DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
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MR. DARDEN: Mr. Rubin, who was your employer during 1990?
MR. RUBIN: Aris Isotoner.
MR. DARDEN: And what was your position at that time?
MR. RUBIN: I was vice president and general manager.
MR. DARDEN: When did you first begin with the company?
MR. RUBIN: I started with them in 1976.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And what were your duties in your capacity as vice president and general manager?
MR. RUBIN: I was responsible for the design, manufacturing, production, raw material, sales and marketing of all men's gloves.
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MR. DARDEN: Well, was there a model or style of glove that you shipped to Bloomingdales exclusively?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And was that model 70263?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: And we showed you some gloves here today; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, you did.
MR. DARDEN: And you--strike that. I take it that you've seen just about every model Aris ever produced, that is up until 1990?
MR. RUBIN: I've actually seen every model that Aris has produced. The company I believe is about 80 years old. I saw every model that was produced from the inception of the company up until 1990.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Let me show you the glove marked 164-A, the Rockingham glove. Is this the glove that we showed you during the afternoon break today?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, it is.
MR. DARDEN: Looking at that glove, can you tell us which style or model that glove is?
MR. RUBIN: This is the right hand of a style 70263.
MR. DARDEN: And how can you tell that?
MR. RUBIN: Well, first of all, the model was exclusive to Bloomingdales. It was only manufactured and distributed to them. No other retailer in the United States had this model. And because of this particular type of sewing, which was unique to this model as well as the weight of the cashmere lining, the weight of the leather utilized and the way the vent is put into the palm, this could really not be any other style except 70263.
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MR. DARDEN: Have you even seen it sold anywhere in the world other than in Bloomingdales?
MR. RUBIN: No, I have not.
MR. DARDEN: Let me show you what has been marked as People's 77, the Bundy glove. Is this the glove that I showed you earlier today?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, it is.
MR. DARDEN: And looking at this glove, can you tell us the style of this glove?
MR. RUBIN: This is the left hand of a style 70263.
MR. DARDEN: And is this an Aris Isotoner glove?
MR. RUBIN: It's actually an Aris leather glove. It's not an Isotoner glove.
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MR. DARDEN: Now, is there anything special about the weight of the leather of this glove?
MR. RUBIN: Yes. This leather is approximately 30 percent lighter than conventional men's weight leather and approximately 10 percent heavier than conventional lady's weight leather, thus making it what was called an Aris lights glove. It was a very light supple type product that was very well received by Bloomingdales' customers.
MR. DARDEN: And the lining, what is the lining comprised of?
MR. RUBIN: This lining is a--what is known as a 10-gauge knit lining. It's made with one strand of yarn, a cashmere yarn and it is a hundred percent cashmere.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Now, was that style or model discontinued at some point?
MR. RUBIN: It is my understanding that as they approached 1992, since this was a model that was extremely difficult to manufacture in any type of quantity, that gradually they did phase out of this type of sewing.
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN
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MR. COCHRAN: And you told us these were fairly popular--this type of glove was fairly popular; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: I did not say that.
MR. COCHRAN: Okay. You didn't say that?
MR. RUBIN: No.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. Were they? Maybe someone else said that. Were they fairly popular?
MR. RUBIN: The quantity that was manufactured in this glove was minuscule in the scheme of the amount of leather gloves that Aris produced.
MR. COCHRAN: Yes.
MR. RUBIN: This particular glove was a popular style within Bloomingdales only as an exclusive style.
MR. COCHRAN: All right.
MR. RUBIN: But in the scheme of things, it was very small.
MR. COCHRAN: Well, you're a big company. It was a big company at that time; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: It is a big company.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. I understand that. But we're talking now about this particular style, okay?
MR. RUBIN: Right.
MR. COCHRAN: Now, in that connection, how many of these types of gloves, the Aris light, did you order for the 1989, if you so ordered, for the Bloomingdale stores?
MR. RUBIN: I believe it was a thousand and eight dozen.
MR. COCHRAN: A thousand and eight dozen in 1989; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: In the fall of '89 for utilization in 1990.
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MR. COCHRAN: All right. And were all those gloves sold, a thousand and eight dozen, if you know?
MR. RUBIN: Definitely not.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. And the ones that weren't sold, what happened to them? Were they sent back to the factory? Did they come back the next year or what?
MR. RUBIN: Generally speaking, they're returned to the manufacturer, refurbished if necessary and held for shipment the following year.
MR. COCHRAN: In other words, you wouldn't throw them away at any rate, right?
MR. RUBIN: No.
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MR. COCHRAN: So that we're fixed--so that we're understanding each other, when you talk about the 10,000 pairs, you're talking about the Aris light, right?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: Okay. And so what you're telling us is that there was something like 10,000 pairs of these gloves on order for the 1990 season as it were; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: Of this particular style, right?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: Now, of that 10,000 pairs--and of course, you had left the company at that point, but if they didn't sell all the 10,000 pairs that year in 1990, they would then return some of those, recycle some of those back for 1991 depending upon the demand of the order; isn't that right?
MR. RUBIN: Correct.
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MR. COCHRAN: Okay. What was the first year of these Aris light gloves with the Brosser stitching were sold in the United States to Bloomingdales?
MR. RUBIN: I believe it was 1982 or -3.
MR. COCHRAN: And with this process we've been talking about, did it start back in '82?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. So then starting in 1982, '83, '84, '85 '86, '87, '88, '89 up to 1990, you had been making these gloves exclusively for Bloomingdales; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: And as I understand it, would I be correct in assuming that the number generally went up so that by 1989 or '90, you were in the range of 10,000 pairs of these gloves, the Aris light; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: Right.
MR. COCHRAN: And you think this continued on for '91 and '92 at least; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Well, actually what occurred was, there was a tremendous warming trend, and in 1990, the business went, you know, substantially backwards, and I think it has actually slowed up since then. The peak sale of this product was the winter of '89. But based upon that, that's how the 10,000 pair came up to be because after the success of '89, they bought more for 1990.
MR. COCHRAN: Sure. I understand that. So--but basically what we're talking about is the purchase of these gloves for up to 10,000 pairs of these Aris light gloves over a 10-year period basically, 1982 to 1992, right?
MR. RUBIN: Yes. The quantities were extremely small though during the early years.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. And when you say "Small," what did you start out with, an estimate of what you started out with in '82?
MR. RUBIN: A hundred dozen.
MR. COCHRAN: Hundred dozen?
MR. RUBIN: 1200 pairs.
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MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to Bloomingdales, can you tell us, in December of 1990 or thereabouts, how many Bloomingdale stores were there in the United States?
MR. RUBIN: 13.
MR. COCHRAN: And these gloves were exclusive to Bloomingdales; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And how many stores are there in New York in Manhattan?
MR. RUBIN: In Manhattan? One.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. And they come as far west as Chicago?
MR. RUBIN: Back in 1990, yes.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. So at that time, the time you left, you were furnishing 13 Bloomingdales stores of these Aris light gloves; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: That's right.
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MR. COCHRAN: With regard to the gloves that you were shown and that you saw, we all saw during the break, there is no style number on those gloves that's visible; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Not on the outside.
MR. COCHRAN: And if you looked at the label, you couldn't see a 70263, could you?
MR. RUBIN: No. There's no identification on the labels.
MR. COCHRAN: Okay. Is there--is there a number someplace else on the glove?
MR. RUBIN: During the manufacturing cycle, there are three sets of numbers behind the lining on the back of the gloves during the actual manufacturing process. I don't know if those numbers still exist today in these gloves because of the age of the gloves. But originally, there were three sets of numbers inside, one being a size, two being a 3-digit number which indicated the individual who actually cut the gloves, and then another 2-digit number indicating the sequence in which they were made from the leather that was given to the cutter at a given point in time. But I don't know if those numbers exist in there right now.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. You've never seen--you haven't seen those numbers with regards to the gloves before you, have you?
MR. RUBIN: No.
MR. COCHRAN: And at no place has there ever been a lot number or style number like 70263 therein; is that correct? That was not part of the procedure, was it?
MR. RUBIN: No. It was not part of the procedure.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. Now, as I understand it, there are Aris Isotoner gloves all over the United States; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And all over the world for that matter; isn't that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. Are the--Bloomingdales is a store exclusive to the United States or are there--
MR. RUBIN: I believe their retail operations are. They may have some mail order internationally. I'm not a hundred percent sure.
MR. COCHRAN: So back from the 10-year period, '82 to '92, would it have been possible through Bloomingdales mail order catalog to order these particular gloves during that time frame?
MR. RUBIN: At some points in time, this particular product was in various Bloomingdales catalogs.
MR. COCHRAN: So you could be in France and order those; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: If you were on the mailing list, it's a possibility.
MR. COCHRAN: Now, do you have any kind of a breakdown of the difference in colors? Let's assume that in 1990, you ordered 10,000 pairs of these Aris light gloves. Do you know how many different colors did you have at that time?
MR. RUBIN: At that time, I believe we had four colors; black, brown, gray and a medium brown.
MR. COCHRAN: And do you know the breakdown of the 10,000, how that was--how they were ordered?
MR. RUBIN: 60 percent plus would be black, approximately 30 percent or 28 percent would be brown and then the other colors would really be just 10 percent or so.
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MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to the gloves that you were shown by Mr. Darden a short time ago, in looking at those gloves, they appear similar to you; do they not?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, they do.
MR. COCHRAN: But you can't say they're the exact same gloves that were sold at the same time, can you?
MR. RUBIN: When I was looking at--when we looked at the gloves earlier--was the grain of the leather, the way these gloves were manufactured, just looking at them in this condition, they appear to be a pair that was cut out of approximately half of a skin, and that's what I was looking at. They appear to be a pair.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. But in looking at them, you can't tell us for sure they're from the same particular lot, can you? You can't say they're the same, can you?
MR. RUBIN: It's difficult.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. There's no individual characteristics that would allow you to make that particular, even though you can say they look similar; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: They do look similar. That's all I can say.
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MR. COCHRAN: All right. So in other words, what you can tell us is that that particular glove you believe is the style that was exclusive to Bloomingdales was or could have been purchased at any time between the time frame 1982 to 1992 when they changed the stitching, right?
MR. RUBIN: Correct.
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RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
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MR. DARDEN: Mr. Cochran asked you some questions about the percentage of gloves sold that would be black in color and those that would be brown in color as well as other colors. But in 1990, assuming you had 10,000 pairs of these gloves, what percentage of those gloves would be brown?
MR. RUBIN: 30 percent.
MR. DARDEN: And what percentage of the--of that 30 percent would be size extra large?
MR. RUBIN: Eight percent. No. I'm sorry. Eight percent of the total, not eight percent of the 30.
MR. DARDEN: Eight percent of the total number of gloves would be extra large?
MR. RUBIN: Right.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, what percentage of the total would be extra large in size and brown in color?
MR. RUBIN: I'm not sure if I understand the question.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Well, if you had 10,000 pairs of Aris Isotoner leather light gloves.
MR. RUBIN: On a 10,000-unit basis, there would be approximately 300 units in extra large, brown totally available.
MR. DARDEN: And of those 300 units, you would expect to receive back into your factory approximately 100 pair?
MR. RUBIN: It could be that high.
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MR. DARDEN: And so in your view then, Mr. Rubin, approximately 200 pairs of brown extra large Aris Isotoner leather lights would have been sold during 1990?
MR. COCHRAN: Assumes a fact not in evidence, "Could be."
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
MR. DARDEN: In your opinion, how many size extra large, brown in color, Aris Isotoner leather light gloves would have been sold by Bloomingdales during 1990?
MR. RUBIN: Between 200 and 240 pair.
MR. DARDEN: And did I hear you correctly? Did you testify that the lot sold to Bloomingdales during 1990 was the largest lot?
MR. RUBIN: Largest lot of this particular style?
MR. DARDEN: Yes. Yes.
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MR. DARDEN: What was the maximum number of brown, extra large--well, strike that. How many pairs of brown extra large Aris leather lights would have been sold in 1992?
MR. RUBIN: There may have been 50 pair in brown, extra large.
MR. DARDEN: How about '93?
MR. RUBIN: Twice as much.
MR. DARDEN: I'm sorry. 83. Twice as much?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: About a hundred?
MR. RUBIN: Yeah.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. How many size extra large, brown in color, Aris leather light gloves would you say were sold through Bloomingdales in 1982?
MR. RUBIN: In 1982?
MR. DARDEN: From 1982 through 1990.
MR. RUBIN: I really would be speculating at this point. I'd have to actually start to calculate what the progression was and then factor in the consumer demand shifting from 50 percent black and brown and then shifting more toward black. If I had to guess in total--
MR. COCHRAN: I think he's answered the question.
THE COURT: Ask another question.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. But as the years went on, the color brown in size extra large became more rare; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
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[SIMPSON TRIES ON THE GLOVES]
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Your Honor, at this time, the People would ask that Mr. Simpson step forward and try on the glove recovered at Bundy as well as the glove recovered at Rockingham.
THE COURT: All right. Do you want to do that?
MR. COCHRAN: No objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. He can do that seated there. All right. And I think so the jury can see, I'll ask Mr. Simpson to stand. All right. Mr. Darden, which glove do you have?
MR. DARDEN: This is the Bundy glove, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DARDEN: And after Mr. Simpson tries on the gloves, I would ask that he be required to step back over to the jury and again show him his bare hands.
THE COURT: Well, we'll get to that in a second. All right. The record should reflect that, as is our practice with these gloves, Mr. Simpson will have a pair of latex gloves on while doing this.
MR. DARDEN: I'm handing Mr. Simpson the left glove, Rockingham.
THE COURT: That's People's 77?
(The Defendant complies.)
MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, apparently Mr. Simpson seems to be having a problem putting the glove on his hand.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to counsel's statements.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. COCHRAN: Thank you. Move to strike.
MR. DARDEN: I'd also like to hand Mr. Simpson the other glove. What exhibit number?
THE COURT: This is People's 164-A? Is that the right-hand glove?
MR. DARDEN: Yes, your Honor.
(The Defendant complies.)
THE COURT: All right. Deputy Jex, would you just take a step back, please. Thank you. All right. The record should reflect that Mr. Simpson has both gloves--
MR. DARDEN: May he show his hands in front of the jury so that they can see--
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: Mr. Simpson is indicating that his fingers aren't all the way into the gloves, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you, counsel.
MR. DARDEN: Mr. Simpson told the jury that the gloves are too small.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, before Mr. Simpson goes back, can we ask him to replace the left glove onto his hand?
THE COURT: All right.
MR. DARDEN: Can we ask him to straighten his fingers and extend them into the glove as one normally might put a glove on?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, object to this statement by counsel.
(The Defendant complies.)
THE COURT: All right. He appears to have pulled the gloves on, counsel. All right. Would you show that to the jury, Mr. Simpson, in that manner?
(The Defendant complies.)
THE COURT: Thank you. Other hand, please.
(The Defendant complies.)
MR. DARDEN: Could we ask him to make a fist with his left hand with the gloves on, your Honor? Could we ask him to make a fist with his right hand while the gloves are on, your Honor?
(The Defendant complies.)
THE COURT: He is doing both.
MR. DARDEN: Could we ask him to grasp an object in his hand, a marker perhaps, your Honor?
THE COURT: All right. Mr. Simpson.
(The Defendant complies.)
MR. DARDEN: Would we ask him to grasp the marker in his hand like this, your Honor (indicating)?
MR. COCHRAN: Object to this, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes. I agree.
MR. COCHRAN: Object to counsel--
MR. DARDEN: Could we ask him to completely grasp the marker in his hand?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: Whether raised or not?
THE COURT: Yes.
(The Defendant complies.)
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MR. DARDEN: Your Honor, if it pleases the Court, could we have Mr. Rubin step down from the witness stand, walk through the well and have a look at Mr. Simpson's hands?
THE COURT: And this is for the purposes of the size, glove size?
MR. DARDEN: Yes.
THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Rubin, would you please do that.
MR. DARDEN: Will the Court ask Mr. Simpson to extend his hands?
THE COURT: Yes.
(The witness and Defendant comply.)
THE COURT: All right. The record should reflect that Mr. Rubin has examined both Mr. Simpson's left and right hands. Mr. Darden.
MR. DARDEN: Mr. Rubin, you sold thousands and thousands of leather gloves throughout the world, correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. DARDEN: What size glove would you say would fit Mr. Simpson's hand?
MR. COCHRAN: I object to that.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. COCHRAN: I object to the form of the question.
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.
MR. RUBIN: In some styles, size large, in most styles, extra large.
MR. DARDEN: Should the gloves shown to you here in court today have fit Mr. Simpson's hand in your opinion?
MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form. Calls for speculation without further foundation.
THE COURT: Overruled. You can answer the question.
MR. RUBIN: At one point in time, those gloves would be actually I think large on Mr. Simpson's hand.
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MR. DARDEN: Now, would you expect that the fact that he's wearing latex gloves here today inhibit--would that inhibit his ability to extend his hand through the glove?
MR. RUBIN: I personally have never put on latex gloves and tried on gloves. So I really couldn't say. But I would say that appears to be a factor because--
MR. COCHRAN: He's answered the question, your Honor.
MR. RUBIN: When he showed--
THE COURT: All right. That's fine.
MR. DARDEN: Can you give us--can you give the jury any explanation as to why Mr. Simpson couldn't fit his hand into the glove here today?
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object. Calls for speculation. Counsel--
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. DARDEN: Did you observe the manner in which Mr. Simpson put the gloves on today?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. DARDEN: And you've seen people put gloves on in the past?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
MR. DARDEN: Did he put the gloves on in a manner consistent with what you've seen other people--
MR. COCHRAN: I object to that. It's irrelevant and immaterial, your Honor. There's no foundation.
THE COURT: Sustained. The jury observed what happened.
MR. DARDEN: Anything unusual about the way Mr. Simpson put the gloves on based on your experience?
MR. COCHRAN: I object, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. DARDEN: Could you tell whether or not he was intentionally holding his thumb in a certain position so that he couldn't put the gloves on?
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, objection. Object to that. It's argumentative.
THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Counsel, the jury--
MR. DARDEN: I have nothing further. I apologize.
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RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN
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MR. COCHRAN: Now, with regard to the sizes of gloves, these gloves that were made back between the period '82 to '92 that we talked about, were they made so that each extra large was the same size as the next extra large or is there some variation in sizes?
MR. RUBIN: The intent was for them to be exactly the same. The patterns that were utilized were exactly the same size. But each few square feet of leather does have its own characteristics as far as stretch ability.
MR. COCHRAN: So that some--one extra large might actually be smaller than another extra large. Is that a fair statement?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And there is that variability in the lots as they turned out; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That is correct.
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RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
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MR. DARDEN: Mr. Rubin, yesterday you told us that you were involved for several years in the design and manufacture of leather gloves; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, it is.
MR. DARDEN: You consider yourself an expert in gloves?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. DARDEN: Now, yesterday after the demonstration you stated while on the witness stand that ordinarily the Defendant's hands--
MR. COCHRAN: Object to this as asked and answered.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. DARDEN: Should have fit into the gloves; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. DARDEN: What did you mean by that?
MR. RUBIN: The gloves in the original condition would easily go onto the hands.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I object to this. Speculation. I object.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. RUBIN: Would easily go onto the hands of someone of Mr. Simpson's size.
MR. DARDEN: The gloves you saw yesterday, did they appear to be in their original condition?
MR. RUBIN: No, they did not.
MR. DARDEN: And what was different about them?
MR. RUBIN: The primary difference was the fact that due to the tremendous amount of liquid that had been on the gloves for a certain period of time, the gloves appeared to be shrunken in size from their original condition.
MR. COCHRAN: I object to this response, your Honor. Could the Court allow us a brief time at side bar?
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. DARDEN: The liquid you are referring to, is that blood?
THE COURT: Excuse me, counsel.
MR. RUBIN: I'm not a technical--
THE COURT: Hold it. He is not qualified to answer that question.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. Thank you. Thank you, your Honor.
MR. DARDEN: So the gloves appeared to have shrank somewhat?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. How much?
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MR. RUBIN: It would appear, based upon my knowledge of what would occur when gloves are subjected to liquid such as water, that gloves could shrink approximately 15 percent from its original size.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And the gloves that you saw here in court yesterday, did they appear to have shrank approximately--
MR. COCHRAN: Leading and suggestive, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. Rephrase the question.
MR. DARDEN: What percentage of shrinkage, if any, did you notice?
MR. COCHRAN: Assumes a fact not in evidence, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. RUBIN: Since I didn't personally try the gloves on at any point in time, I would estimate the shrinkage of approximately 15 percent.
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MR. DARDEN: Now, you also told us yesterday that you felt that the Defendant's hand was what size? What size did you say?
MR. RUBIN: Between a large in some styles and an extra large in other styles.
MR. DARDEN: In your review of his hand size he is an extra extra large?
MR. RUBIN: No.
MR. DARDEN: Are you certain of that?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: And the gloves we had here in court yesterday, the Rockingham and the Bundy glove, were they designed to fit snugly?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, they were.
MR. DARDEN: Were they designed to stretch?
MR. RUBIN: All leather gloves have some stretch.
MR. DARDEN: What size would you say the gloves are now today, that is, in their present condition?
MR. COCHRAN: Calls for speculation, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained. He said he hasn't tried them on.
MR. DARDEN: Okay.
******
MR. DARDEN: Yesterday I asked you whether or not wearing latex gloves might impede someone's ability to place a pair of leather gloves on their hands. Do you recall that question?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you said you had never tried to place latex gloves on or didn't place gloves on top of the latex gloves?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. But you did that last night; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. DARDEN: And you tried on a pair of gloves?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: Yes?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I did.
MR. DARDEN: That was after you put the latex gloves on?
MR. RUBIN: Yes.
MR. DARDEN: And the pair of gloves that you tried on, were they your own gloves?
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, I'm going to object to this. I wasn't present. I would like to approach, if the Court please.
THE COURT: Overruled. Mr. Darden.
MR. DARDEN: Thank you.
MR. DARDEN: The gloves that you placed on on top of the latex gloves last night, were they your own gloves?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, they were.
MR. DARDEN: And what effect, if any, did the latex gloves on your hand have in terms of your ability to place your own gloves on?
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MR. RUBIN: I had more difficulty in getting the personal gloves onto my hand with the latex glove on my hand than I normally would.
MR. DARDEN: Now, leather gloves do have some degree of elasticity to them; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, it is.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And when we say elasticity in the context of leather gloves, what are we talking about?
MR. RUBIN: In the process of producing leather for the glove industry, a fat liquor type material is put into the leather which creates elasticity. Over time, when people move their hands back and forth or when the gloves get wet, that fat liquor really creates elasticity and it is part of the tannage process to make gloves fit better.
MR. DARDEN: So when gloves get wet what effect or impact does that have on the elasticity?
MR. COCHRAN: Object to the form of the question, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. RUBIN: What happens when gloves get wet, the water or whatever it is that actually wets the glove absorbs small amounts of the fat liquor which creates shrinkage. Over time, as the gloves try naturally, the gloves actually can come back very close to its original shape, but they will never come back to the original size, because once a certain percentage of the fat liquor disappears, the glove loses a little of it's elasticity.
MR. DARDEN: So then, Mr. Rubin, is there a way to manipulate the gloves we have here in evidence, the Rockingham and the Bundy glove, so that they can return to their original size and shape?
MR. RUBIN: These gloves will never return to the original size and shape in the condition they are in currently.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. How close can we get them to their original size and shape.
MR. COCHRAN: I object. That calls for speculation, your Honor. I don't mean to make a speaking objection, but it is speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
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MR. DARDEN: In any event, Mr. Rubin, I ask that you take a look at the gloves recovered at Bundy and Rockingham and place them on your hand and give us an indication as to what size you believe the gloves now are?
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MR. DARDEN: Let me hand you item 9, the Rockingham glove. And this is People's 164-A, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. That is the right hand glove. Mr. Darden.
MR. DARDEN: What size would you say that glove is now?
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MR. RUBIN: As is, in this condition right now, this is a little bit above a large, but well below an extra large at this point in time.
THE COURT: Miss Clark, do you want to assist Mr. Darden?
MR. DARDEN: Let me show you People's 77, LAPD item 37, the Bundy glove. Is there any point to having Mr. Rubin change latex gloves at this point?
THE COURT: I think at this point, no.
MR. RUBIN: Okay. For starters, the lining in this particular glove has been dislodged. I can't get my hand in it at all.
MR. DARDEN: Okay.
MR. RUBIN: I would have to get a pen or something. One of the fingers, where the lining is actually tacked to the end of the finger, is broken away.
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, is there a question?
THE COURT: No.
MR. DARDEN: Last question, your Honor.
MR. DARDEN: That is, Mr. Rubin with regard to the golfing gloves that you looked at here this morning, are the size of those gloves consistent with the size of the Defendant's hand, in your opinion?
MR. RUBIN: These particular gloves?
MR. DARDEN: Yes.
MR. RUBIN: Yes, they should fit him.
MR. DARDEN: Thank you. Thank you.
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MR. DARDEN: Mr. Rubin, just before the break, you testified that you could not extend your hand through the glove marked exhibit 77; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
THE COURT: And, ladies and gentlemen, I should tell you, Mr. Rubin did testify that he could not get his hand into the left-hand glove. Over the evening hours out of your presence, the glove was examined by a number of people with the Court's permission, and the glove was turned inside out and was examined. So that explains how the lining is dislodged from the fingers. All right. Mr. Darden.
MR. DARDEN: And have you attempted as best you could to replace the lining in its proper position?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I have.
MR. DARDEN: And you can extend your hand into the glove now?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I can.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And you have the glove on?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, I do.
MR. DARDEN: And what size is the glove now today?
MR. COCHRAN: Your Honor, my continuing objection to this speculation.
THE COURT: Noted. Overruled. You can answer the question.
MR. RUBIN: It's closer to a size large than an extra large.
MR. DARDEN: But when manufactured and purchased, it was an extra large?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, it was.
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RE-CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COCHRAN
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MR. COCHRAN: All right. And those gloves, when they were made between the period we talked about, 1982 to 1992, were they in some way shrink-proof?
MR. RUBIN: No.
MR. COCHRAN: Did they have some kind of treatment to keep them from shrinking?
MR. RUBIN: No.
MR. COCHRAN: The manufacturer? Not at all?
MR. RUBIN: Not at all.
MR. COCHRAN: And so the--if a person then bought gloves presumably to wear in the winter in the eastern part of the United States, it would be anticipated those gloves would get wet; isn't that correct?
MR. RUBIN: It would happen on occasion.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. On occasion, they would become wet; is that right? And with regard to that leather, is that one reason why the fat liquor is--became a part of the process in preparing these gloves?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And the reason why the fat liquor was used was to diminish the amount of shrinkage; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: It was more so to have the leather retain its memory and create an elastic capability versus the shrinkage.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. So elastic capability, which means that it can stretch; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. So that if gloves, sir--and these gloves cost a lot of money, didn't they? They were--they were beyond the $20 average you told us about, leather gloves; is that right?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: So if you bought a pair of gloves in the winter of '90 and they got wet and you put them away, you'd expect to be able to use those gloves again in the winter of '91; isn't that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And your product--you don't make a product that just because they get wet or have some precipitation, that you throw them away at the end of each use. They're not usable gloves. They're not one time usable gloves, are they?
MR. RUBIN: They are not disposable.
MR. COCHRAN: All right. These gloves are to last a long time. That's one of the things you pride yourself on; isn't that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: And they're made in such a fashion so they are supposed to be elastic and they come back for use; isn't that correct, sir?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. COCHRAN: Now, are you--as an expert, do you know--assume hypothetically these gloves were purchased in 1989 or in 1990, and let's assume they were worn during the winter, during that time, rain and snow. You can't tell this jury how much those gloves shrunk during that period of time, can you?
MR. RUBIN: I cannot.
MR. COCHRAN: You have no way of knowing that, do you?
MR. RUBIN: I have no way of knowing how much liquid or rain or snow or whatever, you know, elements went onto the product and actually how they were dried.
MR. COCHRAN: So you have no way of knowing that?
MR. RUBIN: I do not.
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MR. COCHRAN: Mr. Rubin, just a few more questions. Do you--are you aware of how much 3 cc's of liquid amounts to?
MR. RUBIN: No, I'm not. Excuse me. 3 cc's?
MR. COCHRAN: Yes.
MR. RUBIN: Yes. I'm very familiar with 3 cc's.
MR. COCHRAN: And do you think that--I want you to assume arguendo that 3 cc's of liquid is almost two gloves. Do you think that amount of liquid would result in your gloves, your very expensive Aris gloves, shrinking 10 to 15 percent?
MR. DARDEN: Objection, your Honor. Improper hypothetical.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. RUBIN: 3 cc's of liquid would have no effect whatsoever on those gloves.
MR. COCHRAN: So if there's testimony that's there only 3 cc's of liquid on those gloves, should have no effect at all? They should be exactly the same size; is that correct?
MR. DARDEN: Objection. Misstates the testimony.
MR. COCHRAN: I'm asking.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. COCHRAN: Is that right?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
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RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DARDEN
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MR. DARDEN: You also said that the crime scene gloves from Rockingham and Bundy both have some degree of elasticity; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: That's correct.
MR. DARDEN: But they've lost some of that elasticity; is that right?
MR. COCHRAN: Objection. Leading and suggestive.
THE COURT: Rephrase the question.
MR. DARDEN: Have they lost any of the elasticity?
MR. RUBIN: Yes, they have.
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION (FURTHER) BY MR. DARDEN
MR. DARDEN: The crime scene gloves from Rockingham and Bundy, are they designed to be worn tightly just like golf gloves?
MR. COCHRAN: I object to the from of--well--
THE COURT: You can answer the question.
MR. RUBIN: The fact that they are lined, they are designed to be snug, provide warmth, but not worn exactly like golf gloves, no.
MR. DARDEN: And you testified a moment ago that it takes a lot of effort to take off a tight pair of gloves; is that correct?
MR. RUBIN: It would take some effort.
MR. DARDEN: Okay. And--
THE COURT: That's two.
MR. DARDEN: An effort consistent with a life and death struggle for one's life I take it?
MR. COCHRAN: Objection, your Honor. Speculation.
THE COURT: Sustained.
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