Testimony of F.B.I. Agent Harry Samit in the Zacarias Moussaoui Trial

(March 9, 2006: transcript pages 793-989)

HARRY SAMIT, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, AFFIRMED
3   MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
4   THE COURT: Yes, sir.

5                                   DIRECT EXAMINATION
6   BY MR. NOVAK
7   Q. Sir, could you introduce yourself to the good jurors by
8   telling them your first and your last name, spelling both?
9   A. Harry Samit, H-a-r-r-y S-a-m-i-t.
10 Q. Mr. Samit, could you tell the folks by whom you're employed?
11 A. The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
12 Q. In what capacity?
13 A. As a special agent.
14 Q. And how long have you been a special agent with the FBI?
15 A. Since January of 1999.
16 Q. Is that when you left the FBI academy?
17 A. No. I left the FBI academy in May of 1999.
18 Q. And when you left the academy in May of 1999, where did you
19 get assigned to?
20 A. The Minneapolis field office.
21 Q. And have you been assigned there since then?
22 A. I have.
23 Q. All right. So you remain a special agent up there in
24 Minneapolis; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.

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1   Q. And could you tell the good folks on what -- what kind of
2   assignment do you have as a special agent with the FBI up there in
3   Minneapolis?
4   A. I'm an investigator assigned to the Joint Terrorism Task
5   Force.
6   Q. Tell the folks what the Joint Terrorism Task Force is.
7   A. The Joint Terrorism Task Force is an organization of law
8   enforcement agents and officers who investigate international
9   terrorism under the framework set up by the FBI. It's got
10 personnel from a variety of different law enforcement agencies.
11 Q. Do you want to list some of the different agencies that work
12 with you on that Joint Terrorism Task Force?
13 A. Immigration and Naturalization Service, United States Secret
14 Service, local police officers, sheriff's deputies, a variety of
15 different investigators.
16 Q. And beyond your assignment on the, on the -- JTTF is the
17 acronym for the Joint Terrorism Task Force; is that right?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. Beyond your assignment to the JTTF, can you tell us what else
20 you do there as a special agent up there in Minnesota?
21 A. At the time in 1999, I was assigned as a pilot with the FBI
22 as well.
23 Q. We're going to talk about your pilot training in a second,
24 but your squad that you're assigned to is squad what?
25 A. Squad 5.

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1   Q. And squad 5 up there includes the investigation of what types
2   of crime?
3   A. In, in 2001, it included the investigation of international
4   terrorism, domestic terrorism, and foreign counterintelligence.
5   Q. And would it be fair to say that since your inception into
6   the FBI, your initial assignment up there in Minneapolis, you've
7   basically been working full-time on terrorism investigations?
8   A. Yes, sir.
9   Q. Now, could you tell us, have you received any type of
10 specialized training in the world of terrorism?
11 A. I have. During the FBI academy, the new agent training,
12 there was a terrorism integrated case scenario which I
13 participated in along with my class. I also attended a basic
14 international terrorism in-service after graduating the FBI
15 academy, and then later a double agent and recruitment in-service
16 as well.
17 Q. Okay. Now, in addition to that, you're a pilot as well; is
18 that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. And have you received any type of pilot training within the
21 FBI?
22 A. I have. I attended the FBI-sponsored Cessna Pilots
23 Association introduction to the Cessna 182 aircraft.
24 Q. Those are little planes; is that right?
25 A. That's correct.

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1   Q. All right.
2   A. As well as their air crew coordination seminar.
3   Q. All right. Do you want to tell the folks what you did before
4   you joined the FBI?
5   A. I was an officer in the United States Navy.
6   Q. And how long were you employed by the United States Navy?
7   A. From May of 1990 until joining the FBI in January of 1999.
8   Q. So for about nine years; is that right?
9   A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And when you left the Navy after those nine years, what was
11 your rank?
12 A. Lieutenant commander.
13 Q. Okay. So you were commissioned in what area?
14 A. In intelligence.
15 Q. All right. And what exactly -- what was your duties there in
16 the Navy as an intelligence officer?
17 A. During my time in intelligence, I spent the entire time
18 assigned to aviation commands. I was first assigned to a
19 sea-going squadron, flying aircraft off of an aircraft carrier. I
20 did an exchange tour with the Canadian Air Force at their
21 headquarters in Ottawa, and then I was an instructor at the Navy
22 Fighter Weapons School, a top gun.
23 Q. And what is it that you were supposed to do? What was your
24 job?
25 A. As an intelligence officer with aviation units, it was my job

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1   primarily to evaluate threat air forces and air defense forces, to
2   look at their training, their capabilities, specifically with
3   regard to pilot training capabilities. We'd evaluate -- I would
4   evaluate the number of hours, the types of training they did, and
5   determine what kind of pilots they would be.
6   Q. Okay. Now, you talked to us also about the fact that you
7   went to the top gun school; is that right?
8   A. That's correct. I was there as a student, and then I stayed
9   as an instructor.
10 Q. Okay. And you have training also as a navigator; is that
11 right?
12 A. That's correct.
13 Q. And for those of us who have watched the "Top Gun" movie,
14 were you sitting in the first seat or the second seat?
15 A. The back seat.
16 Q. All right. And how much training did you get as a navigator?
17 A. Approximately six months.
18 Q. All right. And going back to your training in terms of what
19 you were supposed to analyze, how much time did you spend
20 analyzing the pilot trainings for other countries?
21 A. When I was doing threat evaluations and looking at threat air
22 forces, probably 40 to 50 percent would be evaluating the pilot
23 capabilities.
24 Q. Over what span of time?
25 A. The entire time, from 1990 -- 1991 to 1999.

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1   Q. So during those nine years, you were -- I gather you were
2   evaluating hostile countries to see what kind of pilot training
3   that they were giving to, to members of their Air Force; is that
4   right?
5   A. Yes, sir.
6   Q. All right. Now -- so you're pretty familiar with flight
7   training; is that correct?
8   A. Flight standards, absolutely, sir.
9   Q. All right. Now, you yourself, separate from the Navy, became
10 a pilot; is that right?
11 A. That's correct.
12 Q. And when was it approximately that you became a pilot?
13 A. 1997.
14 Q. And could you tell us, what's your license certification
15 level?
16 A. I am a private pilot, single engine fixed wing land airplane,
17 and I have a complex and high-performance endorsement.
18 Q. Okay. And the private pilot license, is that known as a PPL?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And could you tell the folks how it is that you went about
21 getting your PPL?
22 A. I had flown in the Navy and decided that I enjoyed that. My
23 tour in Canada with the Canadian Air Force was a ground job. I
24 didn't get to fly, so I went and decided I wanted a private
25 pilot's license so I could do that. I went to a flying school. I

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1   asked, inquired about price and availability. They were
2   welcoming. They said: Come on in, and we'll teach you to fly.
3   Q. And what did you have to do before they started teaching you?
4   Did you have to take any type of physical?
5   A. I did. I had to take a medical to prove that I was medically
6   fit to be able to fly.
7   Q. Does that happen with anybody? Is that required by the FAA
8   that before you can get your PPL, that you have to take some basic
9   level of a physical of some sort?
10 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
11 Q. And what's the purpose behind that? What do they examine you
12 for?
13 A. To make sure that vision, cardio, respiratory system, hearing
14 are all in accordance with my ability, with anyone's ability to
15 operate an aircraft safely.
16 Q. Okay. And did you do that?
17 A. I did.
18 Q. Okay. And did you get your -- you were medically passed; is
19 that right?
20 A. I was.
21 Q. And then did you get your training there in Ottawa at that
22 flight school that you attended?
23 A. That's correct.
24 Q. All right. And could you tell us, when you start your flight
25 school, what's the first thing that you do?

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1   A. In my case, I went to ground school.
2   Q. And can you tell the folks what flight school -- ground
3   school consists of?
4   A. It's academic training. Aircraft systems, navigation, rules
5   and regulations governing how you are allowed to fly an airplane.
6   Very similar to the types of aviation training that began my naval
7   aviation training.
8   Q. Okay. Thereafter, did you start taking flight training where
9   you actually flew in the plane?
10 A. I did.
11 Q. By the way, what kind of planes were you flying in at that
12 time? The little Cessnas?
13 A. Cessna 150s.
14 Q. No kind of jets or anything like that, is that right?
15 A. No.
16 Q. All right. Can you tell us, do you just jump in the Cessna
17 and start taking it up for a ride, or has somebody got to jump in
18 there with you?
19 A. You're in there with a qualified instructor.
20 Q. All right. And how many hours did you spend with a qualified
21 instructor in dual-flight situations, where you're not flying
22 solo?
23 A. Dual flight, where the instructor is with me in the airplane,
24 it took me about ten hours of dual flight before I was ready to
25 solo.

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1   Q. Okay. And did you indeed solo?
2   A. I did.
3   Q. All right. And then ultimately, how many hours did it take
4   you until you were certified as a -- with your PPL license?
5   A. Just under 50.
6   Q. All right. And you got -- you were certified; is that right?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   Q. And approximately how many pilot hours do you have as you sit
9   here today as a private pilot?
10 A. Approximately 250.
11 Q. And approximately how many hours do you have sitting here
12 today as a navigator?
13 A. About 350.
14 Q. Now, despite those hours, I guess combined over 500 hours,
15 have you ever tried to go up to the next step of getting your
16 commercial license?
17 A. I have not.
18 Q. How many hours do you think that it normally takes before you
19 go up to that next step?
20 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection, Your Honor. He's an FBI
21 agent, not a commercial pilot. That's irrelevant.
22 MR. NOVAK: Well, no, he's a --
23 THE COURT: He may be, but I think we've already heard a
24 great deal of this from the other witnesses, and I had assumed
25 Agent Samit was being called for other purposes.

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1   MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Your Honor. I'll move on.
2   THE COURT: I think before you move on to a new topic,
3   this is a logical stopping point for the one-hour lunch break.
4   Agent Samit, you'll need to be back here at 1:30. We'll recess
5   court until that time.
6   (Recess from 12:28 p.m., until 1:30 p.m.)

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1   A F T E R N O O N S E S S I O N
2   (Defendant and jury in.)
3   THE COURT: All right. MR. NOVAK?
4   MR. NOVAK: May I proceed?
5   THE COURT: Yes, sir.
6   MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
7   HARRY SAMIT, GOVERNMENT'S WITNESS, PREVIOUSLY AFFIRMED,
8   RESUMED
9                              DIRECT EXAMINATION - (continued)
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Agent Samit, on August the 15th of 2001, were you assigned
12 still as the special agent to the FBI in Minneapolis?
13 A. I was.
14 Q. And at that time did you have an occasion to get assigned to
15 the investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And at that time who was your supervisor?
18 A. I had an acting supervisor, Gregory Jones.
19 Q. And was there a fellow special agent by the name of Dave Rapp
20 that also worked with you?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Was he relatively new?
23 A. He was very new, yes, sir.
24 Q. Do you want to tell us how it is that you -- how the
25 investigation into Zacarias Moussaoui began?

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1   A. Special Agent Rapp had complaint duty that day. It is a
2   rotating shift. All the agents in the office have to answer phone
3   calls from the public and other law enforcement agencies. Special
4   Agent Rapp had occasion to take a call from Pan Am, and the
5   person, the caller, Tim Nelson, provided some fairly significant
6   information.
7   Q. What was the initial information that you-all received there
8   from Pan Am?
9   A. That they had a student they were training at the flight
10 academy on simulators for 747-400 series aircraft who was very
11 unusual.
12 Q. Okay. Did they give you the student's name?
13 A. They did.
14 Q. And did they tell you why it is that the student was unusual?
15 A. Yes, sir. They said that he didn't have any ratings, any
16 aviation ratings or licenses.
17 Q. What does that mean to you as a criminal investigator?
18 A. It means that for a person to want to do expensive aviation
19 training, typically it is going to lead somewhere, to a job
20 opportunity or to a job enhancement.
21 Q. And by not pursuing the ratings, that means they are just not
22 doing it for the -- to benefit themselves financially; is that
23 right?
24 A. Yes, sir.
25 Q. Not worth the investment, right?

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1   A. Yes, sir.
2   Q. Did they tell you whether the student, Mr. Moussaoui, was
3   employed by an airline?
4   A. They did. They said he was not. He had no affiliation with
5   any airline.
6   Q. Was that unusual?
7   A. It was.
8   Q. Why was that unusual?
9   A. Because the typical student, as was explained to us, is an
10 airline pilot or is seeking employment with an airline and is
11 already qualified to do so.
12 Q. And was it also -- would it also be the norm that that's who
13 would pay for this expensive training?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, this is an FBI agent. We
15 don't need leading questions every time for him, Your Honor, if we
16 could get the testimony.
17 THE COURT: Objection sustained. You can't lead,
18 MR. NOVAK.
19 MR. NOVAK: Okay.
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. Why would that be unusual?
22 A. Because the airlines typically would pay for the student, or
23 the student would be making an investment in their own training in
24 order to become eligible to be hired by an airline.
25 Q. Okay. Did they tell you how much the training for

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1   Mr. Moussaoui cost?
2   A. The caller didn't know for sure, but said it was between 8-
3   and 9,000 dollars.
4   Q. Okay. And what, if any, information did you get about the
5   amount of hours or licensing that Mr. Moussaoui had?
6   A. It was low. It was less than 60 hours of flight time.
7   Q. All right. Did you receive information about what type of
8   plane it was that Mr. Moussaoui was pursuing the training on?
9   A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. What type of plane was that?
11 A. 747-400 series airliner.
12 Q. All right. And could you tell us, are you familiar with the
13 notion of a glass cockpit?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Could you tell us what the glass cockpit means to you and the
16 investigatory significance of that?
17 A. What it means to me as a pilot is the way the information is
18 displayed to the pilot in the cockpit is different. Older
19 airplanes, as compared to glass cockpit airplanes, have individual
20 gauges that display the information, critical information that the
21 pilot needs. When an airplane is said to have a glass cockpit, it
22 relies on a much smaller number of multi-function displays,
23 television screens in the cockpit.
24 Q. What, if any, impact did that have in terms of you in terms
25 of your thinking about whether criminality was afoot?

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1   A. My initial thought was that it's a simpler interface for a
2   relative novice, so that if someone had illegitimate purposes in
3   mind for wanting to receive the flight training, that would be an
4   ideal type of aircraft, because they wouldn't need as much
5   training and experience if they were to try and fly it.
6   Q. And what if any impact would the glass cockpit have on the
7   number of -- if there was criminality afoot, the number of
8   accomplices that would have to be involved?
9   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, that's an entirely
10 speculative question. He is not an expert in hijackings with
11 glass cockpits or not or anything else.
12 MR. NOVAK: This goes to why --
13 THE COURT: I think, both being an experienced pilot and
14 an investigator, this witness can testify about what it was about
15 a glass cockpit that would give him concern. And I believe that's
16 the way the question is phrased.
17 MR. NOVAK: That's what the purpose of the question is,
18 yes.
19 THE COURT: Overruled.
20 THE WITNESS: The other issue would pertain to the
21 number of crew members in the cockpit. Because the glass cockpit
22 airplanes typically have increased automation, they need fewer
23 people in the cockpit. And so in order to take over an airplane,
24 it would be the difference between having to overwhelm one or two
25 people as opposed to three or four.

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1   BY MR. NOVAK:
2   Q. All right. Now, in addition to that information, did you ask
3   for and receive any additional background information, identifiers
4   or anything like that from the defendant?
5   A. We were able to get his name, his date of birth, and the fact
6   that he was, said he lived in England and was from France, at
7   least initially.
8   Q. Now, once you got that information, did you open up a case,
9   an investigation?
10 A. We did.
11 Q. Could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen what kind of
12 case that you opened up?
13 A. Within probably 30 minutes of receiving that telephone call
14 we opened an intelligence investigation.
15 Q. As an agent that's assigned to investigate terrorism
16 organizations, could you tell us, is there more than one type of
17 case that you can open up as an investigator?
18 THE COURT: I think -- wait, MR. NOVAK. The better form
19 of that question was in that time period, because you are looking
20 at the 2001 time period.
21 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor, excuse me, you are right.
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. Back in August of 2001, could you tell us what type of
24 investigatory cases that you could open up?
25 A. During that time we had the intelligence investigation, which

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1   we did actually open on Mr. Moussaoui, and we also had a criminal
2   investigation.
3   Q. All right. I want to ask you to explain the difference.
4   Starting with the criminal, what is -- criminal investigation,
5   what was your goal back in 2001 if you were to open up just a
6   standard criminal investigation?
7   A. Like any other type of crime that the FBI investigates, the
8   goal of a criminal investigation pertaining to terrorism is to
9   collect evidence of a crime relating to international terrorism.
10 Q. And would that -- with a mind-set towards what?
11 A. Towards prosecution.
12 Q. All right. Now, contrast that with opening up an
13 intelligence investigation, what's, what do you do there?
14 A. An intelligence investigation is designed to generate
15 intelligence, intelligence whose goal would be to safeguard
16 national security.
17 Q. And by safeguarding national security, what does that mean?
18 What would you try to accomplish towards that goal?
19 A. We would attempt to use any information derived from a case,
20 an intelligence investigation, to strengthen our ability to deal
21 with threats to national security, whether it be espionage or
22 terrorists, ways to implement countermeasures to deny them their
23 objectives, without necessarily prosecuting anybody, but we could
24 still take steps, countermeasures to prevent them from
25 accomplishing their goals.

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1   Q. Explain to us, if you are not going to arrest somebody, how
2   is it that you could end up protecting national security during
3   your investigation? What are the types of things you can do?
4   A. We can use that intelligence to deny personnel access to the
5   United States, to certain classified information; we can use that
6   intelligence to implement countermeasures, security
7   countermeasures to make whole sectors safer. Any time information
8   comes of a threat, or intelligence comes regarding a threat, the
9   government, without arresting anyone, could implement
10 countermeasures which would counter that.
11 Q. Okay. Now, what if during the course of an investigation, an
12 intelligence investigation, you decide that you have gathered
13 enough information to charge somebody criminally? Are you allowed
14 to do that?
15 THE COURT: Were you allowed to do that, in that time
16 period?
17 MR. MAC MAHON: Time frame.
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. All my questions, I was going to say all my questions are
20 dedicated to that August of 2001 time period, okay?
21 A. Yes, sir. At the time we could, there was a mechanism by
22 which a criminal investigation and prosecution could occur, but
23 there were a number of steps that needed to be gone through before
24 that could happen.
25 Q. Could you explain to us what those steps were?

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1   A. There was a term called the wall. And the wall was supposed
2   to be a barrier between intelligence and criminal investigations
3   wherein information developed on the intelligence investigation
4   could not be supplied at the wall to those working the criminal
5   investigation.
6   Q. And what was the purpose of the wall?
7   A. To prevent abuse, to prevent people in the FBI and law
8   enforcement from utilizing information gathered under the auspices
9   of national security to be used to prosecute someone, without
10 safeguards and checks imposed on that.
11 Q. Are there a difference -- back in August of 2001, was there a
12 difference in terms of the safeguards that were in place in terms
13 of what you needed to do for oversight purposes?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Can we have some kind of foundation
15 here, Your Honor? We're just jumping right into a very complex
16 issue without establishing how he knows any of this, whether he
17 learned it before, whether it is something he has learned since or
18 anything else.
19 MR. NOVAK: He was an active agent.
20 THE COURT: Agent Samit, in the course of your being
21 trained to be an FBI agent, was this wall explained to you?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, it was.
23 THE COURT: Were the reasons for the wall explained to
24 you?
25 THE WITNESS: They were.

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1   THE COURT: Was that part of the standard procedure at
2   Quantico in training new agents?
3   THE WITNESS: It was not part of the procedure at
4   Quantico but at the subsequent follow-on in-services, there were
5   classes, extensive sessions, like a whole afternoon's worth given
6   on the explanation of the wall and the separation of the two types
7   of investigations.
8   THE COURT: And those special courses, were those for
9   agents who were specializing in the kind of work you were doing;
10 that is, counterterrorism.
11 THE WITNESS: They were not.
12 THE COURT: That's more than an adequate foundation.
13 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Now, we were talking about the wall there. Again, could you
16 explain to us the amount of safeguards that you had to, or
17 oversight that you had to go through, if you were working on the
18 intelligence side versus the criminal side?
19 A. We could -- the system was set up whereby there could be a
20 group of, separate group of agents within the same office who were
21 working criminal investigation against the same subject. It was
22 important, especially for the people working the intelligence case
23 against that person, to be very cognizant that they not share
24 information that was derived directly.
25 Instead what we were required to do during that time

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1   period was apply to our headquarters, who would then apply to the
2   Department of Justice for authority to do that.
3   Q. Okay. And was there a particular unit within the Department
4   of Justice that you needed approval from in order to switch the
5   case from an intelligence to a criminal case?
6   A. Not to switch, not to switch the cases.
7   Q. Or share the information.
8   A. It was the Office of Intelligence Policy Review, OIPR.
9   Q. And could you tell us what impact the wall had upon you in
10 terms of going to -- well, strike that. Let me step back.
11 In a criminal case, who are the attorneys that you would
12 normally deal with if you were to pursue a criminal investigation?
13 A. Assistant United States attorneys in the District of
14 Minnesota.
15 Q. And if you opened an intelligence case, were you able to deal
16 with the assistant United States attorneys that were located there
17 in Minneapolis?
18 A. No, that would fall under the heading of our needing to go to
19 the Office of Intelligence Policy Review first for authority.
20 Q. And they would have to approve that before you could share
21 information with them; is that correct?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Now, let's go back to Mr. Moussaoui, and with the information
24 that you received from the Pan Am School, you had indicated you
25 had received a number of biographical information about him. Did

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1   you share that with any of your fellow investigators assigned to
2   the JTTF?
3   A. I did. I shared it with Immigration and Naturalization
4   Service, Special Agent John Weess.
5   Q. And he was assigned to your task force?
6   A. Yes, sir.
7   Q. And he is a member of the INS; is that right?
8   A. That's correct.
9   Q. Could you tell us why it is that you shared that information
10 with Agent Weess?
11 A. We had indications that Mr. Moussaoui was, in fact, a foreign
12 national, and one of the initial checks we do is to determine
13 whether that person is legally in the United States, whether they
14 entered legally initially, and whether they remain in legal status
15 now.
16 Q. Okay. And did you determine his nationality?
17 A. We did.
18 Q. What was his nationality?
19 A. His nationality -- he was carrying a French passport.
20 Q. All right. And as a result, could you tell us what a legat
21 is in the world of the FBI?
22 A. A legat is an acronym that stands for legal attache. They
23 are FBI agents who are assigned to a number of U.S. embassies
24 around the world, and they serve as the FBI's liaison to that
25 government.

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1   Q. And back in August of 2001, did the FBI have a legat to the
2   country of France?
3   A. We did.
4   Q. And what was that person's name?
5   A. The legat's name was Enrique Camente.
6   Q. Well, who did -- did you deal with somebody in particular, an
7   assistant legat?
8   A. I did. I dealt with assistant legal attache, Jay Abbott.
9   Q. And when you found out that Mr. Moussaoui was French, did you
10 initiate a request for information from Mr. Abbott?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. You would get that sometime later; is that right?
13 A. That's correct.
14 Q. We will move on.
15 Now, in addition to finding out that he was French, did
16 Agent Weess determine, along with you, what Mr. Moussaoui's status
17 was in terms of being an immigrant into the United States?
18 A. He did. He was able to determine very quickly that
19 Mr. Moussaoui was out of status.
20 Q. Well, out of status means what?
21 A. Out of status means illegally in the United States.
22 Q. Okay. And how had he entered the United States?
23 A. Special Agent Weess's checks indicated Mr. Moussaoui entered
24 the United States on the visa waiver program.
25 Q. Could you tell us what the visa waiver program is?

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1   A. It is -- the visa waiver program is open to citizens,
2   passport holders from a variety of countries considered friendly
3   to the United States. If you are a passport holder from one of
4   those nations, you are --
5   Q. France being one of those nations?
6   A. France being one of those nations, you are eligible, in fact,
7   rather than having to go to a U.S. consular section and applying
8   for a visa to enter the United States, you can, with your passport
9   and round trip airline tickets, apply as you're on your flight for
10 the visa waiver program. It is essentially filling out a single
11 form.
12 Q. It is a convenience for those citizens of countries that are
13 friendly with us; is that right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Now, is there a limit on how long somebody can stay in the
16 United States who procures a visa pursuant to the visa waiver
17 program?
18 A. 90 days.
19 Q. And could you tell us what is the consequence of somebody who
20 stays longer than 90 days?
21 A. Subsequent to that 90-day period, they are subject to arrest
22 and deportation.
23 Q. And when somebody violates the 90-day rule, are they able to
24 get bond or to pursue a change in the status or anything like
25 that?

821

1   A. They are not.
2   Q. Now, when you did this check on Mr. Moussaoui, did you find
3   out when it was that he had entered the United States?
4   A. I did. Special Agent Weess's records indicated that he
5   entered on February 23rd of 2001.
6   Q. So then his 90 days would have expired on what day?
7   A. May 22nd, 2001.
8   Q. So as of August the 15th he was well over the 90-day time; is
9   that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. So you were able to arrest him if you wanted to; is that
12 correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Now, by the way, when somebody is arrested for that
15 violation, what happens to them? You told us they don't get bond,
16 but what's the ultimate result? What occurs to them?
17 A. They are deported to either their country of citizenship or
18 their country of origin.
19 Q. Now, on August the 15th then did you have an occasion to
20 speak with Clancy Prevost?
21 A. I did. I spoke with him on the telephone.
22 Q. All right. And could you tell us why it is that you spoke
23 with Mr. Prevost?
24 A. I spoke with Mr. Prevost because I had been directed to him.
25 I had been informed that he was Mr. Moussaoui 's ground school

822

1   instructor and, in fact, that he would be in a position to provide
2   me some additional background information that the initial callers
3   couldn't.
4   Q. So you telephoned him?
5   A. I did.
6   Q. And could you tell us what it is that Mr. Prevost told you
7   about Mr. Moussaoui at that time?
8   A. He told us, he told me that he considered Mr. Moussaoui to be
9   an unusual student. He related that he did believe that
10 Mr. Moussaoui was from France, that he spoke English with a French
11 accent. He explained that he had conducted two days of ground
12 school training with him and done one simulator session.
13 I decided that it would probably be the most efficient
14 to interview Mr. Prevost in person, and we agreed that we would
15 meet the next day for an interview.
16 Q. Okay. Before we do that, let me ask you a couple particular
17 questions, though, about your telephone contact with Mr. Prevost.
18 At any time did Mr. Prevost tell you anything about where it is
19 that he believed Mr. Moussaoui was staying?
20 A. He did. Mr. Prevost had information about Mr. Moussaoui's
21 hotel room.
22 Q. And where was that?
23 A. The Residence Inn in Eagan.
24 Q. Okay. And Eagan is where in relation to Minneapolis?
25 A. Eagan is a southern suburb of the Twin Cities.

823

1   Q. Did he give you any type of information about whether
2   Mr. Moussaoui was associated with any type of car?
3   A. He did. He was able to describe a sedan and give a partial
4   license plate and a color of the license.
5   Q. All right. Did he tell you the make of the car?
6   A. He did.
7   Q. What kind of car was that?
8   A. Subaru.
9   Q. All right. And did you learn from Mr. Prevost if
10 Mr. Moussaoui was traveling alone or with somebody else?
11 A. Mr. Prevost indicated that Mr. Moussaoui had a companion.
12 Q. And did he give you any further information about that
13 companion at the time?
14 A. He was able to describe him as a male, dark complected, with
15 dark hair.
16 Q. All right. And did you ask Mr. Prevost in terms of how long
17 Mr. Moussaoui was scheduled for training?
18 A. Mr. Prevost, because he had completed his ground school
19 portion, was uncertain as to his exact schedule. He was able to
20 refer me back to the school, but he said he had a number of
21 simulator sessions coming up in the next few days.
22 Q. Who did Mr. Prevost refer you to at the Pan Am Academy for
23 the schedule?
24 A. Alan McHale.
25 Q. Now, directing your attention to the next day, August the

824

1   16th of 2001, did your investigation continue with Agent Weess and
2   Agent Rapp going anywhere?
3   A. It did. Special Agents Weess and Rapp went to the Residence
4   Inn in Eagan and located the car that Mr. Prevost had described.
5   Q. And what kind of license plates were on that car?
6   A. Oklahoma.
7   Q. And was it reported to you, the license plate, from their
8   surveillance of the car?
9   A. It was.
10 Q. And did you then run the license plates to figure out who the
11 registered owner was of the vehicle?
12 A. I did.
13 Q. And who was the registered owner of the vehicle?
14 A. It came back with two registered owners, Abdullah and Hussein
15 al-Attas.
16 Q. And before that time, before you had run the license plates,
17 had you heard the names Hussein al-Attas or Abdullah al-Attas?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. And did the information that you received from running the
20 license plate tell you where the car was registered?
21 A. It did, to a post office box in Norman, Oklahoma.
22 Q. And before the running of the plates, did you ever have any
23 information that pertained to Oklahoma before then?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Now, after that, around noon on that day, the 16th, did you

825

1   have an occasion to go to the Pan Am Academy yourself?
2   A. Yes, sir, I did.
3   Q. Who did you speak with at the Pan Am Academy?
4   A. I spoke with Alan McHale.
5   Q. And at that time did he give you a schedule?
6   A. He did. He provided me a schedule for Mr. Moussaoui's
7   simulator training.
8   MR. NOVAK: If we can put Exhibit MN-617.3 on the
9   screen, which has already been introduced, Your Honor.
10 THE COURT: Yes.
11 BY MR. NOVAK:
12 Q. I am showing you that exhibit, Agent Samit. Do you recognize
13 that exhibit?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. What is that exhibit?
16 A. That was what was provided by Mr. McHale.
17 Q. All right. And is there anything of import on that schedule
18 for you in terms of the way your investigation proceeded?
19 A. I noted that there was a day off on Friday.
20 Q. Okay. What did that tell you?
21 A. Well, that was the Muslim Sabbath, and it was just a possible
22 indicator that the person who had scheduled that was a very
23 religious Muslim.
24 Q. Okay. Was there any other, anything else of import on that
25 schedule for you in terms of how you were to proceed with the

826

1   investigation?
2   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, if I may, in terms of forms
3   of these questions, I assume these questions are asked as to what
4   he assumed on the day that he saw this the first time. Because
5   the questions are a little broader than that. If we have that
6   time frame, I have no objection.
7   MR. NOVAK: I asked him when he got the schedule.
8   THE COURT: I assume that's what they meant. But just
9   so we're clear --
10 MR. NOVAK: I asked him when he got the schedule, Judge.
11 I thought that was pretty clear.
12 THE COURT: When he got the schedule.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. When you got the schedule there, Agent Samit, what else of
15 import was on there?
16 A. It also allowed me to predict fairly accurately when
17 Mr. Moussaoui would be traveling to and from his simulator
18 sessions.
19 Q. Was there any indication to you when that training would end?
20 A. Yes. His last day, his last simulator day was August 20th.
21 Q. Now, we can put that down. Thank you, Gerard.
22 Now, thereafter you spoke to Mr. McHale. By the way,
23 did you ask him how it was that Mr. Moussaoui paid for his
24 training?
25 A. I did.

827

1   Q. And what response did you get?
2   A. He told us that he paid in cash.
3   Q. Okay. And thereafter you met with Mr. McHale. Did you have
4   an occasion to interview Mr. Prevost in person?
5   A. I did. We responded to Mr. Prevost's hotel, as we had agreed
6   the day before, and we conducted an interview.
7   Q. Can you tell us what it is that Mr. Prevost told you at that
8   time?
9   A. Mr. Prevost was able to elaborate on his contact with
10 Mr. Moussaoui, to describe his interest in aviation but his utter
11 lack of experience and knowledge. He discussed the fact that they
12 talked about Mr. Moussaoui was a resident of the U.K., originally
13 from France.
14 When we asked Mr. Prevost what sparked his suspicion,
15 what triggered his suspicion, that's when he related a story about
16 Mr. Moussaoui's interest in the aircraft doors, the fact that he
17 was surprised to learn that they couldn't be opened in flight, and
18 then that led into the discussion about Mr. Moussaoui's religion.
19 Q. Okay. Now, at that point also was there any indication to
20 you from Mr. Prevost whether or not Mr. Moussaoui was going to
21 seek additional training beyond the simulator training that was
22 scheduled?
23 A. There was. Mr. Prevost indicated that based on what
24 Mr. Moussaoui had observed the previous night in the simulator,
25 that he felt that more training might be required.

828

1   Q. All right. And what if anything did that tell you in terms
2   of how long that you had to work with in terms of your
3   investigation, in terms of possible criminality here?
4   A. Mr. Prevost related that it might be, he might require a week
5   or two more of training. Dating that from August 20th when
6   Mr. Moussaoui's last scheduled simulator session was, we could
7   project ahead another 14 days or so to the end of the first week
8   of September.
9   Q. Okay. Now, after you interviewed Mr. Prevost, could you tell
10 us if you made any decisions about how to proceed with your
11 investigation?
12 A. We did. Special Agent Weess and I consulted and we decided
13 that on the basis of the suspicious behavior discussed, provided
14 to us by the school, that we were going to arrest Mr. Moussaoui.
15 Q. Okay. And why was that? You were going to arrest him for
16 what?
17 A. We were going to arrest him on his visa waiver overstay.
18 Q. But were you focused upon that or were you focused on other
19 concerns?
20 A. We were obviously focused on learning more about his plans.
21 And we saw that as a way of preventing him from getting any
22 simulator training, any meaningful aircraft training before we had
23 the opportunity to talk to him and sort things out.
24 Q. Did you ever consider the fact that he could have just been a
25 rich guy, taking training?

829

1   A. We did. However, upon discussing that with Mr. Prevost,
2   Special Agent Weess and I concluded he really didn't fit any of
3   the categories. He certainly didn't seem like just a rich guy.
4   He wasn't interested in logical things that just a vanity pilot
5   would be interested in.
6   Q. And did you make any arrangements in case that, when you did
7   have contact with him, that if you had determined that he was a
8   legitimate person?
9   A. We did. We, Special Agent Weess and I discussed in advance,
10 and our plan was that if he was just a legitimate person and we
11 could find no further reason for suspicion, we were going to
12 intercede with the school and attempt to get some of his money
13 refunded for him, because we didn't want to spoil the training; if
14 it was no harm, no foul, we didn't want to interfere with his life
15 and cost him money.
16 Q. Okay. Now, after you made that decision to arrest
17 Mr. Moussaoui, could you tell us where it is that you went to
18 accomplish that?
19 A. We went to his hotel.
20 Q. What hotel was that?
21 A. The Residence Inn in Eagan.
22 Q. And could you tell us approximately what time on August the
23 16th you arrived there?
24 A. Around 4 p.m.
25 Q. And who arrived there with you? Were you alone or with other

830

1   agents?
2   A. No, we had two teams of two agents each. It was myself,
3   Special Agent Steve Nordmann of Immigration and Naturalization,
4   and then Special Agents Weess and Rapp.
5   Q. And when you arrived there, did you make any efforts to
6   determine which room it was that Mr. Moussaoui was staying in?
7   A. We did. We located the vehicle previously and we knew where
8   it was parked, but we didn't know what room he was staying in. So
9   Special Agents Weess and Rapp interviewed the hotel clerk and
10 asked what room Mr. Moussaoui was staying in.
11 Q. Which room did you determine that was?
12 A. 1414.
13 Q. Now, if I could show the witness Exhibit Numbers MN-500.1
14 through MN-500.7.
15 THE COURT: Any objection?
16 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
17 THE COURT: All right. Those are all in.
18 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-500.1 through MN-500.7
19 were received in evidence.)
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. Maybe we can bring them up on the screen and we can take them
22 one at a time. It is 500.1.
23 Do you want to tell us, Agent Samit, what it is that
24 Exhibit MN-500.1 is that we're looking at right there?
25 A. That's the sign for the Residence Inn in Eagan.

831

1   Q. And, by the way, I gather back in August of 2001 there was no
2   snow? You guys don't get snow in August there, do you?
3   A. No, sir, we don't.
4   MR. MAC MAHON: We will stipulate to that, Your Honor.
5   (Laughter.)
6   BY MR. NOVAK:
7   Q. Can we go to the next photo, MN-500.2. What are we looking
8   at there, Agent Samit?
9   A. That's the lobby, the office where the front desk is at the
10 motel.
11 Q. 500.3, please, what are we looking at there, Agent Samit?
12 A. We're looking at the parking spot where Mr. al-Attas's
13 vehicle was located, right there (indicating), and we're looking
14 at the entrance to room 1414, right there (indicating).
15 Q. Okay. 500.4, please. What are we looking at there?
16 A. That's just another view of the entrance to room 1414.
17 Q. And 500.5?
18 A. That's another angle, the sidewalk outside room 1414.
19 Q. 500.6?
20 A. Closeup of the door.
21 Q. 500.7?
22 A. Another view of the door.
23 Q. Okay. We can take those down.
24 Now, directing your attention to about 5:10 p.m. that
25 day, August 16th of 2001, could you tell us, had you set up a

832

1   surveillance of where you depicted Mr. al-Attas's car being?
2   A. We did. We positioned both vehicles so that we could view
3   Mr. al-Attas's car and Special Agents Weess and Rapp could also
4   view room 1414.
5   Q. Okay. Could you tell us what happened at that time? Who was
6   the first person that came out?
7   A. Mr. al-Attas was the first person to leave the room.
8   Q. Which -- what was his first name?
9   A. Hussein al-Attas.
10 Q. And could you tell us when Mr. al-Attas came out of the room,
11 where did he go?
12 A. He proceeded directly to that 1991 Subaru and to the driver's
13 side.
14 Q. And did anybody else come out after him?
15 A. After a short delay, a second person came out that we
16 subsequently identified as Mr. Moussaoui.
17 Q. And when Mr. Moussaoui -- when you talk about a short delay,
18 how much longer are we talking about?
19 A. Probably 45 seconds.
20 Q. The person that you identified as Mr. Moussaoui, is he here
21 in the courtroom today?
22 A. He is.
23 Q. Could you identify him, please?
24 A. He is sitting right there (indicating).
25 MR. NOVAK: For the record the witness has identified

833

1   the defendant, please.
2   THE COURT: Any objection?
3   MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
4   THE COURT: All right. The record will so reflect.
5   BY MR. NOVAK:
6   Q. Now, when Mr. al-Attas came out of the room, can you tell us
7   what it is that occurred?
8   A. Mr. al-Attas came out of the room, went to the driver's side
9   of the vehicle and got in, at which point we moved in and blocked
10 his vehicle and asked him to step out of the vehicle.
11 Q. All right. And this is before Mr. Moussaoui had come out of
12 the room?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And, by the way, what did you learn about Mr. al-Attas in
15 terms of his nationality and such at that time?
16 A. When we interviewed him subsequently we learned he was a
17 Yemeni citizen and a resident of Saudi Arabia.
18 Q. And he had traveled to the United States on what kind of
19 visa?
20 A. A student visa.
21 Q. And that's different than the visa waiver program; is that
22 right?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. What's a student visa allow you to do?
25 A. A student visa allows you to remain in the United States for

834

1   the duration of the time that you are studying at an accredited
2   university.
3   Q. Now, at that time when you stopped Mr. al-Attas, did you
4   arrest him then?
5   A. We did not.
6   Q. Okay. What did you do with him?
7   A. We asked Mr. al-Attas to step out of the vehicle, which he
8   did. We took him away from the vehicle and gave him a pat-down
9   search, quickly determined he did not have any weapons.
10 Q. Could you tell us what is a pat-down search?
11 A. A pat-down search is a law enforcement search that agents and
12 police officers under the law are allowed to conduct to ensure
13 that the person that they are dealing with cannot access any
14 dangerous items, weapons of any kind.
15 Q. So you are patting down, are you patting down simply for
16 weapons or looking for other evidence at the same time?
17 A. We're looking for weapons at that point.
18 Q. It is just limited to that?
19 A. Dangerous items, yes, sir.
20 Q. Now, after you did the pat-down on Mr. al-Attas, how much
21 longer was it until Mr. Moussaoui came out?
22 A. Probably within 15 seconds.
23 Q. And I would like to show the witness Exhibit GX-2, please,
24 which is previously admitted. I think it is on the screen there,
25 Agent Samit. That's fine. Do you recognize that photograph?

835

1   A. I do.
2   Q. What does that photograph depict?
3   A. That's Mr. Moussaoui's appearance on August 16th, 2001.
4   Q. So he looked a little different then than he does today; is
5   that right?
6   A. Yes.
7   Q. What is the nature of the difference between then and now?
8   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, the jury can see the
9   difference between the two.
10 THE COURT: I think it is cumulative too. It has
11 already been asked of another witness.
12 MR. NOVAK: That's fine.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. Can you tell us, do you recall how Mr. Moussaoui was dressed
15 at that time?
16 A. He was dressed casually, contemporary American clothes, he
17 had cargo pants on, a T-shirt, leather jacket, and a ball cap.
18 Q. Could you tell us what happened? Did you approach
19 Mr. Moussaoui?
20 A. I did. My first thought was he looks just like an American.
21 But having seen him come out of room 1414, we reasoned it was him.
22 And Special Agent Nordmann and myself approached Mr. Moussaoui.
23 Q. Mr. Nordmann was the other INS agent; is that correct?
24 A. That's correct.
25 Q. When you and Agent Nordmann stopped or approached

836

1   Mr. Moussaoui, can you tell us what happened next?
2   A. We identified ourselves as federal agents and informed him
3   that he had an immigration issue and that we needed to discuss it
4   with him.
5   Q. And what if any response did you receive from Mr. Moussaoui?
6   A. Mr. Moussaoui immediately said he had some expensive flight
7   training he needed to get to and that he couldn't stop to talk.
8   Q. And so what happened?
9   A. We informed him that this was important and it was pressing
10 and that he needed to stay and talk to us.
11 Q. All right. What happened after that?
12 A. I asked Mr. Moussaoui for identification and also that he
13 allow me to look in his bag, again, a search pursuant to the
14 pat-down just to ensure there were no weapons or dangerous items.
15 Q. Okay.
16 A. Mr. Moussaoui presented me with a passport case and his bag.
17 Q. Okay. Could we show the witness, first of all, Exhibit
18 MN-600.2, please.
19 THE COURT: Any objection to that exhibit?
20 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: All right. It is in.
22 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-600.2 was received in
23 evidence.)
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. We also have it on the screen. Agent Samit, I am going to

837

1   ask you to hold up Exhibit MN-600.2. Can you tell us what it is?
2   A. Yes, sir. It is the passport case that Mr. Moussaoui handed
3   me.
4   Q. Now, was there anything inside the passport case?
5   A. There was. There was a French passport.
6   Q. I am going to ask you, do you have Exhibit MN-600.1, which we
7   would offer?
8   THE COURT: Any objection?
9   MR. MAC MAHON: No. I thought I already said no
10 objection.
11 THE COURT: 2 was the case.
12 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: 1 is the passport. It is in.
14 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-600.1 was received in
15 evidence.)
16 BY MR. NOVAK:
17 Q. What is that?
18 A. This is Mr. Moussaoui's French passport.
19 Q. Is that what he showed to you?
20 A. This was in the case, yes, sir, and I looked at it.
21 Q. Other than the passport, did he show you anything else?
22 A. Also in there was an I-94W form.
23 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-635.
24 THE COURT: Any objection?
25 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.

838

1   THE COURT: All right, it is in.
2   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-635 was received in
3   evidence.)
4   BY MR. NOVAK:
5   Q. Do you have that there? We will just bring it on the screen
6   there and if you can just tell us, what is that?
7   A. That's Mr. Moussaoui's I-94W form.
8   Q. Okay. Does that relate to that visa waiver program that you
9   were talking about?
10 A. It does.
11 Q. And stamped -- first of all, do you see his name on there?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. And stamped on there, is there any indication when it was
14 that he entered the country?
15 A. February 23rd, 2001.
16 Q. And does it have the expiration date stamped on there, when
17 he has got to leave this country?
18 A. It does. The expiration date or the departure date is
19 actually larger than the entry, and it is May 2nd -- May 22, 2001.
20 Q. We can put that aside. In addition to those items. Did
21 Mr. Moussaoui show you a driver's license from any country?
22 A. There was a driver's license from the United Kingdom also in
23 that case.
24 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-623, please.
25 THE COURT: Any objection?

839

1   MR. MAC MAHON: No objection.
2   THE COURT: It is in.
3   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-623 was received in
4   evidence.)
5   BY MR. NOVAK:
6   Q. We can bring it on the screen then, if that's okay. Do you
7   recognize that item, Agent Samit?
8   A. Yes, sir.
9   Q. What is that item?
10 A. That is a United Kingdom driver's license in Mr. Moussaoui's
11 name, and it bears his photo.
12 Q. Does it reveal also his age on there, as well, his date of
13 birth?
14 A. It does. His date of birth, his address.
15 Q. That date of birth being 5/30/68?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. And then what is the address that's provided on that driver's
18 license?
19 A. 23A Lambert Road in London.
20 Q. If we can put that aside, please. Additionally did
21 Mr. Moussaoui present you any type of financial document?
22 A. Also in that passport case was a statement from Arvest Bank
23 in Norman, Oklahoma.
24 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit Number MN-639.4, which we
25 would offer.

840

1   THE COURT: Any objection?
2   MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
3   THE COURT: All right. 639.4 is in.
4   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-639.4 was received in
5   evidence.)
6   BY MR. NOVAK:
7   Q. Perhaps if we can bring it on the screen then.
8   Can you tell us what it is we're looking at there, Agent
9   Samit?
10 A. That's a deposit agreement, upon the opening of a bank
11 account in Mr. Moussaoui's name from Arvest Bank, Norman,
12 Oklahoma.
13 Q. And can we zoom in there to the top there a little bit?
14 And does that, did that document indicate to you what
15 the initial opening deposit amount was?
16 A. It does, sir, right here, in the amount of $32,000.
17 Q. All right. And did it also identify an address for
18 Mr. Moussaoui?
19 A. It does.
20 Q. What is the address, please?
21 A. 1950 Goddard Avenue in Norman, Oklahoma.
22 Q. Thank you. We can put that down. By the way, those items,
23 the passport, the driver's license, the I-94 form and the bank
24 statement, where were they physically located when you received
25 those?

841

1   A. They were physically located within that passport case.
2   Q. Okay. Now, after Mr. Moussaoui showed you those items, what
3   is it -- what happened next?
4   A. We informed him that on the basis of his immigration problem,
5   we believed that he was in the United States illegally, that he
6   had stayed past his departure date.
7   Q. What was Mr. Moussaoui's response to that?
8   A. His response was that was not true, that was not correct, and
9   that, in fact, he had received, he had applied for and received an
10 extension that would have allowed him to stay in the United States
11 for longer.
12 Q. All right. Any further discussions about his need to attend
13 flight training?
14 A. He did. He mentioned it again, that he wanted to clear
15 things up very quickly because he had to get to flight training.
16 Q. All right. Did he tell you where these papers were that he
17 had that could clear this up?
18 A. He did. He said he had the documents in his hotel room.
19 Q. All right. So what did you do?
20 A. He invited us back to the hotel room to retrieve the
21 documents and Special Agent Nordmann and myself went with him.
22 Q. Is that room 1414?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. Could you tell us who all went into 1414 other than
25 yourselves and Agent Nordmann?

842

1   A. No one else.
2   Q. Well, how about Mr. Moussaoui?
3   A. Oh, right. Mr. Moussaoui opened the door for us and then --
4   Q. Did he have a key?
5   A. He did.
6   Q. Can you tell us when you walked into the room what it is that
7   you observed?
8   A. It was a larger hotel room suite with two beds, a
9   kitchenette, and a seating area.
10 Q. All right. And could you tell us which side of the room it
11 was that Mr. Moussaoui headed to then?
12 A. He headed to the left side of the room.
13 Q. Could you tell us what happened when you went over to the
14 left -- did you do anything for your own safety's sake when you
15 went in there?
16 A. We did. As we moved through the room, we kept Mr. Moussaoui
17 in sight. We stayed close to him, and we also ensured that any
18 areas he touched where he went, he wasn't attempting to access a
19 weapon.
20 Q. Now, had he consented to your entry into the hotel room?
21 A. Yes, sir, he did.
22 Q. If he had not consented into the hotel room, would you have
23 been able to go in there?
24 A. No.
25 Q. And why is that?

843

1   A. Under the Fourth Amendment, we don't have the right to search
2   without a warrant or his consent.
3   Q. Okay. Now, in this instance, though, he did consent; is that
4   right?
5   A. He did, yes.
6   Q. Could you tell us what happened then? You get in the room
7   and you said he headed to the left side. What happened next?
8   A. In the little kitchen area, the little kitchenette, there
9   were piled a number of documents. Mr. Moussaoui began going
10 through the pile of documents and shortly retrieved one of those.
11 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit MN-636, please, which we
12 would offer into evidence.
13 THE COURT: Any objection?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: It is in.
16 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-636 was received in
17 evidence.)
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. Perhaps we can put it on the screen. Maybe that would be the
20 easiest thing. If we can zip in there a little closer, can you
21 tell us what it is there, Agent Samit?
22 A. Yes, sir. This is his request to adjust status form. It is
23 an acknowledgment that Immigration had received a request to
24 adjust status from Mr. Moussaoui.
25 Q. For his visa waiver program?

844

1   A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
2   Q. Now, are you able to change that status?
3   A. No.
4   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, we concede he was out of
5   status, properly arrested for an immigration violation.
6   MR. NOVAK: That's not the point.
7   THE COURT: Well, I am going to overrule the objection
8   at this point. I assume this is going someplace.
9   MR. NOVAK: Right.
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Did Mr. Moussaoui indicate to you whether that document
12 allowed him to stay in the country?
13 A. He did. In fact, he was very insistent that that document
14 allowed him to remain in the United States.
15 Q. And was that correct?
16 A. No. It was not.
17 Q. All right. Now, as you went through these documents with
18 him, what else occurred then in the room?
19 A. Special Agent Nordmann reviewed the document, made the final
20 decision that Mr. Moussaoui was not in status, he informed him of
21 that, and we placed Mr. Moussaoui under arrest.
22 Q. Okay. Now, at the time that you arrested him, did you notice
23 if Mr. Moussaoui had any other bags or any other items that were
24 in the hotel room on the left side?
25 A. He did. The room was full of household goods, of clothing,

845

1   of bags, backpacks, suitcases, and I noticed a considerable
2   quantity of clothing and other materials like that on the left
3   side of the room.
4   Q. Okay. And at that time did you search those items?
5   A. No, we did not.
6   Q. Okay. Why not?
7   A. We asked Mr. Moussaoui for permission to search. He became
8   very upset at being informed he was being placed under arrest. He
9   again noted to us that he had expensive flight training, urgent
10 flight training he needed to attend. And I suggested to him that
11 maybe there was a reply to that, that he had received --
12 Q. Reply to what?
13 A. To his request to adjust status.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. That there might be other documents which would show that he
16 was, in fact, in status.
17 Q. And what was his response to that?
18 A. His response was no, you may not search my things, you can't
19 go through anything else. He was very insistent that we not do
20 that.
21 Q. Why didn't you search them anyhow?
22 A. Because we're not allowed to do that under the law.
23 Mr. Moussaoui was in custody. He had been patted down. He was,
24 he was subsequently searched, his person was searched, but under
25 the Fourth Amendment we're not allowed to search his room.

846

1   Q. Okay. Now, you said that you patted Mr. Moussaoui down. And
2   what if anything did you find on his person?
3   A. In his left pocket I found a dagger.
4   Q. All right. If we can show the Exhibit MN-501, please.
5   THE COURT: Any objection?
6   MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
7   THE COURT: All right.
8   MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photograph, MN-501P, which
9   we can bring up while the agent is looking at the dagger.
10 THE COURT: All right. And do you want the photograph
11 made a part of the evidence in this case?
12 MR. NOVAK: Please.
13 THE COURT: 501P is the photograph. Any objection?
14 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-501 and MN-501P were
17 received in evidence.)
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. Can you hold up Exhibit MN-501 and tell the jury what it is
20 you have?
21 A. This is the weapon I retrieved from the left front pocket of
22 Mr. Moussaoui.
23 Q. Could you open that up? Now, could you tell us, that's
24 obviously got a blade on it; is that right?
25 A. It does, yes, sir.

847

1   MR. NOVAK: Judge, I think Mr. Wood has a ruler. Can we
2   measure what the length of that blade is, please?
3   THE COURT: Do you want that shown to the jury more
4   closely? I'm not sure I want to -- how sharp is that blade?
5   THE WITNESS: It's pretty sharp, Your Honor.
6   MR. NOVAK: May Agent Samit step down?
7   THE COURT: No, I will have Mr. Wood do that. You can
8   open it when you get to the jury. I don't think I want you all
9   handling that, unless you have to.
10 Thank you, Mr. Wood.
11 MR. NOVAK: May I ask the agent to measure the length of
12 the blade then, Your Honor?
13 THE COURT: Yes.
14 THE WITNESS: The blade is two inches long.
15 BY MR. NOVAK:
16 Q. Now, could you tell us, Agent Samit, is there any use for
17 pilots to have a dagger on their person?
18 A. No.
19 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I'd object to that.
20 Moussaoui's not a pilot anyway, and it's arguing with the
21 witness --
22 THE COURT: That objection, without a long speech, I
23 will sustain I think at this point. Let's move this along.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. Now, in addition to that dagger, did you seize anything else

848

1   off of Mr. Moussaoui's person?
2   A. We did.
3   Q. What was that?
4   A. He was wearing a money belt.
5   Q. Okay. And did it have any money in it?
6   A. It did. It contained a little over $3,000 in cash.
7   Q. Okay. Did you seize that?
8   A. We did.
9   Q. After you seized the dagger and the $3,000 in cash, could you
10 tell us how did Mr. Moussaoui react?
11 A. That's when he became upset and that's when we had the
12 discussion about -- the inquiry about perhaps the document was
13 elsewhere in the room.
14 Q. Okay. And that's when he denied you your ability to search;
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Now, where was this pat-down with Mr. Moussaoui occurring at?
18 A. It occurred in the kitchen, kitchenette area.
19 Q. And then after you found those items, what did you do with
20 Mr. Moussaoui?
21 A. We took him outside.
22 Q. Okay. Where did you take him to?
23 A. We placed him in Special Agent Nordmann's INS vehicle.
24 Q. Okay. Now, where was Mr. al-Attas while this was going on?
25 A. Mr. al-Attas was outside with Special Agent Weess and Rapp.

849

1   Q. Okay. And when you exited the room with Mr. Moussaoui to put
2   him into the vehicle, did you have an occasion to see if Agent
3   Rapp was conducting a search of the Subaru?
4   A. In fact, he was. They were finishing up a search, consent
5   search of Mr. al-Attas's vehicle.
6   Q. And what if anything did you observe then?
7   A. Just as we brought Mr. Moussaoui out of the room, Special
8   Agent Rapp held up a knife that he had located on the passenger
9   side of that vehicle.
10 Q. Could we show the witness Exhibit MN-502, which we would
11 offer, as well as a photo that we have of the same item, MN-502P.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: All right.
15 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-502 and MN-502P were
16 received in evidence.)
17 BY MR. NOVAK:
18 Q. Agent Samit, I am asking you to look at 502 and then the
19 photograph, 502P. Can you tell us what that item is?
20 A. It is a Sheffield lock-blade knife.
21 Q. And where do you recognize that item from?
22 A. This is the knife that Special Agent Rapp held up.
23 Q. Where was it that -- you observed him seize that; is that
24 correct?
25 A. I did. Special Agent Rapp reached in, pulled this up off the

850

1   floor of the vehicle, turned to Mr. al-Attas and asked him if this
2   was his. Mr. Moussaoui, who was with us, said "no, it is mine."
3   Q. And what side of the vehicle was it that that came from?
4   A. The passenger's side.
5   MR. NOVAK: Okay. Could we ask Mr. Wood to be kind
6   enough to do the same thing, Your Honor, and show it to the jury?
7   THE COURT: Yeah. Am I correct this is a retractable,
8   or a blade that --
9   THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, it is a folding blade
10 knife.
11 THE COURT: Whereas the other did not fold?
12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
13 THE COURT: Go ahead, Mr. Wood.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Agent Samit, I am also going to ask you to measure what the
16 length of that blade is for us, please.
17 A. The blade on this knife is three inches long.
18 Q. Thank you, Agent Samit. You can put the ruler down. You can
19 put the knife aside as well.
20 Now, could you tell us, after that item was seized,
21 could you tell us what it is that you all did with Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. We placed him in the back of Special Agent Nordmann's car and
23 we seat-belted him in.
24 Q. What occurred at that time?
25 A. He became very upset, visibly upset, again mentioning the

851

1   need to get to flight training.
2   Q. Okay. And what did you do then?
3   A. I attempted to talk to him at that point, just to kind of
4   reassure him, calm him down, tell him that we could talk about
5   this. I informed him at that time that I was a pilot and tried to
6   engage him in a discussion of aviation.
7   Q. At any point was there any interaction at that point between
8   Mr. Moussaoui and Mr. al-Attas?
9   A. Mr. Moussaoui tried to say something to Mr. al-Attas, but we
10 asked him not to.
11 Q. Okay. And so nothing occurred then?
12 A. So nothing, there was no communication.
13 Q. What did you do with Mr. Moussaoui then?
14 A. Special Agents Nordmann and Rapp transported Mr. Moussaoui to
15 Immigration, to their office.
16 Q. Where is Immigration located?
17 A. In Bloomington, Minnesota, another suburb, southern suburb.
18 Q. Of Minneapolis?
19 A. Of the Twin Cities, yes, sir.
20 Q. And what did you and Agent Weess do?
21 A. Special Agent Weess and I accompanied Mr. al-Attas back into
22 the room because Mr. al-Attas was going to produce some documents
23 for Agent Weess that would prove that he was in status, he was
24 legally in the United States.
25 Q. And during this time is Mr. al-Attas in custody, is he

852

1   handcuffed or anything like that?
2   A. He is not.
3   Q. Can you tell us what occurred then?
4   A. We went back into the room, Mr. al-Attas opened the door, we
5   went into the room with him and Special Agent Weess. And I again,
6   taking precautions, stayed close by Mr. al-Attas. We conducted a
7   quick review of anything that Mr. al-Attas -- a quick search of
8   anything Mr. al-Attas wanted to access for weapons and dangerous
9   items, until Mr. al-Attas was able to retrieve documents which
10 proved to Special Agent Weess that he was legally in the United
11 States.
12 Q. And what side of the room was it that Mr. al-Attas directed
13 you to in that regard?
14 A. To the right side.
15 Q. Did he make any comment about whose items were on the left
16 side?
17 A. He did. He indicated Mr. Moussaoui's items were on the left.
18 Q. So you all moved to the right side of the room then?
19 A. We did.
20 Q. Did you do anything with Mr. Moussaoui's stuff on the left
21 side?
22 A. We did not.
23 Q. Could you tell us what you did on the right side then with
24 Mr. al-Attas?
25 A. Once he accessed the document that proved he was, in fact,

853

1   legally in the United States, to Special Agent Weess's
2   satisfaction, we asked Mr. al-Attas if he would consent to a
3   search of his belongings.
4   Q. Before we get to that search, what exactly was it that Mr.
5   al-Attas showed you all that indicated that he was lawfully in the
6   United States?
7   A. He showed us a transcript in his name that had indicated he
8   was in classes through that year, and he informed us that he was
9   planning on registering for classes for the coming semester as
10 well.
11 Q. And did you all find that to be acceptable then or not?
12 A. Special Agent Weess did, yes.
13 Q. Would you later on find out that that was not an accurate
14 transcript?
15 A. We would. We would later learn he was lying and falsified
16 the transcript.
17 Q. Now, after he showed you a transcript and you decided -- at
18 that point, though, you decided he was lawfully here; is that
19 right?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. So you didn't arrest him; is that right?
22 A. That's correct.
23 Q. So can you tell us what occurred then with Mr. al-Attas?
24 A. Mr. al-Attas consented to be interviewed by myself. And he
25 and I sat down and conducted an interview while Special Agent

854

1   Weess executed the consent search of his belongings.
2   Q. Consent search of what?
3   A. Of Mr. al-Attas's belongings.
4   Q. Did you ask Mr. al-Attas to consent search for
5   Mr. Moussaoui's items that were there?
6   A. No.
7   Q. Why is that?
8   A. Because he indicated that they were Mr. Moussaoui's items.
9   Mr. Moussaoui had indicated they were Mr. Moussaoui's items. And
10 he had denied us permission to search his items.
11 Q. So Mr. al-Attas didn't have the lawful ability to do it?
12 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
13 Q. And so could you tell us, did -- you began interviewing
14 Mr. Moussaoui, is that right?
15 A. Mr. al-Attas.
16 Q. Or Mr. al-Attas, excuse me, Mr. al-Attas?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. Can you tell us what it is Mr. al-Attas told you at that
19 time?
20 A. Mr. al-Attas described his own background and described his
21 reasons for being in the United States.
22 Q. Which were what? Tell us what those were.
23 A. He was a Yemeni citizen, born in Saudi Arabia to Yemeni
24 parents, he had older brothers who were engineers. He indicated
25 that he had come to the United States for the purpose of getting

855

1   his Bachelor's degree, attending university, and that he was
2   currently doing that at the University of Oklahoma.
3   Q. Did he tell you, did he provide for you an address where he
4   was residing at that time?
5   A. He did.
6   Q. And what address was that?
7   A. 209A Wadsack in Norman, Oklahoma.
8   Q. And that address of 209A Wadsack Drive in Norman, was that
9   the first time you had heard of that address?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. Did he also give you a telephone number for that address?
12 A. He did.
13 Q. Off the top of your head, do you remember it?
14 A. I don't. It was a 405 area code.
15 Q. All right. Did he tell you what his goal was at -- down at
16 the University of Oklahoma?
17 A. He said that he eventually wanted to obtain at least his
18 Bachelor's degree in mathematics.
19 Q. All right. Did he indicate to you, did he describe himself
20 as an American or what?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Or any thoughts about that?
23 A. No, he didn't. In contrast, in my experience to a lot of
24 students, his future plans did not include remaining in the United
25 States. In fact, he said that he wanted to finish his degree and

856

1   that he did not consider himself an American, and he did not mix
2   in American culture at all.
3   Q. All right. Did he tell you where it is that he had first
4   met, or when it was that he had first met Mr. Moussaoui?
5   A. He said he met him a few months previous.
6   Q. Did he tell you where he had met him at?
7   A. He did, at the Anoor Mosque in Norman, Oklahoma.
8   Q. Did he tell you if their relationship had changed in any way,
9   approximately one month before you arrested Mr. Moussaoui?
10 A. He did, that a month prior they had become roommates.
11 Q. And do you want to explain to the jurors how it is -- what it
12 is Mr. al-Attas told you about that?
13 A. Mr. al-Attas stated that his previous roommate had gotten
14 married and asked him to move out because of that. So he
15 approached a friend, Mukram Ali, another student at the University
16 of Oklahoma. When he approached Mr. Ali with a request that he be
17 allowed to live with him, Mr. Ali told him that Mr. Moussaoui had
18 similarly made the same request and that it was okay, but all
19 three of them would be roommates.
20 Q. Did he describe for you Mr. Moussaoui's religious practices?
21 A. He did.
22 Q. Could you tell us what those were?
23 A. He characterized him as a religious Muslim.
24 Q. Did he talk to you about any pronouncements that
25 Mr. Moussaoui had made about Israel or Palestine or anything about

857

1   that?
2   A. He did. He informed us Mr. Moussaoui did not like the
3   Israelis, he was very unhappy that -- what the Israelis were doing
4   and still receiving favorable press in the United States for it.
5   Q. Did Mr. al-Attas repeat to you any discussions that, or any
6   statements that Mr. Moussaoui had said to him about the
7   mistreatments of Muslims around the world?
8   A. He did. In fact, Mr. al-Attas informed us that
9   Mr. Moussaoui, one of the things that was a constant theme in his
10 discussion with Mr. al-Attas and with others, was that it is the
11 duty of Muslims to understand the suffering of other Muslims all
12 over the world.
13 Q. All right. And were there any discussions that Mr. al-Attas
14 repeated to you about Mr. Moussaoui's views of -- about whether it
15 is okay to harm civilians?
16 A. Yes. He said that in defense of Muslims, it is okay to harm
17 civilians.
18 Q. Did you ask Mr. al-Attas any further questions about whether
19 anybody could be harmed, according to Mr. Moussaoui's statements?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. Do you want to explain to us what it is that Mr. al-Attas
22 told you?
23 A. He told us that in order -- that it would be perfectly
24 acceptable to harm civilians in a Jihad. He said that if
25 Mr. Moussaoui believed that someone was an unbeliever, a

858

1   non-Muslim, was harming Muslims, that he would work against them.
2   He discussed Mr. Moussaoui's statements that it was the
3   duty of Muslims to train to fight and, in fact, he even quoted a
4   prophet. He gave us the name of a prophet, Omar Ibn Khattab, the
5   companion prophet, who was a person who said that you should train
6   your children to swim, to ride, to fight the unbelievers.
7   Q. All right. Back in August of 2001, did you know what a
8   fatwah was?
9   A. I did.
10 Q. Do you want to tell us what you believed a fatwah to be?
11 A. A fatwah is a religious pronouncement from a Muslim scholar,
12 a cleric.
13 Q. And did you have any discussions with Mr. al-Attas about
14 fatwahs?
15 A. We did. We asked if there were any fatwahs that
16 Mr. Moussaoui subscribed to or had ever discussed. And he said
17 that he couldn't name any specifically but that he knew that
18 Mr. Moussaoui did read fatwahs, that he accessed them on-line, in
19 fact.
20 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. al-Attas about
21 Mr. Moussaoui's previous flight training?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. Could you tell the folks what that was?
24 A. Mr. al-Attas told us that he was taking flight training in
25 Norman, Oklahoma, that he had been doing that for quite some time,

859

1   and that he had come to Minnesota to gain additional flight
2   training.
3   Q. Did he tell you when it is that they had arrived in
4   Minnesota?
5   A. He did.
6   Q. When was that?
7   A. That previous weekend.
8   Q. And which would have been what day?
9   A. The 11th and 12th.
10 Q. Okay. And did he tell you when it is that he, Mr. al-Attas,
11 planned to go home?
12 A. He said that Mr. Moussaoui had mentioned to him that there
13 would possibly be a requirement for additional flight training and
14 that they would need to stay later.
15 Q. All right. And did you have any discussions about who was
16 paying for this trip from Oklahoma up to Minnesota?
17 A. We asked Mr. al-Attas that. He said that originally they had
18 agreed to split the costs, but that after the trip began,
19 Mr. Moussaoui decided that he would pay for the lodging and the
20 fuel and that Mr. al-Attas would only have to pay for his own
21 food, his meals.
22 Q. Now, did you question Mr. al-Attas about the source of
23 Mr. Moussaoui's money or how much money he had?
24 A. We did.
25 Q. What was that?

860

1   A. Mr. al-Attas told us that he had seen Mr. Moussaoui in
2   possession of over $10,000, and that he was aware he had received
3   it from overseas but that he had no additional details.
4   Q. Did you try to get more details about that money?
5   A. We did. We asked Mr. al-Attas if he had received it, you
6   know, what mechanism by which he had received it, and Mr. al-Attas
7   did not know.
8   Q. All right. Did he tell you whether or not Mr. Moussaoui
9   discussed such things or not?
10 A. He did. Whenever we asked Mr. al-Attas questions, he was
11 unable to answer, he cited Mr. Moussaoui's extreme secretiveness
12 and, in fact, he told us that when we identified Mr. Moussaoui to
13 him by that name, that that was the first he had ever heard of it.
14 He didn't even know, claimed not to even know Mr. Moussaoui's
15 name.
16 Q. What name did Mr. al-Attas tell you that he knew
17 Mr. Moussaoui by?
18 A. He stated that he referred to him as Shaqil.
19 Q. Okay. Did he indicate to you how much longer he expected
20 Mr. Moussaoui to be in Minneapolis to get that flight training?
21 A. He said that Mr. Moussaoui had told him that they were
22 probably going to have to stay another one to two weeks, but that
23 they were going to move to a cheaper hotel because of the
24 additional stay.
25 Q. Did Mr. al-Attas tell you what their plans were after being

861

1   in the Twin Cities up there?
2   A. Mr. al-Attas said that they were looking to travel around the
3   United States.
4   Q. Did he give you particular locations that he said they
5   intended to go to?
6   A. He did, New York and Denver.
7   Q. Okay. Did he tell you why they were going to go to New York
8   and to Denver?
9   A. New York to see the sights and Denver because Mr. Moussaoui
10 told him that there was some additional business with United
11 Airlines that he needed to take care of.
12 Q. Now, while you were having this conversation with Mr.
13 al-Attas, did either you or Agent Weess come across a will?
14 A. I came across a will.
15 Q. Okay. And where did you find that will?
16 A. That was sitting on the table between Mr. al-Attas and
17 myself.
18 Q. And whose will was that?
19 A. Mr. al-Attas informed me that it was his.
20 Q. And could you describe for us what the will looked like and
21 what it --
22 A. It was in a brown mailing envelope, very new envelope, it
23 hadn't been worn. Inside the envelope were two sheets -- was a
24 sheet of notebook paper. Upon pulling the paper out of the
25 envelope, I asked Mr. al-Attas, is this yours? He answered that

862

1   it was. Upon pulling the sheet out, I could see that there was
2   writing in Arabic on the sheet.
3   Q. All right. The prompting of that -- did that will prompt you
4   to have any further questions then with Mr. al-Attas?
5   A. It did. He informed me that it was his last will and
6   testament. I asked him why he had such a document. He told me it
7   was common for Muslims to make that up before going on a journey,
8   to carry a document like that.
9   I asked him then if he was planning on going on Jihad.
10 Q. Do you want to explain to us what the word "Jihad" means?
11 A. Jihad is a word that means holy war. It is frequently what
12 terrorists and Muslim extremists will use to justify, to tell
13 people that they are going to embark on some campaign, some
14 fighting of some kind.
15 Q. When you asked that question of Mr. al-Attas, what did he
16 respond to you about Jihad?
17 A. He paused. He said "Jihad," he repeated that. And I: Said
18 yes, it means holy war. He laughed and said: I know what it
19 means. And he said: Yes, yes, I would consider going on Jihad
20 some day, but right now, right now I have to finish school.
21 Q. Okay. Now, as a result of the information that you received
22 from Mr. al-Attas and the previous information that you had
23 received from the flight school, Mr. Prevost and such, do you have
24 any view of what Mr. Moussaoui's religious views were then?
25 A. Yes, sir.

863

1   Q. And what was that?
2   A. That he was at least an Islamic extremist who had espoused or
3   discussed violence.
4   Q. And now -- by the way, excuse me, when you were going through
5   Mr. al-Attas's items or Agent Weess was, did you all find a
6   Pakistan visa?
7   A. We found an application for a Pakistan visa.
8   Q. Okay. Do you want to tell us about that?
9   A. We, Special Agent Weess located an application for a visa to
10 enter Pakistan among Mr. al-Attas's effects, he stated that that
11 was his and that he was planning on going to Pakistan in the near
12 future.
13 Q. "He" being Mr. al-Attas?
14 A. Correct.
15 Q. Did he make any mention about whether the person that he knew
16 as Shaqil had helped him with that application?
17 A. He did. He told us that Shaqil, because he was experienced
18 and had traveled around the world, was assisting him in completing
19 that visa application.
20 Q. Now, while you were in the room with Mr. al-Attas, did you
21 receive a phone call from somebody about what to do with
22 Mr. Moussaoui's bags, the seven, eight bags that were on the left
23 side of the room?
24 A. Yes, sir, we did.
25 Q. What happened?

864

1   A. Upon learning, Mr. Moussaoui's learning that he was not going
2   to be returning to the hotel in the next few days, that he was
3   going to be under arrest, he directed that his items, that he gave
4   permission for his items to be removed back to the Immigration
5   office.
6   Q. Be removed, does that mean be searched or just to be
7   transported?
8   A. No, it just means to be transported.
9   Q. Okay. Now -- and did you do that?
10 A. We did, with Mr. al-Attas's help, we carried all of the items
11 which he identified as Mr. Moussaoui's out to the vehicle.
12 Q. All right. And were they ultimately then transported to the
13 INS building?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. And were they stored there?
16 A. They were.
17 Q. All right. Now, when you were with Mr. al-Attas, as you
18 testified already, he had indicated to you that he lived with
19 Mukram Ali and Mr. Moussaoui would stay there as well. Is that
20 right?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. And did you at any time ask Mr. al-Attas to consent to a
23 search of the address in Oklahoma, 209 Wadsack Road?
24 A. No, sir, we didn't.
25 Q. And can you tell us why it is that you did not do that?

865

1   A. Because it wasn't his apartment.
2   Q. "His" being whose?
3   A. It was not Mr. al-Attas's apartment.
4   Q. Whose apartment was it?
5   A. It was Mukram Ali's.
6   Q. Was there any other reason why you decided not to do that?
7   A. We didn't want to approach either Mr. al-Attas about it
8   because he had no standing, or Mr. Ali, for fear that if there
9   were items there, if there was evidence there, we didn't want it
10 to be destroyed.
11 Q. Now, when you got all the -- after you got all the bags of
12 Mr. Moussaoui to transport back to INS, what did you do with Mr.
13 al-Attas?
14 A. We left Mr. al-Attas in the hotel room.
15 Q. He was free to go; is that right?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Did you make any requests for him to report at a later date?
18 A. We did. We requested that he report at 9 a.m. the next day,
19 and he agreed to do that.
20 Q. Okay. And where was he to report to?
21 A. To the Immigration and Naturalization Service office.
22 Q. All right. So did you leave the hotel then at that point?
23 A. We did.
24 Q. And where did you go to?
25 A. We returned to the Immigration office.

866

1   Q. And who was at the Immigration office? This is the one in
2   Bloomington; is that right?
3   A. Yes, sir.
4   Q. Who was at that office when you got there?
5   A. Mr. Moussaoui was in custody there and had finished being
6   booked in. Special Agents Weess and Rapp were there and they had
7   supplied Mr. Moussaoui with dinner.
8   Q. Okay. What time was this? You are talking about dinner.
9   What time of the night now was it that you had come across
10 Mr. Moussaoui back at the INS office?
11 A. Probably a little after 7 p.m.
12 Q. Okay. And directing your attention to about 9:30 then, did
13 you have an occasion then to commence an interview with him?
14 A. We did. We conducted a further review of the items. We kind
15 of compared notes. We spoke with Special Agents Nordmann and Rapp
16 and around 9:30 we commenced an interview with Mr. Moussaoui.
17 Q. And before you started interviewing him, did you have an
18 occasion to give him what is commonly known as his Miranda rights?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. And were those rights in writing on a form or were they just
21 oral?
22 A. They were -- no, they were both oral and in writing on a
23 form, which both Special Agent Weess and myself signed after
24 Mr. Moussaoui.
25 Q. If we can show the witness Exhibit GX-2.1, please.

867

1   THE COURT: Any objection?
2   MR. MAC MAHON: The waiver form, Your Honor?
3   THE COURT: Yeah.
4   MR. MAC MAHON: No objection.
5   THE COURT: All right.
6   MR. NOVAK: I offer it into evidence.
7   THE COURT: 2.1 is in.
8   (Government's Exhibit No. GX-2.1 was received in
9   evidence.)
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. Could you tell us what it is we're looking at there, the
12 Exhibit GX-2.1, please?
13 A. This is the Immigration and Naturalization Service advice of
14 rights form.
15 Q. Okay. Is that signed by Mr. Moussaoui?
16 A. It is.
17 Q. And you have the date and the time as well; is that right?
18 A. That's correct.
19 Q. And it indicates to you that he was willing to make a
20 statement freely and voluntarily to you; is that right?
21 A. It indicates, yes, sir, it indicates to me that he had
22 received all those Miranda warnings above, that we read them to
23 him, he read them and then signed.
24 Q. Let me ask you this: Before you all gave the Miranda rights
25 on that form, do you know if he was given any administrative INS

868

1   warnings before then?
2   A. He was. As part of the booking process, Special Agent
3   Nordman supplied him with administrative advice of rights.
4   Q. Is there any difference between the INS rights and the
5   Miranda rights?
6   A. Under administrative proceedings for Immigration, although he
7   has a right to an attorney, Immigration doesn't pay for an
8   attorney in that case.
9   Q. All right. And in addition to the INS rights and the Miranda
10 warning rights -- which we can take down, by the way, thank you --
11 was there any discussion about his consular notification rights?
12 A. There was.
13 Q. Can you explain to the jurors what exactly, what are consular
14 notification rights?
15 A. The consular section is obviously a country's representative
16 in foreign countries as part of an embassy. When the FBI or
17 immigration arrests citizens of foreign countries, one of our
18 protocols is to give them the opportunity that their consular
19 section be notified, that the FBI or that Immigration has arrested
20 a citizen of your country, here is his name and his information.
21 Q. And is there a benefit to somebody who is arrested to
22 exercise those rights?
23 A. Absolutely.
24 Q. What is the benefit to them?
25 A. It allows them to receive any assistance that their country

869

1   is willing to give.
2   Q. And is there any downside for somebody to exercise those
3   rights?
4   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, it is consular rights. His
5   opinion as to whether somebody might find them upsides or
6   downsides is not relevant. He didn't take them.
7   THE COURT: Well, I don't think that's a proper
8   objection. And I'm going to overrule it. Go ahead.
9   BY MR. NOVAK:
10 Q. Is there a downside of somebody exercising their consular
11 rights?
12 A. I can't think of a downside for a person who is not, who is
13 not known of by their, the host government as a criminal or
14 terrorist.
15 MR. MAC MAHON: I move to strike that answer, Your
16 Honor. He asked a broad question, whether it is an upside or
17 downside, and we get a conclusion instead of a yes or no.
18 THE COURT: I think this is an explanation for the
19 answer. I am going to overrule the objection. Go ahead.
20 BY MR. NOVAK:
21 Q. And if somebody -- well, strike that. I will just move on.
22 Now, after he was given all those various rights, did
23 Mr. Moussaoui -- did you begin interviewing Mr. Moussaoui?
24 A. We did. After Mr. Moussaoui refused his consular
25 notification, we began the interview.

870

1   Q. Okay. And who is the "we" that was interviewing him?
2   A. Special Agent Weess and myself, the same two signatories to
3   the advice of rights form.
4   Q. Before you started interviewing him, did you have any
5   discussions with him about the need to tell the truth?
6   A. We did. It was explained to Mr. Moussaoui that we were
7   federal agents, that we were discussing not just his immigration
8   status at this point but his reasons for being in the United
9   States and for asking for flight training, and we advised him of
10 the need to be able to tell the -- the need to tell the truth.
11 Q. And was Mr. Moussaoui cooperative at that time?
12 A. He was.
13 Q. Did you have further discussions about his need to get back
14 to his training?
15 A. He did. In fact, we cited that as key to helping us be able
16 to understand his reasons for being in the United States and
17 wanting flight training. He, again, repeated that he was very
18 eager to clear things up because of his flight training.
19 Q. Now, you interviewed him from 9:23 p.m. to approximately what
20 time?
21 A. A little bit after 11 p.m.
22 Q. And could you tell us, first of all, how it is that the
23 interview started and what if anything Mr. Moussaoui told you
24 about his view of immigration people?
25 A. Mr. Moussaoui explained some previous difficulty he had with

871

1   immigration in the U.K. and indicated to us for this reason he did
2   not trust immigration authorities.
3   Q. Now, could you tell us how it is that the interview then
4   began?
5   A. It began with our requesting that he lay out his background.
6   Q. Okay. And what did he tell you?
7   A. He told us that he was a French citizen, born in France, that
8   he had been educated in the United Kingdom and that he had lived
9   there for the last several years.
10 Q. Did he tell you when it was he had come to the United States?
11 A. He did. He confirmed for us that it was in February of 2001.
12 Q. Did he tell you why he had come to the United States?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. What did he say?
15 A. He stated that he had come to the United States to take
16 flight training to become a pilot.
17 Q. Did he tell you where he initially took that flight training?
18 A. He did.
19 Q. Where was that?
20 A. Airman Flight School in Norman, Oklahoma.
21 Q. Did he tell you the number of hours -- what type of training
22 that he had taken down in Norman, Oklahoma?
23 A. Yes, sir, he did.
24 Q. What kind of training was that?
25 A. He had taken training pursuant to obtaining his private

872

1   pilot's license.
2   Q. Okay. On what type of plane?
3   A. Cessna 150.
4   Q. The kind of planes you used to fly?
5   A. Yes, sir.
6   Q. Did he report to you approximately how many hours he had had
7   down there?
8   A. He did.
9   Q. How many hours?
10 A. A little bit more than 50, 55, 56.
11 Q. Did he tell you if he had achieved getting his PPL license?
12 A. He told us he had not.
13 Q. Okay. Did he tell you if he had taken any tests at all,
14 though?
15 A. He told us that he took the written test but had failed it
16 and not gone back to take the practical test.
17 Q. Did he tell you why he had not gone back to take the
18 practical test?
19 A. He did not. He just said he wasn't progressing and he didn't
20 feel ready. But I also knew, in my experience, that you couldn't
21 take the practical test until you had passed the written test.
22 Q. Okay. Now, did he tell you why it was that he had gone to
23 Airman to take the flight training?
24 A. He said that Airman specialized in training foreign students
25 and that he had chosen not to do it elsewhere, as in back home in

873

1   the U.K., because of the cost associated with that.
2   Q. Did he explain to you why it was that he had not completed
3   his training at Airman?
4   A. He did. He said that the instructors who were assigned to
5   fly with him were too young, too inexperienced, and that they
6   hadn't been able to teach him.
7   Q. Okay. Did he tell you why it was that he had contacted Pan
8   Am and paid that $8,300 to take this simulator training?
9   A. He said he just wanted to enjoy the 747-400 series, that he
10 thought since he had been struggling with little airplanes, the
11 general aviation airplanes, that he might enjoy and have benefit
12 from flying larger airplanes.
13 Q. All right. For his personal enjoyment, basically?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Did he tell you he was a terrorist at that time?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. Did he tell you he was taking the training for terroristic
18 purposes?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Could we bring on the screen Exhibit GX-1, which is a
21 Statement of Facts, paragraph 9.
22 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I think with this witness
23 we're going to get the lies out, if he wants to. I think he just
24 needs to ask him what Mr. Moussaoui said, not --
25 THE COURT: That objection I am going to sustain.

874

1   MR. NOVAK: But, Judge, the follow-up question, though,
2   is what is the impact of him not telling that to the interviewer.
3   THE COURT: Let's confine the questioning to this
4   witness, as to what this witness did with the defendant.
5   MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor.
6   BY MR. NOVAK:
7   Q. Now, at that point did Mr. Moussaoui also explain to you what
8   his address -- where he resided before he came to the United
9   States?
10 A. He did. He confirmed the address on his U.K. driver's
11 license, 23A Lambert Road in London as being his residence in the
12 U.K.
13 Q. Did he tell you at any point whether he had resided at a
14 guesthouse in Kandahar?
15 MR. MAC MAHON: Same objection, Your Honor. The
16 question is what did this man tell this person when he was
17 interviewed, not what he withheld from him. The lies are the
18 question he was asked and answered, not evidence that has been
19 withheld. If he asked him did you go stay at a guesthouse in
20 Kandahar, then it would be a fair question. Otherwise, it is not.
21 THE COURT: I am going to continue to sustain that line
22 of objection.
23 MR. NOVAK: All right, Your Honor.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. Did you ask the defendant about his income?

875

1   A. Yes, sir, I did.
2   Q. Could you tell us what it is that the defendant told you
3   about where he had gotten his money?
4   A. He told us that he had worked here and there at various jobs
5   in the United Kingdom, that he had even before residing in the
6   United Kingdom, he had worked since the age of 14 and that he also
7   received some funding from family and associates.
8   Q. All right. At any point did he discuss with you working in
9   the world of marketing?
10 A. He did.
11 Q. Could you tell us what it is that he told you about that?
12 A. He told us that he was employed at a company called NOP in
13 the United Kingdom. He couldn't remember what NOP stood for, but
14 he remembered N was "national." He said he had worked for them in
15 marketing.
16 Q. Did you press him on any type of details about the NOP?
17 A. We did. We asked what his income had been, what his salary
18 had been, what his job description was.
19 Q. And could you tell us why it is that you were -- first of
20 all, did you get a response to that?
21 A. We did not.
22 Q. And what did he tell you?
23 A. He said he couldn't remember, that he hadn't paid taxes in
24 the year 2000, and that he couldn't remember the answer to those
25 questions.

876

1   Q. Could you tell us why it is that you pressed him on those
2   types of details?
3   A. Because as a terrorism investigator, we're always very
4   interested in money. It is a key element of any plan.
5   Q. All right. During the interview, were there any discussions
6   with Mr. Moussaoui about an Indonesian company?
7   A. He told us, in fact, that he had been employed with an
8   Indonesian company attempting to do telephone cards.
9   Q. Okay. And did he tell you what happened with that?
10 A. He just said that the business did not work out.
11 Q. All right. Now, did you ask him at any time how much money
12 he was making on a yearly basis or within the last year or two?
13 A. We did.
14 Q. And could you tell us what it is that he told you about that?
15 A. Well, that's when he said he hadn't paid taxes in the year
16 2000 and that, in fact, he couldn't give us an estimate of how
17 much money he made.
18 Q. And did you ask him at any point about this family business
19 or anything that he was associated with?
20 A. We did.
21 Q. Did you press him on trying to get more details or anything?
22 A. We tried to get details out of it. At length he told us in
23 fact, that it was an import/export business with relatives in
24 Saudi Arabia.
25 Q. All right. And were you able to get any more details other

877

1   than that?
2   A. Very few, just that it was eventually going to involve the
3   import of grape leaves into Saudi Arabia.
4   Q. While you were pushing him for his information about his
5   income, what kind of -- at any point did Mr. Moussaoui become
6   angry with you?
7   A. He did.
8   Q. Can you tell us what happened?
9   A. When we -- when I suggested to Mr. Moussaoui that it seemed
10 strange that he was unable to remember his, what he did for a
11 living, what his job duties involved, how much money he made, who
12 his relatives were who were supplying him these funds, he got very
13 agitated and began telling Special Agent Weess and myself about
14 his academic qualifications.
15 Q. And what were those?
16 A. That he had obtained a Master's degree from South Bank
17 University in the United Kingdom.
18 Q. Okay. And did he tell you if he had any advanced degrees as
19 well?
20 A. He did. He said he had a Master's degree as well.
21 Q. All right. Now, at any point did you show him the Arvest
22 Bank slip, which I think is Exhibit MN-639.4? Could we bring that
23 up? The one that he had showed you at the time of arrest, did you
24 show that back to Mr. Moussaoui.
25 A. We did, yes, sir.

878

1   Q. And could you tell us, did you have questions about that?
2   A. We did. Special Agent Weess and myself noted that upon
3   arrival in the United States, he had $32,000 to deposit into an
4   account. We informed him we considered that unusual. And he
5   repeated that he had been working a lot and saved his money and
6   that that was the result.
7   Q. And was he able -- could he give you any other explanation
8   other than that?
9   A. He also said funds had been provided by friends and
10 associates.
11 Q. Could he identify who those friends and associates were?
12 A. He could not. He gave us one name as one nickname as a
13 person that he was in contact with.
14 Q. And what was that nickname?
15 A. The nickname was Talil.
16 Q. Why was it that you were so concerned about who his
17 associates were?
18 A. Because the associates -- we had figured out, we had reasoned
19 that any kind of hijacked plot or any kind of plot involving
20 aircraft would of necessity involve more people; that associates
21 who were providing him money, money which he clearly had been
22 using to reside and operate in the United States, would have
23 probably been provided by those terrorist associates.
24 Q. And could you tell us how is it that his answers affect your
25 interview in terms of how you are proceeding?

879

1   A. The answers dictate the logical course of the interview. We
2   can't ask logical follow-up questions if we're led down different
3   alleys. For example, if I ask about an associate who has provided
4   him money, supplied him with some of this $32,000, and he says the
5   person's name is Talil and he lives in the U.K., and he can't
6   remember the person's name, he can't remember their employment,
7   their source of income, it takes us down all sorts of alleys, wild
8   goose chases, essentially.
9   Q. And do you investigate those things that Mr. Moussaoui tells
10 you?
11 A. Absolutely.
12 Q. And you did do that in this case, didn't you?
13 A. That's right.
14 Q. Now, in addition to that, did Mr. Moussaoui tell you where he
15 was born?
16 A. He did.
17 Q. And what did he tell you about that?
18 A. He said he was born in Saint Jean De Luz, a city in France.
19 Q. Okay. Did he tell you what the ethnicity of his parents was?
20 A. That they originated in Morocco.
21 Q. Did he tell you about any other family members?
22 A. He did.
23 Q. What was that that he told you?
24 A. He described a brother and his father.
25 Q. Okay. And any discussions about his sister at any point?

880

1   A. No.
2   Q. All right. What did he tell you about his father and his
3   brother in terms of their relationship that he has with them?
4   A. He told us he was estranged from both, that his father was
5   employed as a builder and that his brother was a professor but
6   that he was estranged from both.
7   Q. Did he indicate to you where his -- if he had contact at all
8   with his mother?
9   A. He did not.
10 Q. Okay. Did he tell you where his family resided as of the
11 time that he was interviewed?
12 A. He did, in Narbonne, France.
13 Q. Did you ask him why it was that, since his family lived in
14 France, that he was living in England?
15 A. We did. He stated that it was because he had been educated
16 there and that he liked the qualities of the British people.
17 Q. Now, did you ask him at all about his foreign travel?
18 A. Yes, that was a very important interview item.
19 Q. Why is that an important interview item?
20 A. Because international terrorism by its nature involves plots,
21 operations, and funding that occur overseas that cross the borders
22 of countries.
23 Q. All right. And what is it that he had told you about his
24 travel around the world?
25 A. He told us he had been to Saudi Arabia on one occasion, to

881

1   Morocco. Obviously we understood he had been born in France and
2   educated in the U.K. He explained that. We knew from examining
3   his French passport that he had traveled to Pakistan. And then he
4   also informed us that he had been to Malaysia and Indonesia as
5   well.
6   Q. Did he tell you how long he had been in Pakistan?
7   A. He did.
8   Q. And how long was he, did he report to you that he had been
9   there?
10 A. Two months.
11 Q. And did he tell you why it was that he -- first of all, when
12 was that two-month period that he reported to you that he had been
13 there?
14 A. From December of 2000 to February of 2001.
15 Q. Okay. Did he tell you why it was that he had spent those
16 couple months in Pakistan in the early part of 2001?
17 A. He told us that it was a combination of a business trip with
18 that telephone card company.
19 Q. Okay.
20 A. As well as an attempt to find a wife.
21 Q. All right. Did he tell you how long he had been in
22 Indonesia?
23 A. He did.
24 Q. How long?
25 A. Just a week or two.

882

1   Q. Did he tell you why he had been in Indonesia?
2   A. Also part of that telephone card business.
3   Q. Did he tell you how long he had been in Malaysia?
4   A. Just a week or two as well.
5   Q. And did he tell you why he had gone to Malaysia?
6   A. As part of that telephone card business.
7   Q. All right. At any point did Mr. Moussaoui tell you that he
8   was looking to get married at some point?
9   A. He did, in Pakistan.
10 Q. Could you tell us what he told you about that?
11 A. He stated that in response to a question I had about why he
12 had stayed in Pakistan for longer than Indonesia and Malaysia, he
13 said in addition to his business with the telephone card company,
14 he was there looking for a wife and that he had been referred by
15 Talil to a brother, his friend Talil from the United Kingdom, to a
16 brother who lived in Pakistan and that that person was going to
17 help him find a wife.
18 Q. Could this friend Talil, could he give you any more
19 information about Talil?
20 A. He could not.
21 Q. Did you ask him for it?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. Why did you want that additional information about his
24 associate?
25 A. Because we were interested in identifying any associate he

883

1   could name, so that we could run checks on those people as well.
2   Q. So with just a name Talil, you couldn't do that; is that
3   right?
4   A. Correct.
5   Q. What else did he tell you about his time in Pakistan in terms
6   of where he stayed and where he traveled?
7   A. He told us that the entire time he was in Pakistan, he was
8   staying in hotels in the city of Karachi, that he never traveled
9   outside of Karachi at any time.
10 Q. Okay. And at that time -- during that time he is basically
11 staying with Talil's brother; is that right?
12 A. He is associating with Talil's brother but he is staying in
13 hotels.
14 Q. I'm sorry. Okay. And ultimately was he able to give you a
15 first name for Talil at some point?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And what was that first name?
18 A. The following or later in that interview he gave us the first
19 name of Ahmed.
20 Q. But without a last name at that point; is that correct?
21 A. Correct, that's correct.
22 Q. Now, had you asked Mr. Moussaoui during the time period that
23 he was in Pakistan, whether he had traveled to neighboring
24 countries or to other parts of Pakistan other than Karachi?
25 A. Yes, sir, I did.

884

1   Q. What is it that he reported back to you?
2   A. He became very, very agitated by that. He didn't answer that
3   question directly. Even though he previously had stated that he
4   was only in Karachi, when we phrased that question a different way
5   he got very angry and told us that he knew what we were trying to
6   do, and he wasn't going to stand for that. He wasn't going to
7   stand for being treated that way.
8   I asked him what he meant by that, and he said, he knew,
9   he watched TV, and he knew what we were trying to do.
10 Q. All right. You had discussed earlier that you had reviewed
11 Mr. Moussaoui's passport with him; is that correct?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. If we can bring, give back to the witness Exhibit MN-600.2
14 and bring up page 2 and 3 on the screen. Is that possible? Do
15 you have the exhibit there, MN-600.2?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Directing your attention to page 2, does it have the name of
18 Mr. Moussaoui on there?
19 A. It does.
20 Q. Looking at the screen, by the way, are you looking at -- does
21 the screen depict exactly what you have in your hand there?
22 A. It does.
23 Q. So we have Mr. Moussaoui's name, we have got his picture; is
24 that right?
25 A. Yes, sir.

885

1   Q. And does it have his date of birth on there as well?
2   A. It does.
3   Q. Now, does it indicate when it was that that passport was
4   issued?
5   A. Yes, it does.
6   Q. And what is that date?
7   A. 31 October 2000.
8   Q. And on the top of the next page, does it indicate what his
9   address is? I think it says domicile; is that right?
10 A. It does, yes, sir.
11 Q. What address is indicated on there?
12 A. 23A Lambert Road in London.
13 Q. All right. If we can turn forward to page 8 and 9 and ask
14 you if you can identify an entry stamp on there dated December the
15 9th.
16 A. I can. I can identify one for Karachi Airport in Pakistan
17 for December 9th.
18 Q. Of what year?
19 A. 2000.
20 Q. And is there a corresponding exit stamp for the Karachi
21 International Airport?
22 A. There is, for 7 February 2001.
23 Q. All right. Now, on page 9 also is there a visa that's
24 indicated on there?
25 A. There is. There is a Pakistani, Islamic Republic of Pakistan

886

1   visa.
2   Q. And that's for entry into Pakistan; is that right?
3   A. Yes, sir.
4   Q. And that visa was issued in what country?
5   A. That visa was issued at the Pakistani High Commission in
6   London, so the country would be England.
7   Q. And what was the date that that visa was issued?
8   A. December 4th of 2000.
9   Q. All right. In London they do it -- we see 4/12/2000. They
10 invert the first two numbers there, right?
11 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
12 Q. All right. And does it indicate what kind of number of
13 visits that are allowed on that visa?
14 A. It was a multiple-entry visa.
15 Q. All right. And how long was the duration of the stay
16 allowed?
17 A. Up until, it looks like, good for journey until December 3rd
18 of 2001.
19 Q. All right. Does it also have duration of each stay; is that
20 right?
21 A. It does, 90 days each.
22 Q. Does it indicate what the purpose of the visit is on that
23 visa?
24 A. Business.
25 Q. All right. Now, if you can turn to page 31, please, of the

887

1   passport and if we can put that up. Is that possible? All right.
2   Are you able to see an entry stamp there for the United States of
3   America?
4   A. I can.
5   Q. And what is the date that's indicated for the entry into this
6   country?
7   A. February 23rd of 2001.
8   Q. All right. Now, had you gone through, as you leaf through
9   the entire passport, do you see any entrance or exit stamps for
10 either Indonesia or Malaysia?
11 A. No, sir.
12 Q. And did you ask Mr. Moussaoui why it is that since he had
13 traveled, he had indicated to you that he had traveled to those
14 countries, why it is that that travel was not indicated in his
15 passport?
16 A. I did.
17 Q. And what did he tell you about that?
18 A. He informed me that that had been carried in a previously
19 issued passport, which had been destroyed by going through the
20 washing machine.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. Accidentally destroyed by going through the washing machine.
23 Q. All right. So this was a new a passport after he had ruined
24 the old one in the washing machine; is that right?
25 A. Yes, sir.

888

1   Q. Now, could you tell us what the import of that is for you as
2   a terrorism investigator?
3   A. I was aware that frequently terrorists to mask suspicious
4   travel or frequent travel, that couldn't be explained by their job
5   or by their nationality, would regularly destroy passports
6   accidentally or report them stolen in order to mask that travel,
7   so they weren't carrying incriminating entry and exit stamps.
8   Q. And you had indicated earlier that Mr. Moussaoui told you he
9   had also traveled to Saudi Arabia; is that right?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. And was there any stamp in his passport for Saudi Arabia?
12 A. There was not.
13 Q. Now, did Mr. Moussaoui -- you can put the passport aside.
14 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Mr. Wood.
15 BY MR. NOVAK:
16 Q. Now, Agent Samit, did you ask Mr. Moussaoui if he attended
17 any particular mosque when he was in London?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And what is it that he reported to you?
20 A. Regents Park Mosque.
21 Q. Did he report to you whether he attended any mosque when he
22 was in Norman, Oklahoma?
23 A. He did. He said that he attended the Anoor Mosque there.
24 Q. Did he report to you where it is that he had met Mr.
25 al-Attas?

889

1   A. He did.
2   Q. And where was that?
3   A. At the mosque.
4   Q. Okay.
5   A. The Anoor Mosque.
6   Q. Now, did Mr. Moussaoui describe himself in terms of what his
7   religious views were to you?
8   A. He did. He said he considered himself a religious Muslim.
9   Q. And did you ask him if he had followed any particular
10 religious scholars or leaders?
11 A. We did.
12 Q. And what is the import of that to you as an -- why did you
13 want to ask him something like that?
14 A. Well, because frequently, especially -- frequently
15 extremists, Muslim extremists will have a leader, either of a
16 group or of a religious order that they follow and whose views and
17 beliefs they subscribe to.
18 Q. Okay. Did he report to you that he followed any particular
19 religious leader?
20 A. He did not. He said that he had no religious leader. He had
21 no leader of any kind, that things were very clear for him, he
22 didn't need anyone to explain things.
23 Q. Did he tell you how often he prayed?
24 A. He did.
25 Q. How often was that?

890

1   A. Five times daily.
2   Q. Did he speak of helping his Muslim brothers?
3   A. Yes, sir.
4   Q. What did he tell you about that?
5   A. He told us that he considered it his duty to help his Muslim
6   brothers in any way possible.
7   Q. Did you ask him if he could read or speak or write Arabic?
8   A. I did.
9   Q. What did he tell you about that?
10 A. He said he could speak it but that he could not read or write
11 it.
12 Q. And did he have any discussions with you about how that
13 impacted his understanding of fatwahs?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. What did he tell you about that?
16 A. He claimed to me that as a result of not being able to read
17 or write Arabic, he couldn't understand fatwahs.
18 Q. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Moussaoui about the
19 plight of the Palestinians in relation to the country of Israel?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. And what is it that Mr. Moussaoui reported to you, his views
22 on that?
23 A. He stated that that crisis, that confrontation made him very
24 sad.
25 Q. Did you have any other follow-up discussions with that?

891

1   A. We continually talked about the theme of helping Muslims and
2   what he considered that help to be, yes.
3   Q. Did you ask Mr. Moussaoui if he had been drafted into the
4   Army in France?
5   A. Yes, sir.
6   Q. Is there regular conscription in France?
7   A. There is.
8   Q. And what is it that Mr. Moussaoui reported to you about his
9   draft status in the country of France?
10 A. He indicated that he had not served in the French military
11 due to some family and personal problems.
12 Q. Did you ask him about his familiarity with weapons?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Why did you ask him about that?
15 A. Because my understanding is, was that frequently
16 international terrorists train in camps. During that training
17 they receive weapons training.
18 Q. Okay. What did he report to you about his familiarity with
19 weapons?
20 A. He reported that he was unfamiliar with weapons, that he had
21 never been trained in them, that he had fired a handgun on one or
22 two occasions with some, owned by some friends in France. He said
23 he was curious about weapons and would some day like to learn
24 about them but he denied unequivocally that he had ever been
25 trained in them or used them.

892

1   Q. Did you ask him particularly if he had been in terrorist
2   camps?
3   A. No, not at that time.
4   Q. Did you ask him about training with weapons, though, at all?
5   A. Yes. We asked him if he ever received any training with
6   weapons.
7   Q. And he denied that; is that right?
8   A. He did.
9   Q. All right. Now, did you ask him about what he intended to do
10 upon his completion of his training at Pan Am?
11 A. He did -- we did ask him that, and he informed me that he
12 intended to return to Norman, Oklahoma and then eventually back to
13 the United Kingdom.
14 Q. At any point did he indicate to you whether he and Mr.
15 al-Attas intended to take a sight-seeing trip in the United
16 States?
17 A. He did.
18 Q. What did he tell you about that?
19 A. He told us that he was planning to go to New York and Denver
20 as well.
21 Q. Did he tell you when that was going to occur?
22 A. At the conclusion of his training in Minnesota.
23 Q. Did he tell you where -- I'm sorry, where in particular he
24 was going to go?
25 A. Well, when he said he was going to New York, he said he was

893

1   going to go to see the Empire State and the White House.
2   Q. Okay. And now -- was there anything else that you discussed
3   during the interview on that evening?
4   A. We just, we discussed leaving the interview open, that we
5   would talk again tomorrow after we did some checks.
6   Q. Okay. Basically, did the interview conclude then, after --
7   we basically captured the large part of the interview at that
8   time?
9   A. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
10 Q. And what did you do with Mr. Moussaoui at that point?
11 A. Special Agent Weess and I transported him to Carver County
12 jail for the night.
13 Q. Okay. And during the drive, how far of a drive was that from
14 the INS offices?
15 A. 30 to 40 minutes.
16 Q. And during that drive did you have any more conversations
17 with Mr. Moussaoui?
18 A. We did. Mr. Moussaoui informed us during that transport that
19 he again reminded us of the importance of his flight training. He
20 told us that, in fact, if we would let him go, if we would release
21 him from INS custody, he would complete the flight training and
22 return so that we could deport him.
23 Q. Okay. He was pretty focused on that training; is that right?
24 A. Extremely. It was a constant theme during our interviews.
25 Q. And what did you tell him in response to that request, to let

894

1   him go so he could finish the training?
2   A. Well, we told him we needed to clear up a few issues first,
3   we needed to continue discussing his background and the issues we
4   discussed that night before we could make a decision.
5   Q. Okay. And that was the last -- you took him to the jail; is
6   that right?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   Q. Let's go to the next day, August the 17th of 2001.
9   About 9:00 a.m. -- now, you had previously testified
10 that Mr. al-Attas was asked to report to the INS on that day. Did
11 he show up?
12 A. Yes, sir, he did.
13 Q. And did you and Agent Weess interview him at that time?
14 A. We did. We interviewed him again.
15 Q. Again. And how long approximately was it that that interview
16 occurred?
17 A. About an hour.
18 Q. Did you get a signed statement at that time?
19 A. We did.
20 Q. And now did you ask him -- this interview, was it basically
21 divided in two parts?
22 A. It was. It was a two-part interview.
23 Q. And could you describe for us what it is that you mean, why
24 you described it as a two-part interview?
25 A. Because the first part of the interview was about

895

1   Mr. Moussaoui, was just a continuation of our discussion of
2   Mr. Moussaoui the night before. The second part of the interview
3   by agreement was going to focus on Mr. al-Attas.
4   Q. All right. Let's talk about the first part then about
5   Mr. Moussaoui.
6   What additional details, if any, did he give you on the
7   August the 17th to supplement that which he had told you on the
8   previous day?
9   A. He provided additional details about Mr. Moussaoui's belief
10 in defending Muslims, knowing of the plight of Muslims elsewhere.
11 He provided a little bit more on Mr. Moussaoui's philosophy of how
12 Muslims should prepare themselves to fight, should be ready to
13 fight, the approval of martyrs, that Mr. Moussaoui approved of
14 martyrs, which was consistent with Islamic radicals.
15 Q. Okay. Did you press him for any further personal details
16 about Mr. Moussaoui, about his name, beyond Shaqil or any things
17 like that?
18 A. We did, and Mr. al-Attas stated that Shaqil was, he continued
19 to state Shaqil was all he knew him by.
20 Q. Okay. Now, did you ask Mr. al-Attas if Mr. Moussaoui
21 followed the teachings of any particular sheikh?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. And what was the response by Mr. al-Attas?
24 A. Mr. al-Attas said that Mr. Moussaoui was, had told him he had
25 a sheikh that he followed but that he was unwilling to reveal the

896

1   name to Mr. al-Attas because he feared Mr. al-Attas would not
2   approve of that sheikh because of the sheikh's nationality.
3   Q. Okay. And did you ask him if that sheikh was Usama Bin
4   Laden?
5   A. We did.
6   Q. And what was the response by Mr. al-Attas on that?
7   A. Mr. al-Attas considered that possibility but he said he did
8   not think so.
9   Q. Did you ask him, Mr. al-Attas, if Moussaoui had ever spoken
10 about Bin Laden?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And what did Mr. al-Attas report to you about that?
13 A. Mr. al-Attas stated that he had on one occasion spoken about
14 Bin Laden, when the two of them were watching TV together, a news
15 clip, film clip came on of Mr. Bin Laden, and he said that
16 Mr. Moussaoui called his attention to that person and kind of gave
17 an indication that there was somebody important or there was
18 someone of significance.
19 Q. All right. Now, did you have -- did you ask Mr. al-Attas
20 about whether or not Mr. Moussaoui associated with others down in
21 Oklahoma?
22 A. We did.
23 Q. And what did Mr. al-Attas report to you?
24 A. He gave us the names of a couple of people at the flight
25 school, who might have, might be associates of Mr. Moussaoui.

897

1   Q. Anything else about Mr. Moussaoui during that interview of
2   consequence that he supplemented from the previous interview?
3   A. No.
4   Q. All right. Now, in addition to asking questions of
5   Mr. al-Attas, as well as Moussaoui, did you ask him about,
6   questions about Mr. al-Attas?
7   A. In the second part of the interview, when Mr. al-Attas
8   informed us that he had told us all that there was about
9   Mr. Moussaoui, we switched and started talking to Mr. al-Attas
10 about himself again.
11 Q. And did you ask him about whether he was making any money
12 from employment in the United States?
13 A. Special Agent Weess asked him if he was receiving money for
14 any work he was doing, yes.
15 Q. Okay. And what was Mr. al-Attas's response?
16 A. Mr. al-Attas indicated that, in fact, he was being paid by
17 the mosque to teach the children, to teach the children in
18 religious studies there.
19 Q. Okay. And did that have any consequence upon Mr. al-Attas's
20 visa situation?
21 A. It did. It put him, absent permission to work on an F-1
22 visa, which he did not have, it put him in violation of that visa.
23 Q. As a result of that, did you-all arrest Mr. al-Attas?
24 A. Special Agent Weess placed Mr. al-Attas under arrest, yes.
25 Q. Now, you told us the violation of the visa waiver program by

898

1   Mr. Moussaoui. He could not get bond; is that right?
2   A. That's correct.
3   Q. But in contrast to Mr. al-Attas's situation, that violation
4   of the student visa, is somebody able to get bond?
5   A. They are.
6   Q. All right.
7   A. They are.
8   Q. And did he, indeed, ultimately post bond after that arrest?
9   A. He did.
10 Q. And when was it that he posted that bond?
11 A. That arrest occurred on Friday, on the 17th, and he was, he
12 posted bond and was released on that Monday, the 20th.
13 Q. Okay. Now, how long was it that -- approximately when is it
14 that you stopped talking to Mr. al-Attas when he was arrested,
15 what time of day was it?
16 A. Probably by the time we finished the interview and he was
17 handed over to the detention agents would have been between 10:30
18 and 11 a.m.
19 Q. So you talked to him about maybe short of two hours?
20 A. We talked to him for probably about an hour and then the
21 processing and reassuring him took probably another half an hour.
22 Q. Now, where did you transport Mr. al-Attas to?
23 A. Al-Attas was transported by immigration detention officials
24 to Carver County Jail.
25 Q. The same jail Mr. Moussaoui had been in the night before?

899

1   A. Previously, yes. And he had been transported back up by then
2   to the immigration office.
3   Q. And at any point did you put the two of them in the same jail
4   together?
5   A. No, sir.
6   Q. We're going to talk about another interview of Mr. Moussaoui,
7   but when you were done with that, did you send Mr. Moussaoui back
8   to Carver or did you send him to a different jail?
9   A. At the conclusion of the interviews on the 17th,
10 Mr. Moussaoui was sent to a different jail.
11 Q. And what jail was that?
12 A. Sherburn County Jail.
13 Q. All right. Now, after you got done talking to Mr. al-Attas,
14 did you have an occasion to speak with Mr. Moussaoui?
15 A. We did. We, as we had agreed the night before, we
16 reinterviewed Mr. Moussaoui.
17 Q. All right. And at that time did you -- how long did you
18 interview him?
19 A. Approximately two hours.
20 Q. All right.
21 A. One to two hours.
22 Q. And at that time when you first started, did you readvise him
23 of his Miranda rights as you did the previous day?
24 A. We did. We reminded him that that was still in effect.
25 Q. And at that time was Mr. Moussaoui interested in talking to

900

1   you or not?
2   A. He was. He was very interested in talking to us that time.
3   Q. And did he tell you why it was that he was eager to talk to
4   you?
5   A. Again, he reminded us of the need to continue flight
6   training. He was very under control. He spoke in a controlled
7   manner. He was -- he said he was anxious to clear things up. He
8   informed us that he had never been arrested before, his words were
9   "my file is clear, and I would like to get this straightened out
10 so I can return to flight training."
11 Q. All right. By the way, at that time did he provide to you
12 any information about whether his father had been in trouble
13 before?
14 A. He did. He indicated his father had been arrested before.
15 Q. For what?
16 A. Issues relating to his construction business. He undercut
17 some jobs or he otherwise didn't use materials that were up to
18 standard.
19 Q. Did he tell you, did he give you the name of his brother at
20 that time?
21 A. He did.
22 Q. What was that?
23 A. Abd Samad.
24 Q. Did he tell you what his brother did in France?
25 A. He indicated that he was professor in Montpelier, France.

901

1   Q. Okay. Now, did you again during this second day of
2   interviews, did you ask him about the source of his funding again?
3   A. Yes.
4   Q. And could you tell us why it is that you did that again?
5   A. The issue remained the same from the day before. He had not
6   provided a wholly convincing explanation for where he was able to
7   come up with that amount of money.
8   Funding is very important to terrorism investigators
9   because, not just the source that allows us to identify
10 associates, but it also gives an indication of what the plan may
11 be. It is a very important article of any criminality for us to
12 determine it.
13 Q. And did he indicate to you any further discussions about
14 where he had gotten his money from?
15 A. He did.
16 Q. And what was that?
17 A. He named, he indicated it was from friends and associates.
18 Q. And did you press him again on details of who those friends
19 were?
20 A. We did. We pressed him on them, again, reminding him that it
21 seemed very strange that people who had provided him with such a
22 large sum of money, that he couldn't even name.
23 Q. Okay. And what names did he give you at that time?
24 A. In the middle of his getting angry and shouting at us, he
25 gave us the name Ahmed Atif.

902

1   Q. And Ahmed Atif, was that any relationship to the Ahmed who
2   was Talil the day before?
3   A. It was. He indicated that he had remembered the name, the
4   last name, and that Talil was, in fact, Ahmed Atef.
5   Q. And what did you do with that information about that name?
6   Did you take any investigatory action about that?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   Q. And what investigatory action was it that you took?
9   A. We -- I sent an immediate lead to our legal attache in
10 London.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Asking for information about that person.
13 Q. You are trying to follow that trail of money to see if it led
14 anywhere; is that right?
15 A. We trailed the money and of any associates that he is naming.
16 Q. Did it turn out to be fruitful in any fashion?
17 A. It did not.
18 Q. What did you find out about the fellow?
19 A. That he was, in fact -- months later we were able to learn --
20 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection to what he found out months
21 later, Your Honor, if that's the focus of this investigation. If
22 he wants to open that up, we can do that.
23 MR. NOVAK: Well, we're going to go there, but I think
24 that's a proper response.
25 THE COURT: I am going to overrule the objection. I

903

1   think that gives a complete picture of what was going on. Do you
2   have water?
3   THE WITNESS: He is working on it, Your Honor.
4   THE COURT: Thank you.
5   THE WITNESS: We found out months later, in fact, that
6   Ahmed Atif was not related in any way to this investigation.
7   BY MR. NOVAK:
8   Q. So that was a lie?
9   A. Yes, sir.
10 Q. All right. And did he give you the name of anybody else
11 other than Ahmed Atif?
12 A. He did.
13 Q. And what other name did he gave you?
14 A. He gave us a name Habib.
15 Q. Did he give you a last name for Habib?
16 A. He did not.
17 Q. Did he tell you what country Habib was in?
18 A. He indicated that Habib resided in Germany.
19 Q. Did you do any investigation in Germany on Habib?
20 A. No, because he was unable to give a last name, a telephone
21 number. He told us he didn't even know what city or what part of
22 Germany Habib resided in.
23 Q. Did you ask him for all these details?
24 A. We did.
25 Q. And were you continuing to ask for as much information as

904

1   possible about his financial sources?
2   A. That's always the goal of investigators is to get every piece
3   of information that we can. It was a constant theme of our
4   discussion with him.
5   Q. So you were continuing to ask him those questions?
6   A. Yes, sir.
7   Q. All right. And at any point did he mention the name of Ahad
8   Sabet?
9   A. No.
10 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, same objection as before,
11 just waiting for a while to ask that question, never even asked
12 him if he knew anybody named Ahad Sabet.
13 MR. NOVAK: It is a proper response --
14 THE COURT: I am allowing a few but not the whole, we're
15 not going to go through the whole list of things.
16 MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Judge.
17 THE COURT: So that objection I am going to overrule.
18 BY MR. NOVAK:
19 Q. Now, at that time did you ask him, again, as to any questions
20 about his flight training?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. I'm sorry. I don't think we ever got an answer on the Ahad
23 Sabet question.
24 A. He never mentioned Ahad Sabet. He did not.
25 Q. Did you hear the name Ahad Sabet at all during that

905

1   interview?
2   A. No.
3   Q. Other than the names of Talil and Habib, did he give you any
4   other names or any other sources of income, other than those two
5   names?
6   A. No.
7   Q. Now, I'm sorry, moving on to the flight training, did you ask
8   him any further questions about the flight training?
9   A. Yes.
10 Q. And what questions did you ask him?
11 A. We again discussed his purpose, why he was taking the flight
12 training. He gave us a similar answer for enjoyment, for his own
13 personal ego.
14 Q. Okay. Did you have any discussions about any other flight
15 schools that he was associated with?
16 A. He did. When we told him, Mr. Moussaoui, that it seemed
17 unlikely that he would spend that amount of money on what was not
18 going to gain him any ratings, was not going to advance his
19 aviation career in any way, he got agitated and he informed us
20 that there were plenty of other schools in the United States, that
21 he had made numerous inquiries of flight schools and he named a
22 couple.
23 Q. Which couple did he name?
24 A. Flight Safety International and he named the University of
25 Minnesota as well.

906

1   Q. And did you check out whether, in fact, those places existed?
2   A. Yes. I did Internet searches for both. I was familiar with
3   Flight Safety International anyway but I just verified that they
4   did offer training. They did.
5   Q. Did the University of Minnesota have any type of training,
6   flight training, are you aware?
7   A. Not in specific flight training. What it did have training
8   in was aerospace engineering as an academic pursuit.
9   Q. Now, did you ask Mr. Moussaoui whether you could search his
10 computer at that time?
11 A. We did.
12 Q. What computer did he have?
13 A. He had -- we noticed that the day before when we were
14 bringing his items, his goods to immigration, that he had a laptop
15 computer.
16 Q. All right. And what was his response when you asked him if
17 you could search his computer?
18 A. He was very definite that it was no, the answer was no.
19 Q. Did you ask him again whether you could search the baggage
20 that he had there in his room, the ones that had been transported
21 there to the INS office?
22 A. We did not.
23 Q. You did not or you did not ask him?
24 A. We did not ask him.
25 Q. Okay. And now could you tell us why it is that you asked to

907

1   search his computer?
2   A. He was -- he brought up the subject of the Internet. He
3   brought up the Internet searches. It was our, as the largest data
4   storage piece of equipment there, compared to a notebook or
5   compared to any other places where Mr. Moussaoui could have had
6   data stored, and through which he could have communicated, the
7   laptop was the most obvious. It would have the most information
8   and it had the potential to log on to the Internet.
9   Q. Now, could you tell us what else did you ask Mr. Moussaoui
10 then at that time?
11 A. At that point we informed Mr. Moussaoui that, in fact, we did
12 not believe his story and, again, began asking him questions about
13 his source of funding, his associates, and his reasons for flight
14 training.
15 Q. And you never got any more information other than what you
16 have reported to us; is that right?
17 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
18 Q. All right. Now, at some point did you confront Mr. Moussaoui
19 with what you believed that he was involved in?
20 A. Yes, we did.
21 Q. Could you tell us what it is that you told Mr. Moussaoui?
22 A. We informed Mr. Moussaoui that his story hadn't added up,
23 that he had not given us a satisfactory explanation for his
24 reasons for being in the United States, his reasons for coming to
25 Minnesota to take flight training, the fact that he had so much

908

1   money, the fact that his flight training and the purpose and the
2   ends to that flight training did not make sense for any kind of
3   practical aviation rating, that we understood that he was an
4   Islamic extremist, that he talked about violence before, and we
5   asked him to identify his associates and what his plan was.
6   Q. And what was his response to that?
7   A. He denied that he was involved in terrorism. He repeated
8   that he was training, his aviation training was for fun. He
9   denied that he was a member of a terrorist group. He denied that
10 he had any contact with terrorists and that he had any terrorist
11 purposes.
12 Q. Did he provide to you the names of any associates?
13 A. He did not.
14 Q. Did he tell you the name of any religious scholar?
15 A. He did not.
16 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, he's answered the question
17 as to what he said. We can go through a list of things he didn't
18 say.
19 THE COURT: I am going to allow a little leeway with
20 this witness. I have been allowing a lot of leeway to the defense
21 in its cross, but -- so overruled. That doesn't mean with every
22 witness we're going to ask a million questions, but that's all
23 right with this witness.
24 MR. NOVAK: I understand. Thank you, Judge. I only
25 have a couple focus questions here anyhow.

909

1   BY MR. NOVAK:
2   Q. Did he describe -- you asked him about a plan. Did he give
3   you any type of plan he was involved in?
4   A. No.
5   Q. And I think we were cut off but did he ever give you the name
6   of a religious scholar that he followed?
7   A. He did not.
8   Q. Did he ever tell you if he was part of any type of particular
9   type of terrorist group?
10 A. He denied that. He denied direct questions as to: Please
11 tell us the name of your associates, the name of your group, who
12 the other people are. Not only did he not tell us, he denied that
13 he was a member.
14 Q. Now, after he made those denials about having any role in
15 terrorism, can you tell us what happened after that?
16 A. We continued to press him to the point where he said that he
17 was not a member of a group, he didn't have any associates, and
18 then he asked to speak to an immigration lawyer.
19 Q. All right. And did you stop interviewing him at that time?
20 A. Immediately.
21 MR. NOVAK: Judge, I would ask for leave to be able to
22 show the Statement of Facts now to the witness and compare the
23 answers that he gave during the Statement of Facts to those that
24 he gave during the interview because if the agent has to describe
25 how the -- the lies that were told impacted his investigation, it

910

1   is very material to this entire case about whether they had a
2   consequence or not, and what he would, what he could have done,
3   with the information that was in the Statement of Facts.
4   THE COURT: Well, approach the bench for a second.
5   (Bench conference on the record.)
6   [--- Redacted

9 ---]
10 (End of bench conference.)
11 THE COURT: We're going to go another five minutes and
12 take the afternoon recess. All right? Everybody okay on that?
13 MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Judge, thank you.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. If we can put Exhibit GX-1 on the stand, starting with
16 paragraph 4, please.
17 Now, I'm showing you paragraph 4 from the admissions
18 that Mr. Moussaoui made in his Statement of Facts, Agent Samit.
19 Can you read that?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Now, could you tell us at any point during that interview did
22 Mr. Moussaoui tell you that he was a member of al Qaeda and he
23 pledged bayat to Bin Laden?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. Could you tell the jury what the impact upon that interview

914

1   that you had with Mr. Moussaoui was, had he told you this
2   information that he knew?
3   A. It would have immediately sounded alarm bells.
4   Q. I am just talking about the interview itself. What would you
5   have done in terms of questions that you would have asked
6   Mr. Moussaoui?
7   A. I would have asked additional questions to ascertain the full
8   extent of his role in al Qaeda, his association with Usama Bin
9   Laden, his role in any plot. It would have opened a whole world
10 of questioning.
11 Q. If we can show the witness statement number 5, please, or
12 paragraph number 5. Could you tell us at any point did
13 Mr. Moussaoui tell you that he had trained in a terrorism camp in
14 Khalden, in Afghanistan?
15 A. No, sir.
16 Q. Could you tell us what impact upon the interview in terms of
17 the questions that you had with Mr. Moussaoui that you would have
18 asked had he told you the truth about his terrorist training?
19 A. I would have asked the nature of the training, his
20 associates, again, a whole field of questioning, guesthouses
21 associated with that, with that installation, the types of
22 training he had received in terms of weapons.
23 Q. Okay. Well, talking about guesthouses, let's move on to
24 paragraph 6 of the Statement of Facts. Can you see paragraph 6 up
25 there, Agent Samit?

915

1   A. Yes, sir.
2   Q. And does that indicate -- well, strike that.
3   Did Mr. Moussaoui ever tell you that he had managed a
4   guesthouse for al Qaeda?
5   A. He did not.
6   Q. Did he ever tell you that he had a high position of respect
7   within al Qaeda?
8   A. No, sir.
9   Q. Did he ever tell you that he spoke directly to Bin Laden and
10 Abu Hafs?
11 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, this is a little different
12 than just asking him about his interview techniques, using this as
13 an excuse to read the Statement of Facts back in the record.
14 THE COURT: I have addressed this issue and I have
15 overruled the objection. We're going to continue. Go ahead.
16 BY MR. NOVAK:
17 Q. Did he tell you that he had communicated directly with Bin
18 Laden and Abu Hafs?
19 A. No, sir. Obviously that would have been the most highly
20 significant information he could have given.
21 Q. Try to explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury how it
22 is that an interview works and how you respond to the information
23 that they give you and how this would have affected that.
24 A. An interview is a very dynamic thing, any type of law
25 enforcement interview. It is not a scripted type of event. In

916

1   fact, the course that the interview takes is highly dependent on
2   the responses that the person being interviewed gives.
3   If he denies any knowledge of the crime, any knowledge
4   of the activity being described, the interviewer of necessity has
5   to go into side channels which don't get directly at the problem.
6   As the person being interviewed, as the subject begins to make
7   admissions, that leads investigators to ask additional questions
8   which are designed to get more information. If the admissions,
9   and in this case if the lies prevent that, the interview can't
10 continue logically.
11 Q. All right. Now, specifically about this information that is
12 in paragraph 6, where Mr. Moussaoui has admitted that he dealt
13 directly with Bin Laden and Abu Hafs, what kind of questions would
14 you have asked perhaps about Bin Laden and Abu Hafs and al Qaeda?
15 A. I would have asked what his purpose for being in the United
16 States was, what they had asked him to do, who else they had asked
17 to do it, his means of communicating with them, the amount of
18 money they provided him.
19 Q. Okay. You talk about why he was in the United States. Let's
20 move on to paragraph 7. Can you read paragraph 7?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Let's expand it a little bit. Can we do that somehow? Now,
23 can you read now paragraph 7? You can take your time there if you
24 want.
25 Now, at any point during your interview with

917

1   Mr. Moussaoui, did he ever tell you that he was aware of a plan to
2   fly planes into buildings in the United States of America?
3   A. No, sir.
4   Q. And could you tell the ladies and gentlemen what the impact
5   on your interview would have been had he told you such a plan
6   existed?
7   A. Yes, it would have obviously changed it dramatically. I
8   would have begun asking the timing, the associates, the targets,
9   questions of that nature.
10 Q. All right. And moving on to paragraph 8, please. Could you
11 take a second there and read paragraph 8, Agent Samit?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Did you have a chance to read that?
14 A. I did.
15 Q. At any point did Mr. Moussaoui tell you that he was aware of
16 any type of, such operation or religious operation where people
17 were going to die?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. And could you tell us how that would have impacted your
20 interview?
21 A. It would, again, have directed us to seek information on
22 associates, people he was aware of, by name, by nickname, by
23 location, telephone number, e-mail address, any way that we could
24 to locate those individuals.
25 Q. Showing you paragraph number 9, if I could. Do you want to

918

1   take a second to read that?
2   At any point did Mr. Moussaoui tell you he came to this
3   country to fly a plane into the White House?
4   A. No, sir.
5   Q. Could you tell us what the impact upon your interview would
6   have been had he told you he was here to do such a thing?
7   A. Again, it would have triggered an immediate attempt to gather
8   as many details as possible about that operation, to include
9   people, timing, aircraft, everything we could possibly get about
10 that.
11 Q. Did Mr. Moussaoui ever tell you he had a war name in
12 al Qaeda?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Did you ever see that name there, which I am going to ask you
15 to say it, so I don't embarass myself, can you tell us what that
16 name is?
17 A. Sahrawi.
18 Q. Did you ever hear that name during that interview?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. If he had told you that he was here to do such a thing and he
21 bore a war name as part of al Qaeda, could you tell us how that
22 would have impacted your interview?
23 A. It would have driven both Special Agent Weess and myself,
24 again, to gather every piece of information that we could about
25 the plan, associates, timing, targets.

919

1   Q. Showing you paragraph number 10, please.
2   THE COURT: Actually, MR. NOVAK, why don't we take the
3   break now, since you are having problems finding it and we will be
4   in recess for 20 minutes and reconvene at 10 of.
5   (Recess from 3:30 p.m., until 3:50 p.m.)
6   (Defendant and Jury in.)
7   MR. NOVAK: May I proceed, Your Honor?
8   THE COURT: Yes, MR. NOVAK.
9   BY MR. NOVAK:
10 Q. I think I was trying to bring up paragraph 10, which is on
11 two different pages, so I'm going to ask you to take a look at No.
12 10 there, Agent Samit. Take a look at that.
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. Can you tell us, had Mr. Moussaoui told you that as he did
15 when he admitted it before the Court, how would that have impacted
16 your interview on August the 16th and 17th?
17 A. I would have asked him many questions aimed specifically at
18 gathering details of his plans to use his training in furtherance
19 of al Qaeda's plans.
20 Q. By the way, would you have asked specifically about who the
21 al Qaeda associate was that gave him the flight school
22 information?
23 A. I would.
24 Q. And by the way, as of that day, had you ever heard the name
25 Mohamed Atta?

920

1   A. Mohamed Atta? No.
2   Q. Okay. Now, if we can move to paragraph 13, please? I'm
3   going to ask you to read that paragraph, sir.
4   Did -- did Mr. Moussaoui ever tell you that the reason
5   that he had those knives, including the dagger that you recovered
6   and the other knife, that it was to get past airport security?
7   A. No.
8   Q. Could you tell us what, if any, impact that had upon your
9   interview with Mr. Moussaoui at that time?
10 A. I would have asked him -- I did not ask him because of that
11 additional follow-up questions about types of other weapons, the
12 reason for bringing those knives. It just ended that there.
13 Q. Would you have asked questions directed towards what kind of
14 countermeasures could have been put in place?
15 A. No.
16 THE COURT: Agent Samit, I may have missed it in your
17 earlier questioning. Did you ask Mr. Moussaoui any questions at
18 all about the knives?
19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we did. We asked him why he
20 had them, and he said it was because there was crime in the United
21 States and they were to protect against that.
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. So that was not true; is that correct?
24 A. No, that's not true. And consistent with that statement,
25 it's not true. He had the knives for another purpose.

921

1   Q. All right. Could we show paragraph 14, please?
2   You've had a chance to take a look at that?
3   A. Yes, sir.
4   Q. Now, at any point, did Mr. Moussaoui ask you about any -- or
5   tell you about any receiving of money from a fellow by the name of
6   Ahad Sabet?
7   A. No, sir.
8   Q. Other than this fellow named Habib, the last name unknown,
9   did he mention anyone else from Germany?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Did he mention to you that he had received any of this money
12 via wire transfer?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And could you tell us how it is that this impacted your
15 interview with Mr. Moussaoui, his failure to disclose that
16 information that he ultimately told Judge Brinkema when he pled
17 guilty?
18 A. We were unable to ask him any questions about Germany, about
19 Ahad Sabet, about any type of associate. When we did ask him
20 questions about Germany, about this Habib individual, he claimed
21 he couldn't remember the city, Habib's last name, a telephone
22 number, any of those details, and that effectively ended that
23 questioning.
24 Q. Now, could you tell us how it is that that interview ended?
25 You can put that down. Thank you, Gerard.

922

1   Can you tell us how it is the interview with
2   Mr. Moussaoui ended?
3   A. Right before he, he invoked his right to counsel while we
4   were talking to him, we informed Mr. Moussaoui that we were aware
5   of his involvement in a plot, in a plot involving airliners. We
6   reminded him that he was in custody and that if anything were to
7   happen to him, that, in fact, he would be held accountable before
8   the United States, before the American people.
9   Q. And what did you do with that?
10 A. What did we --
11 Q. Did he respond to that?
12 A. He did not.
13 Q. All right. And what did you do with Mr. Moussaoui then?
14 A. Well, we continued the questioning until he invoked his right
15 to counsel, and then we turned him back over to the detention
16 personnel.
17 Q. Okay. Is that when you took him to the Sherburn jail?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. Now, after you took Mr. Moussaoui to the Sherburn jail, could
20 you tell us what it is -- what was your next step that you
21 intended to take in terms of the investigation here, or that you
22 did take, I should say?
23 A. It was Special Agent Weess and my belief that we had
24 uncovered sufficient evidence of a crime, criminal conspiracy, and
25 our plan was to open a parallel criminal investigation and go to

923

1   the United States Attorney's Office for appropriate search
2   warrants and subpoenas.
3   Q. To do so, you had earlier told us you have to go through your
4   headquarters; is that right?
5   A. Yes, sir, that's correct. In fact, we do.
6   Q. And had Mr. Moussaoui told you the things in those paragraphs
7   that we showed you on the screen here, would you have relayed that
8   information as well to your headquarters?
9   A. Immediately.
10 Q. All right. Now, could you tell us on August 17 of 2001, did
11 you make some kind of notification to your headquarters?
12 A. We did.
13 Q. And could you tell us -- first of all, would you explain to
14 the ladies and gentlemen what ITOS is in the world of FBI?
15 A. ITOS stands for the International Terrorism Operations
16 Section. It's a group of supervisors and analysts at
17 headquarters, International Terrorism Operations Section, who are
18 assigned to oversee and support investigations in the field, like
19 in Minneapolis.
20 Q. And within ITOS, are there various units dealing with
21 particular groups of terrorists?
22 A. There are.
23 Q. Could you just summarize what some of the units are there
24 that are within the ITOS division of the FBI?
25 A. Two important ones for this are the Usama Bin Laden Unit that

924

1   deals with al Qaeda, or UBLU is the acronym, and the Radical
2   Fundamentalist Unit, or RFU.
3   Q. And what do they deal with?
4   A. The Usama Bin Laden Unit deals with al Qaeda. The Radical
5   Fundamentalist Unit at the time dealt with Sunni extremists who
6   are not al Qaeda, various other groups.
7   Q. And as a field agent out there, are you supposed to go to
8   the, to the unit that deals with the particular terrorist that
9   you're looking at?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. And -- now, you believed that Mr. Moussaoui was a terrorist,
12 as you've -- you confronted him with, as you've testified; is that
13 right?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Did you know which terrorist organization he was a member of?
16 A. We did not.
17 Q. And so how did you know which unit to go to in the ITOS?
18 A. Well, we didn't originally, and the one that most logically
19 fitted it was the Radical Fundamentalist Unit.
20 Q. Would that have been changed had he told you he was a member
21 of al Qaeda?
22 A. It absolutely would have. Any of those admissions that you
23 showed me on the screen would have triggered us going to the Usama
24 Bin Laden Unit, as opposed to Radical Fundamentalist Unit.
25 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I want to renew my

925

1   objection. We've got questions about how it would have changed
2   the interview, and now we're getting questions about how it would
3   have changed any of the other things he did, which are purely
4   speculative.
5   THE COURT: Well, I don't think for an on-the-ground
6   agent it's speculative for him to say if I had X, I would have
7   done Y. That's what this agent is essentially saying, and I
8   therefore don't find this speculative.
9   Now, there may be down the road a legitimate basis to
10 make that objection. I don't think this is it, so I'm overruling
11 it.
12 MR. MAC MAHON: Thank you, Your Honor.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. Okay. So instead of going to the Usama Bin Laden Unit, you
15 said you went to the what unit?
16 A. To the Radical Fundamentalist Unit.
17 Q. And why is this that you went to the Radical Fundamentalist
18 Unit?
19 A. We knew that Mr. Moussaoui was a Sunni Muslim, he was an
20 extremist, and we believed he was involved in an ongoing plot.
21 The Radical Fundamentalist Unit was the logical unit.
22 Q. Okay. And now could you tell us how is it that a field agent
23 communicates with the headquarters? Do you just call them up on
24 the telephone, or do you do something else?
25 A. Informal communications can be via telephone or e-mail, but

926

1   in the FBI world, formalized communications were through a
2   document that we call an electronic communication.
3   Q. Okay.
4   A. Or an EC is how we abbreviate it.
5   Q. This EC, did you send it then to the RFU unit?
6   A. Initially it was sent to the Iran unit and then routed to the
7   RFU unit.
8   Q. Why did you go to the Iran unit then?
9   A. Because before speaking with Mr. Moussaoui, FBI database
10 checks indicated that his name might be connected to Iran.
11 Q. Okay. And what happened when your EC got to Iran? Did you
12 get kicked over to the RFU unit?
13 A. We did. By then there had been enough of a delay, the
14 interviews had occurred, and we were well aware that it was not
15 under the purview of the Iran unit but in fact the Radical
16 Fundamentalist Unit.
17 Q. So when -- so you never got kicked over to the UBL Unit,
18 though; is that right?
19 A. That's correct.
20 Q. Where you should have been in the first place, all right.
21 Now, could you tell us who was your contact in the RFU
22 unit?
23 A. The supervisor who was assigned oversight and support
24 responsibilities for Minneapolis was Supervisory Special Agent
25 Mike Maltbie.

927

1   Q. Okay. And when you sent that electronic communication to
2   Mr. Maltbie, what was it that your initial request was that you
3   wanted to do?
4   A. My request to Mr. Maltbie was to apply to the Office of
5   Intelligence Policy Review, to OIPR --
6   Q. That's in the Department of Justice. You talked about them
7   before, right?
8   A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
9   Q. What did you want them -- what did you want to occur?
10 A. I wanted them to grant permission to go to the United States
11 Attorney's Office in the District of Minnesota so that we could
12 pursue criminal charges.
13 Q. Are you trying to overcome the wall, so to speak?
14 A. Not overcome it. I'm trying to get permission to release
15 selected information over it. The wall will still exist, and that
16 will still be, certainly in August of 2001 will be a factor, but
17 what I'm trying to do is pass information to criminal
18 investigators so they can begin pursuing that type of
19 investigation.
20 Q. Okay. And were you given permission to do that?
21 A. I was not.
22 Q. Okay. And why is it -- were you told why it is you were not
23 given permission?
24 A. I was told that, that our headquarters, FBI headquarters,
25 Radical Fundamentalist Unit did not believe that sufficient

928

1   evidence of a crime existed, and also that there was a fear that
2   if we were to try and go for a criminal case, to pursue a criminal
3   search warrant initially, and then we had to go back and use
4   techniques under the intelligence world, that it might taint that.
5   Q. Let's step back for a second and talk about the search
6   warrant. What -- were you trying to get a search warrant?
7   A. I was.
8   Q. And -- now, we talked earlier when your testimony began about
9   the difference between a criminal investigation and a FISA, an
10 intelligence investigation. Is there a difference in terms of the
11 types of, at least back then in -- all my questions are designed
12 for August of 2001.
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Is there any difference -- was there any difference between
15 getting search warrants via the criminal route versus the FISA
16 route?
17 A. There was a large difference --
18 Q. Okay.
19 A. -- in those two.
20 Q. I want you to explain to the jurors how it is that in a
21 normal criminal case, let's say a bank robbery case or something
22 like that, that you would procure a search warrant to search, for
23 example, Mr. Moussaoui's bags.
24 A. Had it been a criminal search warrant, I would have applied
25 to the United States Attorney's Office, to an assistant United

929

1   States attorney. I would have presented them verbally and
2   probably in writing with the facts that we learned to date to give
3   probable cause to believe that a crime was being committed and
4   that the person, places, or items to be searched would yield
5   evidence of that crime.
6   I would prepare an affidavit which would be edited by an
7   assistant United States attorney, and then eventually that would
8   be taken, when the affidavit was in a condition agreeable to all,
9   that would be taken before a magistrate, sworn out, and then the
10 magistrate would either agree to sign it and grant the search
11 warrant, or not.
12 Q. And if the answer was not, were you able to search the items?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Now, could you tell us what happened -- of course, and if you
15 would get a search warrant approved by the magistrate, I guess you
16 could search the items; is that right?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. Now, could you tell us -- you've explained to us how that
19 worked back then in terms of the criminal world. Can you explain
20 to the jurors how that process worked for a FISA search warrant?
21 A. Under the, under the FISA law of 1978, which stands for
22 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, that's a technique used to,
23 to grant searches under an intelligence investigation. Under
24 FISA, we can apply for a search warrant, but instead of giving
25 evidence to a judge that there's a crime being committed, we need

930

1   to give evidence to a judge that the person who is the subject of
2   that search is acting as an agent of a foreign power, acting as an
3   agent of a terrorist group or foreign government.
4   Q. And is there a definition of what a foreign power or -- well,
5   obviously, we know what foreign governments are. Does the -- is
6   there a definition under law as to what a foreign power would
7   include?
8   MR. MAC MAHON: Excuse me, Your Honor. If he's a legal
9   expert, if he's going to tell them what's in the statute, that's
10 fine, but he can't give his interpretation of FISA law.
11 MR. NOVAK: Judge, it certainly is --
12 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Wait, excuse me. In the
13 course of your career before August of 2001, had you applied for
14 any kind of FISA warrants yourself?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor, I had.
16 THE COURT: How many times had you done that?
17 THE WITNESS: I'd applied three times prior to this
18 event.
19 THE COURT: All right. And had you received any
20 training by the FBI about the requirements to obtain a FISA
21 warrant?
22 THE WITNESS: I had.
23 THE COURT: This agent has adequate background to answer
24 those questions.
25 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Your Honor.

931

1   THE COURT: Objection overruled.
2   BY MR. NOVAK:
3   Q. And could you tell us then based upon your training and your
4   knowledge at that time what -- what it is that you needed to prove
5   to establish a foreign power?
6   A. We needed probable -- to establish that it was a foreign
7   power?
8   Q. Yes.
9   A. That it was a group comprised not substantially of United
10 States persons, of citizens or legal permanent residents -- that
11 it was any type of group not comprised of that. And typical
12 subjects of foreign power under the FISA that had been applied for
13 before were hostile foreign governments, terrorist groups.
14 Q. Okay. And does the -- in August of 2001, did the State
15 Department keep a list of groups that were designated as foreign
16 terrorist organizations?
17 A. They did.
18 Q. Was al Qaeda one of those groups?
19 A. It was.
20 Q. All right. Now, therefore, in order for you to, to procure
21 this FISA warrant, would you have to prove an affiliation between
22 the defendant and a, a specified terrorist organization?
23 A. Between the defendant and any terrorist group, yes.
24 Q. Now, now, you've told us what you need to prove to get that.
25 Could you tell us logistically the hoops that you have to jump

932

1   through --
2   THE COURT: I'm sorry. I think you need to be careful
3   in how you formulate the question. I don't think it's proof.
4   Isn't it just establish probable cause?
5   MR. MAC MAHON: As I was going to object, Your Honor.
6   That's a misleading question.
7   MR. NOVAK: I'll withdraw the question. That's fine.
8   THE COURT: All right.
9   BY MR. NOVAK:
10 Q. Could you tell us what the -- would you describe for us what
11 the process was then for you to go about procuring a FISA warrant
12 back in August of 2001?
13 A. Once my investigation had convinced myself and supervisors,
14 other agents working the case with me, that probable cause existed
15 to believe that the subject of that warrant -- of that search was
16 acting as an agent of a foreign power, then I would prepare an
17 electronic communication, an EC, and supporting documentation that
18 would go to the Radical Fundamentalist Unit, or the FBI
19 headquarters unit that was overseeing that investigation.
20 They would, they would take that information, they would
21 add whatever type -- whatever information they could to amplify
22 their request, and then they would take it to a headquarters unit,
23 FBI headquarters unit called the National Security Law Unit,
24 comprised of lawyers whose expertise is in the area of national
25 security law.

933

1   They would review it to ensure that probable cause did,
2   in fact, exist to establish that that person was acting as an
3   agent of a foreign power.
4   When that was in agreement and the FBI agreed that the
5   application had merit, it would then go to the Department of
6   Justice, OIPR, Office of Intelligence Policy Review, where it
7   would again be reviewed by attorneys, this time in the Department
8   of Justice outside the FBI, and again, when all parties agreed
9   that probable cause existed, it would go forward to the FISA court
10 in the form of a declaration.
11 Q. Okay.
12 A. Which a judge would sign or not.
13 Q. Is the FISA court a local judge then in Minnesota, or is that
14 somewhere else?
15 A. It's somewhere else.
16 Q. All right. And is it generally headquartered somewhere in
17 the Washington area, with affiliates around the country?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And, and even when the application goes to the FISA judge,
20 the FISA judge still has the decision whether to approve it or
21 disapprove it; is that right?
22 A. That's correct. There's many points along the way where it
23 can be forwarded and not forwarded. The ultimate person who
24 decides is a FISA court judge.
25 Q. All right. And can you explain why it is that, you know,

934

1   based upon your knowledge and your training, that there is this
2   difference between all the different layers that are necessary for
3   the FISA warrant as opposed for the lesser scrutiny on a criminal
4   search warrant?
5   A. Because of the -- it just precludes any even illusion that
6   there's a possibility that the FBI could abuse the intelligence
7   investigation process.
8   Q. And when you talk about abuse, what do you mean by that?
9   A. I mean if there's not enough information to, to establish a
10 criminal case, the Department of Justice and the Attorney General
11 have set up guidelines to prevent the FBI from applying for
12 intelligence techniques to circumvent that lack of evidence.
13 Q. The idea being if you don't have enough for a criminal
14 warrant, you don't use the ruse of going to get a FISA warrant
15 when you couldn't have gotten a criminal warrant?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Could you tell us if you were to try the old -- go to the
18 criminal warrant first and you didn't receive it, or if it was
19 disapproved, I should say, do you have an obligation to tell that
20 to the FISA judge if you were to go back and try the FISA route?
21 A. Yes, sir, absolutely.
22 Q. Now, could you tell us -- now, you first made an application,
23 you had indicated, to go to the U.S. Attorney's Office to share
24 criminal information so you could procure a search warrant; is
25 that right?

935

1   A. That is correct.
2   Q. And you told us that was denied; is that right?
3   A. FBI headquarters advice --
4   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I object. If the
5   headquarters wants to come in and say what they did with this
6   warrant, they can, but he can't give hearsay answers as to what he
7   was told and done by those people.
8   THE COURT: Well, he certainly can explain why he did
9   what he did or didn't do what he didn't do.
10 MR. MAC MAHON: He can, but he can't do it in a way
11 where, you know, we're not going to hear from these other agents
12 as to exactly what happened. To come in and say I was told this
13 or I was told that, he can say I did something after I was told
14 that, but we can't use this as a shadow witness, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. NOVAK: Judge, a couple responses on that. No. 1,
17 he's testifying as to what he did and what happened on his
18 request.
19 THE COURT: And you're not offering it for the truth of
20 its contents.
21 MR. NOVAK: Not offered for the truth, and I remind the
22 Court, we're in a penalty phase. The rules of evidence don't
23 apply, including hearsay rules. Simply the confrontation clause
24 rules would apply. That's certainly not, as they made in their
25 motion, as the Court is well aware --

936

1   THE COURT: Well, I've already ruled that the standard
2   rules of evidence don't apply. However, Crawford is a
3   different --
4   MR. NOVAK: Right. But there's nothing accusatory.
5   He's just establishing this is what happened on my efforts to try
6   to get a search warrant.
7   THE COURT: This is a fairly arcane legal discussion.
8   It's important for the lawyers; the jurors may not understand it.
9   Basically, traditionally hearsay evidence doesn't come into a
10 court of law, because it's not considered reliable unless it falls
11 into an exception.
12 Hearsay is an out-of-court statement that's being made
13 by someone other than the person who's in court who can be
14 questioned directly about it, so it's not considered reliable.
15 However, sometimes a witness can talk about what somebody else
16 said, not to try to establish that what that person said is true
17 or not true, but to explain why that person, the speaker in court,
18 takes certain actions. And I'm permitting the use of this
19 information in that non-hearsay way to explain why this agent then
20 did what he did or didn't do what he didn't do.
21 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge. Thank you.
22 Q. Now, I think I was asking, were you told then what the basis
23 was that the denial of the criminal search --
24 MR. MAC MAHON: That's a different question entirely.
25 Were you told what the basis was is the hearsay, Crawford, however

937

1   you want to characterize it in the arcane, that's impermissible.
2   MR. NOVAK: No, it's not.
3   THE COURT: Agent, did you take certain steps after you
4   were given the explanation as to why the warrant request was
5   turned down?
6   THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
7   THE COURT: Let's just go right there.
8   MR. NOVAK: All right, that's fine, Judge.
9   MR. MAC MAHON: Thank you, Your Honor.
10 MR. NOVAK: We'll move on.
11 BY MR. NOVAK:
12 Q. So after your request for the criminal search warrant, to go
13 with the criminal world, was denied, did you take steps to go in a
14 different direction in order to procure a search warrant for
15 Mr. Moussaoui's belongings?
16 A. Yes, sir, we did.
17 Q. And by the way, what is it that you specifically were trying
18 to search?
19 A. We were trying to search the property that had been brought
20 to Immigration, to the Immigration office.
21 Q. Those bags, those seven or eight bags that he had?
22 A. Bags and -- yes, sir. As well as the place where he was
23 staying in Norman, Oklahoma, the 209A Wadsack apartment.
24 Q. And why is it that you wanted to search that location?
25 A. Because we had reason to believe that he would have had other

938

1   items back there.
2   Q. All right. Now, could you tell us after you were denied the
3   search warrant, did you then -- the criminal search warrant, did
4   you then take steps in order to try to procure a FISA warrant?
5   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I object to the form of the
6   question. There's no evidence he was denied a criminal search
7   warrant. He was denied the ability to ask for one. It's a
8   misleading question.
9   THE COURT: Rephrase the question, MR. NOVAK.
10 BY MR. NOVAK:
11 Q. After you were denied the authority to seek a criminal search
12 warrant, did you take steps to try to get a FISA warrant?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Could you explain what it is that -- the steps that you took
15 in order to do so?
16 A. We, we shifted -- I personally shifted gears slightly,
17 because now the nature of the information that I need is
18 different. I no longer need to establish that, in fact, the
19 person is engaged in an ongoing crime, but rather that they're
20 doing any actions on behalf of a foreign power, that they are now
21 acting as an agent of a foreign power, and so the focus changed
22 slightly to that.
23 The substance of the interviews was still useful to some
24 extent and misleading to other extents, but the objective was the
25 same, was the search of those belongings.

939

1   Q. Well, and specifically factually, are you trying to connect
2   Mr. Moussaoui to a terrorist organization?
3   A. Yes, absolutely.
4   MR. NOVAK: And if we could put on the screen from GX-1
5   paragraph -- excuse me, Your Honor -- 4?
6   Q. Do you recall seeing this before, Agent Samit?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   Q. That being one of the statements that Mr. Moussaoui admitted
9   to during his statement of facts.
10 Had Mr. Moussaoui told you the truth as he admitted to
11 Judge Brinkema, could you have placed that information in a FISA
12 request?
13 A. Yes, sir. That would have been the centerpiece of a FISA
14 request. That would have established exactly the connection to a
15 foreign power.
16 Q. That you needed to get a FISA, is that correct?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. All right. Now, did you -- since you did get that
19 information, did you set about to try to gather information to
20 somehow connect Mr. Moussaoui to a recognized foreign terrorist
21 organization?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Now, directing your attention to August 23, earlier on in
24 your testimony, you had told us that you had made a request to
25 your -- to Jay Abbott, one of the French legats that the FBI has;

940

1   is that correct?
2   A. Yes, sir, the assistant legal attache in the Paris office.
3   Q. All right. And on August 23, did you get some information
4   back from your French legat?
5   A. I did.
6   Q. All right. And did you get information from Mr. Abbott
7   connecting Mr. Moussaoui to a dead Chechen fighter?
8   A. Yes, sir.
9   Q. Could you tell the folks what a Chechen fighter is?
10 A. Yes, sir. There was a conflict then going on in the former
11 Soviet -- the former Soviet, now Russian, region of Chechnya.
12 They were seeking independence from the Russian Federation and, in
13 fact, had seen an influx in the late '90s of foreign fighters from
14 various Muslim countries. A number of these soldiers were trained
15 in Afghanistan. They reported into Chechnya and began engaging
16 the Russians in military combat.
17 Q. They were rebels essentially; is that correct?
18 A. Yes, sir, they were supporting --
19 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection, Your Honor, to him
20 testifying.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 BY MR. NOVAK:
23 Q. Well, let me ask you this: You had told us that al Qaeda was
24 identified on a State Department list as a foreign terrorist
25 organization. Were Chechen rebels identified as a foreign

941

1   terrorist organization?
2   A. No, sir, they weren't.
3   Q. Now, on August 30, did you get additional information back
4   through your French legat?
5   A. Yes, sir.
6   Q. And did you get specific information about Mr. Moussaoui's
7   fundamentalism?
8   A. Yes.
9   Q. Could you describe what the extent of the information was
10 about his religious views?
11 A. That he was extreme, that he was -- had espoused violence,
12 that he attempted to recruit and convert others to both the
13 extreme view of Islam and to violence, and that he had followed
14 closely the Wahabi sect of Islam.
15 Q. Now, moving forward then -- by the way, in addition to trying
16 to gather this information about his background, did you also
17 follow his -- the lies that he told you to make investigative
18 leads to England?
19 A. Yes. At the expense of some other investigative leads that
20 we could have sent, yes.
21 Q. And on August 19, did you send a request to the English
22 government asking for them to do investigation on your behalf?
23 A. To our legal attache in London, yes, sir.
24 Q. Same type of thing you have in France, you've got one over
25 there in England?

942

1   A. Correct.
2   Q. And what type of information was it that you were trying to
3   gather in England?
4   A. The same type of information regarding associates, sources of
5   funding. The one that was sent to London to our legal attache
6   carried particular weight and detail because those are the items
7   not only that Mr. Moussaoui had disclosed to the associate, Ahmed
8   Atif, but he had done so in such a way in the interview that made
9   me believe that that was a person of significance.
10 Q. All right. You were following out whatever lead you had
11 basically; is that right?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. Now, on August 22, did you have -- receive information from
14 the Central Intelligence Agency?
15 A. I did.
16 Q. Now, does the Central Intelligence Agency have a different
17 role in the world of the intelligence community than the FBI?
18 A. It does.
19 Q. And in a general sense, can you describe what the difference
20 in role is?
21 A. The FBI is the domestic intelligence agency. We are
22 designed -- one of our missions is to gather intelligence,
23 national security information relevant to people within the United
24 States. The Central Intelligence Agency is assigned to do that
25 external to the United States.

943

1   Q. Now, on August 22, did you receive information -- further
2   information about connecting Mr. Moussaoui to the Chechen rebels?
3   A. Connecting Mr. Moussaoui to the Chechen rebels?
4   Q. Well, what information did you get back from -- summarizing
5   what you got from the CIA at that time?
6   A. I received information from them that Mr. Moussaoui's dead
7   associate was connected to the leader of the Chechen rebels by
8   name, and that that --
9   Q. Who is the -- what name did you receive of the leader of the
10 Chechen rebels?
11 A. Ibn Khattab.
12 Q. Okay. Do you want to spell that?
13 A. I-b-n K-h-a-t-t-a-b.
14 Q. Okay. Did you receive any other information about Ibn
15 Khattab, the leader of the Chechen rebels?
16 A. From the Central Intelligence Agency I learned that Ibn
17 Khattab and Usama Bin Laden had had a relationship based on their
18 past history.
19 Q. Okay. Did you receive any information about Mr. Moussaoui
20 being a member of al Qaeda?
21 A. No.
22 Q. At any point, did you ever receive any information about
23 Mr. Moussaoui being a member of al Qaeda?
24 A. Prior to the, the attacks? No.
25 Q. Now, did you continue to try to accumulate the information

944

1   that you had gotten through your French legat and from the Central
2   Intelligence Agency in terms of pursuing your FISA warrant?
3   A. Yes. It was, it was the obsession of our squad, of the Joint
4   Terrorism Task Force, was doing just that.
5   Q. When you say obsession, could you tell us what do you mean by
6   that?
7   A. I mean that on the basis of the interviews that Special Agent
8   Weess and myself had done on the 16th and the 17th, we were
9   convinced that Mr. Moussaoui was involved in some type of plot,
10 and so all of our energies were directed at accumulating whatever
11 was required, evidence or intelligence, to get into his belongings
12 and search them for information as to what was going to happen.
13 Q. Now, at some point, your request to get a FISA search warrant
14 was denied by your headquarters; is that right?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. Okay. Do you know approximately when that was?
17 A. Approximately August 28.
18 Q. All right. At the time that your request for a search
19 warrant was denied, could you explain to us what was the extent of
20 the information that you had available that connected you to a
21 terrorist organization?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. Or Mr. Moussaoui, I'm sorry.
24 A. Yes, sir. We had information from our legat in Paris that
25 Mr. Moussaoui had recruited this fighter for the Chechens who had

945

1   since been killed in Chechnya, that that fighter, in fact, was
2   connected to Ibn Khattab, who was the leader of the Chechen
3   fighters.
4   The CIA was able to confirm that information and also to
5   provide information that Ibn Khattab and Usama Bin Laden had a
6   relationship.
7   Q. So to get to the proof of al Qaeda, you were trying to go
8   through Moussaoui's friend to the leader of the Chechens, from the
9   leader of the Chechens to al Qaeda; is that right?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. If Mr. Moussaoui told you what was in paragraph 4 that we
12 showed you, would you have needed to do that?
13 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I'm going to object. It's a
14 misleading question, that anybody at the government ever even
15 looked at a warrant or even a warrant request along the lines that
16 MR. NOVAK just described.
17 THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait. It's more appropriate --
18 I don't think that question got into that at all, but I think this
19 is areas for cross examination, but this question is not
20 objectionable.
21 MR. MAC MAHON: Okay.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 MR. MAC MAHON: All right.
24 BY MR. NOVAK:
25 Q. So had Mr. Moussaoui said, as he did before this Court, that

946

1   he was a member of al Qaeda, would you have had to try that
2   circuitous route in order to try to get to al Qaeda?
3   A. Absolutely not.
4   Q. The designated organization?
5   A. In fact, if he had answered our specific questions as to what
6   group he was a member of, who his associates were, it would have
7   met the foreign power standard immediately.
8   Q. Now, after the FISA request was denied by your headquarters,
9   did they relay to you why it was that they were denying it?
10 A. They did.
11 Q. And what was that?
12 A. They informed that --
13 MR. MAC MAHON: Objection, Your Honor, as to why --
14 first of all, the question is misleading that a warrant was ever
15 presented to anybody. If he wants to clarify that, he can, but
16 then to get the hearsay about what happened to it is
17 inappropriate.
18 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit the government to
19 use hearsay in this case.
20 MR. NOVAK: That's fine. I'll move on.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 MR. NOVAK: All right.
23 Q. Let me ask you this: At any point, were you able to satisfy
24 your headquarters' demands as to the proof as to what the foreign
25 power was?

947

1   A. No.
2   Q. All right. Now, after your headquarters denied your efforts
3   to try to get a FISA warrant, did you come up with a different
4   plan in order to try to get a search into Mr. Moussaoui's bags, at
5   least his bags that he had with him?
6   A. Yes, sir.
7   Q. And what was that plan?
8   A. Through consultation with our legal attache's office in
9   Paris, we learned that the French government had an interest in
10 Mr. Moussaoui and, in fact, that they were willing to accept his
11 being deported there with the provision of French law that his
12 belongings could be searched upon his arrival.
13 Q. Now, you could lawfully deport him already based upon his
14 overstay in the visa waiver program; is that right?
15 A. Yes, sir, that's correct.
16 Q. And through this series of days thereafter, did you set up
17 plans in order to do so?
18 A. We did. We worked -- that became the primary focus. We kept
19 the other options, obviously mindful of the criminal and of the
20 intelligence, the FISA option as well, but our primary focus then
21 became the deportation of Mr. Moussaoui to France in order to
22 allow his goods to be -- his property to be -- property to be
23 searched.
24 Q. And when was that finally approved by all parties, that that
25 was -- that that could occur?

948

1   A. On the afternoon of September 10, 2001.
2   Q. And, and Mr. Moussaoui obviously as of September 11 had not
3   been sent back to France; is that right?
4   A. That's correct.
5   Q. When was that to occur, do you know?
6   A. In the very near future. We had received authority to begin
7   planning for that on the afternoon of September 10. Obviously,
8   the time difference being what it was, the legal attache's office
9   in Paris was closed, so that next morning, we were going to set up
10 the logistics, but it was going to be a matter of days.
11 Q. And the whole purpose of that plan was in order to allow you
12 to search his stuff; is that right?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. Now, in addition to taking those precautions, at any point
15 did you ask your headquarters to notify the FAA about the threat
16 that Mr. Moussaoui posed?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. And on August 31, did you send what is known as an LHM to
19 Mr. Maltbie in the RFU unit?
20 A. I did.
21 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what an LHM is in the jargon of
22 the FBI?
23 A. An LHM stands for letterhead memorandum, and a letterhead
24 memorandum is a document authored by someone in the FBI that is
25 intended to be released outside of the FBI, whether it's to

949

1   another law enforcement agency in the United States, to another
2   member of the intelligence community, or to a friendly foreign
3   government.
4   Q. And why is it that you wanted your headquarters to notify FAA
5   about what was happening with Mr. Moussaoui?
6   A. Because of the, our investigative theory that he was involved
7   in a plan to hijack a commercial airliner.
8   Q. And on September 5 of 2001, do you know if your headquarters
9   did, in fact, make that notification?
10 A. They did. In fact, our headquarters issued a teletype, a
11 message to a number of other government agencies, to include the
12 FAA.
13 Q. Now, in addition to what you requested your headquarters to
14 do, were you so concerned about the FAA being notified that you
15 took steps on your own as a local guy on the ground out in
16 Minnesota to make sure the FAA knew what was going on with
17 Mr. Moussaoui?
18 A. Yes, sir. Special Agent Weess and myself on September 5 went
19 to the FAA investigators in the Twin Cities, in Minneapolis-St.
20 Paul, and provided them a personal briefing on the contents of the
21 teletype, as well as case agent perspective on what we believed
22 was actually going on.
23 Q. And did that include the lies that he had told you on August
24 16 and August 17?
25 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, that's argumentative. If

950

1   he's going to the statement of facts again, did it include what he
2   told them? Did it include the lies? It couldn't have included
3   the lies, Your Honor.
4   THE COURT: I'm going to overrule the objection, but be
5   careful. I don't want questions being argumentative or overly --
6   MR. NOVAK: That's fine, Judge, yes.
7   Q. Did you tell the FAA the things that Mr. Moussaoui told you
8   on August 16 --
9   A. We did. We were only able to report what he told us.
10 Q. Had Mr. Moussaoui told you the things that in the statement
11 of facts he admitted in front of this Court, for example, that he
12 was part of a plot to fly planes into buildings, could you have
13 supplied that information to the FAA on September 5 as well?
14 A. Absolutely. It would have gone much sooner, obviously, but
15 yes, we would have been in a position to do that.
16 Q. Well, why would it have been smoother? What would you have
17 done?
18 A. We would have notified them immediately, along with other
19 members of the intelligence community, FBI headquarters, FBI New
20 York. Within minutes of Mr. Moussaoui disclosing any of those --
21 answering any of those questions truthfully, that information
22 would have been forwarded to, to every member of the intelligence
23 community, and especially the FAA.
24 Q. And why especially the FAA?
25 A. They're responsible for the safety of airplanes, commercial

951

1   aviation.
2   Q. Now, you never did get your search warrant to search
3   Mr. Moussaoui's belongings; is that right?
4   A. That's correct.
5   Q. Until September 11, is that correct?
6   A. Correct.
7   Q. You want to tell the ladies and gentlemen what happened on
8   September 11?
9   A. The attacks, the terrorist attacks in Pennsylvania, New York,
10 and Washington, D.C.
11 Q. And as a result of those attacks, those crimes occurring,
12 were you then authorized to go get a criminal search warrant?
13 A. Yes, sir.
14 Q. And did you go that very day, September 11, to the United
15 States Attorney's Office in Minneapolis and procure a search
16 warrant?
17 A. Within minutes of our being granted permission, I was on my
18 way to the United States Attorney's Office at full speed, yes,
19 sir.
20 Q. And did the U.S. Attorney's Office help you and your brother
21 agents to get a search warrant then signed by a United States
22 magistrate judge?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And who authorized that search warrant?
25 A. Who authorized --

952

1   Q. Who's the judge that --
2   A. Oh, the Honorable J. Earl Cudd, U.S. Magistrate.
3   Q. Now, after you got a search warrant, now you had the legal
4   ability to go in and search Mr. Moussaoui's items; is that right?
5   A. Yes, sir.
6   Q. And did you do so?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   Q. Can you tell the folks what it is that you did finally with
9   those bags that he had stored in INS for those three weeks?
10 A. Special Agent Weess went down to Immigration and was, was
11 responding lights and sirens to bring those bags to the FBI office
12 at full speed. The warrant was signed, and I had an FBI
13 organization within our office called the evidence response team,
14 agents who are specially trained in evidence recovery, standing
15 by.
16 When the goods arrived, when the personal property
17 arrived and the warrant arrived, the evidence response team under
18 my direction immediately began executing the search warrant.
19 Q. And let me ask you this: During this time period where
20 you're making all these efforts to get the search warrant that
21 doesn't occur until September 11, where is Mr. Moussaoui at this
22 time?
23 A. He's in Sherburn County jail.
24 Q. And at any time from the time he spoke to you on August 17
25 until September 11, did he ever call you up or make any outreach

953

1   to you to say, hey, I lied, let me fix this?
2   MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, I object to that. He
3   invoked the right to counsel.
4   THE COURT: I'm sustaining that objection. MR. NOVAK,
5   that was not proper.
6   MR. NOVAK: All right.
7   THE COURT: The jury should disregard the question.
8   BY MR. NOVAK:
9   Q. Now, let's go back to the search for a second, and let me ask
10 you, you seized a number of items from the search of his bags; is
11 that correct?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 MR. NOVAK: If I could show the witness Exhibit No.
14 MN-503, please? Which I would offer into evidence.
15 THE COURT: Any objection to 503?
16 MR. MAC MAHON: I think the knife -- no, no objection,
17 Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
19 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-503 was received in
20 evidence.)
21 MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photo of it as well, do
22 we? Bad guess on my part.
23 Q. Let's go back to MN-503 for a second. Do you want to hold
24 that up?
25 Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen what that item is?

954

1   A. It's a knife.
2   Q. Okay. And does it unfold as well?
3   A. It does, yes, sir.
4   Q. And I gather that blade is less than 4 inches. We don't have
5   to get the ruler out for that, do we?
6   A. It is.
7   Q. All right. And where did you find that knife?
8   A. In one of Mr. Moussaoui's bags.
9   Q. Okay. Do you want to put that down?
10 If we could move to item MN-504, please?
11 THE COURT: Any objection?
12 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Excuse me.
15 MR. NOVAK: We have a picture of this one, too, Judge,
16 I'll show on the screen.
17 THE COURT: Is that a 504P then?
18 MR. NOVAK: Yes. Could we introduce that as well,
19 MN-504P?
20 THE COURT: Yes.
21 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-504 and MN-504P were
22 received in evidence.)
23 BY MR. NOVAK:
24 Q. Now, could you tell the ladies and gentlemen what item MN-504
25 is?

955

1   A. It's two utility tools, like pliers and various tools, but
2   also having knife blades in them.
3   Q. Could you open it up to show us what the knife blades are?
4   A. (Indicating.)
5   Q. And are those knife blades also under 4 inches?
6   A. They are, yes, sir.
7   Q. And where did you recover that item?
8   A. These were also in a bag of Mr. Moussaoui's.
9   Q. And how many are there?
10 A. There's two.
11 Q. Kind of a bigger one and a little one?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 MR. NOVAK: Judge, could we have Mr. Wood just show it
14 to the jury a little closer? Is that possible?
15 THE COURT: Yeah. Could you take both of them,
16 Mr. Wood?
17 (Indicating.)
18 MR. NOVAK: If you could, put that aside, Mr. Wood.
19 Thank you for doing that for us.
20 Could we show the witness Exhibit MN-505, which I would
21 also offer into evidence?
22 THE COURT: Any objection?
23 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: It's in.
25 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-505 was received in

956

1   evidence.)
2   MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photo there, so I would
3   offer MN-505P as well.
4   THE COURT: All right, that's in as well.
5   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-505P was received in
6   evidence.)
7   BY MR. NOVAK:
8   Q. Do you want to take those items out and tell the folks what
9   they are?
10 A. These are boxing gloves, fighting gloves.
11 Q. Okay. And could you tell us where did you seize those from?
12 A. These were in a bag of Mr. Moussaoui's.
13 Q. Now, by the way, when you had gone into the hotel room, had
14 you ever seen anything like that laying out anywhere?
15 A. I had, yes, sir.
16 Q. This is when you first had contact with Mr. Moussaoui and
17 Mr. Al-Attas?
18 A. It is that first evening on the evening of August 16.
19 Mr. Al-Attas had an identical set of gloves like this.
20 Q. Thank you. If we could show the witness MN-506, please,
21 which I would also offer?
22 THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. MacMahon?
23 MR. MAC MAHON: No, no objection to the shin guards.
24 MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photo, so I'd offer
25 MN-506P as well, Your Honor.

957

1   THE COURT: All right, that's in as well.
2   (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-506 and MN-506P were
3   received in evidence.)
4   BY MR. NOVAK:
5   Q. Can you tell the folks what that is, Agent Samit?
6   A. These are shin guards.
7   Q. And for what?
8   A. Well, they can be used for sports, but in this case,
9   Mr. Al-Attas informed me that they were being used for fighting
10 training.
11 Q. Okay. And where did you seize those items from?
12 A. These were seized from the same bag that contained the boxing
13 gloves.
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. Mr. Al-Attas also had an identical set of these.
16 THE COURT: Thank you, Agent Samit.
17 If we could show the witness MN-507, please?
18 THE COURT: Any objection?
19 MR. NOVAK: Which I would offer that as well.
20 MR. MAC MAHON: The Court's indulgence, Your Honor?
21 No objection.
22 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
23 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-507 was received in
24 evidence.)
25 THE COURT: Is there a photograph also for that?

958

1   MR. NOVAK: I'd offer MN-507P in as well, Your Honor.
2   THE COURT: Yes, they're both in.
3   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-507P was received in
4   evidence.)
5   BY MR. NOVAK:
6   Q. What have you got there, Agent Samit?
7   A. These are a set of 8-by-21 field binoculars.
8   Q. Okay. And what relevance at all does that have to your
9   terrorism investigation?
10 A. It could be used by a pilot for target recognition.
11 Q. Okay. Put that aside.
12 Now, where did you find those?
13 A. They were in a backpack.
14 Q. Okay. Showing you Exhibits MN-508.1 and 508.2, which we
15 referenced earlier, the red books?
16 THE COURT: Those are already in, aren't they?
17 MR. NOVAK: Yeah, they're in, Judge.
18 Q. Did you seize those as well, Agent Samit?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Those are the operating manual for a 747-400?
21 A. They are the aircraft operating manual volumes 1 and 2.
22 Q. Where did you seize those from?
23 A. Those were in a bag in Mr. Moussaoui's room.
24 Q. Okay. Showing you Exhibit MN-509 -- which I would offer.
25 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection to any of his belongings

959

1   that were searched and seized, Your Honor.
2   THE COURT: All right, that's fine.
3   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-509 was received in
4   evidence.)
5   THE WITNESS: This is the 747-400 cockpit operating
6   manual.
7   MR. NOVAK: I think we have a photo of that as well, so
8   I'd offer the P version of that, too.
9   THE COURT: That's fine. They're both in.
10 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-509P was received in
11 evidence.)
12 BY MR. NOVAK:
13 Q. Thank you, Agent Samit.
14 If you could show the witness MN-510? Which we have a
15 photo of, so I'd offer that as well as the P exhibit.
16 THE COURT: Any objection?
17 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection.
18 THE COURT: All right, 510 and P are both in.
19 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-510 and MN-510P were
20 received in evidence.)
21 BY MR. NOVAK:
22 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what are these items?
23 A. These were newly purchased hiking boots.
24 Q. Okay. Could you tell us in addition -- and where did you
25 find those particular boots?

960

1   A. These were in a bag among Mr. Moussaoui's belongings.
2   Q. Did you notice if Mr. Al-Attas had bought similar types of
3   boots?
4   A. He did, sir.
5   Q. Okay. And did you see that in the hotel that day that you
6   contacted him?
7   A. I did.
8   Q. All right. Moving on to -- by the way, was either one of
9   them wearing these boots that they had just bought?
10 A. No.
11 Q. What kind of shoes was Mr. Moussaoui wearing at the time that
12 you had contact?
13 A. Just casual loafer, slipper-type shoes.
14 Q. Okay. And by the way, he's up there in Minnesota in August;
15 is that right?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. We've already established the fact it's not snowing up there
18 in August; is that right?
19 A. It's warm there, sir.
20 MR. MAC MAHON: These questions are argumentative. Do
21 you want us to move this along and to ask some questions?
22 Counsel is arguing to the jury.
23 MR. NOVAK: I asked him if it was snowing.
24 THE COURT: I don't think snowing in August is
25 argumentative, Mr. MacMahon. I overrule the objection.

961

1   BY MR. NOVAK:
2   Q. Was it snowing in August in Minnesota?
3   A. No, sir.
4   THE COURT: Now, that now is cumulative, so let's move
5   on.
6   MR. NOVAK: All right. If we could show the witness
7   MN-551.1.
8   THE COURT: 555.1?
9   MR. NOVAK: 1.1.
10 THE COURT: Is there a photograph of that, too, or not?
11 MR. NOVAK: Judge, excuse me, can I talk to Gerard for
12 one second?
13 Judge, I'm told that, for Mr. Wood's benefit, that this
14 evidence is in that box on the floor under the table, to the
15 right.
16 THE COURT: This is the laptop?
17 MR. NOVAK: Yes.
18 Q. Is that the laptop?
19 A. Yes, sir. This is the laptop case, with a laptop inside.
20 Q. And is that the laptop that you had asked him consent for
21 that he had denied search?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 MR. NOVAK: We'd offer that, 551.1, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
25 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.

962

1   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-551.1 was received in
2   evidence.)
3   BY MR. NOVAK:
4   Q. And 551.2 is what? The case, right?
5   Agent Samit, you've got the laptop, the laptop case,
6   computer cords, and software that have been marked 551.1, 551.2,
7   551.3, and 551.4; is that right?
8   A. Yes, sir.
9   Q. I just move for all of those, Judge, instead of us rooting
10 through that box. I think it's easier just -- I just move for the
11 admission.
12 MR. MAC MAHON: And I still don't have an objection.
13 THE COURT: That's fine.
14 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-551.2, MN-551.3, and
15 MN-551.4 were received in evidence.)
16 MR. NOVAK: I'd like to show the witness Exhibit MN-601,
17 please.
18 THE COURT: Is there an objection to 601?
19 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
21 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-601 was received in
22 evidence.)
23 BY MR. NOVAK:
24 Q. Okay. Could you tell the folks what that item is? Well,
25 I'll ask you to get it out of there first.

963

1   And I think we have a picture, so I'm going to move in
2   601P.
3   THE COURT: All right, that's in as well.
4   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-601P was received in
5   evidence.)
6   THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It's a small spiral-bound
7   notebook.
8   BY MR. NOVAK:
9   Q. Now, within that small spiral-bound notebook, were you able
10 to look through to see if there were names and telephone numbers
11 in it?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And I would like to show you Exhibit, specifically MN-601.1.
14 And I think that's been marked for a photograph that's within the
15 document. Have you got that?
16 A. Yes, sir, I have it right here.
17 Q. Is that a piece of paper that was along with that notebook?
18 A. Yes, sir. It was contained within that notebook.
19 Q. All right. And could you tell us -- first of all, I'd move
20 for the admission of 601.1 and 601.1P, Your Honor.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. MAC MAHON: No.
23 THE COURT: They're both in.
24 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-601.1 and MN-601.1P were
25 received in evidence.)

964

1   BY MR. NOVAK:
2   Q. All right. Could you tell us, Agent Samit, what is it that
3   is written on this piece of paper?
4   A. Two telephone numbers beginning with 49, which I understand
5   to be the country code for Germany.
6   Q. Right.
7   A. The name "Ahad Sabet," and then the word "Germany."
8   MR. NOVAK: All right. If we could show the witness,
9   going back to exhibit, Government Exhibit No. 1, paragraph 14 from
10 the statement of facts.
11 Q. And I will ask you as that is brought to the screen, at any
12 point during the interview, had Mr. Moussaoui discussed with you
13 any phone numbers for this fellow named Ahad Sabet?
14 A. No.
15 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, that's asked and answered
16 now for the third time. Ahad Sabet's name didn't come up, and he
17 wasn't told Ahad Sabet's name.
18 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain that objection.
19 MR. NOVAK: I'll withdraw it.
20 THE COURT: That's cumulative.
21 MR. NOVAK: All right. If we could move on to MN-601.2,
22 please.
23 THE COURT: Is there a P for this as well?
24 MR. NOVAK: I guess there is, so I'm going to ask
25 that -- I offer 601.2 and P.

965

1   THE COURT: They're both in.
2   (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-601.2 and MN-601.2P were
3   received in evidence.)
4   BY MR. NOVAK:
5   Q. And can you tell us what that -- do you have it there?
6   A. Yes, sir, I do.
7   Q. Okay. Do you want to hold that up and tell the folks what
8   that is?
9   A. It's a page from that notebook, and it has a German telephone
10 number, a second German telephone number with the word "fax"
11 written next to it.
12 Q. Okay. If we could move on to MN-601.3, please?
13 THE COURT: And there's a P for that one as well, and I
14 assume there's no objection.
15 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
16 THE COURT: Is this whole 601 series pages from the
17 notebook?
18 MR. MAC MAHON: That's my understanding, Your Honor.
19 MR. NOVAK: Right. And I'm going to stop right now with
20 this.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. NOVAK: It's going to be the last 601. After we
23 read this, Judge, I'm going to try to do it in a much more
24 economical fashion here.
25 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-601.3 and MN-601.3P were

966

1   received in evidence.)
2   BY MR. NOVAK:
3   Q. Can you tell the folks what this particular piece of paper
4   is?
5   A. This contains specification serial numbers for what looks
6   like a Toshiba computer.
7   Q. All right. Moving on now to Exhibit No. 603, please.
8   A. It's a scrap of paper with two telephone numbers on it.
9   Q. Okay. And do you -- first of all, I would move for the
10 admission of MN-603, please.
11 THE COURT: Any objection to 603?
12 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
13 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
14 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-603 was received in
15 evidence.)
16 BY MR. NOVAK:
17 Q. And are you able to tell from the numbers there, those
18 telephone numbers go to what country?
19 A. The top one appears to be a U.K., United Kingdom, London
20 exchange. I don't know about the bottom one.
21 Q. All right. Why is it that you say the top one is for United
22 Kingdom?
23 A. 207 I was familiar with as being a London exchange.
24 Q. Okay. Now, if we could move on to Exhibits MN-604.1 and
25 604.2.

967

1   THE COURT: Any objection?
2   MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
3   THE COURT: They're both in.
4   (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-604.1 and 604.2 were
5   received in evidence.)
6   BY MR. NOVAK:
7   Q. And I would just ask you, are those rent receipts that you
8   found in the name of Zacarias Moussaoui?
9   A. Yes, sir. The one, 604.2, just says "Moussaoui."
10 Q. Okay. And does it provide an address for those rent
11 receipts?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And what was the address for those rent receipts?
14 A. 823 Monnett, South.
15 Q. Okay. And where was that located at?
16 A. In Norman, Oklahoma.
17 Q. All right. If we could move to 605.1 and .2, please?
18 THE COURT: Any objection?
19 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
20 THE COURT: All right, they're in as well.
21 (Government's Exhibit Nos. MN-605.1 and MN-605.2 were
22 received in evidence.)
23 BY MR. NOVAK:
24 Q. Do you see those items, Agent Samit?
25 A. Yes, sir.

968

1   Q. And are those electric service bills?
2   A. They are utility bills for that --
3   Q. That same address?
4   A. For that same address.
5   Q. Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Moussaoui had any contact with
6   this address in Oklahoma, the Monnett, South?
7   A. No, sir.
8   MR. NOVAK: If we can move on to Exhibit MN-606, please.
9   And we'd offer that as well.
10 THE COURT: Any objection?
11 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
13 BY MR. NOVAK:
14 Q. Do you just want to tell the Court what that is?
15 A. I don't think I have 606 here.
16 Q. All right.
17 MR. MAC MAHON: I may have an objection if he doesn't
18 have it, Your Honor.
19 (Laughter.)
20 MR. NOVAK: I'll tell you what, Judge, I don't want to
21 slow down. I'll just move on. That's not the most important
22 document here, so we'll come back to it if he can't find it.
23 Q. Let me ask you while he's looking, during your search, did
24 you come up with automobile insurance documents under
25 Mr. Moussaoui's name for a Ford Tempo?

969

1   A. For a Ford Tempo, yes, sir.
2   Q. Yeah. And would that have been the item that's marked 606?
3   A. I don't, I don't know. It's not here.
4   Q. All right, we'll come back to that later on.
5   Showing the witness MN-607--
6   THE COURT: At this point, 606 is not in evidence.
7   MR. NOVAK: Yes, Judge.
8   THE COURT: 607, is there any objection to 607?
9   MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor. No, Your Honor.
10 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-607 was received in
11 evidence.)
12 BY MR. NOVAK:
13 Q. Do you find 607 there?
14 A. Yes, sir, I have it here.
15 Q. Can you tell the ladies and gentlemen what Exhibit MN-607 is?
16 A. It is a Kinko's, receipt for Kinko's in Eagan, Minnesota.
17 Q. Dated what date?
18 A. Dated August 12, 2001.
19 Q. Exhibit MN-608, which I would offer --
20 A. I have it here.
21 THE COURT: Any objection?
22 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: All right, it's in.
24 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-608 was received in
25 evidence.)

970

1   BY MR. NOVAK:
2   Q. Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen what MN-608 is,
3   please?
4   A. It's a guest pass to the YMCA of greater St. Paul for the
5   Residence Inn.
6   Q. And do you know if that YMCA has physical fitness training
7   there?
8   A. It does. It has a weight room and the ability to conduct
9   that.
10 Q. Okay. Showing you MN-610, which I would offer.
11 A. I have it.
12 THE COURT: Any objection?
13 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Judge.
14 THE COURT: That's in.
15 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-610 was received in
16 evidence.)
17 BY MR. NOVAK:
18 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what MN-610 is?
19 A. That is a hotel bill for the Residence Inn at the -- in
20 Norman, Oklahoma.
21 Q. All right.
22 A. In the name of Zacarias Moussaoui for the dates -- for the
23 date 23 February '01.
24 Q. Okay. As I move on to MN-611, which I think you have there,
25 I would ask Mr. Wood, I am told that MN-606 might be in a box on

971

1   the floor, but I'll ask you, Agent Samit, to look for MN-611, if
2   you might.
3   A. I don't think that's in here, either.
4   Q. Okay. We'll wait then for Mr. Wood.
5   A. Here's 606, yes.
6   Q. What's MN-606?
7   A. This is insurance paperwork pertaining -- in the name of
8   Zacarias Moussaoui pertaining to a 1989 Ford Tempo.
9   Q. Did you know before you searched that day that he had owned a
10 car before?
11 A. He had told us that he had a Ford Tempo. I didn't have the
12 specifics on it.
13 Q. Okay. Now, I think we're back to MN-611.
14 Judge, I'm sorry, I think I omitted to move in MN-606.
15 THE COURT: There was no objection now that we've found
16 the exhibit, so 606 is in.
17 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-606 was received in
18 evidence.)
19 THE COURT: We're up to 611. Is there any objection to
20 611?
21 MR. MAC MAHON: No, Judge, thank you.
22 THE COURT: All right, that's in.
23 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-611 was received in
24 evidence.)
25 BY MR. NOVAK:

972

1   Q. Do you want to tell us what 611 is?
2   A. We don't have it yet.
3   Q. Oh, you don't have it? Okay.
4   MR. NOVAK: Judge, I think Mr. Francisco could aid
5   finding some of these items, if Mr. Wood would like the help.
6   THE COURT: You know, I'm looking at a lot of these, and
7   I don't think we even need to take up the jury's time with this.
8   They're not objected to, and we could just move them in down the
9   road. Why don't we continue --
10 MR. NOVAK: That's fine if we could do it that way. Can
11 I just collectively -- look, we've made all the exhibits available
12 to the defense. They have the list. If I could just collectively
13 move -- I'll just read off the numbers?
14 THE COURT: Read it slowly, yeah.
15 And, Mr. MacMahon, unless you stand up and say --
16 MR. MAC MAHON: There's been a trend to my objections,
17 Your Honor.
18 THE COURT: I know. I know. And most of these are
19 just, as I can see from your list of them, they're confirming
20 residencies at hotels --
21 MR. NOVAK: That's fine.
22 THE COURT: -- rentals of post office boxes, that kind
23 of stuff, over which there apparently is no dispute.
24 MR. NOVAK: That's fine. We just want to make sure this
25 evidence is entered. I'll just read off the numbers if I might,

973

1   Your Honor. I'll try to do it slowly.
2   THE COURT: All right. You stopped at 611.
3   MR. NOVAK: MN-611.
4   THE COURT: All right. Go ahead.
5   MR. NOVAK: MN-612.1.
6   THE COURT: Go ahead.
7   MR. NOVAK: MN-612.2.
8   THE COURT: Go ahead.
9   MR. NOVAK: MN-613.
10 THE COURT: Go ahead.
11 MR. NOVAK: MN-614.
12 THE COURT: And .1 and .2?
13 MR. NOVAK: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Go ahead.
15 MR. NOVAK: MN-615; MN-616; MN-617 and 617.1, .2, .3,
16 and .4; 618.
17 THE COURT: All right, go ahead.
18 MR. NOVAK: 619, 620.1 and .2. And I'd like to ask some
19 questions of the witness on that if I might, Judge. That is
20 something that I'd like to bring up. May I do so now, or do you
21 want me to come back to that?
22 THE COURT: Why don't you just finish them so then we
23 can just go to the questions.
24 MR. NOVAK: Okay. MN-621.
25 THE COURT: All right.

974

1   MR. NOVAK: MN-622; MN-623; MN-624; MN-625.1, .2, .3;
2   MN-626.1 and .2; MN-627; MN-628; MN-629.1, .2, .3; MN-630.1, .2,
3   .3, and .4.
4   MN-633; MN-634; MN-637; MN-638; MN-639.1, .10, .11, .12,
5   .13, .14, .2, .3, .5, .6 --
6   THE COURT: I'm sorry, not .4?
7   MR. NOVAK: We already introduced that, Judge, earlier.
8   THE COURT: Okay. It's already in.
9   MR. NOVAK: .6, .7, .8, .9. MN-640; MN-641; MN-642.1,
10 .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7. MN --
11 MR. MAC MAHON: Hold on one second.
12 (Discussion between attorneys off the record.)
13 MR. NOVAK: Judge, I'm representing to Mr. MacMahon that
14 all these items were found by Agent Samit in Mr. Moussaoui's
15 contents.
16 THE COURT: In his bags?
17 MR. NOVAK: In his bags.
18 MR. MAC MAHON: Just being sure we're not dealing with
19 documents from another search.
20 MR. NOVAK: I just want to put in the record, he's
21 whispering to me, I just want to make it clear what it is that I'm
22 responding to.
23 And now I lost my number.
24 THE COURT: The last one was 642.7.
25 MR. NOVAK: Okay. 6.3.01.

975

1   THE COURT: No, no, 643.
2   MR. NOVAK: Yeah, 643.01, 643.02, .03, 04, 05, 06, 07,
3   08, 09, and .10.
4   644; 645.1 and .2; 646; 647; 648; 649; 650; 651; 652;
5   653.1, .2; 654.1, .2; 655.1; 655.2; 656; 657; 658; 659.1, .2;
6   660.1 and .2; 661.1, .2, .3; 662.1 and .2 and .3; 663.1 and .2;
7   664; 666 --
8   THE COURT: Because 665 is already in, right?
9   MR. NOVAK: Right. I think -- well, no, I think --
10 THE COURT: Or did you miss that one?
11 MR. NOVAK: I think I just did not introduce that one,
12 Judge. 667 --
13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, are you trying to put in 665 as
14 well?
15 MR. NOVAK: No, no.
16 THE COURT: All right.
17 MR. NOVAK: I'm sorry, 666, 667, 668, 669, 670, 671,
18 672, 674 --
19 THE COURT: All right, not 673?
20 MR. NOVAK: No.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. NOVAK: 676.1 and .2.
23 Now, Judge, there are a couple of these items that we --
24 again, all those items were recovered from Mr. Moussaoui's bags,
25 and I'd like to go back and refer -- get some detailed testimony

976

1   on a couple of the items if I might.
2   MR. MAC MAHON: No objection to any of them.
3   THE COURT: Just for the record, all the ones that were
4   just listed BY MR. NOVAK are in evidence.
5   MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
6   MR. MAC MAHON: All right.
7   (Government's Exhibits Nos. MN-612.1, MN-612.2, MN-613,
8   MN-614, MN-614.1, MN-614.2, MN-615, MN-616, MN-617, MN-617.1
9   through MN-617.4, MN-618, MN-619, MN-620.1, MN-620.2, MN-621,
10 MN-622, MN-623, MN-624, MN-625.1 through MN-625.3, MN-626.1,
11 MN-626.2, MN-627, MN-628, MN-629.1 through MN-629.3, MN-630.1
12 through MN-630.4, MN-633, MN-634, MN-637, MN-638, MN-639.1,
13 MN-639.10 through MN-639.14, MN-639.2, MN-639.3, MN-639.5 through
14 MN-639.9, MN-640, MN-641, MN-642.1 through MN-642.7, MN-643.01
15 through MN-643.10, MN-644, MN-645.1, MN-645.2, MN-646 through
16 MN-652, MN-653.1, MN-653.2, MN-654.1, MN-654.2, MN-655.1,
17 MN-655.2, MN-656, MN-657, MN-658, MN-659.1, MN-659.2, MN-660.1,
18 MN-660.2, MN-661.1 through MN-661.3, MN-662.1 through MN-662.3,
19 MN-663.1, MN-663.2, MN-664, MN-666 through MN-672, MN-674,
20 MN-676.1, and MN-676.2 were received in evidence.)
21 BY MR. NOVAK:
22 Q. I'd ask you, Mr. Samit, to bring up MN -- to look at
23 MN-620.1, and could you tell the ladies and gentlemen what that
24 item is?
25 A. It's a declaration for a replacement passport.

977

1   Q. Now --
2   A. In French.
3   Q. Is that in French?
4   A. It is.
5   MR. NOVAK: Your Honor, with the agreement of counsel,
6   we have attached it at -- attached a translation from French into
7   English which we'd mark 620.1T, which we would offer as well
8   attendant to that exhibit.
9   THE COURT: All right. So 620.1T is also in evidence.
10 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-620.1T was received in
11 evidence.)
12 BY MR. NOVAK:
13 Q. Now, based upon a translation, could you tell the folks what
14 is that item and -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
15 A. Yes, sir. This document is a declaration of the loss of a
16 passport, French passport in the name of Zacarias Moussaoui, date
17 of birth, 5-30-1968.
18 Q. And what is the date that the declaration of loss was filed
19 on?
20 A. This was filed on March 18 of 1999.
21 Q. And does it -- does the -- that form by the French government
22 require the person making that request for a new identification
23 card to identify what happened to their old passport?
24 A. It does.
25 Q. And what does -- what is written in this section as for the

978

1   explanation?
2   A. Under circumstances, it says "information on the
3   disappearance of the documents." Under circumstances, it
4   says "paper damaged."
5   Q. Okay. On Exhibit 620.2, is that a similar French
6   declaration?
7   A. Yes, sir.
8   MR. NOVAK: Judge, and there's also a similar
9   translation, which we would offer, 620.2T, by an agreement of
10 counsel.
11 THE COURT: All right, that is also in evidence then.
12 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-620.2T was received in
13 evidence.)
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Sorry.
16 A. I'm caught up with you now. Yes, sir, it is another
17 declaration.
18 Q. And what is the date of that declaration?
19 A. This one is dated March 30 of 1999.
20 Q. So about two weeks after the other one you just looked at, is
21 that right?
22 A. Yes, sir.
23 Q. And is this also completed by Mr. Moussaoui?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. And what is he asking to replace this time instead of the

979

1   passport? Is there something else?
2   A. He is asking for a replacement of his national ID card.
3   Q. And is there a statement by him as to what the reason for the
4   loss of his old national identification card was?
5   A. Under "information on the disappearance of the documents," it
6   says "circumstances unknown."
7   Q. Okay. Could you move to MN-621 and 622 and tell us what
8   those two items are?
9   A. 621 is a, is a French national identity card.
10 Q. In whose name?
11 A. Zacarias Moussaoui.
12 Q. And does it have his date of birth on there?
13 A. It does.
14 Q. What's his date of birth?
15 A. 30th of May, 1968.
16 Q. So how old would he have been then when he had contact with
17 you on August 16 then?
18 A. 33.
19 Q. All right. And 622 is what? MN-622, do you have that as
20 well?
21 A. It is -- I do. It is a French national identity card.
22 Q. It's another identity card; is that right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. All right. 624, please, MN-624. Could you tell us what that
25 is?

980

1   A. This is an international student identity card.
2   Q. And in whose name?
3   A. Moussaoui, Z.
4   Q. Does it have his picture on there as well?
5   A. It does, it does bear his photograph.
6   Q. Are you familiar with international student cards?
7   A. Passingly familiar.
8   Q. Okay. Do you know what they're for then? Can you tell us?
9   A. They're for students traveling abroad that identifies them as
10 a student in a variety of languages.
11 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Moussaoui ever tell you why at the age of 33
12 he's got a student identification card?
13 A. He did not.
14 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, that's not even in the
15 statement of facts. Now we're getting into questions he didn't
16 ask him about things he found later that aren't in the statement
17 of facts. It's just grossly irrelevant.
18 THE COURT: Well, is it relevant to the issues in the
19 case?
20 MR. NOVAK: Well, sure it's relevant, for all the use of
21 multiple identifications that this defendant has. It's consistent
22 with Agent Anticev's testimony.
23 MR. MAC MAHON: It's in his name.
24 THE COURT: Usually multiple identifications are
25 relevant in a criminal case if they have distortions of name or

981

1   birth date or have other false information that could be
2   misleading or trying to cover up their identity. Does this have
3   that sort of information?
4   MR. NOVAK: No, but what it does, it consists of
5   parallel conduct, is if we put forward evidence that the other
6   hijackers on September 19 (sic) did exactly the same thing, and
7   Mr. Raskin put that in, and this is parallel conduct, that he
8   acted the same as the other hijackers.
9   THE COURT: All right. Then I'll overrule the
10 objection.
11 MR. NOVAK: Thank you, Judge.
12 Q. So the answer was did he ever tell you why at the age of 33,
13 he had the international student identity card?
14 A. No, sir.
15 Q. 630.1, .2, and .3, and .4.
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Do you want to tell the folks what those items are?
18 A. These are small wallet size or passport size photographs of
19 Mr. Moussaoui.
20 Q. And how many of those exist there?
21 A. Six.
22 Q. Six photos? And they're all of Mr. Moussaoui?
23 A. They are.
24 Q. Okay. You can put those aside.
25 Bring up MN-640.

982

1   And, Judge, I think we have MN-640 as a photo, which I'd
2   also introduce MN-640P then. If we can bring it up on the screen.
3   THE COURT: All right, 640P is also in.
4   (Government's Exhibit No. MN-640P was received in
5   evidence.)
6   BY MR. NOVAK:
7   Q. Do you want to find 640 there while we have this on the
8   screen?
9   A. I have it.
10 Q. Okay. Could you tell us what MN-640 is?
11 A. This is a receipt -- customer receipt of a Western Union
12 money transfer.
13 Q. And what is the date of that wire transfer?
14 A. The date is August 4 of 2001.
15 Q. And who is the receiver of the money that's identified on
16 that wire transfer?
17 A. Zacarias Moussaoui.
18 Q. And who is the sender as reported on that receipt?
19 A. Ahad Sabet.
20 Q. And can you tell us what are the amounts of money, the total
21 amount of money that was wire-transferred to Mr. Moussaoui from
22 Ahad Sabet on August 4?
23 A. $4,063.25.
24 Q. All right. And does it indicate where it is that
25 Mr. Moussaoui collected the receipt -- I'm sorry, let me step back

983

1   and ask this question in English: Does that document indicate
2   where the receipt is from, where Mr. Moussaoui was able to collect
3   that money?
4   A. It does. Pratt Foods No. 7, 1205 East Lindsey, P.O. Box 308,
5   Shawnee, Oklahoma.
6   Q. Thank you. You can put that aside.
7   Take a look at MN-644.
8   I think we have a picture of that, Judge. I ask that
9   that be marked as MN-644P, and I'd offer that.
10 THE COURT: All right, that's also in.
11 (Government's Exhibit No. MN-644P was received in
12 evidence.)
13 THE WITNESS: I have it, sir.
14 BY MR. NOVAK:
15 Q. Can you tell the folks what that item is?
16 A. This is the, this is the applicant's copy of a medical
17 certificate for a student pilot.
18 Q. Okay. Can we scroll down a little bit further to the middle
19 section here?
20 And when you testified about back when you received your
21 PPL, you had to get a medical certificate; is that right?
22 A. That's correct, sir.
23 Q. And is this similar to the type of certificate that you
24 received?
25 A. It is.

984

1   Q. And now on that -- and who is this medical certificate for
2   from the FAA?
3   A. Zacarias Moussaoui.
4   Q. And is there a date on that medical certificate?
5   A. There is down at the bottom. It looks like March 1 of 2001,
6   bottom right.
7   Q. Okay. I'm sorry, did you say you could read that?
8   A. I can. It says 03/01/2000, March 1.
9   Q. Okay. Now, I'm going to ask you to look at section M, when
10 it says yes or no. What does it ask for whether there's any type
11 of symptom of?
12 A. Frequent or severe headaches.
13 Q. No, M, M as in Mary?
14 A. I'm sorry, M. Mental disorders of any sort, depression,
15 anxiety, etc.
16 Q. And was there any indication of a mental disorder on that
17 certificate?
18 A. No, sir.
19 Q. Thank you, you can put that aside. Moving on to 655.2,
20 please.
21 I'll tell you what, I'm going to withdraw that request.
22 It will make it easier on Mr. Wood, who I think I'm torturing over
23 there. Could we show the witness MN-663.1 and .2?
24 A. 663.1 and .2?
25 Q. Yes.

985

1   THE COURT: MR. NOVAK, I mean, the level of detail, I
2   think, is becoming unnecessary. These items speak for themselves.
3   The jury will figure out what that is.
4   MR. NOVAK: Judge, there's a couple of items of physical
5   evidence here -- these are hand-held exercises. We think these
6   are important --
7   THE COURT: But they don't need to have any discussion.
8   They're already in evidence, and you can argue from them down the
9   road. Let's just start moving this along.
10 MR. NOVAK: May I just have a moment to look at my notes
11 for a second? Let me see if there's anything else.
12 Just a couple things.
13 Q. MN-674. This will actually be the last thing, Judge, I'll
14 ask about.
15 THE COURT: All right.
16 MR. NOVAK: It's a notebook. It's in the box, I'm told.
17 THE COURT: Is there something in this exhibit?
18 MR. NOVAK: Yes, there's a particular page that I want
19 to bring out, Judge.
20 THE COURT: That's fine.
21 MR. NOVAK: Again, this will be the last item that I'll
22 talk about.
23 THE COURT: It's a subject notebook, like a student's
24 notebook, Mr. Wood.
25 MR. NOVAK: Similar to the one that's in Mr. Wood's hand

986

1   right now, 674.
2   THE COURT SECURITY OFFICER: 72.
3   THE COURT: There are several of them there, Mr. Wood,
4   but he wants one particular one, 674. It should be blue.
5   THE COURT SECURITY OFFICER: It's not in this bunch.
6   MR. NOVAK: All right, Judge. That's fine. I'll just
7   move on. We'll save it for argument.
8   Q. Now, in addition, Agent Samit, in addition to the search
9   warrant that you procured of Mr. Moussaoui's personal items that
10 were held in the INS storage, did you also assist in other agents
11 in Oklahoma procuring a search warrant?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. And how does that work with the FBI in terms of other
14 locations within the country doing investigative work on your
15 behalf?
16 A. When they're doing it on our behalf, we will communicate the
17 specifics to them. In the case where we need a search warrant,
18 we'll provide them with similar facts to what we used in our
19 search warrant and transmit it to them so that they can go to
20 their judicial district, their district court and draw up a search
21 warrant that can be signed by a magistrate there.
22 Q. And for what location did you ask your fellow colleagues down
23 in Oklahoma to search?
24 A. The 209A Wadsack apartment.
25 Q. And was that done then?

987

1   A. It was, yes, sir.
2   Q. Now, on September 14 of 2001, was Mr. Moussaoui transported
3   to another location outside of Minnesota?
4   A. He was.
5   Q. And where was he transported to?
6   A. To the Southern District of New York.
7   Q. And before he was transported, did you-all take a picture of
8   him?
9   A. We did.
10 Q. And is that GX-3, we'd ask be shown.
11 I'd just offer GX-3. It's a photograph. We don't have
12 to bring it up on the screen?
13 THE COURT: All right, it's in evidence.
14 (Government's Exhibit No. GX-3 was received in
15 evidence?)
16 MR. NOVAK: Is there any objection from Mr. MacMahon?
17 MR. MAC MAHON: No objection, Your Honor.
18 MR. NOVAK: Judge, with that, I have no further
19 questions of Agent Samit.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 MR. MAC MAHON: Your Honor, if we could have the jury
22 out of the room for a second? We have a brief motion that
23 Mr. Zerkin and I would like to make.
24 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what: It's 5:10. It's
25 been a long day and, I think, a long week, and I expect this cross

988

1   examination will go more than 20 minutes.
2   MR. MAC MAHON: It will, Your Honor.
3   THE COURT: All right. I think this is a logical time
4   then to end for today, and, ladies and gentlemen, as you know, you
5   have tomorrow off.
6   Now, you can go back to work and resume your normal
7   lives. Just be sensitive to the fact that if people ask you about
8   what you've been doing, you are clearly under an order from this
9   Court that you cannot in any respect discuss this case or your
10 service as a juror, and you'll have to be careful over the long
11 weekend to avoid any media coverage about the case.
12 I am not able to get any kind of HOV passes for you-all.
13 We did check with the marshals. That's just not something that's
14 very easily done. You'd have to be driving a police car to get
15 one, and none of you is doing that.
16 Again, I suggest if some of you can carpool, that might
17 alleviate some of that problem, but we do appreciate the fact that
18 many of you are driving long distances and that you have been here
19 on time. It's an excellent group of people. So we thank you for
20 that, and we'll see you back here Monday morning at 9:30.
21 We will stay in session to address this issue.
22 (Jury out.)
23 MR. MAC MAHON: He can be excused, Your Honor.
24 THE COURT: Yes. Agent, thank you. We'll need you back
25 here, obviously, Monday at 9:30, and clearly, do not discuss your

989

1   testimony with anyone.
2   THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor.
3   (Witness stood down.)