June 28, 1926
[Medeiros was examined in jail in the presence of counsel for both sides.]
Q. I am not asking you to give me the names of the men who went with you on the South Braintree job. I am only asking you if you will tell me whether you recognize certain pictures that I show you. I am not asking whether these were the men who went with you on the South Braintree job. I ask you to look at this photograph and tell me if you ever saw that individual?
A. I refuse to say.
Q. What is your reason for refusing to answer that question?
A. Private reasons.
Q.You would not be willing to swear you did not know him?
A. I refuse to say.
Q. Your reason is, is it not, that you do not care to say anything here which might in any way implicate anybody else?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Isn't it the real truth of this case that these men did not completely double-cross you but that they did not give you as much money as you thought you ought to have? Isn't that the honest truth?
A. I refuse to say as to that.
Q. Is your reason for refusing to say that you are afraid it will incriminate somebody else?
A. I refuse to say.
Q. You have made a clean breast of it so far as yourself. Nothing you can say about this matter will make it any worse. With that in mind and realizing the great importance of the actual truth, I put it to you isn't that the honest truth of this case?
A. Well, I refuse to say. I wouldn't care for you to trace this money where it came from.
Q. You mean you have a fear that if you should give a truthful answer to that question I might trace the money back into the hands of these Italians?
A. Yes; it is a reason.
Q. You said you went there but they didn't come. That is not true. They did come, didn't they?
A. I refuse to say.
Q. Did you put that statement in,-'I went there but they didn't come,' in order to put me off the track in identifying these people?
A. I refuse to say.
Q. Did you put that statement there for the same reason that you told me one lived on South Main Street and the other lived on North Main Street?
A. Practically the same reason.
Q. Is it a fact that while you are willing to tell the truth about this case so far as you personally are concerned, regardless of how much it implicates you personally, you are not willing to mention any fact which might lead to the discovery of who your associates were? Is that your attitude?
A. That is.
Q. If in answering these questions, you think you see any question which might give the government or myself a chance to identify the other men, you are going to refuse to answer that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. It has a very great bearing because you will bear in mind that somebody has to claim that this testimony is true and somebody has to claim that it is false. I am trying to test the reliability of your statements and you are not doing much to help me.
A. I can't help that.
Q. You can't do anybody any harm if you answer that question. You ought not to take advantage of the fact that we cannot compel you to answer, when a case of this importance is on trial.
MR. RANNEY: I object to the statement of counsel.
A. I refuse to answer.
Q. Outside of all question of murder, thievery and everything else, don't you know that Joe Morell was in 1920 the leader of the Morell gang? I think you ought to be willing to go that far in answering?
A. I don't care to bring the brothers in this at all.
Q. Why not?
A. Just because I don't care.
Q. Why does that question bring the Morells into any crime?
MR. RANNEY: I wish to state my objection to this colloquy between the witness and counsel.
Q. Why should a question like that bring the Morells into the South Braintree crime,-whether Joe was not the leader of it? Why should that bring them into any crime?
MR. RANNEY. Objected to.
Q. Why should that bring the Morells into any crime?
A. You being a lawyer and I being a fellow that have not got any education, I can't hardly answer your question.
Q. I cannot deny your statement that I am a lawyer, and I do not know whether you have an education or not. I think that is a simple question. It does not require any deep knowledge to answer it and I do not see why it should bring the Morells into this crime or any other crime, for you to tell me, if you know, whether Joe was the leader of that gang or not. It seems to me if you are going to refuse to answer a question, you ought to be willing to say why.
A. I don't think I can answer this here question.
Q. You have told Mr. Ranney that Mike was the leader of the gang. Did You mean that?
A. We wasn't talking about this here picture.
Q. We will turn that picture right down on the table. You told Mr. Ranney that Mike was the leader of that gang. Was that true?
A. Yes; that was true.
Q. Was Mike as old as that picture?
A. I don't care to bring the picture into this.
Q. Was Mike as old as Joe Morell?
A. Not quite as old.
Q. You do know Joe Morell?
A. I don't care to answer this question.
Q. Did you tell Mr. Ranney that Mike was the leader of that gang, for the purpose of throwing Mr. Ranney off the track so that he would not find out who the true leader was?
A. I don't care to answer these here questions.
Q. Why did you tell Mr. Ranney that Mike was the leader of the gang if Joe was older than Mike?
A. I refuse to answer.
Q. Have out been trying in any of your answers to Mr. Ranney to shield the Morell gang?
A. I refuse to answer.
Q. Have you been trying to shield any crowd?
A. Yes.
Q. You have?
A. Yes.
Q. What answers have you given to Mr. Ranney for the purpose of shielding some crowd?
A. I refuse to answer.
Q. Do you think that you have done all that you ought to do in a case like this where you say that you are guilty and Sacco and Vanzetti are perfectly innocent, when you refuse to answer questions as you have this afternoon?
MR. RANNEY. I object to that question.
MR. THOMPSON. I press it.
Q. Do you think that you have done all ou ought to do when you refuse to answer so many questions as you have this afternoon?
A. I refuse to answer this here question....
Q. Tell us what happened while you stopped in South Braintree and when you were in the back seat?
A. This car stopped a little ways up and two fellows got out. A few blocks down-not a few blocks, about 100 feet down, they waited there.
Q. At that time were you seated in the car?
A. I was in the back seat.
Q. Then what happened?
A. After a while I was sitting in the seat and I heard some shooting and these fellows ran to the car.
Q. Did they have anything in their hands?
A. They had a black bag.
Q. Was that black bag something that had been carried down from Providence, or what was it?
A. I believe it was a money bag.
Q. Was it one bag?
A. One bag.
Q. Was it something they carried with them or something they robbed?
A. Something they stole.
Q. Did you see any boxes of money there?
A. I don't recall; I was half scared to death; I didn't hardly know anything about it.
Q. Could you see what was going on outside?
A. I suppose I could see but I couldn't keep it in mind, the condition I was in.
Q. You were very much excited?
A. Yes.
Q. Nervous?
A. Yes.
Q. You were only a little over 18 years old at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. When you started on this South Braintree job did you know there was likely to be murder committed?
A. I did not.
Q. What did they tell you was their intention about that?
A. They said they just had to show the gun and the man would give them the bag right away.
Q. What did they say they wanted you to do?
A. I suppose to hold the crowd back.
Q. Were the curtains down on this Buick car that came up with these men in it at the time this murder was committed?
A. The curtains were down.
Q. Did that impede your view of what was going on?
A. I was in such condition that I couldn't hardly recall anything about this.
Q. After the job was done and when the car was speeding off did you realize that murder had been committed?
A. Well, right away.
Q. How did you learn that?
A. I was told; they told me they had shot a man.
Q. Was that the man who was not an Italian who said that or one of the Italians?
A. The fellow driving the car.
Q. Were you sitting beside him at that time?
A. No.
Q. Did they tell you how much money they thought they had got?
A. No; they didn't say.
Q. What did they say to you about your share of the plunder?
A. In Providence they said there ought to be something close to $4,000 or $5,000 apiece....
Q. Do you recall that just before you got to the Boston road something happened and that there was some delay?
A. There was a little delay at a fork in the road.
Q. Just explain what happened then, without any suggestion from me at all.
A. There was a delay at the fork in the road, and one of the fellows got out and found out from somebody in the house there.
Q. What did he want to find out?
A. Just which road to take.
Q. To get where?
A. To go down Providence way.
Q. Did you hear the conversation?
A. I didn't.
Q. Was it a woman?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did somebody come out of the house or open a window?
A. I believe a woman was in the yard; I couldn't see the woman.
Q. It was some woman?
A. I think it was a woman.
Q. Did the car come to a dead stop when this conversation was going on?
A. It came to a standstill for a few minutes.
Q. I suppose by minutes you might mean seconds?
A. Yes, seconds.
Q. Give us as nearly as you can what that conversation was?
A. There was no conversation. I don't think we were there long enough to have a conversation. He just asked which road went to Providence....
[ Medeiros was unable to describe the scene of the crime or the surrounding country, but when asked if the car had gone down grade after the shooting, he answered--correctly--that it had gone up grade. The cross-examination of Medeiros on this point follows:]
Q. You cannot draw us a sketch of South Braintree?
A. I can't.
Q. You have no memory of how it looks there?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Why haven't you any memory of how it looks?
A. I wasn't in much of a condition to have a memory at the time.
Q. You were drunk, were you?
A. Well, not real drunk; we had a few drinks.
Q. You were 18 years old?
A. Yes.
Q. And your eyesight was so that you could see objects of various kinds?
A. Well, I could see, yes.
Q. What does South Braintree look like? What kind of a place is it?
A. To tell you the truth I don't know what it looks like.
Q. How far away was the automobile that I understood you sat in when the actual shooting took place? How far were you in that automobile from the shooting?
A. I couldn't say how far it is. I would say probably a hundred feet.
Q. In other words, somewhere in the vicinity of 33 yards or 35 yards?
A. I wouldn't say in yards.
Q. Can, you by looking out of this window fix on any object in the jail yard which would give you thd approximate distance between the actual shooting and the place where your car was standing?
Mr. THOMPSON: I object to that on the ground that there is no evidence of whether the car was standing or moving.
A. I tell you I didn't see the shooting.
Q. Was your car standing still at the time the shooting took place?
A. I believe it was standing still, yes.
Q. How many men were in it at that time?
A. There was five men.
Q. Five men in the car at the time the shooting took place?
A. Five men in the car.
Q. Who was doing the shooting?
A. Two men doing the shooting.
Q. Where were they in the car?
A. They were out of the car.
Q. That made seven in the car at the immediate scene of the crime?
A. There were five of us.
Q. How many men were in the car when the two men you say did the shooting, were outside?
A. There was two men in the car.
Q. Were you in the front seat or the back seat?
A. Back seat.
Q. Where was the other man sitting who was in the car at the time?
A. At the wheel.
Q. Did the man who did the shooting run up to you after the shooting took place and jump into the car?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Did you go away in a direction away from the shooting?
A. Away from the shooting?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes; we went away from the shooting.
Q. Is it fair to say that the men who did the shooting ran to your car and jumped in?
A. While the car was going.
Q. And you immediately went away from the shooting?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not go back to the place where the shooting had taken place?
A. No, sir.
Q. Was the street at that particular point a level street or was it graded? What was its slope or was there any slope?
A. I think there was a little slope.
Q. Did you go down grade after the shooting occurred?
A. Up grade.
Q. Did you look out of the car at all?
A. I don't recall that I did.
Q. Was there a railway anywhere near there?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Did you see any factories anywhere around there?
A. I couldn't say that I seen any factories.
Q. Did you see any stores at the immediate scene of the shooting, where it took place?
A. . I don't believe it was stores, but I can't say for sure.
Q. Did you see any excavation work being done, any digging, any place where there was any construction?
A. I don't recall that I did.
Q. Was the place where you stopped your car in a thickly populated place or was it out in the country?
A. There were not many houses there. I don't know how thickly populated it was. It was not country.
Q. Were there any swamps right near there?
A. I couldn't say.
Q.Was there any lake right near there?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Did you go across a railroad crossing?
A. I couldn't say.
Q. Did you see any water tank there?
A. I couldn't say I did.
Q. Was there any shooting after the men who had done the shooting got back into your car?
A. I don't think so.