don't see it. So if you have somebody over here—we call it bird-dogging. But, I mean, I never—I didn't mean to do that with a person. It was—if a deer bounced off down through there, took that way instead of the way we were going up the trail, then Randy would have been able to get a shot at it.

Senator LEAHY. Mr. Chairman, can I ask just one more question?

Senator SPECTER. Yes.

Senator LEAHY. Randy Weaver testified that the body of Sammy appeared to have been moved. What do you make of a~1 that? And do you believe it was? I realize you weren't with him when he went back up, but— Mr. HARRIS. Right. I don't know. When I left Sam down there, I had rolled him over on his back so I could check hi8 pulse and see his wounds, and I guess Randy says when he got there, he was laying on his stomach.

Senator LEAHY. And he was dead when you left him?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator LEAHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Senator Leahy.

Senator Abraham.

Senator ABRAHAM. Thanks.

Mr. Harris, as I read your testimony and to the extent I have been able to be here—I've got a simultaneous committee meeting going on which I apologize for having to go back and forth—it is my understanding you came down with Sammy Weaver; the dog was with you; you saw the man with the pistol. A dog went over by the man with the pistol. Then at that point was he—or did he kind of come back away from that man and then was shot? Is that what happened?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah. He kind of turned in a circle and was facing back up toward—back up the hill when he was shot.

Senator ABRAHAM. All right.

Mr. HARRIS. I guess back up towards the cabin.

Senator ABRAHAM. Right. But he had gone up to the guy with the pistol. That wasn't the person who shot him. The dog moved away from there, and then he was shot. You are not sure who shot him, but at that point—

Mr. HARRIS. Right. I assumed that it was a man in the—

Senator ABRAHAM. So that was shot No. 1, at the dog.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. Then you say Sammy Weaver took his gun and sort of began yelling, "You shot my dog," brandished his weapon. At this point you begin to take cover. Is that

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I wouldn't use the word "brandished." He—I don't—all I saw was he said, "You shot my dog," and then he start­ed to turn up this way and look in the direction of where the guy went, and he was bringing his rifle up with him like this, and then I went—as he was doing ~ at, I was moving at the same time head­ed the other direction.

Senator ABRAHAM. OK. And you say it was at that point that you heard shots, you didn't see who shot them, who fired them.

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't see who was shooting them, but I saw shell casing. I remember seeing shell casing lying around, and the smoke, puffs of smoke.

Senator ABRAHAM. But you were kind of moving out of——

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, I was—yeah, right.

Senator ABRAHAM. You never saw Sam again, right? I mean, you just took cover. Is that what happened?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. And he went in another direction up into the brush. Is that what happened? Or we don't~—you don't know?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't see where he went.

Senator ABRAHAM. But you testified here that apparently where the casings connected to his weapon were found was not at that point where the dog was, but some distance—so that—does that I guess what I'm getting to, then it is your belief that the flurry of shots that you heard as you were taking cover also came from the marshals?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, that's where I believe they're coming from.

Senator ABRAHAM. So Sam did not shoot at that point because there were no casings—unless the casing were moved somehow by somebody.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. And you don't know that, obviously.

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator ABRAHAM. So it is your testimony that the marshals shot at the dog and then shot at Sammy Weaver at that spot. That is your belief as to what happened?

Mr. HARRIS. Right, and myself.

Senator ABRAHAM. But Sammy didn't fall at that spot, right?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, he didn't.

Senator ABRAHAM. During the time that you and Randy Weaver were engaged in being up there over the years in your visits and so on, we have heard a lot of comments from people who purported to know him or did know him or knew of him. Many of them seem to me to be descriptions of somebody who was quite hostile, to say the least, to Government agents, Federal Government agents and so on. Had you heard him make hostile comments about such people?

Mr. HARRIS. Not about certain agents or anything, but—

Senator ABRAHAM. Not individuals. I just mean about the Federal Government or people from—

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah. Weaver, he would—he likes to talk, so he— I never took Weaver for hostile, though.

Senator ABRAHAM. Would you say he was a big talker, then? He was just kind of more bark than bite? Is that—

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. [continuing] How you would characterize Randy Weaver?
But did he—were you ever with him when there were ever any confrontations with anybody, neighbors, people on the property who shouldn't have been there, et cetera?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Never?

Mr. HARRIS. Uh-uh.

Senator ABRAHAM. Did you ever hear about any?

Mr. HARRIS. I heard about once with some—WilhoIly? Sam WiIholly. He told me that Wilholly was mad at him about some thing. I can't remember, but that WiIhoIly said that he was going to do bad things to Weaver. I can't remember what he said, but I think that's the only one I recall.

Senator ABRAHAM. OK. So you never—did you ever have a dis­cussion with Randy Weaver with respect to what would happen if Federal agents were on his property?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. How about trespassers, anybody?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator ABRAHAM. Never, in all the time you were up there, the many, many visits?

Mr. HARRIS. No, he never said he would do anything to anybody.

Senator ABRAHAM. All right. So I guess my next question is this:

When you came down into the bird-dogging maneuver, I guess you called it, given the way you were proceeding, would a person rather than an animal have possibly been able to draw the conclusion that that maneuver, if it was going on, was intended to flush them out, cause them to—

Mr. HARRIS. I imagine.

Senator ABRAHAM. If you had been down here and you had seen two guys coming or had the sense that there were people coming one way and people coming the other, you might have reached that conclusion that you were the target of—

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Did it ever occur to you that it might be a person when you were doing this?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator ABRAHAM. Had you ever seen people up in this area before when you were visiting?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. I guess my question is this: Given that you feel that it would have been possible to certainly feel you were a target if this maneuver was going on, when you saw a person dressed in the camouflage with a pistol, what did you think? What thoughts went through your head at that point? Were you worried? What were you feeling?

Mr. HARRIS. I was—all I remember thinking about was trying to et the dog off the guy, because the dog was going for his hands.
I could tell that he was just trying to play with him, but, you know, with that kind of a dog, if you don't know the dog, you would have thought he was going to bite you. So my first.—that's the wily thing I remember thinking, is getting that dog, you, know, getting him away from that guy.

Senator ABRAHAM. So you never—you didn't sense you were in any danger at that point— Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM [continuing]. Or that that person with a pistol—I mean, in this remote area you come upon guy with a pistol and—

Mr. HARRIS. Well, it wasn't Weaver's property.

Senator ABRAHAM. Was that unusual?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, it—-

Senator ABRAHAM. That part was beyond Weavers property?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, it wasn't Weaver's property.

Senator ABRAHAM. When you went out on the day that you were shot, we heard testimony at there had been a helicopter in the vicinity. Was there ever a helicopter that day in the vicinity that you recall?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator ABRAHAM. Never?

Mr. HARRIS. Not that I recall.

Senator ABRAHAM. So when you went outside, it had not even any relationship either to an existing helicopter or anything that had happened prior to that at 6 o'clock that evening?

Mr. HARRIS. Nothing, no

Senator ABRAHAM. And did you have Randy Weaver in your field of vision at the point when he was shot?

Mr. HARRIS. Say that--—--

Senator  ABRAHAM. Could you see Randy when he was shot, or was he hidden by the shed?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I could see him.

Senator ABRAHAM. And what was he doing?

Mr. HARRIS. He was opening the door.

Senator ABRAHAM. And where was his gun?

Mr. HARRIS. In his left hand.

Senator ABRAHAM. In what position?

Mr. HARRIS. Holding the top of the stock. You know, the stock.

Senator ABRAHAM. He was holding it in the air and he was opening a door.

Mr. HARRIS. Right. He was reaching up like this to open the latch.

Senator ABRAHAM. Was there any way you could view his position or the positioning of the gun as posing any kind of effort to shoot at anything? Could you have shot the gun in that position?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. It would have taken changing completely the—

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. And then he was shot, and then you began running to the house. When you were running to the house, all three of you had weapons. Correct?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. And you could see Sara Weaver and Randy Weaver ahead of you, right?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Did any of you have the gun in a shooting position, the guns you were in a shooting position as you were heading into the house?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Your guns were whatever position you held them in to run. Is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. There was no way you could have fired a shot

Mr. HARRIS. No. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. It could be fairly said you were headed for cover?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Would anybody seeing it have known that?

Mr. HARRIS. I would assume so, yes.

Senator ABRAHAM. When you went outside with your weapons on that day, why did you take them?

Mr. HARRIS. Mostly out of habit. I don’t know. The day before, it seems like, you know, we walked—we were walking through the woods, and somebody just started shooting. And that’s the way I perceived it. And I couldn’t see being—you know, going out, outside again and not being armed.

Senator ABRAHAM. So you felt—you did not—but you knew by that afternoon when you went outside that you were being accused of having—

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. [continuing]. Murdered a U.S. marshal. So you went outside, you had some reason to believe that there would be possible other U.S. marshals or Federal officials might be out there? did you think that might be the case?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I knew they’d be on their way or they’d come up and they’d, you know, start saying, OK, you guys got to, you know, put away your guns and come out, or whatever you know, come out with your hands up, or whatever. That’s what I was waiting for. And—

Senator ABRAHAM. And would you have shot at them?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM If you had gone outside and you had seen a person, would you have shot them?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, not unless they were shooting at me.

Senator ABRAHAM. OK. Obviously you knew Randy Weaver very well. Did you know, did you have a sense of the reputation he had in the area and in the community as being somebody—I mean I am not asking you to comment on his political views at all here, but would you say that you were pretty familiar with the image and reputation he had?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. Would you say that if you were —based on that reputation, would a person sent to arrest Randy Weaver have a reason to be careful if they went up on that mountain?

Mr. HARRIS. If you were to take to heart what the neighbors were saying, yeah, you might get that—you know, get a bad impression of him.

Senator ABRAHAM. Given the particularly remote circumstances that there is up there at Ruby Ridge, so if you were going up there into a neighborhood where there were houses and driveways and everything.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. You would be normally probably cautions, but give the reputation of Weaver, you think it would have been—I am not trying to condone anybody shooting anybody here without warning an so on.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator ABRAHAM. But the marshals have talked to us about it, and their version certainly is that their conduct was consistent with the threat they were—at least that they believed or that rumor suggested Randy Weaver had, and you were aware of that threat, too? You don't find their behavior in that sense to be that unusual? If you were going up there, you would have been concerned, too?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator ABRAHAM. OK. Because we have heard, there were lots of claims, many of them fallacious, as it turned out, but that there were dugouts and hideouts and lots of weaponry?

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah, right.

Senator ABRAHAM. And that was the common view in the community of what might be up there?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir, it was.

Senator ABRAHAM. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you very much, Senator Abraham.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Harris, do you remember what day of the week August 21st was?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. It was Friday.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And you said that you came up to the cabin the weekend before?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator FEINSTEIN. What day did you come up?

Mr. HARRIS. Or, ma'am. Sorry.

Senator FEINSTEIN. What day did you arrive at the cabin?

Mr. HARRIS. I'm not sure. It was—

Senator FEINSTEIN. Friday? Saturday? Sunday?

Mr. HARRIS. It was the weekend sometime, yeah. I don't remember which day.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Well, so would it have been fair to say you were there on Sunday the week before?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So you were there Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma’am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And Friday. You knew that the surveillance camera had been found.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And you helped take it apart and put it in a box. You were aware, of course, that the family was responding to various noises, and you participated in those responses, did you not, by where they would go out by the rocks?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And at that point when you got there, everyone was armed all the time?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am—wel1, except for Vicki and—-she wasn't armed all the time. But the majority of the time, yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And Rachel was armed on that day, the 21st?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall if she was or not.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Rachel—

Mr. HARRIS. She usually carried a pistol.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And how old was Rachel?

Mr. HARRIS. I think she was 10.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK. And at the time Sara was how old?

Mr. HARRIS. I believe she was 16.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And Sammy was 14?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Right? OK.
Now, I want to go over—when we were over at that diorama and you left the cabin and you showed us the trail you walked on down into the fern field to the Y, how far would you say that was from the house—a quarter of a mile, a half-mile, three-quarters of a mile, or a mile?

Mr. HARRIS. Either a quarter-mile or half-mile, something like that. I really don't know.

Senator FEINSTEIN. All right. And how fast were you going?

Mr. HARRIS. Just walking.

Senator FEINSTEIN. You were just walking and you were able to keep up with the dog just walking?

Mr. HARRIS. The dog was just walking.

Senator FEINSTEIN. The dog was just walking.

Mr. HARRIS. Yeah. He wasn't running or anything.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK. So you walkEd the whole way?

Mr. HARRIS. Until we got right to the Y, yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. All right. Do you remember when you got to the Y hearing Randy Weaver hollering or yelling as he ran?

Mr. HARRIS. Not until after the shooting started. I heard him afterwards. I heard him hollering for us to come home.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you hear him say anything about seeing men in camouflage?

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And he didn't tell you that a camouflaged man had the drop on him at one point and could have shot him?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't—no, I didn't hear Randy until after the shooting.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK. Let's talk a little bit about the shooting because your prior statements and what you have said today are at variance.
Did you recall a six-page handwritten statement that Sara Weaver put together

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am

Senator FEINSTEIN [continuing]. That you signed and then she sort of smuggled it out of the cabin so that everyone would know the truth?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And this was presented because she was afraid everyone would not know the truth, right?

Mr. HARRIS. She wrote that, she didn't think we were going to, she thought we would all die right there. So—

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK.

Mr. HARRIS [continuing]. She wanted something said about what happened.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK, well, we will get to that in a minute. Let me go back for a second. You were, at least 5 or 6 days, you knew that Randy Weaver had an arrest warrant out for him, right?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And everyone was armed all of the time?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you never ask whether he intended to surrender?

Mr. HARRIS. No, Ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. You knew there was surveillance on the hill. You knew there were practice maneuvers of the family responding to noises. What was the plan if suddenly people came up the hill?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall any practice maneuvers or—when, on those tapes—are you referring to the video tapes where everybody runs out to the rock?

Senator FEINSTEIN. No. Obviously there were cameras that took pictures of the family responding to various noises where each member of the family would go in the clearing where the rock was, armed.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, but I never saw that as a, you know, let's go get ready to have a shootout. There was, there was just, you know, just the family up there and myself some of the times. And, you know, you kind of start to get on each other's nerves. And you're kind of boring, and, you know, there's and somebody coming up the hill, you know, coming to visit, you know, we'd go a 1½, 2 months of not seeing anybody come up or anything, you know.

So it was, I mean it was a big thing for somebody to come visit. And that's why, you know, that's what I think all the running was about, was getting out there, you know, who's coming to visit and, you know, they'd bring stuff for the kids and stuff, do you know what I mean?

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK.

Mr. HARRIS. So, I never

Senator FEINSTEIN. So each person of the family would to go the set place where they went

Mr. HARRIS. No.

Senator FEINSTEIN [continuing]. Each time there was a noise or you thought somebody was coming up the mountain?
Mr. HARRIS. No. There was no set, no. Just out to the rock where you could see who was coming.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK. Now, you testified today or you indicated today that you thought that when Striker started barking that it was some animal. And in the statement on August 26, that is signed by yourself and every member the family, let me read the first part to you.

"Sam said he heard something or someone running west. So they followed. Sam and Kevin followed Striker. Randy dropped down on the old logging road and headed west."

Now, we will go to your part of the statement. You say,

Me, Kevin Harris, and Sam followed Striker through the woods until we came out on the road that forks off the one Randy was on and runs north. We, Kevin and Striker, headed south towards the same road Randy was on. Striker reached the corner first, then Sam and then me. A camouflaged person was in the road and he shot Striker. Sam yelled, "You shot Striker, you son-of-a-bitch." And they pointed a gun at Sam. Sam opened fire. I, Kevin, took cover beside a stump and Sam headed up the road toward home. It appeared as though Sam had been wounded in the right arm. Also Sam yelled, "Oh, shit, Kevin, come on", and headed home.
The men were still shooting at Sam so I shot one of the sons-of-bitches. After they killed Sam one of the Feds jumped out of the woods and for the first time declared he was a Federal Marshal.

Is that the way it went, what you said, initially?

Mr. HARRIS. Is that the way it happened?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. Basically but there—I mean when I said Sam was shooting, I was assuming that he had. It was an assumption. I saw him start to lift his rifle so I assumed that he was shooting. And then when I—

Senator FEINSTEIN. All right, well, that is different than what
you said today. Because if I understand your statement today you do not really say that you shot the marshal. You say you shot into the trees.

Mr. HARRIS. Right. That, too, was an assumption. I heard on the radio that they said that I shot him and I just assumed that I had. And if, I mean to— I still assume that, yes.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So you are saying today that you never saw him, is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. That's correct.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And you never heard him say, U.S. marshal, back off?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I never heard that, no.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you hear Randy Weaver calling and say, Kevin, Sam, get on up to the house?

Mr. HARRIS. After the shooting, yes, I did.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So, you are. saying today that the first time that you heard anyone say, U.S. marshal, was when?

Mr. HARRIS. When the guy jumped out on the road and said, U.S. marshals.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Was that before or after you shot?

Mr. HARRIS. After.

Senator FEINSTEIN. You are sure Randy Weaver, you never talked about surrendering? Did you ever urge him to surrender?

Mr. HARRIS. No, ma'am. I didn't feel that it was my place.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And there was no conversation, in the week that you were in the house, about surrendering or what was going to happen? You had a 10-year-old little girl armed and there was no talk about why she was armed or what might happen?

Mr. HARRIS. Before any of this happened, the kids were armed then. When they were, you know, before any of this ever came about the kids carried guns. Rachel didn't because she wasn't old enough yet. But when she got old enough, the same age as the other kids started, they first got the BB gun and they got this and then they got whatever.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Now, in your original statement you didn't say anything in your statement about looking for a deer. When did the subject of a deer first come up?

Mr. HARRIS. Which

Senator FEINSTEIN. A deer or an animal?

Mr. NEVIN. Senator, I don't mean to interject here, but he did mention an animal in his statement to the FBI and there is also a reference to something or someone in the handwritten statement.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Could you point that out to me in the hand-written statement?

Mr. NEVIN. Sure.

Senator FEINSTEIN. I would appreciate that very much.

Mr. NEVIN. Yes. On page 1 of the handwritten statement,—

Senator FEINSTEIN. Page 1?

Mr. NEVIN. Yes, page one of the handwritten statement.
"Sam said he heard something or someone running west."

Senator FEINSTEIN. But that is not Kevin's statement. Kevin's statement, I believe, begins on page 3 where it begins, "Me, Kevin Harris* * *"?

Mr. NEVIN. That is correct, Senator. And it does not address the question of why they went. It is just a sequential statement of what happened when he followed Striker through the woods. That is—excuse me.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Prior statement, you saw Sam Weaver turn and run up the road after he was hit and wounded in the right arm, is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't know what the statement says but I didn't, I didn't, I knew he was going up behind me because he was down by—could you ask it again, please?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes, I would be happy to.

According to your dictated statement you saw Sammy Weaver turn and run up the road after he was hit and wounded in the right arm, is that right?

Mr. HARRIS. What I have here, it doesn't say that I saw it, it just says that he did it.

Senator FEINSTEIN. How did you know he did if you didn't see it?

Mr. HARRIS~ Well, I could hear him hollering. He was hollering back and forth to Weaver and he was yelling to me and it just seemed like he was getting further away from me.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So you didn't know he was hit in the arm?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't know where he was hit. He made a sound like he, you know, like if you smash your hand, you'd go, ahh, shh—, you know, he made that sound. So I didn't know where he was hit. I just assumed that he'd been hit.

Senator FEINSTEIN. All right. So you didn't see Sammy. So, can you dispute that he turned and began to fire back into the Y?

Mr. HARRIS. No, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So, in essence, you really don't know whether he fired that first shot?

Mr. HARRIS. That first shot? I know that he didn't fire the first shot at the Y. The first shot at the Y was the shot at the dog and other than that, I don't know.

Senator FEINSTEIN. But you don’t know whether he fired then the first shot at the deputies?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't—no, I don't. Other than from the evidence that they brought out in trial where his shell casings were found. Other than that, no, ma'am, I don't.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Now, you didn't see Sammy at any time then at the Y, is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. At the point—

Senator FEINSTEIN. You didn't see him get shot in the back; you didn't see him get shot in the arm?

Mr. HARRIS. No, ma’am, I didn't.

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK, thank you very much.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you, Senator Feinstein.
Before yielding to Senator Craig, I want to ask you just one question about something which both Senator Thompson and Senator Feinstein brought up. Senator Thompson asked you whether it occurred to you that you were being observed and you answered, no. But Senator Feinstein asked you about taking down the video camera which the marshals had put up and you testified that you did know that that was taken down and that you participated in it yourself

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator SPECTER. Now, the question I have for you, Mr. Harris, is in the context that you knew that Mr. Weaver had not responded to the pending court charges and that the video camera was up to observe what was going on, didn't you have some sense that some Federal law enforcement officers might well come into the area to take Mr. Weaver into custody so that they could compel him to stand trial?

Mr. HARRIS. No. When I—I assumed they didn't want to be in the area. And so that's why they used their Video camera thingy they had up there if they didn't want to be up in that area.

Senator SPECTER. But you said to Senator Thompson that you didn't know you were being observed. You knew that the video camera was up there to observe you.

Mr. HARRIS. At what point didn't I know we were being observed?

Senator SPECTER. Well, he said, didn't it occur to you that you were being observed? Senator Thompson asked you that question and you said, no.

Mr. HARRIS. It must have been at a different point. I must have been confused at the time.

Senator SPECTER. Well, when the video camera was up you knew you were being observed.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator SPECTER. The point that I want your reaction to and response to, concerns the context of this man in camouflage with a stocking cap which you said it looked like a beard. Was it not true that you had some reason to believe that there would be Federal marshals or some law enforcement people coming to take Mr. Weaver into custody, so that when you started firing back that you or a reasonable man would have had some reason to know that they were law enforcement officials?

Mr. HARRIS. I never once thought that they would come up there like that. I figured they would just wait him out, you know.

Senator SPECTER. How did you think they were going to take Mr. Weaver into custody and make him stand trial?

Mr. HARRIS. Wait until he came off the mountain.

Senator SPECTER. Senator Craig.

Senator CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Kevin, again, all of us appreciate your being here today and adding to the record we are attempting to build on this issue.

Senator SPECTER. Mr. Harris, do you need a break? This is going to be the last questioning, it will be 15 minutes. But we have kept you here for a long time and I just wanted to make that inquiry.

Mr. HARRIS. No; I'm OK, thank you.

Senator SPECTER. OK. And Mr. Nevin, Mr. Matthews, the same?

Mr. MATTHEWS. We are fine.

Senator SPECTER. He is speaking for you, Mr. Nevin.

Mr. NEVIN. Well, I accept that, Senator, thank you.

Senator CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Kevin, when did you first remember meeting Randy and Vicki Weaver?

Mr. HARRIS. It was when I was 16. They were staying in a trailer down on the meadow, down at Rau's meadow. I guess that is what everybody called it, Rau's meadow down there. They were staying in a trailer while they were building their house.

Senator CRAIG. How did you happen to meet them at their trailer? What was the occasion that caused you to meet them for the first time, do you recall?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. I was staying with a, staying with this old friend of my mom and he was looking for property. He was going to cut firewood and stuff and he wanted me to work with him and help him. So he was looking at a piece of property right below Weaver's place. And he was gone up there and I was just sitting in the truck waiting for him and I met Vicki and the kids then, and then Randy later.

Senator CRAIG. And because you kept coming back to that area, you got to know them better and ultimately became as they described, an adopted son, in essence, or a part of the family?
How did that develop?

Mr. HARRIS. I worked for this guy that I went up there with and then I would help Randy and Vicki when I wasn't doing work for this other—

Senator CRAIG. They asked you to come up and help them?

Mr. HARRIS. I think I offered to help them pack lumber and just give them a hand. And then I started hanging out more and more with them and less with this other guy. And I ended up, this guy took me back to Spokane and when I was leaving Weaver told me, yelled across the field that I could feel free to come up any time. And so the next spring, I did. And I stayed there I think about 8 months at that point.

Senator CRAIG. What year was that, do you recall?

Mr. HARRIS. 1983. Or 1983 or 1984, something like that.

Senator CRAIG. And then, over the course of time, you became good friends of the family and spent a good deal of time with them. And by your testimony this morning, you came the weekend prior and stayed the full week before the Friday incident. I assume that during that stretch of time with the Weavers, in getting to know them, you got to know some of their friends. Did you know Allen Jeppeson?
Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.
Senator CRAIG. Were you ever in the presence of Randy and Allen when they talked about Randy's difficulties?

Mr. HARRIS. I might have been. I usually didn't pay much attention to Weaver when he was talking.

Senator CRAIG. What do you mean you didn't pay much attention to Weaver when he was talking? Apparently you grew to have high regards or warm feelings for the family and he was the father figure or the father of the family. If you were his, by the family's friends, adopted son, in essence, you didn't pay any attention to him?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I—no. I mean I paid attention to him but I didn't—

Senator CRAIG. Well, did you ever hear Allen and Randy talk about the situation that Randt was in and the possibility of surrendering and conditions or terms or ideas about surrendering that Allen might present to the marshals?

Mr. HARRIS. One time Allen came up and said that he told the marshals that he would, that he was going to, he offered to handcuff himself to Weaver or something in some bizarre thing. I can't remember what it was exactly. But

Senator CRAIG. So you do recall him saying that?

Mr. HARRIS. Something, something to that effect, yes. But it was really weird or something. Like he would stay handcuffed to him for however long or something, I don't know. I think we just laughed it off.

Senator CRAIG. Do you remember Jackie Brown?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. How well do you remember her?

Mr. HARRIS. I know her pretty good.

Senator CRAIG. She was, she came up to the cabin during the week prior to the shooting, is that correct?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall.

Senator CRAIG. She testifies being up there and you were up there at the same time, but you don't remember that?

Mr. HARRIS. Right. I, she might have been.

Senator CRAIG. How Then did she come up?

Mr. HARRKIS. I would say occasionally.

Senator CRAIG. Do you remember any conversations that Jackie and Vicki had or the Weaver family and Jackie had about their situation, meaning the arrest and where they found themselves on the mountain?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall any certain conversation.

Senator CRAIG. Do you remember the Raus?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. Were you aware of the testimony that Mrs. Rau gave before this committee last week?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator CRAIG. You are not aware of it. Then let me ask you this question, did you and two of the Weaver children ever break into a guest house at the Raus?

Mr. HARRIS. No, we didn't.

Senator CRAIG. Because she testified last week that you had or
had attempted to.

Mr. HARRIS. We didn't attempt to break into anything. I went and siphoned a little bit of gas out of her tractor. And that was it.

Senator CRAIG. Was anybody with you when you siphoned a little as out of their tractor? In other words—

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator CRAIG [continuing]. You stole gas from the Raus?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. OK. Why did you do that?

Mr. HARRIS. I needed gas for my motorcycle for running into town and my chain saw for—

Senator CRAIG. Were any of the kids with you when you did it?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. Who was with you?

Mr. HARRIS. Sam and Sara.

Senator CRAIG. Sammy and Sara were with you?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. Do you ever recall the Weaver children shouting at the Raus or making loud statements about the Raus, out in front of their home or where they could be heard from the Rau property?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.
But I wasn't always around all the time.

Senator CRAIG. Did you or Randy or any member of the Weaver family steal or move a water system that the Raus had?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir

Senator CRAIG. What did you do with that; tell me about that?

Mr. HARRIS. When

Senator CRAIG. And why did you do it?

Mr. HARRIS. There was kind of a dispute going on when Randy moved off the mountain for a 1½ years or a couple of years, I can't—I don't know how long, but when he left he told Wayne Rau that if he-—you know, because Wayne didn't have a water system, so if he wanted to go ahead and hook up, run a pipe up to Weaver’s place and hook into his spring there that he could. But then when he came back and he needed his water he was going to have to find another way to get water.

And, so, Wayne said that was cool and that's what they did. And then when Weaver moved back up there, Wayne got upset about having to unhook the water system he had up at Weaver's place. And Randy told him to go over and just go plug a pipe into—there’s a creek over there on another guy's property—and he said, if you just go do it there won't be any problem, nobody will ever notice and, you know, no big deal. But he said if they gave him permission to get water it might give him a right to oi1 or something.

So just go plug in and no harm, you know. And I guess Wayne went and told this guy, this Farnesworth guy, that Randy had his water plugged into his creek and so it ended up missing. And they figured that Wayne had taken it for his system to go over to Ruby Creek.

Senator CRAIG. But you, in fact, had taken it?

Mr. HARRIS. Say it again?

Senator CRAIG. Did you and Randy Weaver remove the Raus water system?

Mr. HARRIS. No. This is before when they took the Weaver's

Senator CRAIG. Well, let's cut to the chase. You said a moment ago you removed it. Did you?

Mr. HARRIS. I was getting to that point.

Senator CRAIG. OK

Mr. HARRIS. Somebody took Weaver’s pipe and he thought that the Raus did for their water svstem—

Senator CRAIG. I See.

Mr. HARRIS (continuing]. Because it was on Farnesworth's property.

Senator CRAIG. That is what began to build the bad feelings?

Mr. HARRIS~ Yes, sir. And then so, the guy that owned the property said, you know, Wayne, go ahead and take that pipe out of there. And so and it was gone, and so Weaver figured that pipe had been taken down, Rau went up and took it. And so, we went and took it back.

Senator CRAIG. All right. I am beginning to understand the picture then. You thought you were retrieving your own system?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir. Well—

Senator CRAIG. Well, what?

Mr. HARRIS. Maybe a little more pipe than what would have been there, I don't know.

Senator CRAIG. So you did take some of the Raus' property in that instance, also?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. OK. I am confused, as I think the committee is, Kevin. about what appears to be your absence of knowledge that anybody was in or on the mountain or around the mountain, attempting to apprehend or cause to apprehend Randy Weaver.

Now, you, by your own testimony this morning, moved back and forth or came and left on relatively regular intervals and you ~ that time, or any time prior to that, you never saw anyone that appeared to be suspicious or a strange vehicle in the area or something you thought was other than the normal for the neighbors?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, I never saw anything.

Senator CRAIG. Once you and the children discovered the camera and the camera was taken down, there was no discussion in the house about the camera and that you were under surveillance?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, just that there was a camera and now they weren't watching. We didn't think they could—you know, we took their camera so they couldn't watch us.

Senator CRAIG. The day that you were shot and that Vicki was killed and that Randy was shot, and you all left or you went out of the cabin, to the rock, Randy to the birthing shed, that was, of course, the day following your shooting and Sammy Weaver being killed.
You, by then, understood that something was wrong, I would have to assume that. Did you? Or were you still under the belief that you had just bumped into some character in camouflage wearing a beard who shot a dog?

Mr. HARRIS. After?

Senator CRAIG. Were you, by that time, you had discussed through the evening—or you had had maybe limited conversations because of the trauma that the family was going through—that you were under surveillance or you were under siege? I use the word, siege. Is that reasonable to assume that you felt that?

Mr. HARRIS I felt that they were going to come up. I didn't, I didn't think we were surrounded or anything.

Senator CRAIG. Did you feel you were at risk at that point?

Mr. HARRIS. Risk.

Senator CRAIG. Your life was at risk?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. If you felt your life was at risk, I am always a little frustrated by why you then all left the cabin that morning. You to go get batteries. Randy to look at Sammy. You all left with guns if you felt you were at risk. Isn't the action of having a gun in the hand, when you feel you were at risk antagonistic to begin with?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't know that there was anybody up there watching. I mean I didn't know that they had snipers up there watching us. I thought they would come up, you know, do something, get a bullhorn out or something and say, you got to, you know, you got to surrender or whatever and that's what I was waiting for.

Senator CRAIG. You were assuming that because you, not only because of what had occurred the day before, but because you had also heard on the radio that a Federal marshal had been shot, a U.S. marshal?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. During the time from when you left the cabin until you returned to the cabin, did you ever shoulder your rifle and point it into the sky?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator CRAIG. Did Randy ever do that?

Mr. HARRIS. Not that I saw.

Senator CRAIG. Was it Sara that was with you?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator CRAIG. Did she have a rifle?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall if she did or not.

Senator CRAIG. But neither of you ever pointed it into the sky from the standpoint of shouldering it?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator CRAIG. As if you were aiming at something?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir.

Senator CRAIG. When you were retreating back to the cabin, I believe the marshals testified that you stopped somewhere in or near the cabin, turned and looked around and then went on into the cabin. Do you recall doing that?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I didn't look around. I stopped there and when I did I was looking right at, I was looking at Vicki.

Senator CRAIG. But you never whirled around with your gun and looked out anywhere?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir. When I got to the door I had my rifle in my hand, my left hand and I was just holding on to it, the barrel pointed up, holding on to the top of the stock.

Senator CRAIG. Are you right-handed?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. You shoulder to the right?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Senator CRAIG. But you were running and holding it with your left hand?

Mr. HARRIS. No. When I got to the door—I don't remember how I was holding it when I was running, probably in both hands, like this.

Senator CRAIG. I do have one more question, Mr. Chairman.
You, I am sure, are aware, Kevin, about a statement made by James Radler, do you recall that name, who was allegedly in the Ada County Jail with you and Randy Weaver in October and November of 1992?

Mr. HARRIS. I remember hearing about it.

Senator CRAIG. Do you remember him?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, I don't.

Senator CRAIG. You don't ever remember having a conversation with him?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir, I don't.

Senator CRAIG. Have you read accounts of his statement or what he said, that has now become public, as it relates to your knowledge and Randy Weaver's knowledge of the Federal marshals?

Mr. HARRIS. I never read what he said, no, sir.

Senator CRAIG. He basically says that Randy advised you to shoot first and ask questions later. Did Randy Weaver ever tell you to do that?

Mr. HARRIS. No, sir. And I never told anybody that.

Senator CRAIG. OK. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you, Senator Craig.
Senator Feinstein has a couple more questions.

Senator FEINSTEIN. The one thing that really bothers me are your statements that you didn't know anything about the fact that the marshals might come up the mountain to get him or to arrest him. And that there was no discussion in the family while you were there as to what to do if and when that happened.
Did you know a Mr. Hofmeister?

Mr. HARRIS. No, ma'am. Oh, I don't know him but I know who he is.

Senator FEINSTEIN. I believe he represented Mr. Weaver, was an attorney?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And he wrote and sent a letter up the mountain, talked with Mr. Weaver. You are not aware of any of those conversations? They were never discussed in the house?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't remember anything about Hofmeister, no.

Senator FEINSTEIN. To the effect that Mr. Weaver should come off the mountain. If he didn't, it would be a terrible tragedy.

Mr. HARRIS. No, ma'am, I don't remember that.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And that was never discussed, in all the days you were there, there was no discussion? This is the one thing to me that makes your story not credible that there was no discussion among the family that they had a big problem and what would they do about that problem.

For almost a week that was never discussed according to you, is that right?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, they had been up there for almost 2 years before this week. I mean it wasn't—

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes, but now everybody is armed all of the time, every time they left the cabin. They didn't go down, they didn't leave the cabin because they knew Mr. Weaver would probably be arrested if they did.

Mr. HARRIS. I don't believe that that is true. I don't know where you are getting that from.

Senator FEINSTEIN. When, to your knowledge, was the last time Mr. Weaver had been in town?

Mr. HARRIS. January 1990, I think? 1991? Something like that.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So, a long time that family had been up there without going into town. Didn't that strike you as being a little strange?

Mr. HARRIS. No. I—

Senator FEINSTEIN. Not getting provisions themselves, not leaving the mountain?

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I knew why they—I am confused. I am sorry. I—

Senator FEINSTEIN. Well, what is bothering me is that everything we have received indicates that there was discussion. That the family had talked. That there was an agreed upon position by the family with respect to coming off the mountain and/or being arrested. And the decision had been made not to come off the mountain and not to submit to arrest. And the letters that Mrs. Weaver, Vicki Weaver sent indicate that that was the position of the family.

So you're coming into the family at a very precipitous time and you're telling as that there's no discussion, everything was just the way it always had been, everything was just fine. That doesn't make sense to me.

Mr. HARRIS. Well, I had been there, I had been living there for probably 3 or 4 months before this happened. I had built a cabin. It was just like any other time.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes, but here's a family—

Mr. HARRIS. I mean it wasn't—I don't understand why

Senator FEINSTEIN. OK, here's a family. They haven't—no one has been off the hill for almost a year.

Mr. HARRIS. Yes.

Senator FEINSTEIN~ And now you had—I mean didn't that—they used to go down and get provisions and they had the pickup and they'd load the pickup and they'd come back up the hill. Now, all of this stopped.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And there was never any discussion as to why, in your presence?

Mr. HARRIS. Oh, yes, ma'am, I knew why.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And what was the reason?

Mr. HARRIS. I knew all about not going to court and I knew all about that.

Senator FEINSTEIN. So, what did you know about it?

Mr. HARRIS. About why they weren't going to court?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. HARRIS. Or why he wasn't going to go to court?

Senator FEINSTEIN. Yes, that is—

Mr. HARRIS. He told me about the letters he got from the probation officer. He told me that he had been set up by this Magisano guy. I knew about all of that.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Did you ever ask why don't you go down and get it straightened out?

Mr. HARRIS. Yes. He thought he would be railroaded if he did by the way things were coming about.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And you agreed with that and didn't advise him, perhaps, to go down and get it straightened out, to surrender?

Mr. HARRIS. I didn't, no, I didn't say those things, no. They had already made their decision when I got up there.

Senator FEINSTEIN. You knew about the decision then?

Mr. HARRIS. Not to go to court, yes, ma'am.

Senator FEINSTEIN. And so what did you think would happen? Because you were there then.

Mr. HARRIS. Right.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Clearly you were going to be a part of whatever would happen. What did you think it was that would happen?

Mr. HARRIS.I was going to be a part of what happened? I never thought they, I didn't think they were coming up. I figured that sooner or later Weaver would get tired of being up there and he'd turn himself in. I thought they were just playing a waiting game.

And then when they put the, when the camera thing, when they had that, I thought they were trying to find, you know, thinking that Weaver was sneaking off the mountain or something and they could, you know, get a picture or find out when he leaves or if he goes off the mountain or something.

Senator FEINSTEIN. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator SPECTER. Thank you, Senator Feinstein.

Mr. Harris, just one final topic regarding what we have heard in earlier testimony about the window. Do you recollect whether the curtains were pulled back or what the position of the curtains were at the time the bullet hole was made in the window and in the curtain?

Mr. HARRIS. I don't recall what position the curtains were in. I would have to assume that they were open bit I really don't know exactly what position they were in.

Senator SPECTER. Do you have a sense for whether someone in the position of Special Agent Horiuchi could have seen through that window at the time that you ran through the door?

Mr. HARRIS. From what I've heard in court and stuff, I believe he could have, but other than that, I don't know.

Senator SPECTER. You never had occasion to to look through that window at any distance with the door open at about the position it was when Special Agent. Horiuchi fired the shot?

Mr. HARRIS. No, no, sir.

Senator SPECTER. OK, thank you very much, Mr. Harris. [The prepared statement of Mr. Harris follows:]

PREPARED STATEMENT OF KEVIN HARRIS

My name is Kevin Harris. I'm 28 years old. I live in a small town in Washington State where I work as a welder. I have a five year-old son named Jade. I completed the 9th grade in school.

I'm not a public speaker or a trained witness. I am very nervous. My lawyers have told me that there is great risk for me in coming here because people may misunderstand me, or because I might misspeak in some way.

But someone needs to tell you the truth about what happened at the Y and at Ruby Ridge, and I'm going to do that.

I didn’t 't come here—and I never was at Ruby Ridge—because of religion or politics. I know that that a lot of people were offended by Randy's and Vicky's beliefs. But I visited the Weavers simply because they were like a family to me. They loved me and I love them. They always welcomed me, accepted me, and made me feel that I belonged. They were warm and hospital. There was always a place to sleep, and food on the table, even when they didn’t have much themselves.

I met the Weavers when I was 16. I guess I was a troubled kid. My dad died when I was 2, and I was raised by a series of stepfathers. The Weavers permitted me to be part of their family —something which was missing from my life—and I welcomed it. I knew them, and sometimes lived with them, off and on for the next 9 years, until August 1992. I rarely lived with them on a full-time basis. There was one period of about 8 months, beginning in the spring of 1984 right after they had finished their cabin when I was there continuously. But mostly I came and went. I remember one period of about a year-and-a-half when I didn't see them at all.

I remember going to the cabin in late August or early September of 1991. Vicky was pregnant with Elieheba, and her mom and dad came to visit—they wanted her to come down off the mountain to be near a hospital, but she refused. They made me to stay with the family until the baby was born, in case there were problems. I stayed until the day after Elisheba was born, then I left for the winter.

Sometimes I carried guns when I was at the cabin. I heard later that the Marshals watched us with their spy cameras, and figured out that I had a gun 66% of the time. The Weavers lived off the land. There was a garden, and we hunted whenever game was available. When we killed a deer, Vicki would can the venison. I also felt better having a gun in the woods, for protection from animals, like mountain lions, bears, and moose, which are fairly common up there. Many people in Boundary county carry guns as a matter of course. It's not uncommon there to see men— even women—carrying guns in the grocery store.

We had no idea that the deputy marshals would be in the woods on that Friday. In fact, I really didn't believe that the Marshals would come up and try to arrest Randy—I figured that they would just wait him out. I mean, that's what would've made sense. When I learned at the trial that they had come to the cabin on a number of occasions I was very surprised. Whenever I was at the cabin I freely went to town, picked up mail, and went to the grocery store, and no law enforcement officer ever stopped me, or even questioned me.

The only time I was ever contacted by law enforcement officers was the previous August when a man who identified himself as a marshal called my foster mom in Spokane looking for me. I returned the call. The man told me, "you're probably not going to be able to help me, but I want to ask you something. What kinds of guns does Weaver have, and would he booby-trap his property?" I said, "you're right, I can't help you." He said okay, and hung up.

I spent a good part of the spring and summer of 1992 at the Weaver cabin. I had been promised a job running equipment on a hay farm over at Ephrata, Washington. The job was supposed to have begun that Monday the 17th, but it was delayed a week—I remember exactly why, the hay was wet or some equipment broke down. If not for that, I wouldn’t have even have there on the 21st.

Anyway, it was typical week. I remember that I took the kids (except Elisheba) down to Ruby Creek on Thursday, and we spent the day fishing and swimming. We caught a nice mess of small trout and took them back and fried them up for dinner. Incidentally, we didn’t take any guns with us on that trip.

August 21, 1992 was a Friday, and Friday was the day which the Weavers kept as the Sabbath. We did no work on that day—just relaxed, read, and visited. Late in the morning we heard the dogs bark and we went outside. Striker the big yellow lab, frequently barked at squirrels or noises or anything, but this wasn’t that kind of a bark—it was more insistent, as if someone or something were around.

When we got outside to the rocks Striker had gone on down the hill near the lower garden and he was barking up into the woods, toward an opening where we'd taken some trees for firewood.

Sam and Randy went down the driveway, and I went down a small path through the rocks. They got to the garden area ahead of me.
By the time I got down there Striker had come out of the woods and was at the road with Randy and Sam. He wasn’t barking anymore but he was still interested in something in the woods. Striker started trotting down the road toward the tree line, then looking back at us as if he wanted us to follow. It's open in this area, and just before the dense trees there's an old skid trail up to the right where they used to drag out logs, and Striker stopped there. Up the hill to your right after a few yards the slope flattens out, and a game trail ax through.

The dog headed up toward this game trail, I was thinking that an animal might be there since lots of deer corn down to raid our garden. We were about out of venison, and we would've been glad to shoot a deer.

Randy and Sam and I all went up to the game trail. Striker seemed to be sniffing something, and I told Randy I was going to follow the game trail—Sam said, "me too," Randy said he would go back and head down the other road.
Sam and I started down the game trail—the dog, Sam, and then me. The dog was walking along ahead of us and wagging his tail, not running. He was no longer barking. He'd go ahead, then wait for us to catch up—he never got far
enough ahead that we had to call him back. After awhile I figured that whatever animal had been in there was probably gone.

We came out of the woods above the fern field. Immediately looked up the road thinking I might — the hind end of a deer running away. We didn't see anything, so we turned and walked down to the fern field.

The officers testified that they came out in or below the fern field, so I’m sure that Striker wasn't directly tracking them at that point.

We went through the fern field, and down the road to where it connects up with the road up to the cabin—what everybody now calls "the Y.” It's an old logging road, but it's really more of a trail—the trees grow over the top, and it’s dark under them, almost like a tunnel.

The trail is fairly narrow and we walked single file. We were just walking along, heading back to the cabin. I was carrying my 30.06 rifle in my right hand, hanging down at my side. Sam was about 10 or 15 feet ahead of me.
As we got to the Y, I saw Striker run off ahead. Suddenly I saw that he was near a person. The person had camouflage clothing on, and seemed to have a beard. He wasn't looking at us—he was looking up in the direction of the road to the cabin, so I saw his profile. He had what looked like a pistol in his right hand.

At my trial I learned that the "beard" I saw was really a camouflage stocking over the marshal's face, and that the "pistol" was the silenced submachine gun.

Then the dog seemed to lunge for the man's hands, the way that Striker did when you play with him. I thought about telling the man, don't worry, the dog won't hurt you, that's how he plays, but I never got the chance.

I was still walking forward, and the dog was jumping around the man. The dog then moved away from the man, in a circle, and ends up facing uphill.

Suddenly the dog was shot. My impression was that the man near him was the one who shot him, but I can't be sure of that. I watched as the camouflaged man ran into the brush.

Sam stop above the dog. As l came up next to him, he started to raise his weapon, said, "you shot my dog, you son-of-a-bitch," As soon as he started to raise his weapon up, I turned to my right and headed for cover.

As I did, I was smoke puffs and brass shell casings flying in the air down in the woods below the trail. I assumed Sam was shooting, and that someone was shooting back at him—but I didn't actually see Sam shoot.

In fact once I turned away from Sam as he raised his gun, I never saw him alive again. I have since learned that his shell casings were found farther up the road, so he probably wasn't shooting at that time.

I took 2, maybe 3 steps crouched down, found some cover beside the woods. There were still shots fired, and so I fired once into the brush. I believed that whoever was in the woods was shooting at both Sam and me. I have since learned that there were at least 6 bullet grazes and metal fragments found in the area right behind me, so I’m sure that I was right.

I continued to move further into the woods and came up next to a stump.
Up behind me I heard Sam saying something that made me think he'd been hit. It was something ilk. "Oh shit” I'm not sure where he was, but I could tell he was well back behind me. I could also hear Randy yelling that we should come home, and I heard Sam say, "I’m coming Dad." I also heard Sam say, c’mon Kevin, Kevin c'mon."

I heard a dull hissing sound like "thhhpp," and right away I heard Sam yelp— it was the kind of sound so you'd make if you were slugged in your chest with a fist. I didn't her anything from Sam after that.

I heard moaning from the woods, and someone saying "I’m hit, I'm hit." There was someone standing up, leaning over something, probably a person. The person standing up said, I know, I know. Then this person jumped onto the road and said "US Marshals!, US Marshals!" This was the first time I'd heard anyone identify themselves.

Then another man jumped up on the road and looked up in my direction. I tired my gun about ten feet to his left. He jumped hack into the brush, and I never saw

Obviously, I could've shot and killed either or both of these men.

Then nothing happened for 5 or 10 minutes. I waited, frozen. I didn't hear any shooting or anything that I can recall. Then I heard a vehicle moving down below— it sounded like a rig driving tap to the Y. I gathered myself, and dove back farther into the woods. A branch caught my hat and knocked it off. I ran deeper into the woods, and then turned uphill toward the cabin.

I ran through the woods alongside the road a ways, and then I saw Sam laying out on the road. I came out on the road above Sam. I put my rifle down on the ground and lifted up my hands, looked down toward the Y, and said, "I just want to check on Sam. I walked down to where his body was, in plain view of the men at the Y.

Sam was laying face down in the road. He had on blue jeans, a white t-shit, a flannel shirt, and a sheepskin vest, with the fuzzy side in. I rolled him over, and there was blood all over his front. His eyes were rolled back in his head, half closed. His lips were turning blue. He wasn't breathing. I felt for a pulse, and there wasn't one. I left him laying on his back.

I learned later that Sam's right arm was shot up pretty bad, probably from when he was shot the first time, but I didn't see the arm wound then. I learned later that the killing shot, the second shot, went right through him, from the back, and pierced his heart.

Then I picked up my rifle and headed up the hill figuring that eyes were every-where in the woods watching me. As I got up closer to the cabin I heard someone say, there’s Kevin!" I tried to think of how to tell Vickie and Randy that Sam was dead, and finally I just said it. I sat down and started to cry.

They couldn't believe it. They said are you sure? I said I was sure that had stopped and looked at his body. Randy went kind of berserk. He grabbed his gun and fired it up into the air repeatedly. He screamed and yelled and cursed. Vickie screamed and cried. Then the girls came out, and Vickie told them what had happened.

After awhile Vickie and Randy decided that they had to go get Sam's body. I told them where he was, and I tried to talk them out of going down there—I was afraid they'd get shot too. But they insisted on going. I stayed with the girls.

I knew when they found Sam's body because I could hear Vickie wailing and screaming, and Randy too.

A while later I heard Vickie call to me from down by the garden. She said, "Kevin, come down here, we need some help." They had gotten Sam's body to the trees, and then Randy and I got him as far as the pumphouse. Then I picked him up, put him over my shoulder, and carried him to the small cabin we called the birthing shed. I laid him on the bed where Vickie gave birth to Elisheba, and left him there with his mother and father.

I understand they took his clothes off; cleaned him up, and wrapped him in a sheet, hut I wasn't there for that. After awhile Vickie came out of the shed and came over to me, and said, "I've never once wished that that was you and not him." Then she gave me a hug.

For a long time after Sam was put in the birthing shed, I sat myself on a rock looking out to the east. Later I went back to the house. The girls cried all night—I assume they didn't sleep. I know I didn’t.

The next morning no one talked much—we were in a daze. I remember Vickie cooking something for Elisheba, but I don't recall anyone else eating.

Early in the morning we heard the other dogs whimpering, and Randy and Sara went out to feed them. We listened to the radio and heard a report that I had shot and killed a deputy US Marshal.

We heard sirens in the valley. We figured they would be coming up at some point with bullhorns to demand that we come out. Late in the afternoon, we heard the dog which was tied on the rock outcroppinq whimpering like it might be wrapped up in its chain. Sara wanted to check on him, and Randy wanted to look at Sam. I needed batteries for my flashlight, and I knew there were some in a stash of Sam's personal things that he kept in a box out on the rock—so I went with them.

Sara checked on the dog, and then followed her Dad over to the shed. Suddenly there was a shot.

Weaver hollered "I'm hit, I'm hit!" Sara started pushing him around the edge of the shed. I went straight back down the driveway. Randy was screaming "I'm hit, Ma, I'm hit!' Vickie came out of the door, halfway along the rock path, called at us to come in. She went back to the door, opened it, then stood in it, holding it open.

Randy and Sara were ahead of me. I was running until I caught up them then I slowed down to their pace. I had my rifle in my left hand. As I started through the door I heard a loud boom. I was looking at Vickie at her face. As I heard the shot it was as if there was something moving under her skin, then her face was deformed, almost seemed to explode. When I couldn’t feel my left hand I realized I’d been hit.

Rachel was screaming really badly—I think she's the only one who saw what happened besides me. Randy picked the baby up, and she was all sprayed with blood and tissue. Randy handed her to Rachel, then turned to Vickie, lifted her head up, and said "Oh, Ma…”

Vickie convulsed several times, and then was still. Randy pulled her body into the kitchen. There was a big pool of blood flowing out of her onto the floor—at first I thought it was my blood, and for sure I was going to die.

Sara and Randy helped me take my leather coat off. My chest felt all mushy, and there was blood caked everywhere inside my coat and on my shirt.

They’d killed Sam and Vickie, and almost killed Randy and I, and we were afraid that if we came outside they'd finish us all off. So we stayed inside.

You've heard from others about the siege. I lay in a chair for 9 days, in and out of consciousness, my wounds beginning to rot and stink. I only got up twice the whole time, both times to go to the bathroom. Both times I fainted. There were bright search lights at night, and always the voice of the negotiators, calling out to talk to Vickie, as if she were still alive.

I kept hearing on the radio that I was wanted for murder. By then Bo Gritz and Jack McLamb had come up to help out, and we were talking to them. They brought me a paper where the FBI promised that if I went out they'd leave Weaver and the girls alone. I decided to and went out with Jack McLamb.

At the hospital two FBI agents questioned me while the doctors were trying to treat me and nurses working on me. I explained as best I could while the doctors were trying to treat me what had happened at the Y.

I was in the hospital for about 2 ½ weeks.

After I got out of the hospital I was taken to Boise and placed in jail. I was charged in federal district Court with the First Degree Murder of William Degan. The prosecutors demanded the death penalty. I was amazed by what they said I was guilty of—they threw the book at me. Conspiring with the Weaver family to cause an armed confrontation with the Government; assault with a deadly weapon on Roderick, Cooper and Degan; Assault with a Deadly Weapon on a helicopter, Harboring a fugitive (Randy); Aiding and Abetting the Possession of Firearms by Randy; and Using a Firearm to commit these crimes.

The trial lasted about two months, and the government called 56 witnesses. After that, we rested our case without calling a single witness. On July 8, 1993, after more than 10 months in custody, the jury found me not guilty of all charges.

Since that day at the Y, I have learned that Mr. Roderick and Mr. Cooper
claimed that we ambushed the marshals; and Mr. Cooper claims that I just wheeled and shot Marshal Degan for no more reason than that he called out to me.

I want to say this as clearly as I possibly can, so that there is absolutely no mistake about it in anyone's mind: what Mr. Roderick and Mr. Cooper say is false.

I would not have been anywhere near those woods if I had known that all those men with assault rifles and a silenced submachine gun, and who knows what other weapons, were out there. We were just walking along the trail to the Y, making a target of ourselves.

If I had wanted to shoot someone I had the perfect opportunity when I saw the man with the dog—he wasn't even looking at me. But I didn’t shoot him, because I didn't have any intention of shooting anyone.

The first thing that happened at the Y is that someone shot Striker. I saw that, and I know It with complete certainty. Everything else that happened followed from that.

Marshal Thomas Norris, who was on the 6-man team that day, reported in his statement to the FBI, and testified under oath at my trial, that the first three shots find at the Y had "the distinctive sound of a .223? And anyone who has been around guns knows that the sound of a .223 is very different from the big boom of a 30.06

I learned later that when Marshal Hunt got down to Mrs. Rau's house he left her with the impression that the dog was shot first—her statement to the FBI says that he told her, “Roderick finally put the dog down. Right after he put the dog down the marshals realized they were going to be ambushed by the Weavers.”

I also learned later, long after my trial had begun, that when Captain Dave Neal of the Idaho State Police team got to the Y late that night and met with Mr. Roderick, that Mr. Roderick left him with the clear impression that the dog had been shot first.

And after the Justice Department report came out, I learned that Mr. Henry Hudson, the director of the United States Marshals Service, had the same impression. At page 184 of the report, Mr. Danny Coulson is quoted, saying that he met with Director Hudson and two other high officials from the Marshals Service on the evening of the 21st. Mr. Hudson described the incident this way: "One of the DUSMS had been attacked by a dog, and had shot the dog, which started a firefight. During the firefight, one DUSM had been killed..."

Also, Mr. Cooper has denied all along that he shot Sam. After the FBI found Sam's body in the birthing shed Marshal Mike Johnson said at a press conference that I shot Sam in the back. They came here and told you that it was Randy.

But the government's own expert witness Dr. Fackler said at my trial that Cooper shot Sam. And he was right.

According to their story, no one knew that Sam had been killed until the found his body the following week. But we've known all along that this was false because first I, and then Randy and Vickie, walked down to Sam's body in plain view of the Y where the marshals were. I held up my hands and said I was going to look at Sam—Vickie and Randy cried and wailed loudly. We learned only last week that a former Justice Department official, Mr. Jeffrey Howard, knew that Sam was dead less than 24 hours after he was killed. I understand that Mr. Hudson provided a statement to the FBI after the trial in which he said the same thing. How can these men have known about this unless they were told by one of the marshals on the scene?

I never met Mr. Degan, but everyone says that he was a very good man. I’m very very sorry that he's dead.

I don't know what his intentions were, and I'll probably never know. I think it's possible that he was just like I was—in the middle of something that shouldn't have happened, that he didn't start, and that was out of his control.

Sitting in that cabin for 8 or 9 days, I was not only scared of dying—in fact, at times, dying didn't look so bad. But I felt sure that if I did survive, I'd be given a meaningless trial in a kangaroo court, and then sent off to prison for the rest of my life, or even executed.
After all I've been through, I'm truly thankful for the court system we have in this country. In many other countries in the world just the word of the deputy marshal would have been all it took to put me away forever, or worse. But the court system worked--it presumed me innocent, appointed lawyers to represent me, and gave me a fair trial with a jury. And the jury acquitted me.
I'd be glad to answer any questions that the subcommittee may have.