LOG OF SEARCH OF McVEIGH'S VEHICLE (4-21-1995)
SEARCH WARRANT (5-5-1995) AND LIST OF ITEMS FOUND IN CAR
TESTIMONY OF TROOPER CHARLES HANGER CONCERNING McVEIGH'S ARREST
PHOTO OF T-SHIRT WORN BY McVEIGH AT THE TIME OF HIS ARREST
|
April 19, 1995 |
McVeigh awakes near Ponca City and about 7 A. M. begins driving toward Oklahoma City. About 8:50 A. M., McVeigh enters Oklahoma City. As he drives the Ryder truck up NW 5th Street shortly before 9:00, he lights two bomb fuses. He parks the truck at a drop-off point in front of the Murrah Federal Building, locks the truck, and walks quickly toward a nearby YMCA building. At 9:02 A. M., the truck explodes, taking with it much of the Murrah Building and seriously damaging many nearby buildings. Eventually, it will be determined that 167 people died, and over 500 were injured, in the explosion. McVeigh hops into his Mercury and heads north out of the city. At 10:20 A. M., while driving north on I-35 about 35 miles from the Kansas border, McVeigh is stopped by trooper Charles Hanger for having no license plates on his vehicle. He is arrested for having no vehicle registration, no license plates, and carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. He is booked and lodged in the county jail in Perry, Oklahoma. |
TESTIMONY OF OKLAHOMA STATE TROOPER CHARLES J. HANGER CONCERNING HIS ARREST OF TIMOTHY McVEIGH ON APRIL 19, 1995
(Nichols Trial--Nov. 5, 1997)
THE COURT: So we are ready for the next witness?
MR. MACKEY:Your Honor, the United States will call Trooper Charlie Hanger.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. MACKEY: Mr. Goelman will present.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Raise your right hand, please. (Charles Hanger affirmed.)
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Have a seat, please. Would you state your full name for the record and spell your last name.
THE WITNESS: Charles J. Hanger, H-A-N-G-E-R.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: Thank you.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Good morning.
A. Good morning.
Q. I think they can all probably guess by your uniform, but can you tell the jury and the Court what you do for a living.
A. I'm a state trooper for the Oklahoma Highway Patrol.
Q. How long have you been a state trooper in Oklahoma?
A. Since September of 1976.
Q. Are you married?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any children?
A. Yes.
Q. What are their names and ages?
A. I have -- oldest, 25 years of age, is Jennifer. Lisa is an 18-year-old, and Mindy is 16 years old.
Q. Officer Hanger, how much longer do you have until retirement?
A. I plan on retiring in seven more years.
Q. Could you retire now?
A. Yes.
Q. And why don't you?
A. I want to try to get my kids out of college first.
Q. I want to talk about what your job responsibilities were in April 1995. Where did you patrol at that time?
A. At that time I was assigned to a dual detachment area. Part of it was the interstate system near the -- which began on the south end of my detachment at the 165-and-a-half mile marker on Interstate 35 and continued north to near the 208-mile marker. I also had responsibilities for all the two-lane roads in Noble County. The interstate detachment covered two counties which was Payne and Noble County.
Q. And where in Oklahoma were you patrolling at that time?
A. That's the northern part of the state. I'm within 35 miles of the Kansas border and just about 60 to 65 miles north of Oklahoma City.
Q. What were your duties?
A. Primarily traffic, sworn to uphold all the traffic and criminal laws in the state, investigate accidents, enforce traffic laws, assist the motoring public in any way.
Q. Officer Hanger, in April, 1995, was it legal to drive in Oklahoma without a license plate?
A. No, it was not.
Q. And in April, 1995, was it legal to transport a loaded firearm?
A. No, it was not.
Q. Do you recall when you first heard about the bombing in Oklahoma City?
A. Yes. It was shortly after 9:00 a.m. on that morning of April the 19th. I was at the turnpike headquarters of the Cimarron Turnpike in eastern Noble County.
Q. What did you do when you heard about the bombing?
A. We turned on the television there at headquarters and began watching the coverage on the TV.
Q. Did you receive any orders related to the bombing, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what were they?
A. Pawnee headquarters gave me a radio call to report to the Oklahoma City area, to the command post there and assist as needed.
Q. Did your orders say anything about radio traffic?
A. They had told me that the radio net was what we would call as 1063. That's restricting the radio net to a specific area, and this instance it was restricted to units working the Oklahoma City area. Unless you had an emergency, then anyone could use it.
Q. And what did you do after you got your orders to go to Oklahoma City?
A. I got in my unit and proceeded west on the Cimarron Turnpike west to the first exit, which is the U.S. 64 exit. I got off there and went west on U.S. 64 through the city of Perry, Oklahoma; and then on the west edge of Perry, I got on Interstate 35 and began traveling south.
Q. And how fast were you going during this trip?
A. Speeds upward of a hundred mile per hour.
Q. Were your sirens on?
A. Yes.
Q. Were your emergency lights flashing?
A. Yes.
Q. How far is the headquarters where you were when you heard about the bombing from Oklahoma City?
A. That's approximately 80 to 85 miles.
Q. Did you get to Oklahoma City that day, Officer Hanger?
A. No, I did not.
Q. Why not?
A. As I had just gotten on the interstate there on the west edge of Perry and began traveling south, I received a radio call from my headquarters advising me to disregard that assignment and to remain in my area.
Q. Officer Hanger, are you familiar with the roads in northern Oklahoma from your service on the highway patrol?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you please take a look inside that folder there and see if you can find Government Exhibit 410.
A. I have it.
Q. Do you recognize that?
A. Yes. That's a map of part of the northern part of Oklahoma from Oklahoma City north.
Q. Is that a fair and accurate map of northern Oklahoma?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 410, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 410 received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Using that map and the light pen that should be there at your side, Officer Hanger, could you indicate for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury where you were when you first heard about the bombing.
A. I was in this area right here on the Cimarron Turnpike.
Q. And can you circle Oklahoma City on that map. Okay. Now, would you trace the path where you went when you got your orders to report to Oklahoma City, Officer Hanger.
A. Yes. I was on the turnpike. I went west to this exit right here, which is U.S. 64, continued west through the city of Perry. Upon reaching Interstate 35, then I started south on Interstate 35.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, is there any way we can get a different color than white for Officer Hanger's -- wrong person to ask.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, could you experiment a little bit and draw a line on that map. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. And indicate on the map where you were when you got your orders not to proceed to Oklahoma City.
A. I was between these two exits right here.
Q. Okay. And what did you do when you got those orders?
A. I turned around and began traveling north on Interstate 35.
Q. Is that from Oklahoma City or away from Oklahoma City?
A. That'd be going away from Oklahoma City.
Q. And towards Kansas or from Kansas?
A. Towards Kansas.
Q. Where in particular were you headed?
A. Prior to receiving the call, the initial call to go to Oklahoma City, I had received a call of a motorist broken down north of Perry, so I was going to continue up to that location to see if that motorist was still there.
Q. And did you reach that motorist?
A. Before reaching that call, I drove up on another vehicle that was broken down just north of the north Perry exit. And I stopped and assisted that motorist.
Q. How long were you at that stop?
A. Oh, 5 or 10 minutes.
Q. And what did you do after that?
A. Then I continued north on Interstate 35.
Q. As you are traveling north on Interstate 35, Officer Hanger, was your attention drawn to a particular car?
A. Yes.
Q. And tell us about that, please.
A. I was northbound on the interstate in the left-hand lane when I came upon a vehicle which was a yellow 1977 Mercury Marquis, four-door. It had a primer spot on the left rear quarter panel. And I started around that vehicle in the left lane, it was in the right lane traveling north, I observed that it was not displaying a tag on the rear bumper.
Q. What did you do after you noticed that the Mercury wasn't displaying a tag?
A. I slowed down, fell in behind the vehicle, got in the same lane it was in. Initiated my emergency lights and signaled for it to pull over.
Q. What did the Mercury do when you turned your lights on?
A. It began slowing down and pulling over to the east side of the roadway, the shoulder.
Q. Where did you pull the Mercury over on April 19?
A. It was between Mile Marker 202 and 203, about a mile south of the Billings exit.
Q. How long did the Mercury take to pull over?
A. Oh, less than a quarter of a mile.
Q. Is that a normal distance for pulling cars over?
A. It is for the highway speeds on interstate.
Q. Did you find it necessary to turn on your sirens or anything?
A. No.
Q. And in the course of this traffic stop, Officer Hanger, did you get a good chance to examine the car? Did you get a good look at it?
A. Yes.
Q. I want you to turn to Government Exhibit 414 in your folder.
A. I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. That is the car that I stopped that morning.
Q. And is that what it looked like when you pulled it over on April 19, 1995?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, move to admit Government Exhibit 414.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 414 is received; may be shown.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, can you click your pen to -- thank you. Now, could you please indicate where the primer spot is that you were talking about. What happened after you pulled that car over, Officer Hanger?
A. As I was pulling behind it and approaching the car, I was observing the inside of the car to see how many people were in it, and I could only see one, which was the driver. I pulled up within about 20 feet of the car and stopped. I was offset to the car a little bit, as you can see in the photograph, which is partially in the grass and partially on the shoulder. I was entirely on the shoulder and 3 to 4-foot to left of the left-hand side of the car.
Q. What did you do after you came to a stop?
A. I took my seat belt off and opened my car door, and as I was getting out of the car, I observed that the door of the Mercury was already open. Just shortly thereafter, the driver's feet came out, placed down on the asphalt. There was a short hesitation, and then the driver stood up and got out of the car.
Q. What did you do when the driver got out of the Mercury?
A. I looked at him. I could see both of his hands. He began walking toward me, so I stepped out from behind my car door and began walking toward him.
Q. What happened next?
A. We met behind his car. About 3 or 4 feet south of the left rear corner of his car and off to the west 3 or 4 feet. And I told him why I'd stopped him.
Q. Can you describe the driver of the Mercury?
A. Yes. He was a young man, in his mid 20's, about 6' 2", 175 pounds, thin-faced. He had light blond, brownish hair, and a thin face.
Q. Can you look inside your folder and see if you can find Government Exhibit 318.
A. Yes, I have it.
Q. Do you recognize that, Officer Hanger?
A. That's the gentleman that I stopped that morning.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 318.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 318 is received; may be displayed.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Since you first saw this man depicted in Government Exhibit 318 on April 19, have you come to know his identity, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Who is that?
A. That's Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And what happened when you and Mr. McVeigh met in between your two cars?
A. Like I'd said, I informed him why I had stopped him. I told him, "The reason I stopped you is because you're not displaying a tag on the back of your car."
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's response?
A. He turned and looked toward the bumper area of his car.
Q. Did he say something then?
A. He said, "I haven't had the car very long and I don't have a tag yet."
Q. And what did you say?
A. I said, "Could you provide me a bill of sale."
Q. Did he do that?
A. He said that "The man that I bought the car from is still filling out the bill of sale."
Q. And what was your response?
A. I said, "How long does it take to fill out a bill of sale?"
Q. Did he give you an answer to that?
A. He said, "I don't have one with me."
Q. What did you do at that point, Officer Hanger?
A. Then I asked him for his driver's license.
Q. And at that point was there any cause for special concern on your part?
A. No.
Q. What had Mr. McVeigh's demeanor been up to that point?
A. Very calm, polite.
Q. Had he been unhelpful or disrespectful in any way?
A. No.
Q. What happened after you asked Mr. McVeigh for his driver's license?
A. He took his right hand and went back to his right rear pocket, produced a camouflage billfold and removed his driver's license from that billfold and handed it to me.
Q. What happened after that?
A. As he was going to his right rear pocket to retrieve his billfold, he had on a blue windbreaker-type jacket that was just slightly zipped, and when he went to his pocket, it tightened this jacket up somewhat; and I could see a bulge under his left arm, and I thought that that was a weapon under his arm.
Q. What did you do at that point?
A. I looked at the driver's license and looked at him. Then I instructed him to take both hands, unzip his jacket, and to very slowly move his jacket back.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's response when you told him to do that?
A. He took both hands, he unzipped his jacket, and started slowly pulling it back; and just as he started doing that, he said, "I have a gun."
Q. When Mr. McVeigh told you that he had a gun, what did you do?
A. I grabbed for the bulge, and I said, "Put your hands up and turn around."
Q. Did he comply with your instructions?
A. He did.
Q. What happened then?
A. I removed my pistol from my holster and stuck it to the back of his head.
Q. What did you do after that?
A. I instructed him to walk to the trunk of his automobile.
Q. Where was your gun at that point?
A. It was stuck at the back of his head.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything to you as he walked to the back of the automobile?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "My weapon is loaded."
Q. What was your response?
A. I said, "So is mine."
Q. What did you do when you got Mr. McVeigh to the back of his car?
A. I instructed him to put his hands on the trunk and to spread his feet.
Q. Did he comply?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I then pulled back the jacket, removed the pistol from the holster it was in, and threw it on the shoulder of the roadway.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say something to you at this point?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What?
A. He informed me that he also had another clip and a pouch on his belt.
Q. What is a clip, Officer Hanger?
A. That is a magazine that holds ammunition that fits in the bottom of a automatic weapon which feeds ammunition to the chamber.
Q. And did you find this clip that Mr. McVeigh told you about?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I removed it from the pouch and threw it on the shoulder of the road near the weapon.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything further to you at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. He told me that he also had a knife on his belt.
Q. And did you relieve Mr. McVeigh of his knife as well?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What did you do with that?
A. I also threw it on the shoulder near the other items I had thrown down there.
Q. What did you do next, Officer Hanger?
A. I then patted him down and handcuffed him.
Q. Did you find any other weapons?
A. No.
Q. At that point in the encounter, did you ask Mr. McVeigh anything?
A. I asked him why he would be carrying a weapon on his person.
Q. What was his response?
A. He said he felt like he had the right to do that for his own protection.
Q. Did you have any reaction to that?
A. I told him that a wrong move on his part could have gotten him shot.
Q. And what did Mr. McVeigh say to that?
A. Possible.
Q. After you disarmed Mr. McVeigh and handcuffed him, what did you do?
A. I took him to the right front passenger seat of my unit, placed him in there and seat-belted him in.
Q. What did you do with the weapons that you had dropped at the side of the road?
A. I went back and retrieved those and took them to the trunk of my unit.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I placed them in the trunk of my unit. Also checked the weapon to see if it was loaded. Removed the clip from the bottom of the weapon, then I checked the chamber of the weapon and removed a round from that chamber.
Q. Okay. What is a chamber of a gun?
A. That's where the bullet goes while it's in the firing position. That's the bullet that's ready to fire.
Q. That's the bullet that would come out if the gun were fired?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you notice anything about this bullet when you removed it from the chamber?
A. Yes. It was a Black Talon round, .45 caliber round.
Q. What's a Black Talon round?
A. My understanding, a Black Talon round is designed, when it impacts something or a human being, it mushrooms, it produces tentacles as it goes into the body, it does a much greater damage to the human body because of these tentacles.
Q. What about the other bullets that Mr. McVeigh had on him?
A. They were what I considered just regular round ball ammunition. They were just smooth, rounded, pointed ammunition.
Q. They were not Black Talons?
A. No.
Q. What did you do with the gun?
A. After unloading it, I took it to my unit, to the driver's side.
Q. And did you get in your unit at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. I made a call to my dispatcher on the cell phone, since I couldn't use the radio, and informed my dispatcher where I was at and that I had a individual in custody that had been armed, and I asked the dispatcher to run some checks on this individual.
Q. Mr. Hanger, why couldn't you use your radio?
A. The radio was restricted due to the ongoing tragedy in Oklahoma City.
Q. What kind of checks did you ask your dispatcher to run?
A. I asked her to run a check for wanted on this individual, to see if he was wanted and to also see if he had a prior criminal history.
Q. Did you get a response from your dispatcher?
A. Yes.
Q. What was that response?
A. The dispatcher advised that the individual was not entered as being wanted, and he had no prior criminal history.
Q. What did you do with the gun at that point?
A. I was -- I told her -- when I was talking to her on the phone, I wanted to run a check on the gun to see if it was stolen. I was turning it around looking for the serial number and told her, it would be just a minute, I'd have to get the serial number. While I was doing that, Mr. McVeigh spoke up.
Q. What did he say to you?
A. He said, "The serial number is VM769."
Q. What was your response to that information?
A. At about that same time, I had located it, and I said "Well, you're close, it's VW769."
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "Well, I knew it was an M or a W."
Q. Did you have any further conversation with Mr. McVeigh about his gun?
A. I said, "Well, most people wouldn't know the serial number of their weapon."
Q. What did he say?
A. He said, "Well, I do."
Q. When you got the serial number of the weapon, what did you do?
A. I gave the information to the dispatcher, and she ran a check to see if it was stolen.
Q. Was it stolen?
A. It was not.
Q. What did you do after determining that the gun wasn't stolen and Mr. McVeigh wasn't wanted?
A. I took the gun and put it back in the trunk where the other evidence was at, the trunk of my unit.
Q. And did you decide to speak to Mr. McVeigh at the point?
A. Yes, I shut the trunk and went up and got in my car. And I attempted to initiate my video camera which would have an audio recording capabilities. However, I hit the wrong two buttons, and I only got video; I didn't get the audio.
Q. How did you begin to speak to Mr. McVeigh?
A. I read him his Miranda warning.
Q. What are they?
A. That is a card that informs the individual of his right to remain silent or to have counsel present before speaking to me.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh agree to speak to you?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Did you go ahead and ask him some questions at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say?
A. I again asked him why he didn't have a tag. And he said he hadn't had the car very long and he hadn't got one. I then asked him where he purchased the car. And he told me he had purchased it in Junction City, Kansas, from a Firestone dealer and the name of the salesman that he purchased it from was Tom.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh volunteer any other information about the purchase of this car?
A. He told me that he gave around $250 for it and had traded in another car that had broken down on him.
Q. Officer Hanger, do you know how to get to Junction City, Kansas, from where you pulled Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you?
A. You go north on Interstate 35 into Kansas, get off on Highway 77 and go north.
Q. Do you know whether or not that route would take you through Herington, Kansas, before you get to Junction City?
A. Yes, it would.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything else about the purchase of the car, or why he was driving without a license plate?
A. He had told me that he hadn't had time to get a tag. That he had a tag that was on his car that had broken down, but he felt like it was better to drive without a tag than to put the wrong tag on it.
Q. Did he tell you anything about the tag that he had on the car that had broken down?
A. He told me it was an Arizona tag and he quoted the number.
Q. Do you remember what that number was?
A. No, I do not.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh tell you where that license plate was at that point?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Mr. McVeigh for his permission to do anything else, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I asked him if I could search his car.
Q. And what was his response?
A. Yes.
Q. He agreed?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you do then?
A. Then I got out of my unit and went up to the car, but before I began searching it, I went to the left front area of windshield, the front windshield, and I recorded the vehicle identification number from that plate that is located there.
Q. What is the vehicle identification number, Officer Hanger?
A. That's a number that's assigned to each and every vehicle, no two vehicles have the same number, and it will specifically identify that particular vehicle.
Q. And why did you take that number from the front part of the Mercury?
A. I wanted to run a check for stolen on that number since it didn't have a tag to check, and I also wanted to attempt to locate a registered owner from the vehicle by using that number.
Q. After copying down the VIN number, what did you do?
A. I then entered the front seat area of car, the door was still open. I got in the front seat, looked around in the front seat, under the front seat, in the glove box, and I looked into the back seat.
Q. What did you see in the front seat?
A. There was a blue ball cap laying on the front seat; a piece of white, lined writing paper with some writing on it; and an envelope, legal-sized envelope, white, sealed, and about a quarter to half inch thick.
Q. Can you take a look at Government Exhibit 468, please.
A. I have it.
Q. And to the best of your recollection, is that the way the content of the front seat of the Mercury looked on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 468, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 468 received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Describe what we're seeing in that picture, Officer Hanger.
A. Looking into the front seat area of the Mercury from the opened right-hand passenger door.
Q. Okay. And what items are we looking at in this photograph?
A. You can see the ball cap, the lined writing paper, and just a corner of the envelope.
Q. Did you see whether the lined writing paper had anything written on it?
A. I can't --
Q. Not in that picture. At the time that you were in the car?
A. Yes, at the time that I was in the car, I recognized it had some writing on it.
Q. Do you remember what that writing was?
A. No, I do not.
Q. I want to show you another picture now; it's Government Exhibit 466. Just a different angle. Did you find 466?
A. Do you want one in here, also?
Q. Yeah.
A. I have it.
Q. And is that a -- also a depiction of the contents of the front seat from the other side?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the way it looked when you first saw the interior of the car on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government 466, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 466 received and may be shown.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. And do you see the envelope that you saw in the front seat of the Mercury in this picture?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Would you please circle it. You said the envelope was sealed. Was there any writing at all on the outside of the envelope?
A. No.
Q. What did you do after you searched the interior of Mr. McVeigh's car?
A. I went back to my unit.
Q. What did you do there?
A. I again called the dispatcher and asked her to run a check on the vehicle identification number that I had obtained and to check for stolen and also to check the state of Kansas and Oklahoma for a registration check.
Q. Was that vehicle stolen?
A. No.
Q. And did she find a registration in Kansas or Oklahoma?
A. No, she did not.
Q. Why did you pick those two states, Kansas and Oklahoma, to run your check?
A. Well, we were in Oklahoma, so I always check Oklahoma. And he had -- Mr. McVeigh had informed me that he had bought it in Kansas.
Q. What did you do when the dispatcher couldn't find the registration in either of those two states?
A. Well, I asked her -- there was a safety sticker on the front windshield; I thought it was the state of Missouri, and I asked her to check with the state of Missouri also.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh say anything to you also?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. What?
A. He spoke up and said, "That's an Arkansas safety sticker."
Q. What did you do with that information?
A. I told the dispatcher to run it through the state of Arkansas.
Q. While you wait for a reply from the registration check, did you have any further conversation with Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes. I asked Mr. McVeigh where he was coming from.
Q. And what did he say?
A. He said that he'd recently moved to Arkansas and had taken a load of his belongings down there and was on his way back to get more of his belongings.
Q. Did he say where he was on his way back to?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. Was it clear to you from the previous conversation and from the direction that Mr. McVeigh was headed when you pulled him over where he was going back to?
A. It was my opinion he was going back to Junction City, Kansas.
Q. And why was that your opinion?
A. That's where he had bought the car and that's where he had traded in the car that had broken down.
Q. Did you ask Mr. McVeigh anything else at that point?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What's that?
A. I had also asked him how to get into his car, into the trunk.
Q. Did you ask him whether or not he wanted you to leave his car there?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And why did you ask him that?
A. I asked him if he wanted me to tow the car or leave it at the roadside. And I explained to him the difference, that if I impound the car, I'll make a inventory of it and list his property for his protection, and if he leaves it at the roadside, it will be left at his own risk.
Q. What did Mr. McVeigh want you to do?
A. He said, "Just leave it."
Q. Did you ask him anything further then?
A. I asked him if he wanted anything out of it.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said no.
Q. Did you ask him if he wanted anything in particular out of the car?
A. Yes. I said, "What about the sealed envelope that's on the seat?"
Q. And what was his response?
A. He said, "No, leave it there."
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh seem to know what envelope you were talking about?
A. Yes.
Q. He didn't ask what are you talking or what envelope or anything?
A. No. He just replied to the question.
Q. And you mentioned that you asked Mr. McVeigh something about his trunk also during that period of time?
A. Yes. When I'd searched it earlier, I didn't see a trunk key on the keys that were in the ignition, so I asked him how to get into his trunk.
Q. And did he tell you how to get into his trunk?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He told me that I'd have to push a release button that was in the glove box.
Q. Did you do that?
A. Yes, I went to the right-hand side of the car to do that and the door was locked and so I went back around to the driver's side and got in and hit the button and opened the trunk.
Q. What was in Mr. McVeigh's trunk?
A. Not much of anything. There was a little toolbox in there with some hand tools, some rags, some of them were soiled, some leaves and twigs, that's it.
Q. What did you do after conducting the search of Mr. McVeigh's trunk, Officer Hanger?
A. I shut the trunk and I locked the automobile. And came back to my unit.
Q. And what did you do then?
A. I backed my unit up. We waited for traffic to clear, I crossed the center median and we went south on Interstate 35 en route to the Noble County Jail.
Q. Where is the Noble County Jail?
A. That's in Perry, Oklahoma, located in the courthouse.
Q. How long did the ride to the jail take from where you pulled over and ultimately arrested Mr. McVeigh?
A. No more than 20 minutes.
Q. What was the ride like in terms of atmosphere or conversation that you and Mr. McVeigh had?
A. There wasn't much conversation. He was concerned about how he could get his weapon back.
Q. What did you tell him?
A. I told him that he'd have to contact the court or have an attorney to contact the court and see how that could be done.
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh show any signs of being upset?
A. No.
Q. Did he display any signs of panic?
A. No.
Q. Did he show any signs of being the least bit excited?
A. No.
Q. Or scared?
A. No.
Q. Officer Hanger, where was Tim McVeigh during the ride to the Noble County Jail on April 19?
A. He's still sitting in the same seat that I'd put him in initially in the right front passenger seat.
Q. And did you later find something on the floor of your patrol car behind where Mr. McVeigh had been sitting?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Can you describe that for the jury, please.
A. On the morning of the 22d, which would be the next shift that I worked after completing my shift on the 19th, I'd went to work that day, and I made a search of the, visual search of the area of my car. I always look at the floorboards and the seats to see if anything that might have been left in there that could be used as a weapon. And while I was doing that, I looked in the right rear floorboard and there was a crumpled-up white business card laying in the floorboard.
Q. Had you ever seen that business card before, Officer Hanger?
A. No.
Q. Who was the last prisoner you had transported before finding that business card?
A. Mr. McVeigh.
Q. Would you please take a look at Government Exhibit 418 which should also be in your folder.
A. Is this 418A?
Q. Yeah, there should be 418, the original as well, 418A. But keep 418A out. You're going to be looking at that in a second.
A. I have both of them.
Q. Okay. And is Government Exhibit 418 that business card that you found on the floor of your patrol car?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, we move to admit Government Exhibit 418.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 418 received.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Would you take a look at Government Exhibit 418A, please.
A. Yes.
Q. And is that nothing more than a clearer copy of Government Exhibit 418?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 418A, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: It's received, also.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you read the big writing on the front of that business card, please.
A. It says, "Paulsen's Military Supply."
Q. Okay. I want to show you the back of the card and have you read that as well.
A. In big capital letters it says, "Dave," and then in parentheses, it says "(TNT @ $5 a stick. Need more.)" Below that is a telephone number that says, "708-288-0128." Below that in printing it says, "Call after 1 May see if I can get some more."
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, at this time I would ask the Court to read a stipulation reached by the parties to Mr. McVeigh's handwriting.
MR. WOODS: We do stipulate to that handwriting, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. You want the whole thing?
MR. GOELMAN: It's page 4 of the table of contents of the McVeigh handwriting stipulation. Nothing more than the writing on the back of the card.
THE COURT: 418. All right. Well, let me again remind you, members of the jury: A stipulation means an agreement with respect to certain facts; and of course when facts are agreed upon, we accept them as true without the necessity of proof by other evidence, and in this matter it has been agreed by both sides that the document, 418, which you've just seen -- 418A, a copy of it, was written by Timothy James McVeigh.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. What did you do when you got to the Noble County Jail, Officer?
THE COURT: I should make it clear, the handwriting on it is written by Timothy McVeigh, rather than the printing.
MR. WOODS: Thank you, your Honor.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you, your Honor.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, what did you do when you got to the Noble County Jail in Perry, Oklahoma?
A. Upon arriving at the jail, I took Mr. McVeigh out of the unit and we went back to the trunk of my area -- my unit, the trunk area, and I removed the evidence that I had placed in there earlier.
Q. Where did you take Mr. McVeigh then?
A. Then I took him into the courthouse and up to the fourth floor which is the jail area.
Q. Did you take him to a particular area in the jail?
A. Yes, to the booking room.
Q. What's the booking room?
A. That's where all prisoners are processed, their personal information is recorded, their personal property is taken from them and recorded, they're photographed, fingerprinted, before they're placed in a cell.
Q. What is in the booking room?
A. In the booking room there's a large counter which is the booking counter, covers about three-quarters of the width of the room. Also a computer, desk that it sits on, and another desk that has a TV on it.
Q. Do you remember if the television was on when you brought Mr. McVeigh in on April 19?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Do you remember what it was showing?
A. They were showing coverage of the bombing in Oklahoma City.
Q. What was the nature of that television coverage?
A. They were showing pictures of the building that had been bombed and also pictures of the parking lot and destroyed cars in the area of the building.
Q. Was there anyone else in the booking room at that time besides you and Mr. McVeigh?
A. The jailer was there, Mrs. Marsha Moritz.
Q. And did you and Mrs. Moritz discuss the bombing in any way?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the nature of your conversation?
A. We were talking about how tragic it was and how no doubt that many people had been killed and many injured.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh doing during this time when you and Mrs. Moritz were discussing the bombing?
A. At times he was looking at the TV and at times he was just looking away.
Q. Did he join in your discussion of the bombing?
A. No.
Q. Did he make any comments whatsoever?
A. No.
Q. What was his reaction to the devastation being shown on the television screen?
A. There was no reaction.
Q. What did you do after bringing Mr. McVeigh to the booking room?
A. I then went to the desk behind, to the north of the booking area, where the computer's located and began working on a probable cause affidavit.
Q. And how far is the desk that you were working at from the booking area?
A. 5 or 6 feet.
Q. Do you remember what charges you filed against Mr. McVeigh?
A. Yes.
Q. What were they?
A. Transporting a loaded firearm in a motor vehicle, unlawfully carrying a weapon, failure to display a current number plate, which is a tag, on a motor vehicle and failure to maintain proof of security, which is liability insurance.
Q. Officer Hanger, earlier you described how you got Mr. McVeigh's driver license from him. Did you ever give that back to Mr. McVeigh during the traffic stop?
A. No.
Q. What did you do with it?
A. I stuck it in my left rear pocket, pant pocket.
Q. And what did you do with it when you brought Mr. McVeigh to the Noble County Jail in the booking area?
A. I gave it to the jailer.
Q. Why did you give it to the jailer?
A. They use that as a -- recording information off that to put on the booking card.
Q. And what is a booking card?
A. A booking card has the name of the prisoner that you're booking in with some other information, their occupation, date of birth, Social Security number. I think they list tattoos, scars, or marks.
Q. Does the jail fill one of those out for every prisoner that it takes in?
A. Yes.
Q. And does the booking card also include place for listing someone as the prisoner's next of kin?
A. Yes.
Q. When Mr. McVeigh was being booked in and you were on the computer, were you listening to any conversation between him and Mrs. Moritz?
A. Yes.
Q. Why were you doing that?
A. I pay attention to what's going on. I don't listen in on every word, but I try to listen to the demeanor of the prisoner, make sure that the jailer's not having any problems.
Q. What was Mr. McVeigh's demeanor when he started talking to Mrs. Moritz?
A. He was very calm and cooperative.
Q. Did you hear anything unusual while you were at the computer?
A. Yes.
Q. Tell us about that.
A. I had heard Mrs. Moritz ask him who he wanted to list as next of kin. And he didn't say anything. And I heard her ask that same question again. He still didn't say anything. So I --
Q. Mr. McVeigh just didn't have any response to those questions?
A. No, he didn't respond at all.
Q. What did you do at that time?
A. So I got up from the chair that I was sitting in at the computer and walked up to the booking counter.
Q. Why did you do that?
A. I didn't know whether she was going to have problems or what. He had been cooperative up to that point, and I just wanted to be there in case there was a problem.
Q. Okay. What happened when you got to the booking counter?
A. I asked him, I said, "Well, what about this address listed on the driver's license?" She was trying to explain to him that the only reason that she wanted that information was in case he would get sick or something, they weren't going to call and tell his next of kin that he was in jail, but they wanted someone to contact in case of an emergency. And I said, "Well, what about the address listed on the license?" I said, "Who lives there?"
Q. When Mrs. Moritz was explaining to Mr. McVeigh that the only reason she wanted name of next of kin was in case he got sick or something, did he give her a name at that point?
A. Not initially, no.
Q. Okay. Did Mr. McVeigh eventually provide a name?
A. Yes.
Q. And when was this?
A. That was after I'd asked him who lived at that address.
Q. What did he say?
A. He said that was a place that he had stayed; it was a -- belonged to a brother of a friend that he was in the military with.
Q. And did Mrs. Moritz say anything at that point?
A. She said, "Well, do you want to use that?" And he said yes.
Q. What name did Mr. McVeigh give for next of kin?
A. The last name was Nichols. At that particular time I couldn't remember what the first name was.
Q. Could you take a look again inside your folder and find Government Exhibit 427.
A. This isn't clearly marked. I'm not sure if that's it or not.
Q. Officer, Exhibit 427 is -- it looks a lot like a driver's license.
A. I see the license, but I don't see a number.
Q. Okay. Can you look on your screen and see if anything's depicted there.
A. Yes.
Q. What is that?
A. That's the driver's license that Mr. McVeigh handed to me that morning.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, Government moves to admit Exhibit 427.
MR. WOODS: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: 427 received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Is that the driver's license that you got from Mr. McVeigh April 19, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please read the street address listed on that license into the record.
A. That is 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan. ZIP 48426.
Q. Thank you. And now could you look -- I hope these are labeled a little bit better -- inside the folder for Government's Exhibits 420, 422, and 423.
A. I have 420 and 422, and this other one doesn't have a number on it.
Q. Officer Hanger, is there a number on the back of that exhibit, maybe?
A. Yes, 423.
Q. So you've found all of them?
A. Yes.
Q. And are they all records that are made for prisoners when they check into the Noble County Jail?
A. Two of them are. One of them is a document that I fill out.
Q. What is the document that you fill out?
A. It's a confiscated property report.
Q. And are all three documents related to Mr. McVeigh's arrest?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit 420, 422, 423, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: They are received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish 420?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, do you see the exhibit that is displayed on the screen below you?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Can you read the name listed there?
A. At the top.
Q. Yeah.
A. It's Timothy James McVeigh.
Q. And what's the address?
A. 3616 North Van Dyke Road in Decker, Michigan.
Q. Where does Mrs. Moritz get the addresses that she puts on booking cards?
A. Normally from the driver's license.
Q. Okay. And can you go down to where it says next of kin?
A. Yes.
Q. What does it say there?
A. James Nichols.
Q. Does it give a phone number?
A. Yes.
Q. What's that number?
A. I can't make out the second letter. It's either 507 or 517. And then it says 882-4018.
Q. Okay. Are you sure the second number of the number itself is a 8 and not a 7?
A. Looking at the actual exhibit, not on the screen, it's clearer it shows 512. 872-4018.
Q. 512?
A. Yes.
Q. Where does Mrs. Moritz --
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, we'll stipulate it's 517. 512 is Austin, Texas, ZIP code.
MR. GOELMAN: Thank you. Your Honor, we'll accept that stipulation.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Did Mr. McVeigh explain to you why he had been so hesitant to give you the name Nichols?
A. No.
Q. Did he explain why he hadn't answered the question about the next of kin the first three times it was asked?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn to another part of the booking process, Officer Hanger. Are prisoners that are booked into the Noble County Jail photographed?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Does that happen to all prisoners as part of intake?
A. Yes.
Q. How is this done?
A. Prior to his photographing, we ask him to remove his jacket that he'd had on. It was taken off, and also the holster that he had on. Then he is asked to go to a corner -- the southwest corner of the jail where there is a height chart. He's asked to stand in front of that height chart. He's holding a sign that has his booking number, the date, and it says "Noble County Jail" on the sign.
Q. Do you remember asking Mr. McVeigh to take his jacket off that morning?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he comply?
A. Yes, sir, he did.
Q. What did you see when he took his jacket off?
A. He had on a light-colored T-shirt and on the front of it was a picture of Abe Lincoln and some writing below that.
Q. Did you see what that writing said?
A. I saw the writing was there, but I didn't read it.
Q. Did you see Mr. McVeigh's photograph taken?
A. Yes.
Q. Who took it?
A. The jailer, Marsha Moritz.
Q. And where were you at the time?
A. I was standing there in the area watching her photograph it.
Q. After Mr. McVeigh was photographed, what happened?
A. Then he is asked to change his clothes, and the jailer handed him a paper sack and some jail clothes and asked if I would go with him to observe him changing his clothes.
Q. And why did you have to go with him to observe him changing into jail clothes?
A. The people that are changed out are always supervised, but since we had a male prisoner and a female jailer, it wouldn't have been appropriate for her to go, so I went.
Q. Where did Mr. McVeigh change into jail clothes?
A. It's a little room across the hallway to the south of the booking room.
Q. During that process, did you get a chance to see the back of the T-shirt that he was wearing?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you describe that, please.
A. It had a large tree on it with some writing.
Q. Do you remember what the writing was?
A. No.
Q. Did you see what Mr. McVeigh did with the T-shirt after he took off his civilian clothes?
A. He put it in the paper sack that had been provided to him.
Q. Do you know whether Mrs. Moritz also noticed the T-shirt that Mr. McVeigh was wearing on that day?
A. Yes.
Q. How do you know that?
A. After Mr. McVeigh had been placed in a cell, she had made the comment to me, "Wasn't that a strange T-shirt that he had on?" I said, "What do you mean?" She said, "Well, it had a strange saying on it." And I said, "Well, I didn't read it." And she didn't recall exactly what it said, but she thought it was odd.
Q. Can you take a look and see if you can find Government Exhibit 421.
A. I have it.
Q. What is that?
A. That is a booking photo of Mr. McVeigh the day he was booked into the county jail.
Q. Is that what he looked like when he was booked into the Noble County Jail on April 19?
A. Yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Move to admit Government Exhibit 421, your Honor.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: Received, 421.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Can you see any of the part of the T-shirt that you saw on that day, Officer Hanger?
A. Yes, I can see the front of it. The sign is partially covering up Abraham Lincoln's face, but you can see from about his forehead up.
Q. Okay. Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, may I approach?
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Do you have Government Exhibit 429 up there?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And without showing it to the jury because it's not in evidence yet, Officer Hanger, could you see if you recognize this exhibit?
A. May I take it out?
Q. Sure.
A. Yes, that's the same T-shirt that Mr. McVeigh had on that morning.
Q. How do you know that that's the same T-shirt?
A. It has the same picture of Abe Lincoln with some writing below it and the picture of the tree on the back with writing on it.
Q. Had you ever seen a shirt like that before April 19?
A. No.
MR. GOELMAN: Your Honor, I move to admit Government Exhibit 429.
MR. WOODS: No objection.
THE COURT: 429 is received.
MR. GOELMAN: May I publish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Could you please read what the back of the shirt says.
A. It says: "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." And below that it says, "T. Jefferson."
Q. And is there a picture on the back of the shirt?
A. Yes. It's a large tree, and it has red blood droplets.
Q. Can you please hold that up and show the back of the shirt to the jury.
THE COURT: You may do that.
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Thank you, Officer Hanger. After you booked Timothy McVeigh into the Noble County Jail that day, Officer Hanger, did you have any more contact with him?
A. No.
Q. So all your contact with Mr. McVeigh was on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. How long did you spend with him that morning?
A. About a hour and a half.
Q. And how would you describe his demeanor during that hour and a half you spent together?
A. For the most part, except during the time he didn't answer the question on next of kin, it was very calm and polite, cooperative.
Q. And except for the questions about next of kin, did his demeanor change at all throughout the course of the time that you spent together?
A. No.
Q. Was there anything about the way that Timothy McVeigh looked, acted, or spoke on the morning of April 19, 1995, that led you to suspect that he had just detonated the bomb that destroyed the Murrah Building?
A. No.
Q. Let's turn to April 21, 1995, Officer Hanger. Two days after the bombing, did you learn that federal investigators suspected the man who you had arrested as being involved in the bombing?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you accompany agents on that day back up to where you had left Mr. McVeigh's car on the highway?
A. Yes, I met them at the location of where the car had been left.
Q. You met them there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you find there?
A. The car that Mr. McVeigh was driving at the time that I arrested him was still sitting where it had been left.
Q. And did it look like anything had changed with that car?
A. No.
Q. Did you look inside the car?
A. Yes. I looked through the windows, into the car, and everything looked the same as I had left it.
Q. Had you locked the car before you left on April 19?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know whether it was still locked on April 21 when you met federal agents up there?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. One final area of questioning, Officer Hanger. When you arrested Tim McVeigh and searched his car, did you see if he had a suitcase or duffel bag or any kind of bag of clothing in there?
A. He didn't have.
Q. Did you see if he had a change of clothes?
A. There was none.
Q. I want you to look again at Government Exhibit 410 which you previously identified, and has been introduced into evidence.
A. I have it.
Q. And again, using the light pen, point out where Mr. McVeigh was when you first pulled him over.
A. Right there in that area.
Q. About how far is that from the Kansas border?
A. About 35 miles.
Q. And can you point out Oklahoma City on this map, please. Officer Hanger, if you were in Oklahoma City and you wanted to get to Arkansas, how would you get there?
A. I would go east on Interstate 40.
Q. Officer Hanger, do you know where Kingman, Arizona, is?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you were in Oklahoma City and you wanted to get to Kingman, Arizona, how would you get there?
A. I would go west on Interstate 40.
Q. Is there any reason if you were in Oklahoma City and you wanted to get to one of those two places, to travel 80 miles north on Interstate 35?
A. I don't see any reason.
Q. Officer Hanger, were you asked by the FBI to drive from where the Murrah Building stood before the bombing to the point where you pulled Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Q. What route did you take to do that?
A. Took city streets over the Interstate 235, up to Interstate 44, and then Interstate 35 north.
Q. And how far is it from the site of the Murrah Building to where you first noticed Mr. McVeigh on the morning of April 19?
A. It was 77.9/10 miles.
Q. What speeds were you traveling at when you took that route?
A. At the posted speeds that were posted on April the 19th, 1995.
Q. And how long did it take you?
A. 75 minutes and 15 seconds.
Q. How much longer would it have taken you to reach the Kansas border if you continued at that speed on I-35?
A. Oh, around 30 minutes.
Q. And driving at the speed that was posted in April, 1995, what time would you have arrived at that mile marker where you arrested Tim McVeigh if you left at 9:02 in the morning?
A. Shortly after 10:17 a.m.
Q. About what time did you pull Mr. McVeigh over, Officer Hanger?
A. A little before 10:20 a.m.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
THE COURT: Mr. Woods.
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor, thank you.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Good morning, Trooper Hanger.
A. Good morning.
Q. My name is Ron Woods. I'm one of lawyers that's appointed to help Terry Nichols. You and I have never had a chance to talk about this case, have we?
A. No, sir.
Q. Okay. That morning when you turned around and you got a dispatch to not go to Oklahoma City but to turn and just patrol your area; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How fast were you going when you passed the car that Mr. McVeigh was in?
A. I was running 90 to a hundred miles an hour.
Q. What was the reason you were going so fast?
A. On Sunday, Sunday just prior to the 19th, it would have been Easter Sunday, I had investigated an accident east of the community of Billings, Oklahoma, on State Highway 15, which is just west of Interstate 35. And I wanted to go up there and view that area to see if there was any physical evidence that I had missed because the accident had occurred during hours of darkness, and I was afraid I was going to be sent back to Oklahoma City, and I wanted to get this complete before that might have happened, so I was rushing up there.
Q. And so you passed Mr. McVeigh how fast, approximately, would you estimate that he was going?
A. I couldn't even estimate it. I don't know.
Q. Did you have your lights and siren going as you were driving a hundred miles an hour?
A. No, I did not.
Q. And you just happened to look over and see the license plate was not there?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you see if there was any other car near Mr. McVeigh, either in front or the rear?
A. I didn't take any note of other traffic that was around him. The interstate is usually busy. There very well could have been, but I didn't take note of it.
Q. And when you stopped him, can you tell the jury about how long it was before you turned on your camera?
A. It was after I had had him arrested, placed the evidence in the trunk, ran the checks, went back, took the gun back to the trunk, and then came back that I turned on the camera, but I don't recall the exact time. A few minutes.
Q. Can you give us an approximation of how long it was before you turned that on?
A. From the time of the stop until that point, less than 10 minutes.
Q. Okay. Isn't it your practice usually to have the camera going as you get out of the car and go up to talk to the individual?
A. If it's something that you think that you're going to need to document. If you're stopping a vehicle that's driving erratically and you think you have a DUI, well, then, yes, you would turn it on and record that information because that would be pertinent to your case, but I didn't feel like it was necessary in this instance.
Q. Okay. So you felt that you should turn it on once you started talking to Mr. McVeigh in the car; is that correct?
A. Yes. I wanted to be able to document the conversation. I knew that I was going to read him his Miranda warning. I wanted that documented, and I wanted to document the entire conversation.
Q. Okay. And is that a practice that is taught there in Oklahoma; that when you're talking with a suspect, you normally try to record the conversation?
A. I wouldn't say that it's a practice that is taught. But a lot of times I do do that.
Q. Well, you've gone to all the police schools in Oklahoma, I take it, haven't you, to become a trooper and to maintain your certification?
A. I attended the training academy in Oklahoma City and then receive additional training each year.
Q. During that training, haven't they taught you to tape- record the interviews of suspects?
A. It's -- I've never had a school where they said that was a mandate. I know of no patrol policy that mandates that.
Q. How familiar are you with that camera? How long had it been in your car that you had been operating it?
A. I don't recall exactly how long I'd had that. It had been a few months. I hadn't had it a long time.
Q. Was this a new installation? You hadn't had a camera before?
A. This was the first camera I'd ever had.
Q. So you'd had it for how many months?
A. I'd just have to give you a wild guess; I really don't recall.
Q. Give us a wild guess.
A. Six months.
Q. Okay. And you told the jury that you punched the wrong button, and you only got video rather than audio?
A. Yes. That camera has the capabilities of recording the information inside the car as you're recording video outside the car, and I just pushed the wrong two buttons.
Q. Okay. Now, have you reviewed that video from start to finish -- do you recall -- Let's start with when did you turn it off.
A. I believe I turned it off just prior to getting off the interstate at the Perry exit while we were en route to the Noble County Jail.
Q. Okay. Have you reviewed that video from start to finish?
A. No.
Q. Did the FBI ever ask you to review it?
A. We looked at parts of it, but we didn't look at it from start to finish.
Q. When you looked at it, did you see a brown pickup that had stopped in front of McVeigh some distance up?
A. No.
Q. Do you recall the media reports at that time that your video camera showed a brown pickup that had stopped --
MR. GOELMAN: Objection.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. -- in front of McVeigh?
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Did you ever have any information that you were asked to look at concerning a brown pickup that was stopped in front of the Mercury Marquis some distance up?
MR. GOELMAN: Same objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: Could you repeat the question, please.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Yes. Did you ever have any information that there was a brown pickup that was stopped in front of McVeigh's vehicle some distance up the road at the time of your stop?
A. I had been asked if I had seen such a pickup.
Q. And did you look at your video in detail from start to finish to see if it was on there?
A. Not from start to finish.
Q. Did the FBI take it and look at it, to your knowledge?
A. They took the video. I don't know what they -- how extensive they looked at it.
Q. Did you ever get it back?
A. No.
Q. When did they take it?
A. I turned it over to them, I believe, on the 27th of April.
Q. Is that the first time they requested it?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they have a subpoena for it, or they just come get it, or what?
A. They asked for it, and I turned it over to an agent in Oklahoma City.
Q. Did you drive down there and give it to them?
A. I had to be down there for a court hearing that day, and I took it with me.
Q. Okay. Now, you told the jury that when you stopped Mr. McVeigh and he came back and you all met there behind the car that you told him that you were stopping him for no license plate; is that correct?
A. Yes, for not displaying a tag.
Q. And you said that he turned and looked at where the tag should be.
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Why did he do that?
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Do you know what reaction he gave when he turned and looked at the space?
A. I know what he said.
Q. What kind of reaction did you observe before he said anything?
A. I don't recall any reaction. His demeanor never changed. He looked at -- but he did turn and look at the bumper.
Q. Okay. And then he started telling you a reason why he didn't have the license plate; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. How much -- how many seconds passed there before he started telling you a version or a reason why he didn't have a plate?
A. Oh, just almost immediately.
Q. Now, do you have that driver's license in front of you, sir? And that's going to be Exhibit No. 427.
A. Yes.
Q. Does that driver's license reflect a date of issuance?
A. There's something that says "issued" up there, but I can't read it through this plastic.
Q. Do you need glasses for reading?
A. I'm just getting to that point in my life where I --
Q. I know that feeling.
THE COURT: Maybe it's on the display one. Is it?
MR. WOODS: Well, I'm sure the Government's got a computer hookup. Let me see if I can.
THE COURTROOM DEPUTY: There it is.
MR. WOODS: Here we go. Thank you, very much.
THE WITNESS: Much clearer there.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. This is a Michigan driver's license; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And on the top line, does it show a date of issue? It says "issued"?
A. It says "issue," but it really doesn't look like a date. It looks like it says D242294.
Q. It's hard to come up with a date in there.
A. I don't know what that is. I'm not familiar with the Michigan driver's license process.
Q. Okay. And then the next blank on the right, it expires on "Birthday '97"?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, thanks. Now, Trooper Hanger, you have never seen Terry Nichols; is that correct? You certainly didn't see him there that day.
A. I've never seen him in person, until today.
Q. You didn't see him that day for certain.
A. No.
Q. Do you know what the reason was why the lawyers in your department wouldn't let you talk to us?
A. You'd have to ask them.
MR. GOELMAN: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: He already answered, "You'd have to ask them."
MR. WOODS: Thank you, very much, Trooper. I appreciate this opportunity to talk to you finally.
THE COURT: Mr. Goelman, do you have any follow-up?
MR. GOELMAN: Just one question, your Honor.
THE COURT: Okay.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. GOELMAN:
Q. Officer Hanger, you told Mr. Woods that you weren't paying much attention to the other traffic when you initially pulled Mr. McVeigh over?
A. Yes.
Q. You also told him that you don't remember seeing any brown pickup truck.
A. Yes.
Q. If there had been a brown pickup truck stopped on the shoulder of I-35 ahead of Mr. McVeigh when you pulled him over, would you have noticed that?
A. Possibly. Possibly not. I wasn't focusing right down the road. If it would have been close, I would have noticed it.
Q. If it was within 20 feet, would you have noticed it?
A. Oh, yes.
MR. GOELMAN: Nothing further.
MR. WOODS: Your Honor, just a couple more questions.
THE COURT: All right.
RECROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. Trooper Hanger, do you recall testifying at the bond hearing for Mr. McVeigh?
A. Was that at the hearing in El Reno?
Q. Pardon me?
A. Was that at the hearing in El Reno?
Q. I believe it is, sir.
A. On the 27th of April? MR. TIGAR: Excuse me.
MR. WOODS: May I have one second, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MR. WOODS:
Q. No, sir, I'm sorry. This was at the initial hearing that Friday on April the 21st, there in Noble County, in front of -- you were being asked questions by Mark Gibson, the assistant district attorney. It was in front of Judge Danny Allen.
A. I didn't attend that hearing.
Q. Okay. You were not present when Mr. Gibbons was explaining to the Court about Mr. McVeigh?
A. Mr. who?
Q. About Mr. McVeigh?
A. I didn't understand -- you said Mr. someone, and I didn't understand who you said.
Q. Mr. Gibson, who is the assistant district attorney.
A. On the 21st of April, I was off that day. I didn't attend any hearing that day.
MR. WOODS: Okay. Thank you.
MR. GOELMAN: May be excused, your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that agreed?
MR. WOODS: Yes, your Honor. No further questions.
THE COURT: You may step down. You're excused.
LOG OF SEARCH OF McVEIGH'S VEHICLE (4-21-1995)
