(Read into evidence at the trial on December 5 and 6, 1984)
DEPOSITION TESTIMONY OF LARRY FLYNT
DIRECT EXAMINATION:
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Mr. Flynt, what is your full name?
A: Christopher Columbus Cornwallis I.P.Q. Harvey H. Apache Pugh. They call me Larry Flynt. And all those historical figures.
Q: Are you known as Larry Flynt?
A: No. Jesus H. Flynt, Esquire.
Q: Have you ever called yourself Larry Flynt?
A: Used to, but it was spelled with an "I" then. F-L-I-N-T. Now it's F-L-Y-N-T. I have two (2) birth certificates.
Q: Were you born in Kentucky?
A: No.
Q: Have you ever served in the United States Navy?
A: Hmm -- I'm not sure.
Q: Have you ever lived in Dayton, Ohio?
A: No, I was hatched in Dayton, Ohio.
* * *
Q: You do not? Do you wish to pretend that you don't understand the question?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Do you know where you are?
A: (Shakes head.)
Q: Do you know what day today is, Mr. Flynt?
A: (Shakes head.)
Q: Do you know who the man is to whom you pointed earlier and whom you said knocked out your tooth last night?
A: (Shakes head.)
Q: Are you determined, Mr. Flynt, to make a mockery out of this deposition?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Do you wish to pretend that you don't understand my questions?
A: (Nods head, then shakes head.)
* * *
MR. ISAACMAN: If the witness needs a break, or he needs to consult a doctor, he's going to be allowed to do it.
MR. GRUTMAN: No. Listen, Mr. Isaacman, neither you nor I are doctors, but it is apparent to me, as I think it is to everybody in this room, that this witness is making a charade out of this deposition. And that with you and with Mr. Kahn, or with himself, he will resort to anything that he possibly can to pretend that he doesn't understand questions and to avoid meeting the requirements that Judge Turk imposed, that he answer questions.
Now, I'm not going to allow that to happen. I'm going to endeavor to ask this man questions. And fortunately, a videotape is being made, and people will be able to observe whether this man is what he pretends to be, or whether in reality he is shamming so as not to answer questions.
* * *
MR. ISAACMAN: -- and if he requests medical attention, like any witness, he ought to be allowed to have it, and I say he should have it.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Do you know who that man is talking?
A: He's an idiot.
Q: Do you know who it is?
A: He's an idiot.
Q: Do you know his name?
A: I've tried to fire him ever since he's been here.
Q: Do you know his name?
A: No, I don't know his name.
Q: You called him Alan a moment ago.
A: Yeah, Alan Graham. He's the guy with the sex tapes. I got a bedsore needs changed, and I need some medication, you know. Now if you want to get the medication for me, change my bedsore, and put me in the soft cuffs here so I can do a depression, I'll proceed.
But if you're going to treat me like a fool, I'm going to act like one.
Q: No, Mr. Flynt, we're going --
A: (Interposing) Mr. Grutman, you and I don't have a problem. Our problem is setting right over there, two of them. And you know the difference between them? One's a wet snitch, and one's a dry one.
Q: Who are you referring to?
A: Mr. Kahn and Mr. Isaacman.
Q: I thought you told me you didn't know his name.
A: I don't know him.
Q: You called him Alan Graham.
A: I don't know him. They're all the same.
Q: You know who I am, don't you?
A: Yep. You're an asshole.
Q: So you've said in your magazine. Not once, but several times, right?
A: Yeah.
* * *
MR. GRUTMAN: You and your client have obviously determined to turn this into a circus or some kind of a freak show.
* * *
Q: Mr. Flynt, are you aware that you are a defendant --
MR. ISAACMAN: (Interposing) No, no, no, no, no.
Q: -- in a lawsuit entitled Reverend Jerry Falwell --
MR. ISAACMAN: (Interposing) I instruct you not to answer any questions of this man until I have the right on your behalf to examine Mr. Kaiser.
Q: -- against Larry Flynt and Hustler, Incorporated?
A: I refuse to answer that question until we have addressed the issue of medical care. Now, I may be crazy, but I ain't stupid, Mr. Grutman.
* * *
Q: And everything that was published in Hustler magazine in those years was material that, at least, had to be submitted to you for final approval, isn't that true?
A: Everything that has ever went in Hustler should have had my approval, and anything that went in that did not have my approval, the son of a bitch is either dead, got the shit kicked out of him, or he's out of a job.
Q: Would that be true up to the present time, Mr. Flynt?
A: Ah, we're going to deal with the present time a little later. I haven't seen any of my magazines since I've been down here, with the exception of the January issue, and one other one that they let me see.
It's all part of their behavior modification program back here.
* * *
Q: Well, then, I take it from that answer, Mr. Flynt, that it is your testimony that surely through the November of 1983 issue, everything that went into that magazine had to have, and did have, your final approval?
MR. ISAACMAN: Object to the form of the question.
A: Everything that is ever went in did have, and has got, my final approval.
* * *
Q: For the moment, my interest is not about ionization Mr. Flynt, --
A: (Interposing) It should be.
Q: -- It's about your knowledge or awareness as a publisher of the potential liabilities for defamation. Was that something about which you had interested yourself prior to November of 1983?
A: Yes.
Q: And had you consulted on that matter, without telling me what they told you, but had you ever spoken to lawyers about it?
A: No.
MR. ISAACMAN: I'm going to object to that. That invades an attorney/client privilege.
Q: I didn't ask for the contents, just simply whether you'd had some discussion about it with a lawyer.
A: Yesh, with a lot of lawyers, but the discussion --
MR. ISAACMAN: Well, you're asking for the contents, I object to the question on the basis that it invades the attorney/client privilege.
A: The discussion that I'm talking about didn't take place with any lawyer, it took place with John Fitzgerald Kennedy, former president of the United States.
* * *
Q: Is there some connection between Vicki Morgan and Reverend Falwell?
A: Certainly is.
Q: You have any knowledge or information that there is some connection between Reverend Falwell and Vicki Morgan?
A: I do.
Q: What do you say that connection is, Mr. Flynt?
A: Well, let's just say that they were taking their orders from the same person indirectly. If you want me to expound on that, I will.
* * *
Q: In any event, Mr. Flynt, do you have any information that Reverend Falwell ever committed incest with his mother?
A: Yes.
Q: You do have that information?
A: (Nods head.)
Q: Who provided that information to you?
A: Captain Joe Sivley, Bureau of Prisons.
Q: Pardon?
A: Captain Joe Sivley, Bureau of Prisons.
Q: He told you that Reverend Falwell had incest with his mother?
A: Ah, no. Lieutenant White did, Lieutenant White works in Springfield. Okay?
And Lieutenant White also works for the Bureau of Prisons.
Q: Did you know Lieutenant White before the November, 1983 issue of Hustler was published?
A: No.
Q: Did you know Captain Sivley before the November, 1983 issue of Hustler was published?
A: Yes.
Q: When did you meet Captain Sivley?
A: We talked mostly on the radio.
Q: CB radio?
A: Huh? (What?)
Q: CB radio?
A: The lunchbox.
Q: Now, have you ever seen --
A: (Interposing) You know what a lunchbox is, Mr. Grutman?
* * *
Q: On the very top, it says "Okay". Are those your initials, "LF"?
A: I will not okay it unless it's been through the copy department, idiot. Now, it's my initials, I okayed every single word of it, but I didn't write a word of it.
Q: I didn't ask, for the moment, whether you composed it, I asked only if those were your initials. Are they?
A: Yes.
* * *
Q: Is that because you are indifferent to the consequences of publishing things about people which may not be true, if you accuse them of a crime?
MR. ISAACMAN: That's an argumentative-type question.
A: That's an argumentative -- how in the world can I answer if you don't shut up, Isaacman?
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: From your study, or your interest in the law of libel as it affected publishers, did you know that it was -- what did you know as to whether a publisher had the right to publish a statement which was false about somebody committing a crime?
MR. ISAACMAN: I'm objecting; it's irrelevant. The question is whether it was an intent to be a true statement or was intended to be a parody, that's the question.
A: I don't care, Mr. Grutman. I didn't care, Mr. Grutman.
Q: You didn't care?
A: Didn't care then, and don't care now.
Q: Okay. Do you care, Mr. Flynt, about hurting the feelings of people about whom you write things in your magazine?
A: Yes.
* * *
Q: What efforts did you make to ascertain whether the statements contained in Exhibit 1 were true or not before you caused it to be published?
A: Well, I met with Mary Calderon Waseka, and Masters and Johnson, Morton M. Hunt, Dr. James Prescott, who helped design and build this prison here.
And I know a lot about, you know, behavior modification, and I know a lot about the origins of violence, where they came from, and that our inability to deal with out religious convictions was largely rooted in our inability to deal with our sexual pervasion, whatever it might be, or perversion.
But, as you and I both know, one man's perversion might be very well be another man's marriage.
And to get right to the point, and answer that question, so you could more clearly understand where I'm coming from, everybody knows I had a relationship with Ruth Carter Stapleton, but nobody knows what that relationship was.
And I'll tell you what it was.
Q: Please, Mr. Flynt.
A: I think it's very important.
Q: To answer my question?
A: Yes, to answer --
Q: As to what --
A: (Interposing) You asked -- you asked if I had done any research, you may not have used those words, but you asked if I had looked in -- to obtain any kind of evidence before I --
Q: As to the truth of what you published about Reverend Falwell in this ad?
A: Yes. And I'm telling you that what I did was I did an awfully lot of research, because every college campus that I ever spoke on, there was, you know, Gloria Steinman's (sic) dykes passing out flyers, you know, accusing me of every ill that society embodies, and I was really concerned if Hustler in any way, or magazines like it, had any harmful effect on the consumption, whether it be -- by what sex, or children, or animals, or whatever.
I had my own opinion, and I knew that it wasn't harmful in any way, but I felt that I needed to convince the government so that we might do away with the concept of obscenity.
So, what I did was I researched the sexual behavior, attitudes, and values of people like Mr. Farwell. I called them the Farwellians of the world.
And I had the support of the Federal government in doing this research, because they all work for me. Some of them lost their jobs, like Dr. James Prescott when he wrote the article on child abuse for Hustler, but he didn't care because he found another one.
And when Ruth Carter Stapleton came to me, it was part of my research program, and she says, "Mr. Flynt, you're going to have to say, 'bring Jesus into your life."
And I told her, I says, "Ruth, say 'bring George, or John inside you' and it'll feel just as good."
And I opened up a copy of Hustler and she says, "Oh, my God."
And I says, "What you're doing, the inner healing that you're talking about is nothing more than sexual healing." Marvin Gaye sang about it, and a lot of people sing about it, you know, whether it be George Jones, Boy George, or whatever.
Now, you asked the question, and I'm demanding the time to answer it, and it's got to do with our sexual values. And I am telling you that that is what it's all about.
Boy, you crawled out of one and you been trying to crawl back in one ever since, and eventually you're going to realize that.
And most of the people that work here in the B.O.P. already know that, and they already know that a few people's got to drink out of a commode over there with dome [sic] cigarette butts and shit in it, and it ain't going to be me.
Q: What specific information did you find out about Reverend Falwell committing incest with his mother prior to the publication in November of 1983? Would you please answer that question?
A: Ah, yes, I was -- I'm on restricted mail correspondence here, and when I was in Springfield, I was not on restricted mail --
Q: (Interposing) Please, answer my question. You weren't here before November of '83.
A: Unh-hunh. (Yes.)
Q: I want to know what specific information you had prior to the November, 1983 issue of Hustler magazine that indicated, as a matter of fact, that Reverend Falwell had committed incest with his mother. Now, please, answer that question.
A: Okay. What you want, you know, is a document that's in my room over there. So, let the record reflect that I will testify about what's on the document and provide you with the names when Captain Sivley will permit you to take it with you.
Now, it's over there, and he says I can mail it out, but he's a damn liar, because they won't let it go out.
Q: Do you say you have a document in your room at the place where you are now, which answers the question I have just put to you, namely, the specific information which you found out prior to the November '83 issue, which indicated that Reverend Falwell as a matter of fact had committed incest with his mother. Is that what you're saying, sir?
A: Yes.
Q: It's in your room, now?
A: It is in my personal property.
Q: In your room, here, in this facility?
A: I never know what I'm going to find in my room when I get back there. It is a FCI Butner, and in the Bureau of Prisons. I am not trying to hedge the question, and you'll find a wedding band with it, and a pair of glasses that don't belong to Hinkley.
Q: Is it in your room, now?
WITNESS: Captain Sivley, is it in my room?
CAPTAIN SIVLEY: I don't know whether --
WITNESS: Ah, you going to have to depose him.
MR. GRUTMAN: All right, fine.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Do you remember what specific information you had?
A: Yes.
Q: Well, tell me what specific information you had prior to the publication of November of 1983, that Reverend Falwell had committed incest with his mother.
Q: Ah, I have an affidavit signed by three different people from Lynchburg, Virginia --
Q: Yes.
A: -- Okay, stating, okay, that purely and simply, that they had witnessed this act by Mr. Farwell.
Q: You have that affidavit?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: Where is it?
A: It's in my personal property here at FCI Butner.
Q: In your room?
A: Yes, or if it's not in my room, the Captain's got it. It's outside my room.
* * *
Q: Does anybody have a copy of this affidavit signed by three people whom you say, under oath, gave you an affidavit attesting to the fact that they witnessed --
A: (Interposing) You better believe they did.
Q: -- Reverend Falwell -- who has the copies?
A: Well, several people's got a copy.
Q: Who?
A: Okay, Attorney Joe Walsh in Dayton, Ohio, has a copy.
Q: Yes?
A: Now, Attorney Jerry Paul of North Carolina has a copy. Attorney Bill Kunsler has a copy, and Attorney Paul Ennis of North Carolina has a copy. And I'll send the whole world a copy, if they'll give me any goddamn stamps.
Q: Mr. Flynt, you know that that ad is the subject matter of this lawsuit, do you not?
A: Yes, I do.
Q: And you know that you are being defended by Mr. Isaacman and his firm, do you not?
A: (No answer.)
Q: Do you know that?
A: In this proceeding, yes, but I said in the beginning, let the record reflect I have been denied counsel of my choice, and access to the law library at FCI Butner.
Q: Have you produced a copy of this affidavit that you're referring to, signed by three people attesting to their having observed Reverend Falwell committing incest with his mother? Have you provided that to either Mr. Isaacman or anyone connected with him?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Mr. Bill Willingham, Mr. Captain Sivley, Mr. Massenburg, and P. A. Kaiser over there.
Q: Okay. You have referred to the four functionaries of this institution who are sitting in this room while you are being deposed.
A: Yep.
Q: When did you give it to Captain Sivley?
A: Ah, when Robert Zonner, attorney Robert Zonner, Washington, D.C., ah, made his first trip down here, okay?
Q: Okay. When did you provide it to Mr. Willingham?
A: Ah, I provided it to Mr. Willingham at the time I was getting my root canal done in the dentist's office.
Q: All right. And to Mr. Kaiser, when did you provide it to him?
A: Hmm, Mr. Kaiswer's only seen it; I didn't -- he's not allowed to touch my legal materials.
Q: If you provided it to these people, none of whom were your lawyers, why did you withhold it from Mr. Kahn or Mr. Isaacman, who are here in this facility, and whom you don't have to mail it to? Why did you not provide it to them?
A: Because after Captain Sivley seen what it was, he refused to allow Mr. Kahn and Mr. Isaacman into FCI Butner.
Q: Do you remember the names of the people who signed the affidavit?
A: I certainly do.
Q: What are their names?
A: I am not going to tell you, 'til you get the paper over here.
Q: Mr. Flynt, it's a relevant question, you promised to give me a true deposition --
A: (Interposing) I will not answer 'cause the boys are scared to death, okay?
Q: Oh, it was three boys?
A: Well, I don't know, we could check them and see.
Q: Do you remember the contents of the document?
A: Yes.
Q: When do you say the incest took place?
A: Ah, Farwell was very young.
Q: What's that?
A: Farwell was very young.
Q: Yes. How long ago was that?
A: Hell, I don't know what his age was.
Q: Well, since you've read this affidavit, which attests to having observed the specific incident, tell me what the affidavit says, so far as you recall, as to when this alleged thing occurred.
A: Okay, here's what the affidavit says to the best of my recollection.
Q: When?
A: To the best of my recollection, the affidavit says that Mr. Farwell was at the age of puberty, thereabouts, and that they caught him masturbating in an outhouse, looking at a picture of his mother in a Sears and Roebuck catalog.
Q: His mother's picture was in the Sears and Roebuck catalog?
A: No, he had it hid in the Sears and Roebuck catalog.
Q: I see.
A: You know how sometimes they buy Hustler and put it in the Wall Street Journal? I guess that's what Farwell was doing in the outhouse. And so these three boys, ah, used to tease him all the time about catching him playing with himself.
And they decided to watch him one day to see, you know, what he would do. And so, his mother caught him once, and she taught him a little about the birds and the bees, you know.
Q: Do these witnesses say that his mother had intercourse with him and they observed it?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did they say that it occurred?
A: I believe they said it occurred in Missouri, but I'm not sure. We'll have to check the document.
Q: Does the affidavit indicate how these boys who saw this were able to have observed this incident taking place?
A: Yeah, they were watching.
Q: Where were they watching from?
A: Through the window of the house.
Q: And they could see into the outhouse?
A: No, this happened -- this -- the first time was in the outhouse, okay, with the picture, you see. And he was only masturbating.
The next time, he was a little older, and it was in -- it took place in the house.
Q: So these same boys who saw him masturbating with a picture of his mother in the Sears and Roebuck catalog, are the same people who saw him having intercourse with his mother, right?
A: Two of them are, the other one --
Q: Don't you think that's stretches credulity just a little further than anybody would swallow it?
A: What's credulity?
MR. ISAACMAN: I object, argumentative.
A: What's credulity, sir?
MR. ISAACMAN: Ambiguous.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: At the time that this ad was approved by you, nothing contained in this so-called affidavit was known to you at the time, is that correct?
A: Hmm, yes, it was known to me, I just didn't have the proof.
Q: My question is you didn't have any proof at the time that the ad was published to indicate --
A: (Interposing) I most certainly did, but I didn't have it in writing.
MR. ISAACMAN: I'm going to object to the characterizing it as an ad, it's a parody of an ad. If you refer to it as Exhibit 1, we won't have any problem.
WITNESS: Well, we can make it a real one now that we got the evidence, Isaacman. Just let him roll.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: When did you speak to these boys who made the affidavit?
A: Ah, at my house in Columbus, Ohio on or about, ah, January, 1978.
Q: And can you give me the names of those boys?
A: I can give you the names of one, okay.
Q: What's his name?
A: Charles F. Galbreath, okay. Now, he is going to be -- he -- the reason why I'm giving you his name is because he is a judge, okay.
From the State of Tennessee.
Q: Spell his last name for me.
A: G-A-L-B-R-E-A-T-H, Galbreath. Like John Kenneth Galbreath, okay.
Q: All right.
A: And he left the bench to come over here and find out what was going on. And he brought -- Howard is one of the people's names, okay.
Now the other one's name is Moore, okay?
Q: Unh-hunh. (Yes.)
A: And now the other one's name is Mr. Massenburg, who's sitting right over there.
Q: Oh, he's one of the affiants himself?
A: Huh? (What?)
Q: Mr. Massenburg is one of the people who signed the affidavit?
A: Well, I had him down in the visiting room the last time to witness the third affidavit, and his signature is on it, because they won't mail the one out. They won't mail the real one out, Mr. Grutman. So I had to keep getting the same one notarized over and over again.
So, he can testify as to what's on that document, or he can go over to my room and get it.
Q: Okay. Would you tell me, Mr. Flynt, why, if this information about Reverend Falwell and his mother was known to you since 1978, you waited until 1983, to publish it to the world?
A: Ah, I was waiting to settle a score.
Q: I beg your pardon?
A: I was waiting to settle a score.
Q: To settle the --
A: To settle a score.
Q: Oh, to settle a score?
A: Unh-hunh. (Yes.)
Q: You mean you were trying to get even with Reverend Falwell?
A: Yeah.
Q: Has Reverend Falwell, to your knowledge, Mr. Flynt, ever made any personal remarks about your mother?
A: Hmm, no, but he did about my father, and that's no difference.
Q: Has he ever made any remarks about your personal sexual practices?
A: Yes.
Q: What do you say Reverend Falwell has said about your personal, private life?
A: He says it's abominable.
Q: What you personally do with Althea is abominable, he has said?
A: Hmm, my conduct is abominable, he says.
Q: Okay. Now you said a moment ago that you were waiting to even a -- settle a score with him, is that correct?
A: Unh-hunh. (Yes.)
Q: When you use that phrase, does that mean you were trying to get even with him?
A: Yep.
Q: So I take it from that, or those several answers, that when you published this, this was not intended to be a parody, it was intended to be the publication of the truth, right?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection, it's argumentative, and it speaks for itself.
A: Yes. I didn't even want to put the word "parody" on there.
* * *
A: No.
Q: Who wrote the text?
A: Ah, well, I guess you would have to say that a group of people wrote it. Now, if you want me to give you the group of those people's names, I will.
Q: Is it your testimony, Mr. Flynt, that this text, which is on Exhibit 2, was not written by one person, yes or no?
A: It was written by one person with input. When you publish a magazine, unless you're God, you need some input from other people.
Q: Who was the person who composed the text, Bruce Helford?
A: Ah, no.
Q: Who?
A: Dr. Madalyn Murray O'Hair.
Q: You say Dr. Madalyn Murray O'Hair wrote the words that are in this Exhibit 2, and on Exhibit 1?
A: No, she submitted some documents which we complied them from. And I told Helford to compile the documents and to make the copy from the documents.
Q: So, now you're telling me that Madalyn Murray O'Hair submitted some documents to you?
A: Yes.
Q: Are those documents still in the possession of Hustler?
A: Yes.
Q: I call for their production.
WITNESS: Mr. Kahn, what you need is a copy of the letter that Richard Nixon wrote to Cardinal Cooke asking what he was going to do about the tuition tax credit on parochial schools and you'll find a copy of that letter in the file, and you'll also find a copy of the New York Police Department's report when John Lennon was murdered, and they went to Ronald Reagan to ask for a comment.
And he was in Cardinal Cooke's apartment, teaching Cardinal Cooke how to bite the big one.
You'll need a copy of that police report from the New York --
Q: What do you mean "teaching Cardinal Cooke to bite the big one"?
A: It's called Bravo Eleven and you don't have a high enough security clearance to talk about that.
Q: Well, what do you mean, Mr. Flynt?
A: Well, I -- if the Captain will let me explain it to you, I will.
Q: Nobody's preventing you from explaining it, so tell us, what does "bite the big one" mean?
A: I have to have a radio, or a cord, or something. That's up to the Captain. If he wants to get -- if he gets a line -- if the Captain's got a box up there, if he brings it in here, I'll talk to Reagan on the phone.
Q: Okay. Now, Mr. Flynt --
A: Okay? Now, he's got a radio out there that he lets me use. If he'll bring it in here, I'll let you talk to Ronald Reagan. Now, you understand what I'm saying? And I ain't crazy.
Q: Were you present when this text that you approved was composed?
A: Pardon?
Q: Were you present when this text which you approved on Exhibit 2 was composed?
A: No.
Q: Was it composed by a committee?
A: Yes.
Q: Did they all meet together and write it up?
A: Yes.
Q: And who was on the committee?
A: Ah, Stephanie Ross, Greg Ross, Steve Sesadian.
Q: Anybody else?
A: Ah, yeah, Billy Idol, Yoko Ono.
Q: Yes.
A: And David Lee Roth and Ted Nugent.
Q: How about David Kahn?
A: Ah, no, he didn't have a thing to do with it. He tried to keep it from going in.
Q: You mean he thought that there was something wrong about doing it?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection.
A: And a congressman, Larry McDonald, Congressman Larry McDonald, don't leave him out. And don't leave Jimmy Carter out of there.
And don't leave Bryan Huff out of there, neither. And don't leave Jean Reaves out of there. And don't leave Robin Barr.
Q: Is that your son or your wife?
A: No, that's his mother.
Q: I see. They're all on the committee that composed this text?
A: This is the mother I wasn't married to, this is the one that adopted him after the other mother sent him away.
"Cause see, Joseph Barr, Jr. is a nigger."
Q: He's a what?
A: He's a nigger.
Q: A what?
A: He's a nigger, but he's mine. You see what I'm saying? And I'm his natural father.
* * *
Q: Mr. Flynt, earlier today, you said that this Falwell Campari business was published when you were getting set to even a score?
A: Unh-hunh (Yes.)
* * *
Q: Do you believe that because of your aversion to the Bible and organized religion, that that gives you license to hold up to ridicule and scorn leaders of religious movements?
A: You're goddamn right.
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. It's irrelevant. It's argumentative.
A: Free expression is absolute.
Q: It's absolute? Including the dissemination --
A: Unequivocably.
Q: Fine. Doesn't that include, Mr. Flynt, disseminating things about the private lives of religious leaders?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection, It's irrelevant.
A: You're damn right.
MR. ISAACMAN: It doesn't relate to this proceeding.
A: I will drop a dime on my mommy.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: You'll drop a what?
A: A dime on my mother.
Q: On your mother?
A: What that means is I am a wet snitch.
Q: A what?
A: A wet snitch.
Q: Okay. Have you also said, Mr. Flynt, speaking about your magazine, that "Parody has become so real, we're going to stop doing parody"? Have you ever said that?
A: Yeah.
Q: And the magazine that you spoke of that "we were going to stop doing it" in was Hustler. Right?
A: Yeah.
* * *
Q: Mr. Flynt, do you agree that there is a difference between contending vigorously, in a sort of debate, with people who have different ideas, and arguing about one concept, as against another, in distinction with making personalized attacks on the private lives of people with whom you disagree?
A: Mr. Grutman --
MR. ISAACMAN: Question is ambiguous and --
WITNESS: Shut up, Isaacman, Mr. Grutman
MR. ISAACMAN: I'm making an objection.
WITNESS: I understood his question. It wasn't vague. It wasn't vague.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Please answer it.
A: Look, I'll answer this question the way you ask it.
Q: Right.
A: The truth is an absolute defense. And if it offends you or Jerry Farwell, then the two of you have a mental problem, not me.
Q: Let's see. Going down to Exhibit 1. Question, "Falwell: My first time was in an outhouse outside Lynchburg, Virginia," close quote.
My question is, at the time that you published this, did you have any proof that the first time Jerry Falwell ever had a sexual experience was in an outhouse, outside Lynchburg, Virginia?
A: Yes.
Q: What was the proof that you --
* * *
Q: Now, at the time that this appeared in Hustler magazine and you approved it, what proof did you have, specifically, that the first time Jerry Falwell had a sexual experience was in an outhouse, outside Lynchburg, Virginia?
A: I had an affidavit and a picture.
Q: A picture of what?
A: But, I had a veriable affidavit.
Q: What was the picture of?
A: It's in my property.
Q: What did it depict?
A: It is in my property.
* * *
Q: What did the photograph you referred to show?
A: Okay. Now, I'm telling you that there's several photographs back there, okay, in my property. Okay. And you can see them all.
And believe me, Farwell is one of them. Okay. And Pat Boone is another one. Okay.
Q: What did it show of Falwell?
A: I am not going to discuss what people's sexual preferences are. But, I tell you I have got a photograph of Jerry Farwell masturbating. And I've got a photograph of him fucking some young girl.
Now, if you want them, you're going to have to get them from the Captain.
Q: You say you're not going to discuss the privacy of people's sexual practices, Mr. Flynt? What do you think you were doing in this ad?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. Abusive.
A: It involves children, Mr. Grutman. It involves children.
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection to the abusive manner of Mr. Grutman's asking that question.
A: I will talk about adults, but, remember, when you invade the privacy of someone that is not old enough to speak for themselves, you're violating the rights of somebody who don't have any rights. That's children.
And it's called an individual liberty. And no one has the right of taking the individual liberty of sticking their sexual organ in some child's mouth.
Now, there's a big difference between civil rights and individual liberties. And you should learn the difference.
I mean, an individual liberty is something I'd like to do right now; take a shit right on top of your head.
But, now, civil rights is what these assholes over here are doing to me now. They're violating my civil rights, by making me stand here and ask you to insult my intelligence.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: I understand that as a champion of children, you said what you did. But, do you think that, with respect to adults, you can say anything that you want about their private sexual activities, whether it's real or fancied, or not?
A: Yes.
Q: No matter how horrible it may be to the average, ordinary person?
A: Yes.
Q: And you think you can do that in a magazine, and get away with it, don't you?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. It's irrelevant and argumentative.
A: Yes.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: As a matter of fact, what you just described is something that you and Hustler have been doing for years, haven't you?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. Irrelevant and argumentative.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Haven't you?
A: You're goddamn right. You can take that to the bank, Mr. Grutman.
Q: And you love it, don't you?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. It's irrelevant and argumentative.
A: I hate it, boy.
* * *
Q: I see. Now, the next thing says, "Wasn't it a little cramped?" Answer, "Not after I kicked the goat out," close quote.
You got any proof of that?
A: Yeah. His -- the first time was a sheep.
Q: You got a photograph of Reverend Falwell having coitus with a sheep?
A: Yes, I have.
Q: You do? Where's that photograph?
A: I really have. It's in my property.
Q: And where is that physically located?
A: Captain Sivley's got it. It's here at FCI-Butner. And believe me, it's not in Springfield. It's here.
Q: Okay. Let's continue. It says, "Interviewer: I see. You must tell me all about it." And quoting Falwell in this ad, quote, "I never really expected to make it with Mom."
By the way, does the word or the phrase "make it" mean have sexual intercourse?
A: Yeah.
Q: Okay. "But then after she showed all the other guys in town such a good time, I figured, "What the hell!" close quote.
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection to the form of the question. It is not an ad. It's a parody of an ad. And it also doesn't quote Falwell.
A: Now, see, you're talking about the sheep there, Mr. Grutman.
MR. ISAACMAN: It has "Falwell," with some language following it.
Q: I'll read this to you again. Quote -- I'm reading it exactly --
A: I heard it.
Q: Fine. Then, I ask you, from that language, does that not convey the notion that Mrs. Falwell, Reverend Falwell's mother, was a promiscuous woman?
A: No. He was referring to the sheep, Mr. Falwell. He was screwing the sheep, at that time. See, he said he had to kick the goat out first.
Q: But, then it says, "I never really expected to make it with Mom, but then after she showed all the other guys in town such a good time, I figured, 'What the hell!'"
Are you telling me "guys" means sheep?
A: No. She was having an affair.
Q: With whom?
A: Hunh?
Q: With whom?
A: I don't think we should discuss that.
Q: No. I want to hear it from you, Mr. Flynt. Who do you say Reverend Falwell's mother was having an affair with?
A: Look, I'm not going to give the name. You can get it from Charlie Galbreath or Robert Barr. I am not going to give out the name. Or you can get it from Lieutenant White or Captain Sivley.
I'm through wet snitching today.
Q: I put it to you, Mr. Flynt, that you are making this up. You had no proof of any such thing.
A: You wanna bet?
Q: I'm asking you now.
A: If I ain't crazy, why would I make this up?
Q: Because, Mr. Flynt, you're an utterly irresponsible, arrogant, truculent, demented, deranged person.
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. Objection. You're not testifying here, Mr. Grutman.
MR. GRUTMAN: I was asked a question, and I've answered it.
MR. ISAACMAN: You're not testifying here.
MR. KAHN: You're supposed to be sworn first, Mr. Grutman.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Mr. Flynt, did you, before this ad was published, did you have any evidence, specifically, that Mrs. Falwell, Reverend Falwell's mother, had ever committed adultery or been a promiscuous or lascivious woman, with other guys?
A: Yes.
Q: What was that evidence?
A: A tape recording.
Q: Who gave you the tape recording?
A: Mr. Addison Lighthall, with the FBI.
Q: Addison Lighthall? Who's he?
A: He's been undercover with the FBI, for about twenty-four years.
Q: Twenty-four years with the FBI? Did he ever have anything to do with you?
A: Yes.
Q: What did he do for you?
A: Hunh?
Q: What did he do for you?
A: He bought the farm.
Q: What does buying the farm mean?
A: Ah, well, I understand he placed a tap on Bill Ryder's phone and Gordon Novel's phone. And I understand he loaned a three-way tap to Rogers Kirk.
Q: This man gave you a tape recording of Mrs. Falwell, The Reverend's mother? Tell me what was on the tape recording?
A: It was your voice, Mr. Grutman.
Q: My voice? And what was I doing on the tape recording?
A: You was talking to Rogers Kirk.
Q: Who is Rogers Kirk?
A: He's a photographer in Los Angeles.
Q: Was that in connection with Jackie Collins?
A: Yes, Mr. Grutman, it was.
Q: Now, I'm not asking you about Jackie Collins. I'm asking you about a tape recording which you told me that you claimed to have, indicating that Reverend Falwell's mother was an adulteress.
A: Yep.
Q: Did you get such a tape recording?
A: Sure have.
Q: Where is it?
A: Lieutenant Stanley's got it.
Q: Lieutenant Stanley. Does he work for Captain Sivley?
A: Yeah.
Q: I see.
A: He confiscated it from my room.
* * *
Q: What was on the tape recording?
A: Well, there's several of them. There's several hours of them, both video and audio.
Q: Mrs. Falwell, Reverend Falwell's mother, on a videotape?
A: No. I'm sorry. She's on audio.
Q: On audio. What is she doing on audio?
A: She's talking.
Q: To whom?
A: She's talking to a friend.
Q: And what is she saying?
A: She's talking about her son.
Q: When was the recording made?
A: I do not have the date on the recording.
Q: Was it made by Addison Lightall?
A: Yes.
Q: Under what circumstances did he gain access to Mrs. Falwell's proximity, so that he was able to make this taped conversation?
A: When he went to work for me.
Q: When did he do that?
A: He went to work for me in 1977.
Q: Are you sure of that?
A: Positive.
* * *
Q: No. I'm asking what proof you had about Mrs. Falwell, the Reverend's mother, having been a wicked and loose woman?
A: She was just saying that she wasn't -- that his father wasn't really his father. That's all. That he was a bastard.
Q: Mr. Flynt --
A: I'm under oath, Mr. Grutman.
Q: Yes, I know, Mr. Flynt. I wonder whether you do.
A: And I'm not crazy.
* * *
Q: When you got a tape recording of Mrs. Falwell, the mother of Jerry Falwell, proving that he was an illegitimate person, and that she was a lascivious woman who was an adulteress, considering the gripe that you had with Mr. Falwell for as long as you profess to have had it, would you tell us why you waited until 1983, before you disclosed it?
A: Because I wanted to run for president.
Q: Have you ever offered this tape to the world at large?
A: Ah, yeah.
Q: You sold certain DeLorean tapes to CBS, didn't you?
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. Irrelevant.
A: I didn't sold them. I gave it to them.
Q: Fine. Did you ever give these tapes of Mrs. Falwell to any media?
A: I certainly did.
Q: Who?
A: Miss Aviva Diamond, ABC News.
Q: When did you give it to Aviva Diamond?
A: On or about November 1st.
Q: What year?
A: 1983.
Q: This is a tape, an audio tape, of Reverend Falwell's mother, stating in words or substance that Jerry Falwell is an illegitimate child, and that she was a woman who fornicated with other men?
A: No. It's a tape of Addison Lighthall speaking with Fred Fielding, about Mr. Farwell. And he's also talking to Mr. Don Penny about Mr. Farwell. And Rudy Maxxa is on the tape, too.
And Mr. Grutman, I will produce these tapes for you, if you'll stay in North Carolina tonight.
Q: Where are they?
A: I tell you what, you let --
Q: Where are they?
A: -- me know what hotel you're at, and they'll --
Q: I'm staying right here. Where are they?
A: Okay. I have got copies in a -- in the Federal Bank Depository, in Los Angeles. Okay. And I can get in there.
Now, Mr. Kahn, if he was telling me the truth, David Kahn, not Ken Kahn, if Mr. David Kahn was telling me the truth in his Mailogram, that my property -- certain parts of my property in California, that is, not my property that's here, but my property in California is back in my house.
WITNESS: Is it back in my house, Mr. Kahn? I am talking about the tapes, Mr. Kahn, the video and the audio tapes, because I made plenty of copies of them.
And I put some in your mother's safety deposit box, and some in Bill Ryder's wife's safety deposit box.
He thinks he's holding the royal flush, but we know who's holding it, don't we, Mr. Kahn?
Now, where is the tape at, Mr. Kahn, because I gave it to you? And you seen it. And you listened to it.
And I'm talking about the video tape of Mr. Reagan, not Mr. Meese, because Arthur Barrons has got the Meese tape. But, you've got the audio tape between Jerry Falwell and Don Penny, and Rudy Maxxa, and Ronald Reagan.
And you know goddamn good and well what it was, because I put you on the phone, and you talked to Mr. Don Penny on the phone. And you told Mr. Don Penny to leave me alone.
MR. GRUTMAN: I call upon Mr. Kahn to produce the materials.
MR. KAHN: I know of no such materials, Mr. Grutman.
WITNESS: You are lying, Mr. Kahn. You are lying. And if Mr. Kahn does not want to produce it, Captain Sivley or Lieutenant Stanley will produce it.
Do you think -- hey, both of them guys are Americans. And they both fought in the war. And they have no intentions of leaving the country. Besides, do you think they could outrun a subpoena.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Mr. Flynt, if Mr. Kahn is a liar, and won't do your bidding, even though he's one of your lawyers, will you authorize Captain Sivley or Lieutenant Stanley to allow me to go into your room with you, after we finish this deposition?
A: I certainly will.
Q: And will you deliver to me the materials which you've told me so far are in your room?
A: I certainly will.
Q: All right. Then we go on further. "Interviewer: But your mom? Isn't that a bid odd? Falwell: I don't think so. Looks don't mean that much to me in a woman."
A: Can we interrupt the proceedings one second?
Q: Sure. Yeah.
WITNESS: David Kahn, me and Mr. Isaacman will handle things. Will you go call the law firm of Gaither and Nolan, and tell them to call Paul Ennis, and tell Paul Ennis to bring the Bell papers and the Ed Meese package, and have them here by the time depositions are finished. Okay?
And Captain Sivley will arrange for a viewing, in some room here in the prison, either in my room or here. Okay.
And we'll also arrange for the audio tape to be played, as well. Okay?
MR. KAHN: Larry, we're going to probably be taking a break. So, you want to wait until then?
WITNESS: No. We don't need you here for this, Mr. Kahn. You go make the call. And call Gaither and Nolan, you know. And do you know how to say "Code Pink"?
MR. KAHN: Yes, sir.
WITNESS: Tell them who bought the farm, Mr. Kahn.
* * *
Q: What proof did you have that Reverend Falwell has ever gotten drunk?
A: Congressman Robert K. Dornan told me. So did Congressman Bill Keating. So did Charlie Keating. And so did Eugene Smith. And so did Attorney Larry Stirts. And so did Attorney Charlie Capps. And so did Judge Simon Lease, and so did Fred Kartilano, the prosecutor in Cincinnati.
Q: They all told you this, before November?
A: And so did Brian Huff, the prosecutor in Georgia. And so did Mr. Rhodes, the prosecutor in Atlanta. You know Mr. Rhodes, don't you?
Q: They told you that?
A: Yeah.
Q: Leonard Rhodes?
A: Leonard Rhodes told me that. Do you know Leonard?
Q: Yes, I do.
A: Good man. You think he'd lie?
Q: I don't know that he said what you said.
A: If he said what I said he said, can we take it to the bank?
Q: What makes you think that Reverend Falwell ever drank Campari, ginger ale and soda?
A: Mr. Salisbury told me so.
Q: And this sentence, "And mom looked better than a Baptist whore with a hundred-dollar donation."
Who wrote those words?
A: Mr. Bruce Helford.
Q: Do you think those words are true?
A: Yes.
Q: Do you think that if they were false, and somebody read this his mother was characterized as a whore, that that would be a hurtful thing to him?
A: If it was --
MR. ISAACMAN: Objection. You're assuming it was intended to be true?
A: If it was true, I don't think it would hurt.
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: But, if it were false?
A: If it was false, I think it would upset Mr. Falwell very much. But, if it was true, I don't think it would.
Q: Did you want to upset Reverend Falwell?
A: Yes.
Q: Evening the score?
A: Yes. But, I was telling the truth.
Q: "Interviewer: Campari in the crapper with Mom -- how interesting. Well, how was it? Falwell: The Campari was great."
Do you remember the next line?
A: "The Campari was great." But, something about the order?
Q: No. "But Mom passed out before I could come."
Does the verb "come", in that context, stand for ejaculate or have a climax?
A: Yes.
Q: What proof did you ever have that such a thing took place?
A: Well, you see, Farwell's -- Farwell's mother had been drunk the night she got pregnant with him. That's what it was, you know, so it was just taking a little bit.
Q: This talks about, not the night that he was conceived, this talks about incest between someone who is post-pubescent and his mother.
A: Oh, no. We're talking about the goat, now. You forgot to double back, Mr. Grutman.
Q: "Mom passed out before I could come."
A: Yeah. He was fucking the goat -- the day she caught him fucking the goat once. That's in the affidavit. You see what I'm saying?
Q: No. I don't.
A: Well, they had some animals on their farm. So, when Farwell was a little boy, he got caught by his mother, once masturbating, and another time, screwing some of the animals on the farm. You know, I mean, you opened up this can of worms. I didn't.
Q: Do you have any photographs or tape recordings which were in your possession, before you caused this thing to appear?
A: Certainly do. They're in my room. And I give Captain Shivley permission to let you go in there and get them.
And you know what? He ain't going to say no. He's going to let you have them.
Q: Can we do that during the lunch period?
A: We certainly can.
Q: Thank you. Let that be clear. I'll do it during the lunch period. I'm almost finished with this, and then we can take the lunch.
"Campari in the crapper" -- well, we've done that.
"Interviewer: Did you ever try it again?"
What does the antecedent of "it" refer to?
A: I mean did he ever try the goat again.
Q: Oh, goat. I see.
A: Okay.
Q: It doesn't refer to his mother?
A: Yeah. But, he never -- it had happened several times with his mother. But, it was with the guy that she was having the affair with.
Q: Who was that guy?
A: Hunh?
Q: Can you identify her paramour?
A: Yes.
Q: Who?
A: Galbreath.
Q: Galbreath?
A: Yeah. He'll tell you. That's not the name, but I mean, he'll give you the affidavit.
Q: No. You tell me the name. Who is the person --
A: I don't remember the name. But, does it make any difference? As long as I'm telling the truth, does names and dates and places really matter?
Q: And of course, if you're not, Mr. Flynt --
A: I'm in a world of trouble, ain't I?
Q: You bet.
A: Okay.
Q: You bet. Take that to the bank.
* * *
Q: Anything else in there so far that we've covered, which you contributed to, if not entirely advanced?
A: Well, Howard, who's a friend of Pat Boone's, the one guy I got the affidavit from. And another one is a former governor of Tennessee. Okay.
WITNESS: And Isaacman, he's the guy that was at my house with John Pauley. And he's doing two years now, with that congressman, with Jenrette's husband. They're down at -- I think they're down at Eglin, or somewhere. You know what I'm saying?
So, what you're going to do, is you're going to have to call Charlie Galbreath, you know, and get Howard's number. And get the governor of Tennessee, you know, the one that introduced me to the guys that knew Falwell's friends that gave the affidavit.
MR. GRUTMAN: Okay.
WITNESS: You know what I'm talking about? You understand -- do you know who Mr. Galbreath is?
MR. ISAACMAN: No.
WITNESS: He is a Supreme Court Judge from the State of Tennessee. He left the bench to come over here and help me with my problems, because you couldn't get out of California.
And his address is 901 Stallman Building, Nashville, Tennessee. And he's in the phone directory.
Q: I take it, then, from what you --
WITNESS: Now, do you think you could call him and get a copy of that affidavit?
MR. ISAACMAN: (No response)
DIRECT EXAMINATION CONTINUED
BY MR. GRUTMAN:
Q: Mr. Flynt, I take it, then, from what you're telling me, that this publication about Reverend Falwell and Campari was not intended to parody or exaggerate anything, but to convey the truth. Is that right?
A: Yes, sir.
* * *
Q: And didn't it occur to you that if that wasn't true, you were attacking a man in his profession?
A: Yes.
Q: Did you appreciate, at the time that you wrote "okay," or approved this publication, that for Reverend Falwell to function in his livelihood, and in his commitment and career, he has to have an integrity that people believe in? Did you not appreciate that?
A: Yeah.
Q: And wasn't one of your objectives to destroy that integrity, or harm it, if you could?
A: To assassinate it.
* * *
Q: That's Judge Larkins?
A: Judge Larkins. He sent it back and wouldn't open the envelope, because I wrote him a letter, and told him it was coming. And I told him how I got it into the penitentiary.
I brought it in by my daughter, Judith Elaine Flynt, whose natural father, natural father, is John Fitzgerald Kennedy. Natural father.
She's got two different birth certificates. And the footprints are in the snow.
And she hired an attorney named Mr. Manning. And he came in to tell me I was in the wrong state. And I reminded him I was in the right state, when I gave him Jesse Helm's bank account. It's under the name of Western Goals, in Grand Cayman Islands. Do you understand?
Q: Right.
A: Now, I put the tape that you want in an envelope to Judge Robert Tagasugi. And I sent it to the Federal Courthouse, in Los Angeles, California. I had marked on the letter, "To be opened in the presence of the inmate." Special mail, legal correspondence, privileged correspondence.
The BOP deliberately opened up that package, and took the tape out of there. And they took a lot of other documents out of there that are pertinent to what we're doing here involving Mr. Farwell, because the affidavit that I have from the people in Virginia is a real affidavit, by real persons.
And I have a court order in those proceedings that says that the Bureau of Prisons can put whatever limitations that they want on these depositions. Now, what they're doing is they're putting every limitation that they possibly can on them, so they can try to go home tonight.
But, if you do your job, none of them will go home, we'll get Mr. Sam Samples, or Dr. Sam Samples held in contempt.
And believe me, Dr. Sam Samples has a name, and so does every other asshole in here that's been violating my civil rights since I've been here.
* * *
MR. GRUTMAN: Did you cause a search to be made of Mr. Flynt's room?
MR. WILLINGHAM: Yes.
MR. GRUTMAN: When you say you're the case manager, does that mean that this person is under your jurisdiction?
MR. WILLINGHAM: I provide casework type services to him. Yes.
MR. GRUTMAN: Okay. Did you find any videotapes back in Mr. Flynt's room.
MR. WILLINGHAM: No. I did not.
MR. GRUTMAN: Did you find any audio tapes back in his room?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Did you find any photographs back in his room?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Specifically, photographs involving Mr. Falwell having sexual intercourse with his mother?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Any boys?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Or any animals?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Or masturbating?
MR. WILLINGHAM: No.
MR. GRUTMAN: Did you find any affidavits or copies of affidavits attesting to that fact Mr. [*140] Falwell had had incest with his mother, or was observed by anyone to have been masturbating, by looking at a picture of his mother in a Sears Roebuck catalog? Did you find such a thing?
MR. WILLINGHAM: I asked Mr. Flynt for items that would pertain to this hearing. And he gave me a stack of legal materials here. And I've brought those up here.
MR. GRUTMAN: Okay. Well, we'll look at those later on.
WITNESS: Will you have Mr. Willingham bring them over here, so I can get you what you want?
MR. GRUTMAN: All right.
WITNESS: Bring them over here, Mr. Willingham.
MR. ISAACMAN: Mr. Kahn reviewed those materials. And I'd like Mr. Kahn to indicate --
MR. KAHN: In Mr. Willingham's presence, approximately a couple of minutes ago, I went through the entire stack of documents in front of him.
And while I did not read any of the letters or documents in the thing, there were -- every document I reviewed in front of Mr. Willingham. And there were no affidavits, and there were no photographs of any kind. There were no tape recordings of any kind. There were no tape recordings of any kind, or anything like that.
WITNESS: You're a liar, Mr. Kahn.
MR. KAHN: Well --
WITNESS: You're a liar, Mr. Kahn.
MR. GRUTMAN: Mr. Kahn, were there any documents relating to Reverend Falwell?
MR. KAHN: None that I saw.
WITNESS: Did you open all the envelopes, Mr. Kahn?
MR. KAHN: No. I did not open all the envelopes.
WITNESS: Then, Mr. Kahn, would you mind handing me the paper?
* * *
Q: Do you realize, Mr. Flynt, that you can injure people by inflicting mental suffering and disturbance on them, that will cause pain that is as great or greater than physical suffering?
A: You goddamn fucking right. And you're all going to be on your knees, before we finish here.
* * *
Q: How about his daughter? Do you say he made any threats on your daughter Tonya?
A: Did he what? No. He had nothing to say about Tonya.
Q: Besides --
A: Excuse me a minute.
Captain Sivley, you told me if I behaved, those cuffs wouldn't go back on when I got back over there. Now, when I went back over there -- and I want you to write this down -- he assaulted me, and he put the cuffs back on.
And the reason why he assaulted me is because I told the truth over here. And you guys took me back over, saying I was acting crazy.
Q: Mr. Flynt, apart from --
A: And they did not let me eat when I was back there. They would not let me go to the bathroom. But, everybody was doing their little behavior modification. Like, the dentist was there, ready to put my tooth back in again, which he knocked out the other night, Mr. Kaiser, because I refused to eat the food and drink the water.
You know the reason why? Because there's nine letters that Captain Sivley has, but I got three more I want to show you from Mr. Paul Ennis, my attorney, postmarked Atlanta, where they were threatened to poison my food.
You see what I'm saying?
Q: Mr. Flynt, we are --
A: My life's in danger, not yours, asshole. Okay? And you just let me finish. You come here to take these depositions today, but don't interrupt my statements or my answers. I'm not asking questions; I'm making a statement.
Q: How about answering questions?
A: Now, Captain Sivley knows who sent those letters threatening to poison me.
Q: Mr. Flynt --
A: He knows every person in here who has assaulted me. And he will tell the truth, if you put him under oath. Now, we've got to get to the medical question here on this. And I haven't told one single lie.
Sometimes I talk in parables and make jokes, because you have to maintain your sanity in any goddamn fucking proceedings like this.
Now, do you people understand what I'm trying to say?
* * *
Q: . . . I want you, while you're on camera, to find the Fielding envelope which you just referred to in answering my question that within the Fielding envelope would be found the certification authenticating forensically that the photograph of Jerry Falwell and Warren Burger in fellatio is an authentic photograph.
Now you find that one for me, and then I'll take your whole grab bag.
MR. ISAACMAN: I have an objection to your taking his whole grab bag.
MR. GRUTMAN: He's offered it to me.
MR. ISAACMAN: I understand, but I don't think -- I don't think he's -- I don't think he's competent to make that decision.
WITNESS: The hell I ain't competent to make it. Just watch me.
Why did you take the envelope addressed to Mr. Fielding?
MR. KAHN: I didn't take anything. Mr. Willingham, you saw me review it, one at the time, and you saw I did not open anything and did not take anything.
A: Well, Mr. Grutman, I had a copy. I'll make a copy of everything.
Q: You've got it? Open it up. Just open it up on camera while the videotape is rolling. Please open that. And the winner in California is --
A: (hands document to counsel)
MR. GRUTMAN: Let the record reflect that the witness has just flung over to me a document from the United States District Court, Central District of California, which is captioned "The United States of America against Larry Flynt," Case number Criminal 83-979-CBN, the title to which document is called, quote, "Ex Parte Application for Modification of Commitment Order and Request for Transfer from Springfield, Missouri, To Terminal Island, California," pursuant to 18 U.S. Code, Section 4244,
* * *
Q: I'll take that.
A: Give me -- I want to mark this one.
Q: I can't interfere with the procedures here.
A: Give me a pencil. I'm not giving it to him without my initials on it, Mr. Willingham, may I borrow your pen?
MR. ISAACMAN: I am raising an objection to his turning over any documents that counsel does not approve of, and my objection is that he's not competent to make that determination. He's represented by counsel --
WITNESS: (Interposing) Oh, I can prove to you I am competent.
MR. ISAACMAN: -- Counsel rules, counsel has indicated that those documents should not be turned over. And so I request that, Mr. Grutman, you not review these documents that he's turning over without counsel's consent until a court makes a determination on his competency.
WITNESS: Hey, Mr. Grutman, we got the goods on them. Just take this. I'll fire some more your way in just a minute.
MR. KAHN: All right, Mr. Grutman, I'm also telling you that there have been a number of courts which have indicated that Mr. Flynt's not competent. And that you're reviewing those documents without his counsel seeing them.
WITNESS: These aren't the ones that were in the envelope. He's a liar, Mr. Grutman. These were the ones outside the envelope.
* * *
Q: (by Mr. Grutman) Now, I've marked these various documents, Mr. Flynt, and none of them appear to be what I asked for. Namely, where is the forensic certification as to the authenticity of the photograph of Warren Burger and Jerry Falwell in fellatio?
A: Would you let the record reflect that I will produce that affidavit before the conclusion of these depositions?
Q: You told me it was among the papers --
A: (Interposing) Then, fine, let me take time to find it. If you want to proceed --
Q: Fine, I'll give you all the time you want.
A: Fine, okay.
Q: You don't have to do it right now, Mr. Flynt.
A: Okay, well, right here. I think you might want to depose Captain Sivley.
Q: Fine. No, you hold on to that. You hold on to --
A: (Interposing) Here it is, here it is.
Q: Here is what?
A: Here it is.
Q: Here is what?
A: (Hands paper writing to counsel) Read it. You've got my permission to read it.
Q: It's the last document I'm going to look at, waste time --
A: (Interposing) Look at it, look at it.
Q: Okay.
MR. KAHN: Mr. Grutman, I really think, you know, you've already been informed as to the fact that Mr. Flynt's represented by an attorney, and his attorney has indicated that he --
MR. GRUTMAN: (Interposing) All right, this will be Exhibit No. 9 (sic). It's apparently a request made to Captain Sivley.
MR. KAHN: -- he wishes to view these documents, and never --
MR. GRUTMAN: It is dated April 3, 1984, and it reads as follows: "I request a video monitor and a VHS video recorder for the purpose of viewing the Vicki Morgan sex tapes featuring Ronald Reagan, Edwin Meese, Senator Paul Laxalt, Bill Casey, William French Smith, Barry Goldwater, Jr., and a lot of other celebrities and politicians. Vicki Morgan and three FBI agents have been killed over the tapes.
"Make the equipment available, and I'll have the tapes here in twenty-four hours, or give me a BP-9." Close quote.
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 8 Marked For Identification)
Q: (by Mr. Grutman) Among the people you mentioned, you didn't mention Warren Burger or Jerry Falwell by name, did you?
A: I'm not God, Mr. Grutman. I couldn't manage to get them all on tape. But the ones I haven't got, the law firm of Gaither and Noland in Springfield, Missouri, have. And not only there are copies there, Dr. Madalyn Murray O'Hair has copies. Dick Gregory has copies. Don Hewitt had one copy. He had the fake one.
Q: I read you --
A: (Interposing) He had the one faked by Bill Ryder and Gordon Novel, and I want to know if David Kahn had anything to do with that tape.
Q: The next one reads --
A: (Interposing) And Mr. Grutman, Jeff Steinman --
MR. ISAACMAN: You understand, Mr. Grutman, I have an objection to each one of these documents.
A: -- and there's a nice little Jewish boy named Jeff Steinman. I think if I was you, I would talk to Jeff Steinman and Tom Loflin and Stokely Carmichael, and you know who I gave a copy of the real Ed Meese sex tape in color to, and the Bill Casey one in color to, and the Jerry Farwell one, which is in color -- see, you can fake a black and white tape if you're smart enough, cause some of the Abscam tapes were faked.
But the color tapes you can't fake, because they show the sweat and the pores, and they show the blood, and they show everything. I gave Mr. Marlon Brando a copy, and he has advised me by telephone that he would be happy to make it available to you.
Q: All right.
A: Mr. Tom Loflin has a copy, and I arranged a screening over at Mr. Loflin's house and showed the Jerry Farwell tape and the Ronald Reagan tape and the Ed Meese tape to Mr. Clifford Pearlman, and he had his wife with him, Mr. and Mrs. Clifford Pearlman.
* * *
Q: And I take it that you wanted to embarrass Chief Justice Burger and Reverend Falwell, didn't you?
A: Damn right.
Q: It wasn't a parody. You really intended to hurt them, didn't you?
A: You're goddamn right. That attorney there, Mr. Grutman, Mr. Mitch Basker, he's handling negotiations with the White House on these tapes.
Now you know, when you first make this word public, they'll say I'm lying and then they'll say I'm crazy. And then we'll teach how to double back, Mr. Grutman.
* * *
Q: Did you -- let's see, December 1981. Were you aware that in the publisher's statement, Reverend Falwell and the Moral Majority were again adversely referred to in the pages of Hustler?
A: Yes.
MR. GRUTMAN: I offer that as the next numbered exhibit.
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 16 was Marked For Identification)
A: If I take responsibility for it all, you don't really have to worry about getting --
Q: (Interposing) Well, I know, but I have to do this in English to simply build a record.
Now, here's Dwaine Tinsley again in the February 1982 issue. It shows a patriarchal figure sitting in a chair labeled "God," and it says, "Send someone down to see Falwell. Tell him to get off his power trip."
A: Hey, David.
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 17 was Marked For Identification)
Q: Mr. Flynt, do you take responsibility for that cartoon?
A: Sure, yeah.
Q: And it was intended, of course, again, to hold Reverend Falwell up to hatred, obloquy, scorn, contempt or truculence, as I think you added?
A: No. There's the affidavit you wanted, and it didn't quite make it. It's to Judge Tagasugi, and somebody fucked with it before it got there.
Q: All right, I'm going to pause and open up --
A: (Interposing) You keep that. Stick that in your pocket, Mr. Grutman.
Q: I'm going to open it on the T.V. You've handed me an envelope which says it has an affidavit in it --
A: Well, it's been opened now, and taped back up, and I didn't do that. I don't know what they took out of it. Let's see what's in there.
MR. ISAACMAN: You're opening it over objection of counsel.
MR. GRUTMAN: Yes, I'm opening it over objection. It was handed to me by Mr. Flynt.
Q: (By Mr. Grutman) It reads -- it's from you.
A: Unh-hunh. (Yes) Would you read it for the record?
Q: It's dated March 19, 1984. All right?
I'm going to read it into the record. We have a little time.
A: Good.
Q: "Dear Robert." It's addressed to Robert Tagasugi, which I take it is a Federal Judge in California.
A: Yeah.
Q: And this is from you?
A: I'm on a first-name basis with him now.
Q: Okay, it reads:
"I have given up on these motherfuckers. I'm writing to you as a final, rather -- as a friend -- rather than as a judge, because I have nothing better to do.
"Judge Larkins said I could have my food supplement -- ah -- can't read it -- said I could be examined by my own doctors. But so far, Warden Samples has refused to obey any judge other than judge -- other than the sentencing judge.
"Dr. Kirby Samples say that your lack jurisdiction (sic) because you are not the sentencing judge.
"I say this because I told them that you and Judge Marshall had ordered my nurse therapist and -- something or other -- in at Terminal Island."
A: Kinesiologist.
Q: Anesthesiologist?
A: Kinesiologist. There's a difference. Neorkinesiologist.
Q: "They say the order must be reaffirmed each visit. So help me, when I get these handcuffs off and out of these restraints, I will choke the little cock-sucker until he turns blue in the face. Being dumb is just no excuse for violating someone's civil rights.
"I think I will ask Reagan for diplomatic immunity, and then I'm going to go to Grenada or El Salvador.
"The Secret Service was in again, asking if I was serious. How dumb can they get? I can't even get indicted for pimping."
A: Perjury.
Q: Oh, for perjury? All right.
"Gay Talese" -- you may yet, Mr. Flynt.
A: I'm trying.
Q: "Gay Talese" -- you bet. Take that to the bank.
"Gay Talese, the author who wrote 'Honor thy Father,' has fucked the same blonde that John F. Kennedy and I screwed around the USS Enterprise. You should ask Gay how old she was at the time. She said she was 19, but I swear she didn't look over 15.
"Jack Alnap called her the blue nun, but it was really --"
A: Jack who?
Q: Alnap?
A: Jack who?
Q: It says Alnap.
A: Let me see that.
Q: "But it was really brandy, white wine, or red wine. He didn't give a shit who knew, and neither did I."
A: Oh, that's Jack Kennedy. Put it in there right. Okay?
Q: Oh, this is "Jack always." Sorry, I misread that.
"The black widow was the code, 'Bravo Whiskey,' which meant we were fucking and no one should come in the Admiral's cabin. To for Tango meant Tallyho. That was also the name of a bar in Norfolk where I used to meet Kathy the Blue Nun.
"But I'm not going to give you her last name because I don't trust your brother.
"My one doctor George Ward has moved to Hannans, according to --"
A: Has moved to Hawaii.
Q: Hawaii. "-- according to Marshall Laslow. He doesn't want to --"
A: Dr. Marshall Laslow.
Q: "-- doesn't want to waste time with the study ordered by Ms. Dwyer. So if you don't want --"
A: Judge Dwyer. Magistrate Dwyer.
Q: "-- you don't want to order her here, I guess that there is another dead doctor. They all think that they are God. But you and I both know that George Wallace -- something -- himself -- claimed himself God before I came along."
A: No, George Wallace declared himself --
Q: "-- God long before I came along. You see the flag nor the purple heart never bothered them, because they know I earned them both. It is where I stuck the flag that is driving them crazy. They can't figure out whether I stuck it in the Koran or in the King James.
"Mrs. Lillian once told me when I visited Plains, Georgia, that Marcos in the Philippines performed the Koran over the 'Hand' --"
A: Preferred.
Q: "-- preferred the Koran over the 'hand,' you know what I mean?"
A: The hand, h-a-n-d.
Q: Yeah, what is that?
A: The Samurai.
Q: Oh, I see.
"Well, I tell you, I prefer the real thing, and I don't mean the judge. Real, I mean, the real wine. They have a bottle on the menu that cost ten thousand a bottle. Why don't you come down and visit with Charlie and I 'ops' remember Charlie and the Viet Kong (sic) were the same --"
A: ASAP.
Q: "-- 'Victor Kilo.' They will both kill you unless you know them both.
"We will make Ronnie and Nancy knock their -- hock their jewelry and ranch. Can you believe the Kennedys and Carters both let those two sons of bitches live, after they paid for everything with Bobby's blood?
"You can bet your ass the death penalty will stay if I have anything to say about it. It should be in "the federal system, too.
"I hope Bush tries to pander just one of these assholes. Essentially --"
A: Pardon.
Q: Pardon.
"Especially Casey. I want that motherfucker all to myself, you know. I think the victim's family should decide how they should die or be punished. I favor torture over the death penalty.
"Don't forget if you come bringing some Jazula and Saki. Tell the Gruk to bring the ozo."
A: Ozo Saki.
Q: "Well, Bob, it's the late show you are on again, so I am signing off. Your friend, Larry."
Well, I have read all of that. I'll put it in an envelope and ask that it be marked as an exhibit.
A: Ask that it goes to Judge Tagasugi.
Q: Yeah, and I will ask you, Mr. Flynt, whether you remember that before you asked me to read that, you told me that was the affidavit to prove the truth of Reverend Falwell's fornication and incest, et cetera.
A: Well, it was in the envelope and they opened it up and took it out. Sivley knows exactly where it is. It's with the glasses.
And I think you ought to ask him to go get it because it's signed.
(Plaintiff's Deposition Exhibit 18 was Marked For Identification)
Q: I show you the March 1983 issue of Hustler --
A: (Interposing) I can't keep them from tampering with my mail. Can you?
* * *
Q: I thought you told me that everything that appeared in Hustler when you were in charge had to get your approval?
A: That cartoon was commissioned by the publisher at the same time I put Jesus H. Christ on the masthead of that December issue.
He came in like Mr. Spock. He would beam up through the window.
* * *
Q: You suggest Reverend Falwell messed with your leg?
A: I'm saying Reverend Farwell messed with my cock, and that's enough. He kept me in pain for six years.
Q: In what respect did Reverend Falwell mess with your penis?
A: 'Cause Reverend Farwell ordered --
Q: Ordered what? ?
A: -- my assassination in Georgia.
Q: You know, Mr. Flynt, you expect us to take you seriously about this. There are about a half a dozen people that you have accused of being responsible for your being physically injured in 1978.
A: There were several people involved. I'll be glad to give you all their names.
Q: Yes. Have you ever before today suggested that Reverend Falwell was in any way involved in a conspiracy to effect your having been shot?
A: Yes.
Q: Where did you do that?
A: I told Mr. David Kahn this. And I tried to tell Mr. Isaacman, but he would not listen to it. He made me tell a psychiatrist instead.
But Mr. Kahn has always known, and in addition to that, there's one set of psychiatric records that I want to give you permission to get. It's from Dartmouth Hospital in Dayton, Ohio, and from Dayton State Hospital in Dayton.
* * *
Q: Have you attempted to divest yourself of your assets so as to render yourself execution-proof in the event that Reverend Falwell obtains a judgment against you?
A: No. I want Reverend Farwell to obtain a judgment against him, because what I'd like to do -- see, I'm putting out two editions of Hustler now -- soft-core and hard-core.
The soft-core edition is going to be for the Jesus freaks, you know. And the hard-core edition's going to be for me and all the rest of the perverts.
Q: You consider yourself a pervert?
A: No. I don't, but everybody else does. So I'm going to go along with them.
* * *
Q: That's right, Mr. Flynt. You blew up the Senate building.
A: Is that --
* * *
A: No, sir. I want to tell you who blew up the building.
Q: Okay.
A: Bill Ryder and Gordon Novel blew it up. And John DeLorean --
Q: They were working for you at the time.
A: John DeLorean had nothing to do with it. No.
Q: But they were working for you at the time, weren't they?
A: No. Jean Caufield and Sam -- and Sam was working -- what's Sam's last name -- Sam --
MR. KAHN: Bast.
A: No, you're talking about Big Bast. I'm talking about Sam Walker -- General Walker from Atlanta, 'cause he's the one told me about General Brown and Farwell's connection to the CDC -- Center for Disease Control.
We had the meeting, and, see, I was meeting with Stokely Carmichael and Russell Means, and Dr. Madalyn Murray O'Hair. Okay.
And I was up till four o'clock in the morning trying to make sure that nothing happened. Okay?
And that's the night that I traded the Meese tape for the Laxalt tape -- Senator Paul Laxalt, Republican, Nevada, and it's real.
Q: Mr. Flynt --
A: And Mr. Frank Sinatra has a copy.
* * *
Q: Okay. Before I conclude my examination of you, and turn you over to your own counsel for cross-examination, I would like to ask you one last time, do you presently have any tape recording, any video tape, any photograph, any affidavit, or any other writing which is in this facility or in this room which indicates that there is any truth to what was published in the Campari ad about Reverend Falwell?
A: Yes. Yes.
Q: And I will ask you a very simple question, in two words, produce it.
A: I am on disciplinary segregation. I have been placed there by the IDC unit and the UDC team. I have asked that Judge John B. Larkins lift the sanctions imposed by the Bureau of Prisons so they will return my property to me.
But everything I am asking you for, I have given copies to Lieutenant Stanley George Zahalion and Alan Graham. And Madalyn Murray O'Hair and Dick Gregory have some of them.
Now the information that you want on Mr. Farwell, I'll tell you what, it is real. Okay? And you know who I want to get it from? I want to get it from Dr. Alan Freedman at Duke University, because he does not work for the BOP, and he's got a copy of it.
* * *
Q: Whether they were in Los Angeles, or anywhere else, you did have certified financial statements for your company?
A: No. I gave power of attorney for that purpose to Dr. Victor Coleman, Clement Falls, Oregon.
I went up to meet with him at the same time I met with the FBI. And I met with Ken Graybill, the deputy director of the criminal division of the FBI. Him and Don Foster.
And Don Foster and him and Addison Lighthall asked me to help them go get Vesco and bring him back. And I told him, you know, that we'd get him in due time.
And they presented to me at that time a tape of Bill Casey and William French Smith laughing and talking about how they overthrew the government of Helmut Schmidt and Helmut Cole in Germany and blamed it on some Communist Iranian reactionary group.
And I have all of this stuff in a safe place. And I got plenty of copies if you want it. You got to understand, boy, the FBI is working for me. Not you.
Q: Thank you very much, Mr. Flynt.
* * *