Trial Testimony of Amanda Knox (June 12-13, 2009)
(Credit: Transcription and translation from PerugiaMurderfile.org)
Friday, June 12 2009
GCM Giancarlo Massei, Judge Presidente
AK Amanda Knox
GM Giuliano Mignini, Prosecutor
MC Manuela Comodi, Prosecutor
CP Carlo Pacelli, Lumumba civil lawyer
FM Francesco Maresca, Kercher family lawyer
GB Giulia Bongiorno, Sollecito defense lawyer
LG Luciano Ghirga, Knox defense lawyer
CDV Carlo Dalla Vedova, Knox defense lawyer
INT Interpretor
GCM:
Avvocato, please begin.
CP:
Good morning, Miss Amanda, I am Carlo Pacelli, I am the defense lawyer for Patrick Diya Lumumba. A little remark: I will try to keep my questions in simpler Italian. May I start?
AK:
Thank you, yes.
CP:
You know Rudy Hermann Guede?
AK:
Not much.
CP:
In what circumstances did you meet him?
AK:
I was in the center, near the church. It was during an evening when I met the guys that lived underneath in the apartment underneath us, and while I was mingling with them, they introduced me to Rudy.
CP:
So it was on the occasion of a party at the house of the neighbors downstairs?
AK:
Yes. What we did is, they introduced me to him downtown just to say "This is Rudy, this is Amanda", and then I spent most of my time with Meredith, but we all went back to the house together.
CP:
Did you also know him, or at least see him, in the pub "Le Chic", Rudy?
AK:
I think I saw him there once.
CP:
Listen, this party at the neighbors, it took place in the second half of October? What period, end of October? 2007?
AK:
I think it was more in the middle of October.
[An interlude in which the judge Massei asks the interpreter to not do a simultaneous translation in which her voice is heard at the same time as Amanda's, but to translate short phrases consecutively. Because everyone wants to hear the answer in English, and it is being recorded. He advises Amanda to speak in very short phrases.]
CP:
On the occasion of this party, Miss, was hashish smoked?
AK:
There was a spinello that was smoked, yes.
CP:
At that time, in October 2007, did you use drugs?
AK:
Every once in a while with friends.
CP:
Which substances were they?
AK:
Marijuana.
CP:
Now, when did you first meet Diya Patrick Lumumba?
AK:
I was at the Universita per Stranieri, but I met him through a friend of Laura.
CP:
Did you work at the pub "Le Chic" run by Mr. Patrick?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Since when had you been working at the pub?
AK:
Around the middle of October is when I started.
CP:
What days of the week did you work? Every day or some days?
AK:
In the beginning, I worked every day, and then we organized to work twice a week.
CP:
Which days? Do you remember?
AK:
Tuesday and Thursday.
CP:
What were your relations with Mr. Patrick?
AK:
I like Patrick a lot.
CP:
Did Patrick ever mistreat you?
AK:
No.
CP:
Insult you?
AK:
No.
CP:
Ill-treat you?
AK:
No.
CP:
Threaten you?
AK:
No.
CP:
So, Patrick always treated you well?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Always treated you with respect?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
You, in your work, Miss, what did you do?
AK:
I had to give out tickets during the day, and then when I...in the evening, I arrived at ten, and I would give drinks to the people that worked there... er, the people that came there.
CP:
So, you got along well with Patrick.
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Was Patrick an irascible or nervous person?
[The interpreter whispers something, the lawyers get slightly annoyed. Short discussion]
CP:
So basically, you agree with the fact that got along very well with Patrick.
AK:
Enough, yes.
CP:
So you weren't frightened of Patrick Diya Lumumba?
AK:
No.
CP:
Listen, on the evening of November 1 2007 you were supposed to go to work at the pub "Le Chic"?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Did you go?
AK:
No.
CP:
Why didn't you go to the pub?
AK:
Because Patrick sent me a message saying I didn't have to go to work.
CP:
Do you remember this message precisely?
AK:
I don't remember word for word.
CP:
What time was it when you received this message?
AK:
Around 8:15 or 8:30.
CP:
Where were you at that moment?
AK:
At the apartment of Raffaele.
CP:
Did you answer Patrick's message?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
When you answered Patrick's message, where were you?
AK:
In the apartment of Raffaele, I think. Yes.
CP:
What did you answer?
AK:
That I, okay, let's see, I said "Okay, see you later". Which means--
CP:
Did you also write "Buona serata"?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
How much later did you answer? At what time more or less?
AK:
I believe I responded as soon as I noticed I had received the method.
CP:
I appears that you answered 25 minutes later. Why all that time?
AK:
I don't remember right now.
CP:
It seems from cell pings that you were out of the house when you answered, in the center. Where were you?
GB:
"I object, I object."
[Crossing voices. GB: Can I express my objection?" GCM: It would be better to hear the objection out, then the court will decide. GB: No, the objection-- GCM: Can we have the question again, and then we'll hear the objection. Etc with talking at the same time.]
CP:
Where were you when you answered the message?
GB:
You have to ask the same question as before.
CP?:
You are Sollecito's defense, at least don't start defending...
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, but let's avoid these arguments between defense lawyers.
[Crossing voices, arguing, hard to hear clearly. CP: I rephrased the question. GCM: Excuse me, avvocato, put the question again and we'll see if there is an objection.]
CP:
Where were you when you answered Patrick's message?
AK:
At Raffaele's apartment.
LG:
She was already asked that, she's already answered.
CP:
How did you come to decide to delete Patrick's message?
AK:
I had a limited amount of space in my phone, and whenever I received a message that I didn't need to remember something for, I deleted them.
CP:
Why didn't you delete your own when you answered him?
AK:
Umm, I'm not used to deleting those. I just delete the ones that I receive, I believe. [The interpreter does not translate the first part of this answer.]
CP:
Listen, Miss...[an interruption, someone wants her to repeat the answer to the question and hear the complete translation.]
AK:
I wasn't used to deleting the ones that I sent out, but just the ones that I received.
CP:
But I thought I heard her say that there was limited space in her cell phone. [The interpreter puts this in English for Amanda. She is asked to speak up into the microphone.]
AK:
I'm not a technical genius, so I only know how to delete the ones that I receive when I get them.
CP:
And you don't know how to delete those that you send?
AK:
I didn't even think about doing those.
CP:
Listen, let's get to the evening of November 1. On the evening of November 1, 2007, did you have an appointment with Patrick near the basketball court?
GCM:
[Interrupting the interpreter who is putting this question into English for Amanda] Excuse me, excuse me. Also for the interpreter, also the English translation, everything is for everyone, this is not a dialogue between two people.
CP:
I'll ask a simpler question, Presidente.
GCM:
No no, we heard it. Please, go ahead. [The interpreter translates the question]
AK:
No, I didn't.
CP:
So, on the evening of November 1, you didn't meet Patrick?
AK:
No.
CP:
You didn't meet him at the basketball court?
AK:
No.
CP:
Then why did you say you met him at the basketball court during your interrogation of November 6, 2007, at 1:45 in the morning in front of the judicial police?
AK:
It was a complicated situation. I can explain it if you want me to go into it.
CP:
Yes, yes, later.
AK:
Okay.
CP:
You had the keys of the apartment in via della Pergola?
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato, she was saying something.
CP:
Sorry. Please, go ahead.
GCM:
She was adding something. Please go ahead. You can answer...
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
...with all the time and the precision that you need.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
[addressing the interpreter] Tell her that if she wants to add something, as it seemed she did, she can do it, and we will listen. [Interpreter puts this into English]
AK:
Yes. Um, the interrogation process was very long and difficult. Arriving in the police office, I didn't expect to be interrogated at all. When I got there, I was sitting on my own doing my homework, when a couple of police officers came to sit with me. They began to ask me the same questions that they had been asking me days...all these days ever since it happened. For instance, who could I imagine could be the person who killed Meredith, and I said I still didn't know, and so what they did is, they brought me into another interrogation room. Once I was in there, they asked me to repeat everything that I had said before, for instance what I did that night. They asked me to see my phone, which I gave to them, and they were looking through my phone, which is when they found the message. When they found the message, they asked me if I had sent a message back, which I didn't remember doing. That's when they started being very hard with me. They called me a stupid liar, and they said that I was trying to protect someone. [Sigh] So I was there, and they told me that I was trying to protect someone, but I wasn't trying to protect anyone, and so I didn't know how to respond to them. They said that I had left Raffaele's house, which wasn't true, which I denied, but they continued to call me a stupid liar. They were putting this telephone in front of my face going "Look, look, your message, you were going to meet someone". And when I denied that, they continued to call me a stupid liar. And then, from that point on, I was very very scared, because they were treating me so badly and I didn't understand why. [Sigh] While I was there, there was an interpreter who explained to me an experience of hers, where she had gone through a traumatic experience that she could not remember at all, and she suggested that I was traumatized, and that I couldn't remember the truth. This at first seemed ridiculous to me, because I remembered being at Raffaele's house. For sure. I remembered doing things at Raffaele's house. I checked my e-mails before, then we watched a movie. We had eaten dinner together, we had talked together, and during that time I hadn't left his apartment. But they were insisting upon putting everything into hourly segments, and since I never look at the clock, I wasn't able to tell them what time exactly I did everything. They insisted that I had left the apartment for a certain period of time to meet somebody, which for me I didn't remember, but the interpreter said I probably had forgotten. [Sigh]
CP:
Listen, when you found yourself...have you finished?
AK:
No.
CP:
Oh, please go ahead.
AK:
I haven't explained what I needed to say.
[End video segment]
GCM:
Listen, excuse me, please, if you need a break...
AK:
No, I'm fine.
GCM:
We can do it. Okay, let's go on, but if it's necessary, you can say so.
AK:
So what ended up happening was, that they told me to try to remember what I apparently, according to them, had forgotten. Under the amount of pressure of everyone yelling at me, and having them tell me that they were going to put me in prison for protecting somebody, that I wasn't protecting, that I couldn't remember, I tried to imagine that in some way they must have had...it was very difficult, because when I was there, at a certain point, I just...I couldn't understand [Start of 15:19 minute video segment] why they were so sure that I was the one who knew everything. And so, in my confusion, I started to imagine that maybe I was traumatized, like what they said. They continued to say that I had met somebody, and they continued to put so much emphasis on this message that I had received from Patrick, and so I almost was convinced that I had met him. But I was confused.
CP:
But -- did you really meet him at the basketball court?
AK:
No.
CP:
Then how could you be convinced that you had met him?
AK:
I was confused.
CP:
When you said this, how many police inspectors were present?
AK:
I don't know how many were police officers or inspectors, but there were lots.
CP:
Listen, but you were accompanied to the bar, they offered you a cappuccino over the night? They assisted you through the night?
AK:
I was offered tea after I had made declarations.
CP:
So they treated you well.
AK:
No!
CP:
Listen, you had the keys of the house on via della Pergola 7?
AK:
Did I have...the keys?
CP:
Yes, the keys of the house.
AK:
Yes, it's my house.
CP:
Apart from you, who else had the keys to the house?
AK:
Meredith, Laura and Filomena.
GCM:
Speak louder please. Always louder.
INT:
Me?
AK:
Her, or...?
GCM:
Both of you.
AK:
Oh, both. Sorry.
CP:
Laura and Filomena, where were they on November 1st?
AK:
They were, I think Filomena was with her boyfriend, and Filomena told me that Laura was in Rome. And..yeah.
CP:
Did you go to via della Pergola on the evening of November 1st, after 9 o'clock?
GCM:
Speak up [Interpreter is mumbling]
CP:
[and Intepreter simultaneously in English] On the evening of November 1st after 9 o'clock, did you go to the house in via della Pergola?
AK:
Okay that was all together, can I hear that separately?
[Interpreter repeats the previous question in English]
AK:
No.
CP:
Then why in the interrogation of Nov 6, the next morning, did you declare that on that evening, after 9 o'clock, you went together with Patrick to the house in via della Pergola 7?
CDV:
Excuse me, there is an objection. The question is general as a reference to the transcript of 11-6. There is more than one transcript. Some are not admissible.
GCM:
Excuse me, there is an objection. [Discussion, crossing voices, arguing.]
CP:
The transcript of 11-6 signed in the morning at 1:45 of November 6.
CDV:
Presidente, if there is an objection, it needs to be completed. I didn't even state what it was. I objected because it's too generic, in relation to the interrogation of November 6.
CP:
I can reformulate it.
CDV:
It's necessary to be specific.
GCM:
Excuse me, we need to wait for each person who speaks to stop speaking, and not superimpose voices even at the end. So, we have this objection, on the genericity of the question. Go ahead, avvocato.
CP:
Yes, yes. In the interrogation of the 5th/6th, at 1:45, you said that you went to the house in via della Pergola together with Patrick.
AK:
It's more complicated than that.
CP:
Do you confirm it?
CDV:
Another objection.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please. Yes?
CDV:
The genericity of the question relative to the interrogation of November 6th must be specified. I recall that this document was declared unusable by the Supreme Court. Decision of April 1, 2008. So whenever we refer to the time period of the 5th and 6th of November, when you refer to transcripts from November 6 in a plural form, it is absolutely necessary to give a time reference for the interrogation being referred to. Because there is one transcript which was declared inadmissible and the other admissible against others but not against Amanda.
CP?:
Excuse me, Presidente, but this objection is really "peregrina" [bizarre]. The interrogation of November 6 at 1:45 and the interrogation of November 6 at 5:45 have both been acquired [included in the dossier] in the body of evidence of the slander case, and thus they are perfectly admissible in the aim of any contestation from this attorney [CP speaking of himself in the 3rd person]. Otherwise, we would be in a situation that lies outside any logic of the legal code, so I will repeat and reformulate my question. On November 6, 2007, at 1:45, you said that you went to the house in via della Pergola with Patrick. Did you go?
AK:
The declarations were taken against my will. And so, everything that I said, was said in confusion and under pressure, and, because they were suggested by the public minister.
CP:
Excuse me, but at 1:45, the pubblico ministero was not there, there was only the judicial police.
AK:
Ha. They also were pressuring me.
CP:
I understand, but were they telling you to say that, too, or did you say it of your own free will.
AK:
They were suggesting paths of thought. They were suggesting the path of thought. They suggested the journey. So the first thing I said, "Okay, Patrick". And then they said "Okay, where did you meet him? Did you meet him at your house? Did you meet him near your house?" "Euh, near my house, I don't know." Then my memories got mixed up. From other days, I remembered having met Patrick, at Piazza Grimana, so I said "Okay, Piazza Grimana." It wasn't as if I said "Oh, this is how it went."
CP:
Listen, Meredith, before she was killed, did she have sex?
CDV:
Excuse me, I would like to speak.
GCM:
Yes, avvocato?
CP:
Is there an objection to this, too?
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato. Please, please. Avvocato, yes?
CDV:
I was asking to speak about the use of the transcripts of November 6. "Peregrina" [bizarre] -- now that she answered, you see there is no more artifice or impediment, we can talk. One thing is, that the declarations-- the sommarie informazioni testimoniali of 1:45 given without the pubblico ministero, and the spontaneous declarations of 5:45 with the pubblico ministero, should be correctly considered as constitutive elements and body of evidence as for being objective elements in the crime of slander. Another thing is their admissibility for the purpose of ascertaining the truth. Because, the second [5:45 declarations] were declared to be totally inadmissible erga omnes [for any purpose] since they were violating the right to defense of a person who was substantially a suspect. This is written by the first section of the Supreme Court. The first [1:45 declarations] are not admissible contra se [against oneself], against Amanda, since those declarations were being released by the same person who was to become a suspect for that crime. So, in what concerns the acquisition of these documents for the trial dossier, as by our knowledge, we know their content, they can be there. But on the issue of their admissibility for any future question, the second ones, the ones where the PM was present, are absolutely not admissible here. The first ones are not admissible against Amanda. We would like to state this.
CP:
Yes. [Crossing voices]
CDV:
Are you responding?
CP:
No no no, it is not a response.
GCM:
Excuse me, please. We took note, we have overcome the obstacles concerning this indication, about this objection, we will have time.
CP:
Signor Presidente--
GCM:
Excuse me, please! Please, let us avoid superimposing voices. There will be time for us to return on these things to make the adequate assessments. But the avvocato was introducing another argument subject which was unrelated to the declarations, he had introduced another aspect, so I--
CP:
Yes--
GCM:
Please go ahead, avvocato.
CP:
--which is the object of both declarations, the one at 1:45 and the one at 5:45. [Crossing voices.]
GCM:
It was about facts, though?
CP:
All right, I'll reformulate the question. Meredith, before she was killed, did she have sex?
AK:
I don't know.
CP:
Then why, in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45, did you say that Meredith had sex before she died?
AK:
Under pressure, I imagined lots of different things, also because during the days that I was being questioned by the police, they suggested to me that she had been raped.
CP:
And the police suggested to you to say this?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
And to make you say this, did they hit you?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
In the following days, the days after the crime, were you very afraid of Patrick?
AK:
No.
CP:
Then why, at 5:45 in the morning of November 6, did you declare that you were very afraid of Patrick, the African boy, owner of the bar "Le Chic"?
CDV:
Presidente, I renew my objection.
CP:
Oh, no!
GCM:
Excuse me please, avvocato, eh? You asked your question, he can state his objection.
CDV:
Presidente, I renew the objection to the use of the transcript of 5:45, it has been declared inadmissible, and so it is surprising that the defense lawyer for the civil plaintiff insists on making references to this document which, as we have already said at various times, in relation to the Supreme Court ruling, was declared inadmissible, so cannot be used or even mentioned. I don't see how my colleague can continue insisting and reiterating his questions on facts which are contained in this document. I find this really quite an excess.
CP:
Why did you say that Patrick--
GCM:
Please, please, avvocato.
[A long pause. Amanda murmurs "What was the question?" The interpreter murmurs an explanation of what's going on. Amanda says "Ah, thank you." Long pause.]
GCM:
What was your next question, avvocato? Go ahead.
CP:
Yes, er...
GCM:
We've already confronted this subject.
CP:
On the evening of November 1, did you hear Meredith scream?
AK:
No.
CP:
But you said that before she died, in your interrogation of Nov 6, 2007--
GCM:
At what time, avvocato?
CP:
At 5:45, you heard Meredith scream.
GCM:
Yes but...
CP:
How could you manage to know that before being killed she screamed?
GCM?:
Excuse me--
CP:
Who told you that?
GCM:
Excuse me one moment, avvocato.
CDV:
There is a new objection on the part of the defense.
GCM:
On this question we have had a number of remarks and objections. We have a highlighted objection, perhaps the parties are invited to discuss this specific aspect of the admissibility of this document. About the admissibility of this document that was acquired by the Court, but is not admissible for questioning the accused. We still have the objection that the defense has argued, recalling the ruling from the Supreme Court, although still in the initial phase [first question time], whereas the defense of the accused, sorry I mean the defense of the civil plaintiff insists, inversely, on considering that this document is admissible also for "contestazioni" [a remark to the accused about a contradiction among statements].
CP?:
I prefer, Mr. Presidente, to briefly read the argument myself. Cassazione, section VI, 6-6 94.
GCM:
You quoted it already.
CP:
Yes, but if I could just, to be clear, so we could avoid these useless objections. "The nullity as a consequence to violation to the right of defense of a questioning in which a defendant, or a suspect, would move slander charges against a third person, prevents us from taking account of the transcript by itself, but does not nullify the validity and effectiveness as a document, for a part for which the latter has no value as a questioning but rather the value of a denouncement of crime, if the slander case is in regard to the third person, an innocent. The nullity of the document as an interrogation in fact cannot cancel the historical fact of a notitia criminis falsely told, which has an autonomous conceptual autonomy by itself, being ius receptum [established by the jurisprudence] that the right of the defendant to reject any accusation from himself, or even the right to lie [ius defendenti] does not extend itself up to justify false accusation in charge to persons innocent of that crime. By Supreme Court 6-6-94. This is a slander charge, Presidente, therefore I have the right to raise it.
GCM:
All right.
FM:
Presidente, may I?
GCM:
Please. Let's hear the pubblico ministero first, and the other parties in regard to this aspect, and then hopefully the Court will retire to the counsel room in order to deliberate, and will then give indications, or try to give indications, for the continuation of the examination. Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
MC:
Presidente, without reading it or citing it literally, because it would be too long, and I see that the Court already knows it, the defense too, anyway I would like to invite everyone to read the ruling of the United Sections of the Supreme Court number 1150 of 2009, so very recent, in which the first part is about declarations of collaborators with justice, which doesn't concern us, while in the second part is established the absolute admissibility for the purpose of applying remand in custody, therefore it would go beyond the sentence [or evaluation] of the Supreme Court on what concerns this specific case. Hense admissibility for the purpose of remand in custody and thus the admissibility for "contestazione" of spontaneous declarations. It is very long and very clear, it recalls the previous jurisprudence as well, hence I believe that the exceptions and the objections that are made to every question are unfounded and I would even say this is instrumental for the continuity of Amanda Knox's declarations.
GCM:
If the other parties wish to--yes, yes. The civil plaintiff. Please.
FM:
Presidente.
GCM:
Avvocato Maresca.
FM:
We are repeating things that have already been said. We had this identical discussion in the first audiences, about the acquisition of the documents, which were actually already in the dossier of the Court, transmitted as the transcripts of the two interrogations. And at that time there was a discussion relative to the admissibility of these documents, with very numerous references to the sentence of the Supreme Court, by avvocato dalla Vedova. The sentence of the Supreme Court on the topic of cautional arrest [remand in custody], for all positions of all the accused, was acquired by the Court and entered by the various parties, so it is repeated, there is a page -- I don't have in front of me right now -- which the Supreme Court devotes to the spontaneous declarations made by Amanda Knox to the pubblico ministero, making a clear difference between the admissibility and the relevance of these declarations in regard to other people and in regard to the accused herself, obviously confirming the admissibility of these declarations in regard to her own position, as the Supreme Court teaches us in the development of this topic. So to this end, as today Amanda Knox is being examined and not any of the other accused, these declarations can be used in all tranquillity, both the first and the second, to be recalled and contested in questioning her. Furthermore, and I conclude, but this will also come up in my questions after the end of the examination by the defense, the topic of these declarations was also the topic of the handwritten memorandum that was acquired by the Court, and this same manuscript can be recalled, in my opinion, insofar as it makes reference to these declarations, for the same questions that we can ask the accused today.
CP:
A simple remark. The Supreme Court ruling?
GCM:
Responses are not permitted.
CP:
But it isn't a response. This is just an indication to the Court. The sentence of the Court of Cassazione that avvocato dalla Vedova was referring to was... [crossing voices] number 7. Just to be helpful.
GCM:
The Court will now retire to our counsel room to take a decision.
CDV:
I thought I was going to be able to say something else.
CP:
No no no no, it was just to say where it could be found.
GCM:
Please, go ahead, avvocato.
CDV?:
I thought I was going to be able to intervene on this point. I only want to recall that apart from [background discussion]--
GCM:
Excuse me, please. Yes, avvocato? Apart from?
CDV:
Apart from the recent decision cited by the pubblico ministero, I am making this a question of formal inadmissibility of a document. So, to this defense, if a reference is made-- [background talking]
GCM:
Excuse me.
CDV:
--if a reference is made to the facts of that night, there is no arguing [nulla quaestio]. We are in agreement, and our client is ready to answer. But I do not agree with specific references to the interrogation of 5:45 which obviously contains reported facts, because I insist that once there is a declaration of inadmissibility, it is a formal question.
[Interruptions.]
CDV:
Could you be courteous enough to let me finish?
GCM:
Please go ahead, avvocato.
CDV:
So, I insist that there is no problem with analyzing the facts of that night, but it was a formal question of the repeated references to a document which has been declared inadmissible, and I will abstain from reading the part of the sentence of the Supreme Court concerning this, which is absolutely clear, it seems to me that this is not ritually correct.
GCM:
The Court will retire to take counsel.
[End of break.]
GCM:
On the objection that was advanced by the defense of Amanda Knox, concerning the inadmissibility for purposes of examination of herself by the civil plaintiff Lumumba Patrick, of the spontaneous declarations of Amanda Knox on November 6, 2007 at 5:54 [sic], the other parties having been heard on this point. In the sentence emitted by the Court of Cassazione, first section, sentence number 99-08, dated April 1, 2008, it is asserted that the spontaneous declarations from 5:54 [sic] are inadmissible regarding both the accused and the other subjects involved in the same crime, being contrary to the defense guaranteed to a person who is already officially a suspect. It must however be noted that the said inadmissibility concerns the crime common to the various suspects and cannot be considered to concern also the specific crime of slander, for which we will cite the decision of the Supreme Court on this subject, section 6, number 10089, from February 2, 2005: the crime of slander can occur within spontaneous declarations of the suspect, article 350.7, and so they can be used in connection with this crime. For this reason, within the specified limits, the objection is rejected. Go ahead, avvocato.
CP:
Thank you, signor Presidente.
AK:
Ummm, I would like to speak in Italian. Thank you.
GCM:
Yes, yes. As we said at the beginning. But if you should have any uncertainty, you may return to the language more familiar to you.
AK:
Very good.
GCM:
But if you speak in Italian, we obtain a more immediate perception of what you are saying. Go ahead, avvocato.
CP:
Signorina Amanda, listen. On the evening of November 1, 2007, did you hear Meredith, poor Meredith, scream?
AK:
No.
CP:
In the interrogation of November 6, 2007, at 5:45, you declared that before she died, you heard Meredith scream. How could you know that Meredith screamed before she was killed? Who told you?
AK:
So when I was with the police, they asked if I heard Meredith's scream. I said no. They said "But if you were there, how could you not hear her scream? If you were there?" I said "Look, I don't know, maybe I had my ears covered." So they said "Fine, we'll write that down. Fine."
CP:
[louder] But I can tell you that on November 6, the police did not know that Meredith screamed before she died, so why would they suggest it to you?
AK:
I imagine that maybe they were imagining how it might have been.
GCM:
Fine, we can ask questions, but excuse me, avvocato, always with a tone that is reasonably --
CP:
[even louder, cutting in] So the police suggested it to you?
GCM:
Avvocato, avvocato, but please keep your tone reasonable calm.
[Voices]
CP:
Is there an objection? I think the microphone is too near.
GCM:
Ask question without having to be warned--
CP:
Okay, okay. You're right, Presidente, but the microphone was too near.
GCM:
In a cordial manner.
CP:
I'm sorry, Presidente.
GCM:
Fine. Go ahead.
CP:
Before Meredith died, did you cover your ears?
AK:
No.
CP:
Why at 5:45am on November 6 did you state that before she died you covered your ears?
AK:
In my confusion, under the pressure of the police, I had to follow a reasoning that they had suggested to me, saying that I should have heard a scream of Meredith. The fact that I couldn't remember this fact suggested that I must have covered my ears. So I followed that reasoning.
CP:
Did they hit you to make you say this?
AK:
They hit me twice, before I said the name of Patrick, to make me say a name that I couldn't give.
CP:
You declared that you remained in the house in via della Pergola, in the kitchen. Were you in the kitchen when Meredith died?
AK:
No.
CP:
Who told you? Who suggested that to you?
AK:
I kept following their suggestions. They asked me if I was in her room when she was killed. I said no. They said but where were you? I said I don't know. They said, maybe you were in the kitchen. I said, fine.
CP:
How long, during your time in the Questura, were you confused?
AK:
The whole interrogation lasted so long, and the whole time I said I had nothing to do with all this and that I remembered being at Raffaele's place. But they yelled at me for so long. The development of this state of confusion followed the fact that for hours and hours and hours, they called me a stupid liar. I don't know what to call it, a state of confusion, because in the end I was just confused, I was confused for a little while, but I didn't even know what to be confused about. It was very strange. I was under pressure.
CP:
So your confirm that the police told you that Meredith screamed and that you covered your ears.
AK:
They asked me if I had heard a scream. I said no. They said it couldn't be possible , because if I was there, I must have heard her scream or something. How could I possibly not have--
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato, but this question has already been asked and answered.
CP:
Let's talk about November 5. Okay, on November 5 you met Patrick in front of the Universita per Stranieri.
AK:
After class, yes.
CP:
Can you tell us about that meeting and what you said to each other?
AK:
So, I was on my way to Raffaele's house, and I crossed Piazza Grimana and he was standing outside of the Universita per Stranieri. He joined me, and asked me "How are you, what's going on, where have you been?" and all that. "Do you want to talk to journalists?" I said no, I wasn't doing well, I couldn't really talk to them, the police told me not to talk to them. Then he asked me about the police, for example. I told him they were interrogating me and I couldn't talk. Then I asked him, I told him I didn't feel like going out at night, I didn't feel like going to work. He said that was okay. That's all. Then I went to Raffaele's house.
CP:
Is it true that Patrick asked you on that morning only if you wanted to talk to the La Stampa Straniera?
AK:
No. He also asked me what the police had been asking me.
CP:
For what reason did you go to the Questura on November 5? Were you called?
AK:
No, I wasn't called. I went with Raffaele because I didn't want to be alone.
CP:
Were you scared?
AK:
In general, yes.
CP:
You went to the Questura because you were scared?
AK:
I was always with Raffaele because I was scared.
CP:
But I tell you that in your spontaneous declarations to the GIP you said you came to the Questura because you were scared.
GCM:
Yes, that's what she said.
CP:
You were scared. Of whom?
GCM:
The question is: Of whom were you scared? [The interpreter says: "Who were you afraid of?]
AK:
When I talked with my family after everything that happened, sometimes in the Questura or outside, my stepfather told me to be very, very careful, because maybe if someone could know Meredith was alone at home on that night, he might have been observing the house, then this person might also know how to find me, and he could be nuts. And I was scared because they hadn't caught the person who did this. And I was just scared in general to be alone.
CP:
Were you scared of Rudy?
AK:
Of Rudy? No.
CP:
That evening, did you go to the Questura to accuse Patrick? [The interpreter translates: "On that evening, you went to the Questura to meet Patrick? Especially to meet Patrick?"]
AK:
To meet Patrick? At the Questura?
CP:
Not to meet -- to accuse!
LG or CDV:
I object to this question. I object to this attempt to suggest an answer. She already said why she went to the Questura. She explained it twice.
GCM:
That is true. She has already explained why she went to the Questura on the evening of the 5th.
CP:
Okay, let's talk about your memorandum of November 6.
AK:
Okay.
CP:
Did you, on the morning of November 6, ask the agents of the judicial police for paper to write on?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Did you also spontaneously ask for a pen?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
In what language did you write your memorandum?
AK:
In English.
CP:
When you wrote it, were the contents suggested to you by the police?
AK:
No. It wasn't. I wrote it to explain my confusion to the police. Because when I told them that I wasn't sure, and that I didn't want to sign their declaration, and that I thought it was all a big mistake, they didn't want to listen. When I told them that I wasn't sure, they said that I would remember everything later, that I should be patient, and keep trying to remember. I was feeling uncomfortable about these declarations that I had made, so I asked for paper to explain my confusion, beacuse I really wasn't sure.
CP:
When did you write the memorandum? More or less?
AK:
I don't remember.
CP:
In the late morning? After you were served with an arrest warrant? Towards midday?
AK:
Well, I was still in the Questura.
CP:
Yes, but in the late morning? Of the 6th?
AK:
You know, there was so much confusion during the night, and so many hours of interrogation, that my sense of time was gone.
CP:
When you wrote the memorandum, were you hit by police?
AK:
When?
CP:
When you wrote the memorandum. Were you hit by police?
AK:
No.
CP:
Mistreated?
AK:
No.
CP:
Did the police suggest the contents?
AK:
No.
CP:
You gave it to them freely?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Voluntarily?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Listen, in this memorandum, you say that you confirm the declarations you made the night before about what might have happened at your house with Patrick. Why did you freely and spontaneously confirm these declarations?
AK:
Because I was no longer sure what was my imagination and what was real. So I wanted to say that I was confused, and that I couldn't know. But at the same time, I knew I had signed those declarations. So I wanted to say that I knew I had made those declarations, but I was confused and not sure.
CP:
But in fact, you were sure that Patrick was innocent?
AK:
No, I wasn't sure.
CP:
Why?
AK:
Because I was confused! I imagined that it might have happened. I was confused.
CP:
Did you see Patrick on November 1, yes or no?
AK:
No.
CP:
Did you meet him?
AK:
No.
CP:
Then why did you say that you saw him, met him, and walked home with him?
AK:
Because the police and the interpreter told me that maybe I just wasn't remembering these things, but I had to try to remember. It didn't matter if I thought I was imagining it. I would remember it with time. So, the fact that I actually remembered something else was confusing to me. Because I remembered one thing, but under the pressure of the police, I forced myself to imagine another. I was confused. I was trying to explain this confusion, because they were making me accuse someone I didn't want to accuse.
CP:
Okay, let's talk about your conversation on November 10 with your mother.
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Did you ever tell your mother, in English, that you felt horrible because Patrick was in prison because of your fault?
AK:
Yes, so many times.
CP:
Did you say it on November 10?
AK:
I don't remember the dates, but I talked about it with my mother, yes.
CP:
So if you were perfectly aware that Patrick was in prison by your fault, that he was innocent, why didn't you tell the penitentiary police?
AK:
Well, it's true that after several days in prison, I did come to realize that what I had imagined was nothing but imagination, not a confusion of reality. So I realized that he wasn't guilty of these things, and I felt really really bad that he had been arrested.
CP:
Why didn't you tell the penetentiary police?
LG:
She told them, she wrote it!
CP:
Excuse, me, I'm asking a question! And she didn't tell them! I'm sorry! She didn't tell them, avvocato Ghirga!
GCM:
[simultaneously, trying to stop them] Please, please. Let's avoid these arguments. Listen, excuse me, avvocato. You have the right to object to question. Some have already been made, and the Court will decide. But these dialogues between lawyers are not allowed.
LG and CP:
[at the same time]: You are right, Presidente. Yes, sorry, sorry.
GCM:
And the tone of the questions should always remain cordial.
LG:
I accept the reproof. He asked why she didn't tell the penitentiary police. May I object to this question? She wrote it in the memorandum of the 7th, on the following morning, to the police that were around her. She wrote it, it is in the dossier of this trial!
CP:
That is not true!
[Background talking]
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, but this question is not admitted because it was already asked, avvocato. It's the second time. Please avoid repetitions, also because the examination of the accused is certainly tiring, so if we could limit the--
CP:
We can suspend proceedings, Presidente.
GCM:
We could also suspend proceedings, but the indication is to avoid repeating questions that were already asked by the same party.
CP:
All right.
GCM:
Go ahead.
CP:
In the memorandum of the 7th, why didn't you mention Patrick?
AK:
I think I thought that everything would be clear since I had written that everything I had said in the Questura wasn't true. So that meant also the fact that Patrick--
CP:
But you didn't mention Patrick.
AK:
I said what I had done myself, and that was the important thing. The fact that I hadn't been with him, for me that showed that I couldn't say what had happened that night, in the house. I could only say what happened to me, and the fact was that I wasn't with him.
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato, where is this document?
CP:
It's there, Knox's defense produced it, the memorandum from the 7th.
GCM:
The 7th.
LG?:
Yes, we acquired also the 7th.
GCM:
So we have it. Go ahead.
CP:
On the 7th you wrote "I didn't lie when I said the murderer might be Patrick." Why did you write that in your memorandum of the 7th?
AK:
Honestly, I thought, like the police had told me -- the police had told me they had already found the guilty person. And they had suggested Patrick so much that I thought maybe it really was him. But apart from that, in that memorandum that I wrote in prison, the important thing for me was to tell what I knew, and what I knew was where I was on that evening.
CP:
Patrick was in prison because of YOU! You didn't even say it to the PM on the 8th.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me.
LG?:
I object to the way this question is posed! It contains value judgments that are not opportune. Guilt or fault is something which hasn't yet been determined. It can't be the object of a question.
GCM:
That is the position of the Court. Questions should not contain evaluations.
CP:
Signorina, more simply, this is my question.
GCM:
Go ahead.
CP:
In the memorandum of the 6th you name Patrick. On the 7th you write another memorandum confirming that Patrick is the assassin. But on the 10th, you tell your mother that you feel terrible because you got him put in prison and you know he is innocent. Do you confirm this?
AK:
At the moment when I named Patrick, I didn't know if he was innocent or not. I only said it because I was following the suggestion of the police. But when I wrote in the memorandum that I couldn't accept the things I had said in the Questura, for me that meant I couldn't know whether he was the murderer or not, I could only know that I wasn't there.
CP:
But then why on the 10th, three days later, did you say "I feel bad about what I did to Patrick?" To your mother?
AK:
Because I knew that they arrested him because I gave them his name. But they are the ones who suggested the name. They wanted me to accuse him, and I didn't like that.
CP:
To your mother, in that telephone conversation, you say--
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato. To just return to this question. The defense is expressing his perplexity and we also feel it. You are saying: "I didn't know if Patrick was innocent or not." This is on the 6th and the 7th. But on the 10th, you essentially say that he's innocent. So what the defense lawyer is asking is, what happened in between to make you change your mind? To change your conviction about the role of Patrick? It's this.
AK:
Well, yes. I knew he was in prison uniquely because of my words. At first I didn't know this. I thought the police somehow knew whether he was guilty or not. Since I didn't know, I was confused. But in the following days I realized that he was in prison only because of what I had said, and I felt guilty.
CP:
Why didn't you tell the police this in the following days, or to the PM?
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato? The days following which day?
CP:
I'm talking about the 10th of November. The day of the conversation with her mother? Why didn't you ever tell the police or the publicco ministero?
AK:
I had clearly written down in the memorandum that everything in my declarations couldn't be true because I didn't really remember them. And then, whenever police came to talk to give me paper or anything, they treated me like "Oh, so you have another truth now." So this was my way of telling them that nothing I had said in the Questura was usable.
CP:
But you accused Patrick in the memorandum.
GCM:
In which memorandum?
CP:
In the ones of the 6th and 7th.
GCM:
But chronologically, we had already gotten to the 10th.
CP:
Okay, fine, let's talk about the 10th.
GCM:
Yes. Change your question.
CP:
I'll move forward.
GCM:
Go ahead.
CP:
I'll repeat my question. On the 10th, you said to your mother: "It's my fault that he's here. I feel terrible." Why didn't you say this to the pubblico ministero?
LG?:
I object! He's already asked this question. And it was answered.
GCM:
Yes. It was already asked.
CP:
Yes, but she hasn't answered!
LG?:
Yes, she HAS answered!
CP:
Can she answer? I didn't understand.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me. Please.
CP:
I didn't understand her answer, President. Can you explain?
GCM:
So, the question was asked and has been asked again because--
CP:
[speaking over him] Because I didn't understand the answer!
GCM:
--the defense lawyer has not understood why -- in what regards the police, the accused has said that when they came to bring her paper, they said "Oh, another truth," so her relations with them were such that she did not feel that she could tell them this circumstance. It remains to ask why she did not tell the pubblico ministero. This is what the lawyer is asking. For what concerns the police, we have heard her position and her answer. We're talking about the period after the 10th of November, when this conversation with the mother was recorded. In what concerns the pubblico ministero, the lawyer is asking you why you didn't feel the necessity, like with your mother, of telling him that Patrick Lumumba, as far as you were concerned, had nothing to do with all this.
AK:
We are talking about when I was in front of the judge?
GCM:
After the 10th of November.
AK:
Frankly, I didn't have good relations with the police after that period, nor with the pubblico ministero, because he also had suggested declarations that got written down in the declarations. I didn't know where to turn. I felt better talking to my defense than to the police.
CP:
Excuse me, but apart from your mother, who else did you tell about this?
AK:
I wrote it down, and I also told my lawyers.
CP:
Can you be a bit clearer about this?
AK:
You mean about whom I told?
CP:
I mean about the fact that Patrick had nothing to do with the crime and was in prison because of you. As you yourself said. Who did you tell besides your mother?
AK:
I also told my lawyers.
CP:
And in the Tribunale degli Esame, why didn't you say that Patrick had nothing to do with it?
GCM:
Avvocato, avvocato, please, let's avoid this. Or at least give a chronological reference.
CP:
I think I'm talking about November 30th. On November 30, you were in front of the Tribunale degli Esame. Why didn't you declare this circumstance, that Patrick was foreign to all this, totally innocent?
AK:
So, that date is when I arrived here, to the Camera di Consiglio?
CP:
Yes.
AK:
That's it. So I said, I made a spontaneous declaration in front of those judges, saying that I was very upset about the fact that Patrick had been put in prison because of me. I said that. If I'm not mistaken.
CP:
Listen, the first time you ever actually said that Patrick had nothing to do with it, when was it? Do you remember? Of these people you told, was it to your lawyers? Or was it your mother on the phone on the 10th?
AK:
That Patrick had nothing to do with it? I imagined that he was innocent because--
CP:
But when did you said it for the first time? In the phone call with your mother on November 10th?
AK:
I don't know when the first time I told someone was.
GCM:
Excuse me. Before you told your mother, did you tell anyone else?
AK:
Yes, I wrote it in my memorandum of the 7th, and then when I discussed the situation with my lawyers, I explained why I had said these things. And I explained the fact that I couldn't talk about the guilt of this person. I thought that, at a certain point, thinking about how Patrick was, I thought that it wasn't even possible that he could be guilty of something like that, because he wasn't like that. But I wasn't actually in the house seeing anything, so I couldn't actually state whether he was guilty or not.
GCM:
Yes. But before you told your mother on November 10th in that recorded conversation, did you tell others? That Patrick, as far as you knew, had nothing to do with it?
AK:
I had explained the situation to my lawyers, and I had told them what I knew. Which was that I didn't know who the murderer was. That.
CP:
But listen, in the memorandum of the 7th, you did repeat that Patrick was the murderer. Do you contest that? You expressly say "I didn't lie when I said Patrick was the murderer. I really did think he was the murderer." So in the memorandum of the 7th, you confirm--
LG?:
I object to the fact that there is a contestation here, on a document.
CP:
I have the right, Presidente.
LG?:
You can ask a question about the document. But the way it's put by the lawyer for the civil plaintiff, I object.
CP:
So, why did you repeat in the memorandum that Patrick was the murderer?
AK:
I wanted to explain in the memorandum that I had said certain things, and I couldn't know those things. But at the same time, I wanted to tell what I really did know. So I recognized the fact that in the Questura, I did think that it was possible that had happened. That he could have been the murderer. But then in that memorandum, I wrote that of everything I had said in the Questura, I couldn't know. I was confused, and what I said couldn't be used.
CP:
On the 8th, during your interrogation, why didn't you tell the pubblico ministero that Patrick had nothing to do with it?
GCM:
Excuse me, but please let's avoid continually repeating the same circumstances.
CP:
But this question hasn't been asked, Presidente.
GCM:
Yes, she has already explained why she couldn't talk to the penitentiary police, or to the judicial police, or to the pubblico ministero. We spent a while on this. Go ahead, please, but avoid returning to the same questions and circumstances.
CP:
Signorina Amanda, did you accuse Patrick to save yourself?
AK:
No!
CP:
Well then, why?
AK:
Because the police suggested--
LG:
I refer-- I object! I refer to the memoranda and her following behavior.
GCM:
Yes. I agree. The first part of the question is not admitted because it was already asked and answered. But the part of the question concerning her saving herself is new so it was correctly formulated.
CP:
Well, I've finished for now. One last question. Did you ever say you were sorry to Patrick?
AK:
No.
GCM:
Excuse me. For the behavior, it is admitted.
CP:
I'm finished, I'm finished.
GCM:
It was admitted, and the accused already answered. Go ahead, avvocato.
CP:
Did you ever make any proposal to give Patrick some money?
AK:
Me? Personally?
AK:
Yes, or through your lawyers? Personally, of course.
AK:
Me, no. [Laughs] I don't remember that.
CP:
For now, I've finished. Thank you, Presidente.
GCM:
Now it is time for the examination of the accused by the defense. But if anyone needs to take a break, it is also a necessity for the accused. So we can suspend proceedings until--how long can we suspend? Then we'll have the questions by your lawyers.
AK:
Fine.
GCM:
So let's suspend proceedings for a quarter of an hour. We'll start again at 13:30.
GCM:
The time is 13:38. The audience is beginning. We are continuing with the examination of Amanda Knox. The defense for the civil plaintiff has concluded the examination it asked for. The defense of Amanda Knox now requested to examine. The defense of the accused.
LG:
Can I, lightly, call Amanda "Amanda" when I ask her questions?
GCM:
Yes.
LG:
Does the Court permit me to call Amanda "Amanda" and use the familiar "tu", because we've known each other so long. I know it is not the formal usage, but if you consent, I will use it. Also, for the tranquillity of the Court, there is a production of ours of January 16, of the memorandum of November 7th, and we ask for it to be accepted as well as other things such as the e-mail sent to friends in America on the night of November 3rd-4th.
LG:
If I can, I'll ask Amanda when the last time she saw Meredith was?
AK:
On Nov 1. That morning was the morning after Halloween. That night I was at Raffaele's place. I went back to the house to change, get some stuff to study. So I went to my place first, and I didn't see anyone, but for example I saw Meredith's door closed and I assumed she was sleeping. I changed, and put on some clothes that I had on the drying rack. Also during that period of time I started to study, and while I was doing that, I saw that Filomena came back with her boyfriend. They asked about Meredith and I said she was still sleeping. I help them put together a parcel for a party they were going to that afternoon. Then they left, and that's when Meredith got up and came out of her room. She got up, and we said "Ciao, ciao, how was Halloween? What did you do? She still had that stuff on her face, and she said she had been a vampire and she couldn't wash the stuff off. She asked me what I had done. Then I started to -- ah -- Raffaele arrived then.
GCM:
What time was this?
LG:
In via della Pergola?
GCM:
But at what time?
AK:
Let's see, it must have been around midday when she came out of her room, I think, but I don't look at the clock much. Anyway early afternoon. Then she went to went to take care of some laundry she also had hanging on the clothes rack, and also some things she had in the washing machine. Oh, before Raffaele came, we had talked a bit between ourselves about boys in general, because I used to ask her advice sometimes. Then Raffaele came and we prepared lunch together, we talked a bit together, then she went back to her room to change, I think she took a shower, and then when Raffaele and I finished eating, I started playing [guitar], and while I was playing, she came out of her room, she said "ciao" to us and she went out the front door and that was the last time I saw her.
LG:
Did you know that Meredith was the girlfriend, or let's say, was having a sentimental relation with Giacomo Silenzi? Do you know who Giacomo Silenzi is?
AK:
Yes. I know that the first time...we had talked actually, she kind of had a crush on him, and he often came up to our apartment and we often played together, for instance he played bass, and he often played with me and Laura. And Meredith would stay there to listen and we'd chat. The first time I understood that they were together, that they'd made this step forward in their friendship, was when we, Meredith, me and the boys downstairs were all together at this huge disco Rezzon together and they kissed. And after that they were often together.
LG:
Had you told Meredith about your crush on Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
How long before Nov 1, how many days had you already been together with Raffaele?
AK:
Well, to tell the truth, I met Raffaele when I was with Meredith. We went together to the Universita per Stranieri to see this classical music concert, and it had two parts. In the first part, Meredith was with me, but after the interval, she had to go home. Then Raffaele came and sat near me. And I told her right after the concert that I had met someone and we had talked. Then after talking to her, I went to work and he came, and I also told her that.
LG:
So we're talking about a few days before Nov 1? 10 days, 8 days?
AK:
Yes, that's right.
LG:
Now, in reference to the questions posed by avvocato Pacelli, when you told about meeting Rudy for the first time, was Raffaele there? Did you know him?
AK:
If Raffaele knew Rudy?
LG:
No. When you were answering the other lawyer, you described the occasion on which you first met Rudy. Did you know Raffaele then?
AK:
No.
LG:
You had a room near Meredith. Who else lived there? How did you organize the living together, the paying of the rent, the cleaning, the relations between you?
AK:
So, we were four girls in the apartment, I and Meredith on one corridor with our bathroom, and Filomena and Laura on the other side of the living room. Together, to pay the rent, for example, we would give our money-- for example, I would go to the bank machine and withdraw as much as I could at once, because I had to pay a fee for every withdrawal because I have an American bank, and I would take the money and put it aside in my room. Then when it was time to pay the rent, I would take the money a bit early and give it to Filomena, and she would pay by post. I think also Meredith did something similar.
LG:
How much did each of the four of you pay each month?
AK:
Three hundred euros if I remember correctly.
LG:
On Nov 1, or Nov 5, how much money did you have in your Washington bank?
AK:
So, I had worked a lot to pay for this...adventure, here in Italy [little laugh], to study, and I had saved eight thousand dollars in my bank, and my family had also helped me.
LG:
Here it says 4457.
AK:
After I did some shopping [little laugh].
LG:
Okay, okay. What is the maximum you could withdraw from the bank machine? 250 euros, 300? How much was it?
AK:
So, if I remember correctly, it was either 250 euros or 300 euros.
LG:
The house, when did you...when did you first come to Italy?
AK:
The first time I got to Perugia, in Italy in general, was was the first days of September, I came with my sister. We spent two days here to check out the town, the university, and see if I could find an apartment, a place to live. That's when I met Laura. She was outside the Universita per Stranieri, putting up a little ad with her number on it, saying she had rooms to rent.
LG:
I asked you before about how you organized the apartment, the meals, the cleaning. Was it fine, were there problems?
AK:
Well, for example, [laughing] I certainly wasn't the cleanest person in the house. For example, the only time Meredith said something to me, well, it's because the toilets here are a bit different from the ones in America. You have to use a toilet brush here and it happened to me often to just forget to do that. Once she told me, it was a little "awkward" [in English], well it was a bit embarrassing but in the end it was fine, it was "cool". Then before that, a few days before, Laura and Filomena had organized a program of who was taking out the trash and so forth. Before they did that, we were just taking out the trash when it was full, or when there were dirty dishes, someone just did it, it wasn't organized point by point.
LG:
Did that create a problem between you and the others, or you and Meredith?
AK:
No.
LG:
No problem?
AK:
No.
LG:
Now, about Meredith, you were on friendly terms? There were no problems?
AK:
Yes, I felt very confident with her ;or "I trusted her"]. I often asked for her advice.
LG:
Okay, let's go to the evening of Nov 1st. On that day, Meredith went out, and you and Gabriele [sic], what did you do?
AK:
So, I played a little--
GCM:
Raffaele.
LG:
Thank you, Yes, Raffaele. Sorry.
AK:
[ Laughing.] I understood.
LG:
What did you do?
AK:
So I played for a while, and then I know we talked me about this film I wanted to show him, because it's my favorite film.
LG:
What film?
AK:
The fabulous world of Amelie. [il mondo favoloso di Amelie]
LG:
The fabulous world of Amelie. [correcting her: Il favoloso mondo di Amelie]
AK:
Yes, it's beautiful. So I don't know if I said this before, but we said okay, let's go watch that. So we went back to his house, and...I remember that umm I watched a little...well, we read a bit, of Harry Potter that I brought with me because he said he knew some German so I wanted to see if he could still understand it, and I know ummm I looked on his computer, looked at my e-mail and ummm we listened to a little music, and then a bit later we watched the film.
LG:
Yes. And did you eat dinner?
AK:
Yes. But it was very late when we ate.
LG:
Fish?
AK:
Yes. Fish and a salad.
LG:
And then something happened to the faucet of the sink?
AK:
Yes. While Raffaele was washing the dishes, water was coming out from underneath. He looked down, turned off the water and then looked underneath and the pipe underneath "got loose" [in English, the lawyer translates "broke" (si e rotto), the interpreter translates "slowed down" (si e rallentato)] and water was coming out.
GCM:
Can you say what time this was?
AK:
Um, around, um, we ate around 9:30 or 10, and then after we had eaten and he was washing the dishes, well, as I said, I don't look at the clock much, but it was around 10. And...he...umm...well, he was washing the dishes and, umm, the water was coming out and he was very "bummed" [English], displeased, he told me he had just had that thing repaired. He was annoyed that it had broken again. So, umm...
LG:
Yes. So you talked a bit. Then what did you do?
AK:
Then we smoked a joint together. What we did is, we said all right, let's find some rags, but he didn't have a "mop" [in English] how do you say "mop"? [The interpreter translates "lo spazzolone", the lawyer "il mocio"] he didn't have one, and I said don't worry, I have one at home, I'll bring it tomorrow, the leak is in the kitchen, it wasn't like it smelled bad or anything, we could just forget about it for the night, and then think about it tomorrow. So, we went into his room, and I think I, yes, I lay down on his bed, and he went to the desk, and while he was there he rolled the joint, and then we smoked it together.
LG:
Did you fall asleep together?
AK:
Yes, first we made love, and then we fell asleep.
LG:
To make a jump in time, did you also wake up together?
AK:
Probably, but I can't be quite sure, because sometimes I wake up early in the morning, I don't remember well.
LG:
Okay, but was he there when you woke up?
AK:
Yes, yes.
LG:
Okay, taking a step backwards, the message of Patrick arrived before dinner?
AK:
Yes, I think we had only just started watching the film, or it was before the film. I don't know if we started the film first, or were just starting to put it on.
LG:
Okay. And you answered a little later.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
With another message, in Italian.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
What did the message mean to you?
AK:
Well, for me, the message meant okay, fine, ciao. In English, very often, ciao means "see you later". Literally this translates as "ci vediamo piu tardi." But it's just a way of saying ciao. And then I wrote buona sera. Or buona serata. I remember that.
LG:
I wanted to ask, when you received Patrick's message that you didn't have to go to work, how did you take it? Well or badly?
AK:
Yes, actually, I really didn't want to go to work that night, I preferred to stay home with Raffaele. [Laughs.] I was really pleased. In fact I actually jumped on Raffaele and went "Woo! I don't have to go to work!" And then....yes.
LG:
Now we come to the morning of Nov 2nd. What did you do the next morning, when you woke up?
AK:
So, when I woke up, I don't remember what time it was, but I think around 10, 10:30, I was there and I saw that Raffaele was still sleeping, so I watched him for a little while, then I said, okay, I'm going home to take a shower and change, and when I come back, we'll go, because we had this plan to go to Gubbio, because it was a holiday that day, there was no school for me, or anyway I was going to skip it. [Laughs.] Anyway, I wanted to go see Gubbio. So, I left his house, and when I got near my house, I saw that the door was open. And I thought, strange, because usually we had to lock that door, but I thought, if someone didn't close it properly, obviously it would open. I thought maybe someone had gone out very quickly, or just downstairs to get something, or to take out the trash, or something. When I went in, I called out "Is anybody there?" and no one answered, so I closed the door, but I didn't lock it, because I thought maybe someone would come, maybe they had just gone out to get cigarettes or whatever. Then I went into my room, um, and I changed, well no, I made a mistake, I went into the bathroom. I had these earrings, I had a lot of them, I like earrings, I had had them pierced recently, and I always had to wash them carefully because one was a little infected, and I had to take the earrings out and clean the ear, and that's when I saw some drops of blood on the sink. At first I thought they had come from my ears. But then when I scratched the drops a bit, I saw they were all dry, and I thought "That's weird. Oh well, I'll take my shower." Then when I got out of the shower, I saw that I had forgotten my towel, so I wanted to use the bathmat to get to my room, and that's when I saw the bloody stain that was on the bathmat. And I thought "Hm, strange." Maybe someone had a problem with menstruation that didn't get cleaned up right away. I used the mat to kind of hop over to my room and into my room, I took my towel, and I used the mat to get back to the bathroom because I thought well, by now...then I put the mat back where it was supposed to go, then I dried myself, put my earrings back, brushed my teeth, then I went back into my room to put on new clothes, I took -- no!
LG:
You dried your hair--
AK:
Then I went into the other bathroom to dry my hair, because there was no hair dryer in my bathroom. So I went there, I took the hair dryer, I was drying my hair, and then when I put the hair dryer back, I saw that in the toilet, which was that kind of toilet that isn't really flat, it's like this, kind of ew, that there were faeces on that upper part, and that for me was the strangest thing of all. In fact [swallowing], of all the things I saw, in the bathroom of Laura and Filomena who are very clean people, for me it was strange, and I thought, "What? What could this be?" Okay, so I didn't know what to think, but it was strange. Then I took this mop that was near my room that was in a closet thing near my room, and I went to Raffaele's house, locking the door behind me, because all the time I was doing these things, nobody had come back to the house. So um, I thought, strange, okay, let's see what Raffaele says, because I didn't know what to think, and so I wanted to talk it over with him. When I got back to his house, I...he was in the bathroom, and I started to clean up the floor in the kitchen, but it was by now almost dry, just a bit of water left because it had evaporated. Then he came out and we made breakfast, and while we were preparing it and drinking coffee, I explained to him what I had seen, and I asked him for advice, because when I went into my house, everything seemed in order, only there were these little weird things, and I couldn't figure out how to understand them.
LG:
How worried were you?
AK:
Excuse me?
LG:
How worried were you when you left your house?
AK:
Well, I had this strange sensation like, "What?" and it was a bit like that, I didn't know how to explain it in my mind. That's why I wanted to ask Raffaele. So he suggested I ask my roommates. So first I called Meredith, who didn't answer, and then I think I called Filomena, and she explained to me that Laura was in Rome, and that I should call back Meredith and then return to the house to see if there was anything stolen. I told her, look, everything seemed to be there, not as if someone entered and took things away, because my computer was still in my room, I saw that the television was still in the living room. For me, I hadn't even thought that there was a robbery. I thought maybe someone went in and out really quickly, because if someone leaves faeces in the toilet, maybe something had happened and they had had to leave really really fast. Maybe. So Raffaele and I went out and went to my house to look around and see how things were. This time we opened the doors, for example the door to Filomena's room, and I saw that her window was broken and there was a big mess. That's when I thought, oh gosh, it was a robbery. And I was running around everywhere.
AK:
I was going into all the rooms to see if there was anything stolen, and I saw that my computer was there, and Laura's computer was there too. What worried me was that Meredith's door was closed and when I called her, she didn't answer.
LG:
How did you interpret the fact that Meredith's door was locked right then? Did it seem to you something normal or abnormal? Did it happen sometimes or very rarely?
AK:
Well, it happened to me sometimes to find that her door was locked, for example if I called Meredith and she had just gotten out of the shower, and wanted to change her clothes, and I would get near the door, I would notice it was locked. But, then she was inside. She also locked it when she went to England. But the fact that it was locked then, I didn't know if she had gone to England, and if it was locked and she wasn't inside, for me that was strange and I didn't...
LG:
Okay, so that gives some clarification about Meredith's locked door.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
We heard in the trial that there were several versions. Then, what happened? You went into the house?
AK:
We were in the house. I went out, to see if the boys downstairs were home. Everything was dark, I knocked but no one opened, so they weren't home. So, when I went back upstairs, I said look, Raffaele, who should we call, because I don't know how to call the police? I didn't even know the difference between police and carabinieri because to me they were all the same. So he said, ah, let's call my sister, who I think was a carabiniere or worked for the carabinieri, I'm not sure, and she told him, she advised him, I didn't listen to their phone call, but I think I was talking to Filomena on the phone at the same time, because when I saw the big mess in her room, but everything else seemed okay, nothing seemed to be taken, also the fact that her computer was there, on the table, I said to her, I don't know what to think, but come home, because I saw these things. Then we went out of the house, because I was taken by this...I don't know, I felt really strange. I don't know, the situation was too strange, I didn't know what to think. So we went out of the house, also to look from outside at that window, and while we were outside, two people from plainclothes police came up to us and said "Ciao, we're the police". So I immediately thought that they were the people that Raffaele had called, so I said to them, come, come in, there's this door that was open, there's this door that's locked, then there are these faeces which aren't there any more -- ah, because when we were there before the police arrived, I had taken a really quick look to see if the faeces were still in the toilet, and they had gone down a bit, whereas when I saw them they were on top, the fact that I didn't see them, I thought mamma mia, someone flushed the toilet. I didn't really look inside, just from the entrance to the bathroom. So then I was taken by this sense of fear, because I thought mamma mia, while I was taking my shower, someone was here in the house! I explained this really really fast to the police, half in English half in Italian, because at that point I didn't speak very well, and they--
LG:
Who was in the house at that moment?
AK:
Well, there was Raffaele, me and the police, and a little later, Filomena's friends arrived first, I think--
LG:
Yes.
AK:
--and then Filomena and her boyfriend--
LG:
Yes.
AK:
--and they were able to...when they arrived, they took...I explained a little to Filomena, and we talked over everything together, there was all this confusion. The police had asked me for the telephone numbers, they said "We found these telephones, we don't know who they belong to, where is this Filomena?" [stops]
LG:
I was just talking with Carlo dalla Vedova, I wasn't interrupting you.
AK:
So I said, Filomena, I just talked to her, she's on her way, you can ask her, because maybe bla bla bla, I didn't...
LG:
Yes?
AK:
There was a little confusion, I kept having to go through Raffaele to be understood, and to figure out what they were saying.
LG:
And at one point, the door was broken down.
AK:
Yes, but I wasn't...
LG:
Of Meredith's room?
AK:
Yes, because I told them, look, the door is locked, and Filomena was going Mamma Mia, it's never locked, it's never locked, and I said no, it's not true that it's never locked, but it is strange. And I was at the entrance, and I felt distant from the conversation, because they were all talking really really really fast in Italian, and I didn't understand, so I was with Raffaele near the entrance, when a group of people, there was Filomena, her boyfriend, her friends, and the policemen who were discussing if they wanted to open this door or not, something like that, and they broke the door down, and the police said "Everyone out of..." No, no, the first thing I heard was Filomena who was screaming "A foot! A foot!" and I thought there was a foot, really just a foot. Alone. A foot, and they made us...the police made us go outside of the house, and at that moment I called my mother, and I told her, "Listen, I don't know what's going on, but there's a foot in Meredith's room. When I understand more, I'll call you back," because I didn't understand what was going on.
LG:
Listen, I'm interested by the following precise detail: when the door was broken down, exactly where were you?
AK:
I was near the entrance.
LG:
Did you see into the room, or you didn't?
AK:
No, I didn't see.
LG:
You say you didn't see, because you were standing a little bit away.
AK:
Yes, right.
LG:
And then you were all sent out.
AK:
Yes, and everyone was talking...
LG:
I'm asking you this because in your first interrogation, in the Questura, on the afternoon of Nov 2, you talked about a corpse in the closet.
AK:
Yes, in fact.
LG:
Can you explain to the court why you said this?
AK:
Well, outside of the house, everyone was talking and crying, people saying different things, asking and calling different things, and they were mostly talking about what they had seen inside the room. I was thinking, a foot? What could a foot be doing in Meredith's room? So Raffaele asked certain people, for me, to explain what they had seen, and we heard that there was a corpse in the closet, covered with a cover, with one foot out, and that's the image I understood, that there was a corpse in the closet, shut inside the closet, but there was a foot sticking out. That's what I understood, but then it was all confusion...
LG:
Sorry, were you finished?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
When you got to that kind of little place outside of the house, when everyone was outside, did someone arrive then, the Red Cross or a 118, someone?
AK:
Other officers arrived, I didn't understand who they were.
LG:
And you got into the car of Filomena's two friends, Paola and...?
AK:
Yes, it was really really cold. First, Raffaele gave me his jacket, but then the others saw that I was cold, really in shock, so they said come, come, let's get in the car and get warm. And inside that car, we talked more about... we kept on saying "But what did you see? Who was there?" So in the car, heh, still using Raffaele a bit like an interpreter, they explained to me that they heard from someone, from someone else, from one of the officers who were talking, that she...
LG:
Meredith
AK:
...that Meredith had had her throat slit, and at that point I became a bit...uh [sigh]...I closed myself off a bit inside...I cried a bit because I kept thinking but...how is it possible? No...[slightly desperate laugh], it was too much, so [sigh, voice trembling], and then, we went to the Questura.
LG:
To the Questura. After the Questura...there followed all these phases, you were heard, then they took photographs, and you did cartwheels and splits? Are those things true? How did they happen? And where did they happen?
AK:
So, on that first day, I didn't do those things, I was always talking with the police, but...uh...in the following days, but also...in general, I'm a person who kind of, when I feel in difficulty, I kind of try to "lighten up" [in English, asks interpreter; silence, lawyer says "non lo so", "I don't know", the interpreter then suggests "to relax"], to relax the situation, it was too heavy, really everything was really, really heavy, so somehow I had to...uh [sigh] I don't know, it's an outlet, it's a way of, for me it was a way of...
LG:
We heard that you did some free-climbing, yoga...
AK:
Yes, right, often people tell me "You're really flexible, how do you manage to do that?" and I say yes, I do yoga and gymnastics.
LG:
So, you were questioned on the second, we know, we have a long declaration. On the third, did you go back on Nov 3 to the Questura?
AK:
Yes, they called me every day.
LG:
Yes. Separately from Raffaele or together?
AK:
They called me on my own phone, so yes, alone, in the sense that they were calling me and not Raffaele, but anyway, I was always with him.
LG:
Now I'd like to fix your attention on the day of Nov 4.
AK:
Mm.
LG:
For two circumstances, then there's the dossier. Did you go back to the house in via della Pergola on Nov 4? and with whom?
AK:
Yes. So, Raffaele drove me to the Questura, then the Questura, I don't know why, because I had asked if I could go directly home, and they said no, come to the Questura, and then we'll take you to your house. So Raffaele brought me to the Questura, then the police brought me to my house.
LG:
With whom? Who was there?
AK:
There was an interpreter, and there were a lot of other people.
LG:
Was Laura there? Filomena?
AK:
So, it seems to me that Laura and Filomena were there, but they had arrived with other people, while I was in the car with the police and an interpreter, that's it.
LG:
We heard that on that occasion, you had a crisis, a crisis when...
AK:
Yes...
LG:
A crisis of crying.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Is it true? Do you remember?
AK:
[Sigh, voice trembling] As I was coming to understand what had happened in that house, I felt very very scared, scared even to get near the house, because I saw that there was blood also downstairs in the boys' apartment, that they wanted to ask me "But is it normal for there to be blood in this apartment?" so I said "No", and then they wanted me to look at all the knives, and it made a strong impression on me, and all the emotion that I had been keeping inside me escaped, because I'd had this shock, this inability to understand what had really happened, and since I didn't want to accept it...
LG:
In those circumstances, you also made another strange movement which one of the directors of the Questura called "la mossa", the move. When you put the paper shoes on. Do you remember, Presidente?
AK:
Honestly...
LG:
Do you know what that movement is? Do you remember?
AK:
Honestly, I don't remember that movement.
LG:
[To GCM] You don't remember? I'll repeat it. [To Amanda] Do you know what it is, "la mossa" ? In Italy, it means you move your body in a certain way.
AK:
I asked the interpreter to explain it to me, but I didn't really understand.
LG:
Okay. I won't show you myself, it would be ridiculous. [Laughing murmurs] Still on the day of Nov 4, you spent a lot of time in the Questura, you and Raffaele had a long conversation that was recorded. First you were in the Questura, then you went home, then you came back, and you were talking, it's all in the dossier. At a certain point, you were talking about someone called either "Shaki" or "Icam". Do you remember that circumstance and what you were talking about with reference to this person?
AK:
Okay, um, I thought of him because the police asked me repeatedly who I thought could be a dangerous person, someone who could be...who frequented the house, a man, they only wanted to know about males who visited the house, who were strange or seemed so to us for some reason, and the only person who for me, during the little time I had been in Perugia who had made a negative impression on me was this boy that also Meredith knew, whose nickname, not his real name, was Shaki, or "Shaky". Meredith and her friends said they called him Shaki or "Shaky" because he moved in a strange way when he danced, and then one time I had a...he went for example to the place where I worked, at the time when I was supposed to go home, it was very late, and he offered me a ride home on his motorbike. But during the ride, he insisted that I go have some dessert with him, and I said, "Look, I really want to go home," and he said "No, look, I'm giving you a ride, a bit of dessert is nothing," and he took me to have it, and then he took me to his house, which to me... I kept telling him again and again, "Look, I really want to go home, it's really late, I'm really tired," and he kept saying "No, no, relax, relax, come on, sit down on my bed, relax, make yourself comfortable". I said "No, look, take me home." So he finally brought me home, and that was it, but it left me with an ugly impression because I thought he wanted to somehow try something, and he was the only person that had made an impression of strangeness on me, like he had intentions that were different from what I wanted. So he made that impression on me, but that's all, because everybody else I met was nice.
LG?:
She's finished. But Presidente, I'm sorry, there's a whistling noise. Can it be eliminated?
[High whistling sound can be heard]
??:
No, we can hear it, it's coming from behind.
GCM:
Is it better?
??:
We can still hear it.
GCM:
It's still there?
LG:
Can I just finish on this subject?
GCM:
Yes.
LG:
Can I ask Amanda? Because I'm not quite sure...
GCM:
Yes, yes.
LG:
Was it still on the 4th that you had this conversation with Laura and Filomena to talk about the house, or another day?
AK:
I think it was on the 4th, but dates are difficult for me.
LG:
Okay, so tell me what you talked about.
AK:
All together, we talked about how stunned we were about what had happened, and we talked about the fact that the police was very good, but then also about what could have happened, why did they break in but not steal, and why...
LG:
And about your future, how to organize it?
AK:
Yes, certainly, we talked about the fact that at that point we didn't have a house, I was with Raffaele, I didn't like that also because he was helping me so much. And the others were also staying with friends, and we wanted to find a place to be, and I asked them if they had any ideas about where we could go together.
LG:
All right, now I want to go to the evenings of the 5th and 6th. So if you want to say something...
GCM:
Yes. Shall we suspend proceedings? It's 14:30, shall we suspend the audience until 15:00?
GCM:
The audience is beginning again, continuing with the examination of the accused..[some directives] Please keep silence as much as possible. Please go ahead, avvocato.
LG:
Thank you Presidente. Still avvocato Luciano Ghirga, still Amanda Knox defense. I would like to go back for two small details. I asked Amanda when she first came to Italy and she answered.
GCM:
Yes. If people could please avoid making noise. Go ahead, avvocato. Please repeat the question.
LG:
I would like to go back for two small details. I asked Amanda when she first came to Italy and she answered. Then she left for Germany, and then she came back, but she didn't answer about when she returned. When did you come to the house, more or less?
AK:
Um, at the end of September. The last days.
LG:
After being in Germany with your sister?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
When I talked about the piercings she got in her ears, I remember that she said she had a lot. If I say to Amanda, if I ask Amanda, eight on the left ear and four on the right ear, could that be the number of piercings?
AK:
Exactly.
LG:
More or less, to have an idea, because it's a lot.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
All right, I've exhausted this topic. Now, I said we were just coming to the evening when you were called in, or rather when Raffaele was called in to the Questura on Nov 5. Where did you come from? Were you having dinner somewhere? Do you remember?
AK:
We were at the apartment of a friend of his, who lived near his house, and we were having dinner with them, trying, I don't know, to feel a bit of normality, when Raffaele was called by the police.
LG:
Okay. So you went with him in the car, and you came in and they settled you somewhere, and later you were heard.
AK:
Yes. What happened is that they weren't expecting me to come. I went somewhere a bit outside near the elevator, and I had taken my homework with me, so I started to do my homework, and then I needed to do some "stretching", so I did some "stretching", and that's when one policeman said something about my flexibility. A comment.
LG:
Okay. Then you were interrogated, let's say interrogated, it was just for information. So you were interrogated.
AK:
Mm.
LG:
During the interrogation, there were several people in the room, did someone come who was involved in Raffaele Sollecito's interrogation? He was being interrogated in one place, you in another.
AK:
So, there were lots and lots of people who came in and went out, and after one had come in and gone out, another policewoman told me that Raffaele said that I went out of the apartment -- at least, Raffaele apparently said that I [stammering] had gone out of his house.
LG:
Okay. And the episode of the text message came later? After this person came in and said that? You don't remember?
AK:
Yes, yes. I think it happened after they told me that.
LG:
Now what interests me is that you should be precise about the term "hit", because being hit is something...was it a cuff on the head, two cuffs on the head? How precise can you be about this "hitting"?
AK:
So, during the interrogation, people were standing all around me, in front of me, behind me, one person was screaming at me from here, another person was shouting "No no no, maybe you just don't remember" from over there, other people were yelling other things, and a policewoman behind me did this to me [you hear the sound of her giving two very little whacks].
LG:
Once, twice?
AK:
Twice. The first time I did this, I turned around to her, and she did it again.
LG:
I wanted to know this precise detail.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
After all that, that whole conversation, that you told us about, and you had a crying crisis, did they bring you some tea, coffee, some cakes, something? When was that exactly?
AK:
They brought me things only after I had made some declarations. So, I was there, they were all screaming at me, I only wanted to leave because I was thinking that my mother was arriving, and I said look, can I have my telephone, because I want to call my mom. They said no, and there was this big mess with them shouting at me, threatening me, and it was only after I made declarations that they started saying "No, no, don't worry, we'll protect you," and that's how it happened.
LG:
Then you stayed in the Questura?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Then, at midday, or one o'clock, we don't know exactly, they brought you a paper called an arrest warrant. When they served you this warrant, it must have been around twelve, one o'clock. Do you remember?
AK:
So, all papers they brought me to sign, at that point, they were all the same to me, so I can't even say what I had to sign, arrest warrant, declarations, whatever, because at a certain point, I just wanted to sign and go home.
LG:
Right. But instead?
AK:
Instead, no. After a while they told me I had to stay in the Questura, so I had to stay, and I rolled up in a fetal position to try to sleep, on a chair, and I fell asleep, then I woke up, and I was there thinking and some people were going in and out, and during this period of time, I was telling them: "Look, I am really confused, these things don't seem like what I remember, I remember something else." And they said "No no no no no, you just stay quiet, you will remember it all later. So just stay quiet and wait, wait, wait, because we have to check some things." And at that point I just didn't understand anything. I even lost my sense of time.
LG:
And I wanted to ask you after how long they took you to prison. At some point there was a car, a police wagon that took you to prison. After how much time was that? You don't know?
AK:
Well, I can't say, but what I can say is that I stayed a while in the Questura, and during that time I kept trying to explain to the police that what I had said was not certain, and they took my shoes during that time and they took some pictures, they undressed me to take the pictures, and so it seemed like a long time.
LG:
So it was between this time and the time you went to prison that you wrote the memorial?
AK:
Yes. I wrote it there because, I asked to do it because I was telling them "Listen, you're not hearing me, give me a piece of paper, and I'll write this down in English to be sure you understand what I'm saying." But I couldn't really say that. I just said "Look, I'll give you a present." [Laughs.] It was because I wasn't really able to speak or understand then. So I wrote that, but after I wrote the first pages, I was in the middle of writing this memorandum, they suddenly said "Hurry up, hurry up, finish because we have to take you to prison." I stayed there like...I didn't expect to go to prison, I thought maybe I hadn't understood. I asked the policemen, the people who were around me, there, "But Why? I haven't done anything." And they said "No, it's just bureaucracy. At least that's what I understood.
LG:
All right Amanda, okay. Thank you. So you went to prison and spent the night. When did you write the second memorial?
AK:
So in prison I again asked for paper, because that's how I'm used to expressing myself, the way I succeed best, also to organize my thoughts, I needed to write them down. I needed to reorganize all my thoughts, because at that point I was still confused, I still had these images in my memory that finally I understood were a mixture of real images in my memory from other days mixed with imagination. So I needed those pieces of paper, so I could take everything and put it in order.
LG:
All right, I've finished the subject of the night in the Questura. When you made your first declaration, it was without the pubblico ministero. Then he came. Can you tell us if there was some discussion about a lawyer? If you remember, and whatever you remember.
AK:
So, before they asked me to make further declarations--I really can't tell you what time it was, I was lost after hours and hours of the same thing--but at one point I asked if I shouldn't have a lawyer? I thought that, well, I didn't know, but I've seen things like this on television. When people do things like this they have lawyer. They told me, at least one of them told me that it would be worse for me because it would prove that I didn't want to collaborate with the police. So they told me no.
LG:
And now, about your relations...did you talk several times on the phone with your mother?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Did you talk with Chris, your stepfather?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Did you write the mail on Nov 3-4 that is in the dossier of this trial?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
A very long mail that you sent to 25 people. What were you trying to do?
AK:
Well, the people around me, my friends and family, are very important to me, and I always tell them everything I think, maybe sometimes even too much for some tastes, in certain situations [laughs a bit]. Like, the first time I ever drank a beer I told my mother, and she said "No, don't tell me that!" Anyway, the first thing I did when for example I heard Filomena shouting "A foot, a foot" was to call my mother. And I was always talking to them because they called me all the time, continuously, to ask me how I was feeling, how I was, what I was thinking, where I was, because they worry about me. And I really needed this outlet of being able to tell them everything, everything I knew, everything I was feeling, and everything that was happening to me, because in the end what I usually do when I'm in difficulty is throw everything at the people I trust. It's a way of letting off steam. Especially when I write. I've always done it since I was small. For example if I had an argument with my sister, instead of yelling in her face or something like that, I'd write down everything I was thinking and give it to her and wait for her to respond. I don't usually manage to express everything about what I'm feeling and thinking with spoken words.
LG:
Listen, Amanda, when you were talking with your mother, you knew that she had come to Italy?
AK:
She had asked me if I wanted to go home to the US, and I said no, and I asked her if she could come here to help me find myself a little.
LG:
It never occurred to you for a moment to return immediately to the US with your mother?
AK:
No, no. They did suggest I go, if not home, well, they didn't want to abandon me in a place that was like the middle of the woods for them. They wanted me to come home to feel better, more secure, or at least to go to my aunt's house in Germany. I asked the police if I could leave for two weeks and the police said no, better not, so I always said I couldn't go until...but anyway, I didn't want to leave.
LG:
You wanted to stay in Perugia.
AK:
I had worked all that time to come here, to study, and I didn't want to drop everything and leave, because in the end I had this theory that ugly things can happen anywhere, and I wanted help in finding some normality and a sense of protection and security. So I needed my mother to be with me, but I didn't want to leave Perugia.
LG:
Do you remember the homework you wrote on the 5th?
AK:
Yes, I was in school, and for the university we had to write a letter...
LG:
We have this letter, do you remember it?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Do you remember saying Perugia is a beautiful city, you want to stay?
AK:
Yes, I love it, it's small, the people are nice, so I loved it here, and also for all the things the town offers, also...also the chocolate festival, I liked it.
LG:
All right, now I'll pass to another subject, the recorded conversations of the 10th and the 17th of November. The dates aren't important but it's about two conversations in prison, the first one with your mother on Nov 10, we talked about it before, and the second on the 17th with your mother and your father, both. They were transcribed, they must be in the dossier of the GUP. In these conversations, on the 10th with your mother, on the 17th with your mother and your father, there is a sentence... [long pause, flipping pages] here it is: it's the famous sentence "I was there. I can't lie about this. I'm not scared of the truth." Here it is, page 8, Presidente, of the transcription Nov 17. I repeat, she's speaking with her parents, and she says: "It would be stupid to lie about this because I know I was there." Do you remember that conversation?
AK:
Of course.
LG:
What did you mean by "I was there".
AK:
I was in Raffaele's apartment and I wasn't afraid [laughing] to say it.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Excuse me, you should speak to the Presidente.
AK:
Oh, I'm sorry. When I said "there", I meant in Raffaele's apartment.
LG:
So when you said "there", you meant "in Raffaele's house".
AK:
Yes.
LG:
In these conversations, I want to go back to a question already asked. In the first phone call with your mother, did you mention Patrick?
AK:
I can't say the date but yes, I often talked about Raffael...about Patrick.
LG:
If you don't know the dates, they can be reconstructed. But since you already told Patrick's lawyer, you can also tell me: what did you actually tell your mother about Patrick?
AK:
That I was really upset that he was in prison by my fault.
LG:
Okay. Now, Presidente, I have here a letter which Amanda wrote to me -- this is not a coup de theatre -- it's just that -- a letter written from prison on Nov 9 which I received on Nov 12. There are two letters, which I will produce. It's actually one letter, addressed to Luciano Ghirga, in two versions. It says "To my lawyers". This is on Nov 9, one at midday, one at 3:45. This is the document, later we can make a copy.
GCM:
Is this document known to the other parties?
LG:
No.
GCM:
I place at their disposal.
LG:
The document is an ordinary letter, with an envelope and stamps which was sent to her lawyers. In this letter, on the 9th, she talks about Patrick. Yesterday Patrick's lawyer asked you if you talked to anyone else about Patrick besides your mother, and you said you told your lawyers. Do you confirm this?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
I would like to show her this letter, to see if she recognizes it and can say when she sent it.
[Short discussion about the letter]
GCM:
Excuse me, if everyone could speak into the microphone. Could you please produce this original letter?
LG:
I commented on a document. After the parties have looked at it, I want to show it to Amanda, for her to say if she recognizes it, if it is her signature, if she wrote it, and when.
GCM:
Is it written in English?
LG:
It's written in English. There's a translation into Italian that I can give for immediate use, but actually, I won't ask a lot of questions on this, just one.
GCM:
Yes. Have the parties taken a look at this letter? We can show it to the accused to see whether she recognizes it.
LG:
We can show her the original.
GCM:
Yes, of course, we'll show her the original.
LG:
The question was--
[Longish silence]
GCM:
There are variously colored highlights which surely weren't there...I don't know. I suppose they weren't there.
LG:
No, I made them.
AK:
Yes. They're mine.
??:
But the English version is not in evidence.
??:
[Manuela Comodi?] And the translation, who made it?
LG:
Dalla Vedova made it. But just for our own use. No, I'm just producing the English manuscript. We'd like to remove--
GCM:
Yes, yes, but let's go on--
LG:
Presidente, we're asking to be allowed to produce the letter, the English manuscript. That's all. I'm removing this translation that we made in red and blue because I realize that... We can ask for a translation. Ours was made just for consultation. Here is the letter.
??:
Can we see it?
LG:
Here. Here's the letter, the envelope and the stamp, the authentic manuscript letter signed by Amanda.
GCM:
The accused recognized it as hers.
AK:
Yes, yes.
GCM:
So, let's show it to the other parties. The defense requests the production of this letter. Only this letter?
LG:
Yes, only this letter.
GCM:
Of this letter. Not the translation?
LG:
No. For the translation, we ask for a translation.
GCM:
They ask for the translation.
LG:
Yes. If you want a copy of the whole ritual...
GCM:
The Court will give what the parties propose.
A translation into Italian.
LG:
If they just want a translation black on white, we have one, but--
GCM:
With the consensus of the other parties, we can request a translation. But let's return to the questions.
LG:
[Simultaneously] I'd just like to ask a question about this letter.
GCM:
Go ahead, avvocato.
LG:
On page 2 of this manuscript, do you remember having written to your lawyers also about Patrick?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
We can see it. I said Patrick--
??:
I object, Presidente. Who made this translation? Nobody authorized this translation.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, avvocato.
??:
But I object to this kind of question.
GCM:
Objection to the translation we understand.
??:
But this translation into Italian, I don't know if it even corresponds.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, avvocato--
??:
[shouting] No, no, no, no, I'm not going to trust--
GCM:
[louder] --excuse me, excuse me, avvocato, excuse me, excuse me. We have some rules.
LG:
The interpreter is here.
GCM:
Yes. The translation is--
LG:
It's just two lines!
GCM:
However, we have the interpreter, so hopefully we can use the interpreter to check the contents of--
LG:
Or have her translate it immediately.
GCM:
The question that the defense lawyer is asking is: Do you remember if, in this letter, you also mentioned Patrick Lumumba?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Do you remember in what terms you spoke of him?
AK:
I wrote that I felt upset about having said the name of Patrick. Just that. Because at that time, I remembered and I knew that everything I had said was a mistake.
LG:
I wanted to know if she was upset for Patrick, that was my whole question.
GCM:
All right. Were you upset for Patrick?
AK:
Of course! Mamma mia!
GCM:
And you wrote about this being upset in the letter?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
The Court will arrange a translation of the letter which was given to the other parties, a letter which the defense requests to produce, and the Court of Assize will acquire the letter.
[Short pause]
LG:
On the morning of Nov 2, Amanda-- oh, sorry.
GCM:
Please, go ahead.
LG:
On the morning of Nov 2, were you at the Conad store on Raffaele's street at around 7:45?
AK:
No.
LG:
Were you ever at that Conad?
AK:
A couple of times, yes.
LG:
With Raffaele or alone?
AK:
With Raffaele.
LG:
Did you ever have a red coat?
AK:
No.
LG:
Maybe an ample jacket that seemed like a coat?
AK:
No. I had two jackets and some sweatshirts. No red jacket.
LG:
A very last question. In the minutes of Nov 6, it says in the dossier that you visited doctor Lalli in the Questura, and he noted a mark on your neck, here. Do you remember that mark, firstly?
AK:
Yes. [laugh]
LG:
How did you get it?
AK:
[English] "Errr....it's a hickey." [Interpreter translates, giggling.]
FM?:
[in the background] Is it a scratch from Meredith?
AK:
A hickey. From Raffaele.
LG:
A hickey. I knew another term for this, but we know...
GCM:
We understood.
LG:
For now, I've finished.
CDV:
Hello. Avvocato dalla Vedova. I first wanted to know if--are you tired?
GCM:
Yes. But please let's avoid making noise. It makes it hard to listen.
CDV:
Perhaps you could check the condition of the accused, if she's tired.
GCM:
Yes, yes. If you are tired and not able to continue with all necessary lucidity and freshness -- freshness is certainly susceptible to being worn down, it won't always be the same, but it needs to be compatible with a proper exposition. We have the time and availability to consider a break in the proceedings--
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
--and then start it again for the continuation.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
And at any moment, you can say "Basta" and we will note it. There. It is your right to express this in the terms that you wish.
AK:
Okay. Thank you.
GCM:
Can we continue?
AK:
Yes, I'm okay.
GCM:
As soon as you feel a tiredness not compatible with the act of testifying, just say so and we'll take note. There. Now, also this noise is a cause of tiredness and difficulty in the proceedings, so we are invited to avoid it. Please go ahead, avvocato.
CDV:
Very good. I wanted to start with some general questions, so as to understand your story. Can you tell us about the people in your family?
AK:
My family is really big. My parents are not together. They have been separated since I was one, but they live near each other. They chose to do that for me and my sister.
AK:
I think they wanted us, my sister and me, to feel that we were a family even if we lived in two different houses and my dad didn't live with my mom. So I always grew up with this idea of two families that are really one big family together in one place. Then there are my grandparents and my uncles and aunts, they all live around us. In fact, for example, if I'm doing gymnastics or something, I can actually run from house to house and have a nice outing that way. I can say hi to everyone.
CDV:
Do you have brothers and sisters?
AK:
Yes, I have three younger sisters, and cousins who are like brothers.
CDV:
And you have an aunt in Germany?
AK:
I have an aunt in Germany, whom I don't see very often, but we talk a lot on the telephone.
CDV:
How did you decide to come to Perugia?
AK:
When I started university in the US, I wanted to visit another country to study. I first started by studying German and creative writing. Following on these two paths, I didn't know if I wanted to be a writer or an interpreter, or both, but following this idea I heard about a program where you could learn Italian and creative writing in Rome. So I thought, how wonderful, I could learn a Latin language and then I would be more at ease in different countries, and I could also study creative writing while learning another language. But then, after having taken a basic course in Italian grammar, I liked it so much that, looking at the courses that were offered here in Italy, I got advice that instead of going to Rome where there are so many tourists, it would be better for me to go to a smaller place where I could be surrounded by Italians instead of other Americans and all. So this is why I decided to come to Italy, because my Italian was worse than my German.
CDV:
How many languages do you speak, Amanda?
AK:
[Laughing] I speak English, German and Italian now. I studied other languages, but I can't say I speak them.
CDV:
What other languages have you studied?
AK:
Japanese, Latin, and...
CDV:
I see. Listen, can you give us some information about this course on creative writing? And some information about the homework?
AK:
Certainly. There's been so much discussion about a piece of homework that I did.
CDV:
What was this course? Where did you take it? What was it?
AK:
I took so many creative writing courses, but in one of them, they asked me to write a piece on the ten minutes prior to the discovery of a body.
CDV:
This was the subject given to you by the teacher?
AK:
Yes. It was exactly the subject.
CDV:
For everyone?
AK:
What?
CDV:
For all the students, or just for you?
AK:
No, for all the students.
CDV:
Do you remember the name of the professor? This was at the university? Where did you take the course?
AK:
It was at the university.
CDV:
In Washington?
AK:
Yes, in Washington.
CDV:
What's the name of the university? Washington State University?
AK:
No, University of Washington. Washington State is our rival.
CDV:
Okay.
AK:
It's true [giggle].
CDV:
So, for this course, you did this homework.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Perfect. But what is writing for you? You already explained something about this today, but--
AK:
Yes, for me it's the way to really express myself, and the way to be creative, to produce something which for me means beauty, which for me means emotion, for me it's a way to express myself.
CDV:
And you've always kept diaries?
AK:
Certainly. I've got diaries everywhere. I usually have at least one notebook to write in with me in my bag, because I don't want to find myself in a situation where I have an inspiration and I have to write on a chewing gum wrapper or a paper napkin.
CDV:
Why did you write your prison diary? For the same reason?
AK:
Yes. For me, I had so many emotions that I couldn't...for me, it's a way of understand how I am myself, and to let off steam, to understand myself, to express myself, so I wrote this diary to help me confront the situation.
CDV:
And are you writing a diary now?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
And this diary which is in the dossier, from the period of Oct 8 to Dec 29, 2007, when you were in prison, do you remember what happened?
AK:
Yes. They called me downstairs and told me that they had to confiscate some things in my room. They told me I could either go up with them and do what I wanted and they would come later with a warrant, or I could let them take whatever they wanted spontaneously. I said they could, so they came up with me and they came into my room and looked in all my things, and they took everything on which I had written anything.
CDV:
Listen, in relation to this diary, there is a part in which you tell about the AIDS tests that were made in the first days. Can you tell us? It's written in the diary, but you can tell us exactly what happened, and also why you wrote about it in the diary?
AK:
So, the first thing that happened when I got to prison was that they made a [blood] analysis. After the analysis, they called me downstairs and told me that they had to make further tests because I might have AIDS. I was really shocked because I didn't understand how it could have happened that I could have gotten AIDS. But they advised to to think about where I might have caught it, so they wanted me to really think about it. So I was writing in my diary about how astonished I was, and then I wrote down every partner that I had ever had in my life...
CDV:
How many are there? Do you remember their names?
AK:
Seven.
CDV:
These are the partners that you had in your life?
AK:
Yes. All of them.
CDV:
Why did you write them down? For some kind of check?
AK:
Yes. For me it was a way to think about the facts: okay, I made love with him, but he doesn't have AIDS, what about this one? No, he doesn't have it either. These were people that I knew.
CDV:
And were you worried about this situation?
AK:
Of course.
CDV:
What was your reaction when they told you?
AK:
Mamma mia, I was crying, and they wanted to console me, they told me "It's okay, you just have to--" but I was thinking "No, I'm dying, I'll never have children", I was thinking it was the end of my life!
CDV:
How many times did they make the test?
AK:
Me?
CDV:
How many times did they make the test to check whether you were positive?
AK:
So, I think it was three times. I think they made one where it was negative, then one where it was maybe positive, maybe negative, and then one where it was negative.
CDV:
How much time passed between the first and the last?
AK:
Two weeks.
CDV:
So for two weeks, you were worried about having AIDS.
AK:
More than that, it was panic, I was crying.
CDV:
This was during the first period of time that you were in prison? Do you remember the period of time?
AK:
Yes. In fact, I didn't understand anything. I was there with a cellmate who was going crazy, who kept yelling "Don't touch me! You have AIDS!" and then there was this inspector who kept coming to talk to me, saying "Ah, come on..."
CDV:
What? An inspector or a doctor?
AK:
There was an inspector who called every day...
CDV:
And then there was a doctor?
AK:
And there was also a doctor who also called me every day.
[At some point, LG takes over the questioning (it's definitely him at the beginning of Audio #11). I can't tell exactly when it happens. It might be here.]
LG:
Let's go back to your arrival in Perugia. Did you know Italian at that time? Compared to now, for example?
AK:
I had studied elementary grammar. Then I forgot everything over the summer. Then I got here and started working on these basic elements again, and I was trying to put myself in situation where I had to understand or try to understand, so usually I understood about half of what was going on.
LG:
With your roommates, Laura and Filomena, and with Meredith, what language did you speak?
AK:
With Meredith I spoke English, and we even tried to speak Italian, but after a certain time when we got to know each other, when we wanted to really discuss something more than "Let's make pasta", then I talked with her in English. With Laura we spoke a mixture of English and Italian, and I couldn't speak that much with Filomena because she didn't speak very good English.
LG:
What language did you speak with Marco Zaroli?
AK:
With them I spoke in Italian, but I couldn't even really speak with them, so I was always there listening to their conversation, maybe sometimes saying some little thing, but above all I didn't speak much with them.
LG:
And with Luca Altieri, how did you speak?
AK:
Always a little in English with a little Italian, and above all just listening.
LG:
And with Raffaele, what language did you speak?
AK:
There too it was a mixture of English and Italian, but more than anything, he often had to translate things into English for me, because I was forcing myself to try to speak Italian, and then when I didn't understand, which happened often...
LG:
And how is it that you speak so well now?
AK:
Me?
LG:
Yes.
AK:
Because I employ my days studying.
LG:
What do you do in prison? You read, you watch television, you read newspapers?
AK:
I mostly read, and study.
LG:
What are you reading now?
AK:
Right now I'm reading "Hadrian's Memoirs" by Marguerite Yourcenar [she has no idea how to pronounce this name]. She's a French writer but I'm reading her in Italian translation.
LG:
Now, could you tell us something about your relations with your roommates, above all making a distinction between Laura and Filomena and then Meredith. Your relations with Laura and Filomena, how were they?
AK:
So, I liked Laura really a lot because she's a fascinating person. She was like a lawyer in the day, and then a guitar-playing free spirit in the evening.
LG:
You played guitar too, didn't you?
AK:
Yes, yes. We played together.
LG:
Did you have your own guitar?
AK:
Yes. Well, I had a guitar in the States. Then when I came to Italy, I asked Laura if I could use her second guitar while she played hers.
LG:
So with Laura, you played guitar together and she lent you a guitar.
AK:
Yes. We also did yoga together.
LG:
You did yoga?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And with Meredith?
AK:
With Meredith, we spoke mostly about literature, because she read so much. Even when it wasn't for school, she read mysteries and things. What would often happen is that we would find ourselves together on the balcony taking the sun, and she would have a book and I'd have my guitar, and we'd be together like that.
LG:
What do you remember about your life together? Were there some experiences you had together, like the Chocolate Festival?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Or taking the sun, those things.
AK:
Yes. For instance, we went together to the Chocolate Festival, and there was a band that we liked a lot, that wore this green shirt--
LG:
You mean a musical band?
AK:
Yes, musical, and they were dancing with their instruments and they were making a film, and they filmed her and she was saying "No, no, don't film me!"
LG:
Did you take pictures? On that occasion?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Where are those pictures?
AK:
On my computer.
LG:
But your computer, you heard that it was examined? The last time you used it, it was working?
AK:
It was working fine.
LG:
So in your computer there were photographs of you and Meredith at the Chocolate Festival?
AK:
That, and pictures of us going around, and she asked me to take pictures of her next to her window, where you could see the view. They're all in the computer.
GCM:
Excuse me, difensore. When was the last time that you used your computer?
AK:
I was listening to music. When I was at home, my computer was always on, and when I left I turned it off. The last time I used it must have been on Nov 1, when I came home. I changed clothes, I listened to music, I checked this and that, and when I left, I turned it off.
LG:
How do you explain that when your computer was subjected to examination, it was burned up by an electric shock? Do you have any explanation?
AK:
I think someone burned up my computer.
LG:
Thank you. Now, did you also go to restaurants with Meredith?
AK:
Yes. In fact, the first day that--
LG:
Did you like Japanese cuisine?
AK:
Yes, yes, sometimes we did go. Once was on the very first evening, we went to a pizzeria with her and her English friends, and another time we went to Cano d'Orso [? name of restaurant] to watch a rugby game, and another time we went with Laura and Filomena to a Chinese restaurant, and another time we went all together to an Italian restaurant.
LG:
Did you also get together with Meredith's English friends?
AK:
Yes, but not much. [Laughs] Not much, because in the end, after I got a job with Patrick, we didn't get together much, because they didn't go to my university, they went to Meredith's university. So we didn't meet there, and then I wasn't going around having fun any more, I was going to work. But that was fine.
LG:
But you preferred to be with Italians or foreigners?
AK:
I preferred to be with Italians, because I wanted to feel Italian, I didn't come to Italy to feel English.
LG:
So, on this question of the English friends, you heard them hear in court, do you remember?
AK:
Yes, yes.
LG:
And what was your impression of the declarations of Amy Frost, Sophie Purton, Natalie Hayward and....and Helen Powell?
GCM:
Avvocato, is this just a question of evaluations of the testimonies--
LG:
Of the facts they reported.
GCM:
--or are there some specific circumstances? Once can't just ask for impressions on the testimony.
AK:
By the fact that--
GCM:
Excuse me, could we make the question explicit? Because on impressions, one can't pronounce oneself, one can't expound--
LG:
Certainly not. I'm talking about impressions of the facts that the girls presented.
GCM:
Yes but..with reference to...I don't know.
LG:
For instance on the fact that there was a certain friction between you and-- between the roommates. The English girls all said that there was some friction in the house over some specific facts. Do you agree with this, with what the girls said?
AK:
Well, actually, I was astonished and didn't feel right about what they said, because I don't think I deserved that attitude. I never did anything with them that deserved that.
LG:
But was it true that there was friction in the house?
AK:
For me, no.
GCM:
But do you remember this? These friends of Meredith stated that Meredith had some complaints during confrontations--
AK:
Meredith--
GCM:
-- if it's true, about the ways of living together, of keeping order, in the bathroom and the house. This essentially, if I remember right, is what the English friends said when they referred to what Meredith told them about your behavior.
AK:
Certainly. When Meredith had a problem with my behavior she just told me, and that was it. There was nothing that stayed hidden or for which we couldn't find some solution. If she had something to tell me, she told me.
LG:
Listen, did your relations with Meredith actually change over the time period?
AK:
No, it was only that I went out to work, so I didn't have time any more, or even the energy to go around, to have a drink at Merlin's for example.
LG:
On the night of Halloween, is it true that you had some contact?
AK:
Yes, I sent her a text message to ask her what she wanted to do, because I wanted to--
LG:
This was on October 31 2007, the night of Halloween? October 31?
AK:
Yes, yes. Yes, I wanted to ask her what she was doing because I wanted to know if she wanted to meet me.
LG:
So, returning to the question of friction, is it true that there was a rotation system for cleaning the house? Someone had come up with a cleaning system?
AK:
Yes, but it was very recent, I mean from just before the crime. I -- we had done that just a few days before. This whole system with turns came quite late.
LG:
I see. Did you have bleach [candeggina] in the house? Do you know what "candeggina" is?
AK:
I didn't know before going to prison, but now I do. I didn't know what was in there. If there was any, really.
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato, when you say "in the house", do you mean in the via della Pergola?
LG:
Via della Pergola, yes.
AK:
I didn't know if there was any there, in the house.
LG:
I see. From certain declarations which you spontaneously emitted in the following days, you were heard to mention a certain "Juve". Who is this Juve?
AK:
Juve is the friend of Laura who found me the job with Patrick, because he worked for Patrick. In fact, he was my personal contact at work. At least, he was the one who often had to translate for me, to tell me what I was supposed to do, also because since my Italian wasn't great, I would listen to Patrick, and then turn to Juve to ask him what I was really supposed to do. He spoke to me in English.
LG:
But what is his nationality?
AK:
I think he was Albanian? I don't remember. But he was a foreigner. He hadn't been in Italy very long.
LG:
We've already spoken about your relations with Patrick. But I wanted to ask you one thing. Did Patrick ever have any complaints about you? For example, because you didn't show up for work, or because of the way you worked?
AK:
Ye-es...he told me once, at least, once he asked me to be a little more professional at work. Maybe I was chatting too much. Or maybe I didn't...I don't know.
LG:
And when you met Raffaele, was Meredith also there?
AK:
When I met Raffaele? Yes, yes, she was at that concert with me, yes.
LG:
And then on the 26th, when you introduced Raffaele and Filomena, who else was there with you? On the 26th?
GCM:
The 26th of October?
LG:
October 26, 2007, yes.
AK:
So, the 26 of October.
GCM:
The day of the concert?
AK:
[simultaneously] Was that the day of the concert?
LG:
The concert was on the 25th. This was the next day.
AK:
Oh, the next day. Sorry, dates are difficult for me. So, the question was...
LG:
If you remembered the 26th, but if you don't remember...
AK:
I don't remember from the date, but maybe from the circumstances.
LG:
Well, do you remember the 30th of October, when you talked with Laura and Filomena?
AK:
Yes, I asked for some advice from the girls about Raffaele, because I felt a little guilty, since I still had some feelings for an ex-boyfriend that I had left behind in the States.
LG:
This DJ?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
The one with the nickname DJ?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Did you also talk about the rent at that time, on October 30? About the payment?
AK:
I think Meredith offered to pay right away, but they said no no, wait till the actual pay date arrives and give us the money then.
LG:
About the party that was on the 31st, did you know that Mezzetti was going to Viterbo and that Filomena was also going out?
AK:
Well, I recall that -- this is for November 1st or for Halloween?
LG:
For the 30th, the 30th of October.
AK:
Oh, the 30th, before! I think that Filomena mentioned a party to me but Laura, I don't think she told me.
LG:
I see. No, can you tell us what happened on the 31st, the evening of Halloween?
AK:
Yes. I went to Le Chic, Patrick's pub, I spent a little while there, and then I joined a friend of mine, Spiros, a friend I had met around town, in a bar where you could use internet, and I joined him near Merlin, but we didn't enter, in fact he was just coming out, so we went to a different place, and then I was tired, so they left me in the center and Raffaele joined me, and we went to his house.
LG:
At what time?
AK:
Around 2, maybe?
LG:
And did you know what Meredith was doing that evening?
AK:
Um, she said that she was going out with the girls, so...
LG:
You sent her a text message on that evening, to Meredith?
AK:
Certainly. I asked her if she wanted to meet me, and I think she answered that she was going with the girls.
GCM:
Excuse me, when you say "the girls", you are referring to...
AK:
The English girls. That group.
GCM:
Meredith's English friends?
LG:
Yes. But the message that Meredith sent you on October 31 2007, at 19:04, "yes I have a party, but I have to go to a friend's house for dinner--"
AK:
Oh, right.
LG:
"what's your program? x" What does "x" mean? A kiss?
AK:
Yes, a kiss. "x" is a kiss.
LG:
Do you remember this message?
AK:
Yes, yes. In fact the day after Halloween, the 1st of November, she was telling me about it when she woke up. She explained to me that the Halloween party that they--there was this--they had made a kind of pink fruit juice, and a hand made of ice that they put inside it. She thought that was really ghostly.
LG:
So, to this test message of 19:04, you answered with another, at 20:03 still on October 31, saying "I'm going to Le Chic for a bit, and afterwards who knows, maybe we'll see each other. Call me. What are you doing this evening? Do you want to meet? Do you have a costume?"
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Do you remember that?
AK:
Yes, yes.
LG:
Can you tell us about the relationship between Meredith and Giacomo Silenzi? When did it start?
AK:
They kissed for the first time at Rezzon, this disco, and then they spent the night together, and then they went on like that, seeing each other a bit, always around the house...
GCM:
Excuse me, if you could give the dates? If you remember when.
AK:
[sigh] It must have been around the middle of October, but I...
GCM:
When?
AK:
Around the middle of October.
GCM:
Middle of October?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Did you already know -- just to help situate this episode in time, did you already know Raffaele Sollecito when--
AK:
No, no.
GCM:
So this was before you met him.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Before. Mid-October.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Go ahead, avvocato.
LG:
So what kind of relationship did they have? Was it a passion? Was Meredith enthusiastic about this boy?
AK:
Um, I wouldn't say she was exactly in love, because she said she still wanted to...she wanted to be a little bit more free, maybe see him, maybe go out... because it's not like they were going out together. Usually they were only together around the house. So she wasn't exactly in love. In fact, she told me that she wasn't in love with him. A kind of crush.
LG:
And what kind of activities did you do together, for example --
AK:
So, Meredith and I?
LG:
Did you go to restaurants?
GCM:
Together with whom, can you say?
LG:
Together with Meredith and Silenzi.
AK:
You mean what they did together?
LG:
What they did together with you. Weren't you with them sometimes?
AK:
Oh, yes. Around the house, we were always playing at this game where we were trying to understand each other, because that was also a game in the end, trying to understand what we were saying to each other. Then, when we were together at night, sometimes we watched television, for example we watched "Ciao Darwin".
LG:
Did you smoke joints together?
AK:
[Swallowing audibly] Sometimes, yes.
LG:
Who got them for you?
AK:
Usually it was the boys from downstairs, and we smoked them together.
LG:
Were you aware that there was a plantation in the apartment downstairs?
AK:
[Giggles innocently] Noooo.
LG:
Did you know that there were keys to the downstairs apartment in your house?
AK:
No.
LG:
You never saw the keys to the downstairs apartment in your house?
AK:
No. They just gave me a key to the house and said "This is yours."
GCM:
Who gave you the keys to the house?
AK:
Laura.
GCM:
So these keys were to the main door of the house --
AK:
Yes, the entrance door, and --
GCM:
-- and to your room. Two keys.
AK:
-- oh, in fact --
GCM:
Excuse me, two keys?
AK:
No. I didn't have a key to my room. I think there was one once, but I never locked it, so the key I had with me was only for the entrance door.
GCM:
The main door.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Of your room, no.
AK:
No.
LG:
I am trying to follow a chronology which brings us now to the 1st of November. We already analysed -- I'll try not to repeat myself, and if I do it, excuse me, but it's so vast, the analysis of the elements is so vast after I think a good 30 hearings, that it's necessary, after all the elements produced by the pubblico ministero, to turn back to what happened on the 1st of November. So first of all, I wanted to know, we heard that you woke up and what you did, on the morning of November 1st.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Do you remember whom you met that morning? What you did? Something to do with a package for a party?
AK:
So, on November 1st, yes, there was Filomena who came back in a big hurry, and she asked me to help her boyfriend to put together this package, which was a present for a friend.
LG:
Was Meredith there?
AK:
I think Meredith was still sleeping.
LG:
Do you remember how you were dressed?
AK:
Who?
LG:
You.
AK:
Me?
LG:
Yes.
AK:
I think I was wearing jeans and a sweatshirt.
LG:
Jeans and a sweatshirt.
LG:
Jeans and a sweatshirt. Can you describe the sweatshirt?
AK:
It was a striped sweatshirt, grey and black, with a hood.
LG:
In relation to these clothes, had you done any laundry that morning? Had you done washing together or separately, or used the drying rack? Did you do any kind of laundry activity on that morning?
AK:
Well, it was totally normal for me to put things on the drying rack along with the things belonging to the others. So, yes, I took the things I had that were dry and I put them in my room.
LG:
Was it also normal for you to mix clothes together inside the washing machine?
AK:
It was normal, when someone needed to use it, they just put stuff in and did it. Yes, yes.
LG:
Do you remember a friend who dropped by in the afternoon -- I'm going over this quickly because we already analysed the lunch and so on, it doesn't seem important to me to cover it again -- but, do you remember a friend of Raffaele, for the question of the suitcase --
AK:
Ummmm--
LG:
We heard her testimony here. Popovic.
FM?:
Yes, but Presidente, please can we try to avoid suggesting names, timetables and so forth. We were talking about a friend, a person who came to visit.
GCM:
yes. Excuse me, yes. But it was to recall the episode that is the subject of the question. What day are we, avvocato? The evening of November 1st?
AK:
November 1st, yes.
LG:
The afternoon of November 1st. Do you remember if Raffaele had something to do for a certain Popovic Jovana, that he was supposed to help her to bring a suitcase--
FM?:
Objection! She can answer by herself [? hard to make out]
GCM:
[simultaneously] Excuse me! Excuse me, please. If necessary, we can briefly suspend proceedings. We should try to avoid these moments which do not facilitate anything.
LG:
Can you tell us about this friend of Raffaele's?
GCM:
That's right. Before anything, did you know this girl?
AK:
I didn't know the girl, and in fact, when she came, she started talking to me really fast in Italian, and I said "Look, I don't understand, come inside and talk with--"
GCM:
And this first meeting with this girl, when was it? What day was it? What time? Afternoon? Evening?
AK:
So, I remember that I was listening to music on Raffaele's computer, so it was before we watched the movie that she rang. I went to the door, and she immediately started talking in Italian--
GCM:
This movie, what was it? The one that--
AK:
Always the same one, The Fabulous World of Amelie.
GCM:
And the date is?
AK:
Still November 1st.
GCM:
You hadn't started watching the movie yet, so we are still in the afternoon?
AK:
Yes, yes, it was the afternoon, but I don't remember the time. It's always the same problem.
LG:
Now, did this friend have an appointment with Raffaele Sollecito for that evening?
AK:
Raffaele explained to me that he was supposed to drive her to the station--
LG:
At what time?
AK:
Around midnight.
LG:
So, on that night, Raffaele Sollecito had an appointment with this Popovic--
AK:
Yes.
LG:
--Jovana, to accompany her to the station?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And then what happened?
FM?:
Excuse me. I again object. We have understood the desire of the defense to follow the chronology of everything we have heard over these last months. We take note of it. But we should still ask questions to the accused, listen to the answers, and then from the more general, go towards the more particular. For example, how was the appointment going to work? How were they going to go? On foot? By car?
GCM:
Yes. But if we could move forward--
LG:
If we all know the answers--
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please. Do you know what the object of the appointment was? What they were supposed to do?
AK:
I understand -- he explained to me --
GCM:
He? Raffaele?
AK:
Raffaele explained to me that he was supposed to take her in the car to the station around midnight--
GCM:
Which station? If you know?
AK:
I thought it was -- well, I always went to the one station, the one where I arrived from Rome, so...that one. But I don't exactly know--
GCM:
The train station?
AK:
Hm?
GCM:
Train station or bus station?
AK:
Trains, I think. Well, I understood station, so this is just what I understood. I didn't know about the suitcase.
LG:
The question is: what happened with this Popovic Jovana on that evening?
AK:
Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more.
LG:
Do you remember by any chance if she came to the house?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And what happened?
AK:
Raffaele talked with her.
GCM:
What time was this? You mentioned the movie earlier. You said that the first time she came by, you hadn't started watching the movie yet. Later, when she came back, had you already started watching the movie? Was it going on? Were you watching? With reference to all this, so as to reconstruct things a little, also in your memory--
AK:
Right.
GCM:
--what time we're talking about, what part of the day, of the evening.
AK:
Aaaaahhh....I don't remember very well.
GCM:
What were you actually doing?
AK:
I think we were having dinner, but I'm not sure.
GCM:
Dinner. So you had already finished watching the movie, according to the timetable you gave earlier in this examination: movie, dinner and then other things.
AK:
I think so.
GCM:
So, at dinner. Go ahead, avvocato.
LG:
Passing to another topic, but still in the evening of the 1st, there is a clarification about your cell phone. Did you turn off your cell phone on that evening?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And why?
AK:
Because I didn't want to be called back, to go to work. I didn't want to be disturbed.
LG:
This was the cell phone on which you received the message of Patrick that we heard about, and from which you answered. The same cell phone?
AK:
Yes, yes. I received the call --er--I received the text message, and I was so happy, I wanted to spend the whole night just with Raffaele, so I turned it off so as not to be called or called back.
LG:
Do you usually turn it off at night?
AK:
Not usually, because I use it as a clock, an alarm clock, so usually I don't, but on that night I did.
LG:
And did you have plans for the next day?
AK:
Yes, we wanted to go to Gubbio with Raffaele.
LG:
So there were no classes.
AK:
No, I think it was a holiday.
LG:
Now, getting back to the famous text message, we have already analysed the actual text contained in the dossier: "Ci vediamo dopo". Now, in your mind, exactly, the "See you later" that is the English translation of this, could you translate it by "Ciao"?
AK:
So, it wasn't even "Ci vediamo dopo", it was "Ci vediamo piu tardi" which literally is "See you later", which in English is a way of saying "Ciao". And then, I said "Buona serata."
LG:
Thank you. Now, for the 2nd, there's a whole series of declarations. I'll just try to make a few clarifications, so as not to repeat too much. The first one is the question of the door. You have explained how on the morning of the 2nd you went to take a shower in via della Pergola, and you found the door open. Precisely, did this door have a defect? What was the problem?
AK:
It was defective, and if you didn't close it with the key, the door opened by itself. You couldn't just shut it, the wind would open it.
LG:
As for the rest of the house, how was it? Were there any problems with the shutters? Was it a safe house? Were there any complaints about the condition of the house?
AK:
I felt fine. I remember that Laura sometimes complained that there were druggies around, but I felt quite safe.
LG:
I see. Do you remember when you called Filomena, more or less, on that morning?
AK:
I called Filomena when Raffaele advised me to call someone.
LG:
And what did Filomena say?
AK:
Filomena was worried. She asked me if I had called Meredith, and I said I had already called but she wasn't answering. I told her what I had seen, and she said "OK, when you've finished, go to the house and check everything that happened and call me back."
LG:
And the carabinieri? Did Filomena say anything about calling the carabinieri or the police?
AK:
I don't know how to call the carabinieri or the police, but she only told me to go see how things were.
LG:
Did you try to climb over the balcony?
AK:
Yes. When I saw that Meredith's door was locked, and that if she was in there, she wasn't answering, I really wanted to find out whether she was in there or not. I was confused about this, because why should her door be locked if she wasn't inside? So first I tried -- the way the house is situated, she had a window near that little balcony, so I first tried to climb over the balcony to see if I could see inside. But I couldn't, and [laughing] Raffaele was saying "No, get back here!" and pulling me back onto the balcony. So then he tried to knock the door down.
LG:
Yes, and I know that you had tried to open the door together, hadn't you?
AK:
Yes. Raffaele tried giving it a kick, and also pushing it with his shoulder to open it, because we didn't know why that door should be locked.
LG:
And you also tried calling out Meredith's name?
AK:
Of course, and I also tried looking in the keyhole.
LG:
And who arrived at the via della Pergola that morning? At a certain point, the postal police arrived.
AK:
Yes. Two plain clothes policemen came.
LG:
Did they arrive together?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Marzi and Battistelli?
AK:
I don't know their names.
LG:
And what did they ask? To go into the house? Did they ask for information?
AK:
No, I said "Look, come inside", because I was convinced that they were the ones that Raffaele had called. I found it strange that they arrived so quickly, but...
LG:
And they told you that they were there for the problem of the cell phones?
AK:
Yes, in fact, they told me that after I brought them into the house. They showed me the cell phones and said they were looking for a certain Filomena. And they asked me for the cell phone numbers that I had. I told them that there were strange, strange things, but our communication was always kind of fragmentary, with Raffaele as go-between.
LG:
Okay, now I'll jump a little bit because you already answered. When they opened the door and found the body, you remained for a while in the garden.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And then in the car, because it was cold.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Did you cry at that moment?
AK:
Me? Yes. I cried, but Raffaele kept hugging me. First he gave me his jacket. Then he consoled me. I was trembling, I didn't know what to think, I was in shock. So he was cuddling me and hugging me and telling me not to worry, and I cried inside this protection that he was offering me.
LG:
Who was the first person you called to tell them about this terrible news?
AK:
My mom.
LG:
Was there anyone else in Perugia that you could have called, who could have given you advice or comfort? Did you know anyone else in Perugia that you could have called?
AK:
No, I...
LG:
Was there anyone else in Italy that you could have called, to ask for advice?
AK:
No, I don't have any family.
LG:
Who was your nearest relative? Your aunt in Germany?
AK:
The nearest was in Germany.
LG:
Thank you. Now, how much time did you spend in the Questura that night?
AK:
So much, so much time. I think it was -- heck, it was so long. At least twelve hours.
LG:
Until the next morning? Or until midnight.
AK:
Yes, until the next morning. And then they asked me to come back later that morning. They told me to go home and sleep, and then to come back.
LG:
What did your mom and your aunt tell you when they called you on the phone? What advice did they give you?
GCM:
Her aunt contacted her?
AK:
Yes. My family called me.
GCM:
So your aunt contacted you as well as your mother. The lawyer is asking you what they told you.
AK:
They wanted me to be careful, but above all, they wanted me to go to them, to try to find myself. I was so disoriented, and I didn't know where to go, where to look. So they thought maybe I should go to be with them, but I didn't want to leave Perugia or Italy, because of collaborating with the police, and then, I just didn't want to leave this place.
LG:
How many times did you go to the Questura in the following days, the 3rd, the 4th, the 5th?
AK:
I went back every day.
LG:
And more or less for how many hours, for how much time?
AK:
It depended, but it was always for several hours.
LG:
But did you also go to class on those days? You tried to continue your normal life?
AK:
Yes. Finally on the 5th, I had time to go to class. And then Raffaele was called.
LG:
Did you also talk to Filomena in those days?
AK:
Yes, I talked to Filomena and Laura, always talking about what happened, but also that we wanted to find a place where we could be together.
LG:
At this point I would like to ask the Court to listen to a telephone call between Knox and Filomena Romanelli from the 5th. There's an audio. Precisely giving some confirmation on this point. So if you authorize me, it lasts about three minutes.
GCM:
Please do. It's the one for which a transcription was requested?
LG:
Exactly.
GCM:
Please do. Is the telephone call in Italian? [Background noise] Go ahead.
LG:
So, this is the telephone call that was intercepted on Nov 5th 2007, starting at 22:29, and the first question that I will ask Amanda is: where were you? Maybe it's better if -- do you remember where you were at 22:29?
AK:
Twenty-two...wait...
LG:
Ten twenty-nine, ten thirty.
AK:
Which day?
LG:
The 5th.
AK:
On the 5th...umm...ten thirty...that would be around class time, so...
LG:
No, in the evening.
AK:
Oh, in the evening, oh, the evening! I was still at the house of these neighbors.
[Telephone call audio: loud ringing or beeping]
FR:
Hello?
AK:
Ciao bella.
FR:
: Ciao bella, how are you? [very sweet, friendly voice]
AK:
[Italian noticeably less good than now, slow, yet really not so bad, not absolutely a beginner] Oh, fine. I had a good day, without police.
FR:
Aah...
AK:
But Raffaele received a "call" [in English]--
FR:
From whom?
AK:
From the police. So we umm just got here, to the Questura, for questioning. But I have to wait outside. And...umm...umm...when he...
[LG cuts off the audio]
LG:
I'm stopping it. Amanda, who were you talking to in this phone call?
AK:
With Filomena.
LG:
And where were you?
AK:
At the Questura. I was near the elevator. Waiting for Raffaele.
LG:
And the call came on the cell phone? [Strange question, it was Amanda calling]
AK:
Yes.
[LG restarts the audio]
FR:
Finishes?
AK:
That's right.
FR:
So you're there again today.
AK:
Yes.
FR:
Madonna!
AK:
I know. And I thought I wouldn't have to go [inaudible squeak but I'm guessing she said "there today"]. And what did you do today?
FR:
Me, today, I went to my office to get some information about our contract.
AK:
Yes? And how is it?
FR:
It's good, it's good. And then I called the agency.
AK:
Mmm. And?
FR:
And I have an appointment for tomorrow morning.
AK:
Tomorrow morning?
FR:
At 9:30. Yes. I'm going. Do you want to come?
AK:
Um, I have to meet my mom at the station.
FR:
Fine, fine.
[LG interrupts the audio]
LG:
I'm stopping it for a moment to ask this question. How is it that you were worried about the rental contract of the house? What was your worry on November 5th?
AK:
We had to clarify with the agency about the house, because when we paid the rent, we were paying either the agency or the landlady, and what we wanted to do is, we wanted to get out of this contract at the agency, to find another house together.
LG:
And who was taking care of these questions?
AK:
It was mainly Filomena.
LG:
I see.
[Restores telephone audio]
FR:
Then let's -- [at this point she switches to English. Cute accent -- but her English isn't really any better than Amanda's Italian! Literal transcription.] We can do in this way, if you want. After that I get in the agency office to talk about what we have to do...
AK:
Yes?
FR:
...after I have to go to office to talk with my lawyer...
[A voice intervenes, perhaps the interpreter? LG stops the audio] Afterwards she had to go to her office to see her lawyer. [Background murmuring. Audio rewinds a bit and starts again, this time translated orally bit by bit by the interpreter]
FR:
...about the problem of the home because he says that we have a problem.
AK:
Yes?
FR:
And if...if the agency says there are some problems with the rest of the... rest of the...in legal ways [I think this is what she just tried to say but it's hard to understand. The interpreter simply says "One can't understand Romanelli's English very well" (!) At this point Filomena switches back to Italian.] We're okay because it's all in our favor.
AK:
Good.
FR:
Then I'll go to work but if you want, we can see each other after and you can tell me how it went.
AK:
Yes, and you can meet my mom.
FR:
Great!
AK:
Good.
FR:
Great! Then if she needs anything, we can see about it, okay?
AK:
Yes, sure. Call me, okay?
FR:
Okay, fine. Say hi to Raffaele.
AK:
Okay.
FR:
Take it easy, Amanda. Bye.
AK:
Sure, of course. Oh, right now somebody wants to talk to me. Ciao bella.
FR:
Ciao, ciao.
[End telephone audio]
GCM:
Go ahead, avvocato. Your question?
LG:
The question is this. Your main worry right then was the question of the house, firstly because Amanda didn't have a house right then, and then because your were worried about the rental contract, as we understand from this phone call.
AK:
Yes.
LG:
So you were looking for another house?
AK:
Yes, we wanted to stay together.
LG:
Who, "we"?
AK:
Me, Laura and Filomena.
LG:
So you wanted to reproduce the house in via della Pergola.
AK:
And then find another together.
LG:
This was your project?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And during that time, you were staying at Raffaele's house?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
Did anyone else help you with the problem of housing in those days?
AK:
Some people offered to help me, for example, with contacting my university, who sometimes offered places at hotels, like when my mother was arriving. But while I was waiting for my mother, I wanted to be with Raffaele, because I was with him and I didn't want to be alone. Then when my mother would have arrived, I wanted to be with her.
LG:
I see. So your short-term projects were to find a new house and to be with your mother who was arriving on the 6th.
AK:
Yes, until I would have a new house with Filomena and Laura.
LG:
I see. We heard about the night of the 5th and 6th, and I wanted to know if you went, and how many times you went to via della Pergola.
AK:
So, after Nov 1st, I returned twice, I think. Once to look at the apartment of the boys downstairs, where they had found blood in a room on a cover and they asked me if it was normal and I said no, then they asked me about Meredith's sex life--
LG:
Meredith's sex life? What about it in particular?
AK:
If she used vaseline, and if she did anal sex.
LG:
What did you answer?
AK:
That I didn't know those details of her life.
LG:
They also told you something else, about the access to the apartment downstairs?
AK:
I think they asked me if I knew about the keys of the apartment downstairs, and I said no.
LG:
Now about knives, at that time did they ask you about knives?
AK:
So, on the 4th is when they asked me about knives, they asked me to look in our kitchen, in the upstairs apartment, to see if there was anything missing. But honestly, there were so many...firstly, there were so many knives in that house, and then I just took a look and I just said "I don't think so", and then I was kind of taken by this impression that I had of the house, and I just started crying.
LG:
Why?
AK:
Because, because of so many things. Just being near the house made a kind of terrible impression on me. Then I was keeping so much stress inside, so much...and it was as if I suddenly realized the brutal reality of the situation, so I sort of collapsed in my emotions.
LG:
Then, on the morning of the 5th, you went to class?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And you did some work for the teacher?
AK:
Yes. I did this work but it was also to express myself because I just couldn't get the whole story out of my mind. Because after I returned to my own house, I still felt that I had too much--that the situation was too much, too heavy. I was scared to go around alone even during the day, and going there, even at that moment, I kind of let off steam, because we were supposed to write a letter, and the thing I most wanted to do right then was to write a letter to my mom. So I did it, because in the end I couldn't even think about anything else.
GCM:
This was the famous e-mail sent to 25 people?
AK:
No no no.
AK:
No no no. This was something I wrote for school.
GCM:
Oh, for your university.
AK:
That thing that I wrote in the e-mail was earlier.
GCM:
I see.
LG:
That morning, did you have any contacts with journalists?
AK:
No.
LG:
And your cell phone was on that morning?
AK:
Yes, I turned it on in case the police wanted to call me.
LG:
In case the police contacted you?
AK:
Yes. They had told me to keep my phone on all the time, so that I could answer them when they wanted me to return to the Questura.
LG:
I see. So, in all these days, following the discovery of the body, did you ever think about turning to the American Embassy, or to a lawyer?
AK:
No.
LG:
Because they were calling you every day to the Questura.
AK:
No, no. More than anything, I thought they wanted to talk to me so much because I was the closest person to Meredith in the house. And then, I was the person who went back to the house and found the mess. I never thought I needed a lawyer or to talk to the Ambassador, because I thought, okay, I'll just answer a couple of questions, and then I can get on with my life, I don't know. And I still had to orient myself in the world around me; I never even thought of contacting someone like a lawyer.
LG:
And the fact that you were being called every day to the Questura, didn't that worry you and your family?
AK:
[Sigh] For me, I didn't understand why, but I really never, never thought that they suspected me. Never.
LG:
When they arrested you, did they tell you why? When they put the handcuffs on your wrists, on the morning of the 6th?
AK:
If they told me, I didn't understand it. Because in the end, when I found myself--
LG:
And what did you think, when they put the handcuffs on you?
AK:
I was surprised. I thought-- They told me "Come on, it's just for a couple of days, because we're protecting you," so I said "All right, fine, but actually, you're not even listening to me." And then in those following days, when I was like a-- when I was alone in the cell, in those days, I was suddenly brought in front of the judge, with two lawyers, and they said "Ah, you are accused of murdering Meredith," and I just stood there with my mouth open with everybody staring at me like "Hmmm".
LG:
On the morning of the 6th, you didn't understand why they were arresting you.
AK:
No. No. I -- they -- I thought that, as I had understood from them, that it was a formality that they had to do because there was some testimony that I had been near the scene of the crime or something like that.
LG:
But in the days that you spent in prison before that, before you met the undersigned lawyer Ghirga, what were you thinking during those days? What did you think was happening?
AK:
In those days, I only wanted to clarify the things that I hadn't understood before, those images that I had imagined, that contradicted the reality that I remembered. This was my main preoccupation. For me, those days were a big moment of crying and confusion, and fear, and cold. Really, it was freezing.
LG:
When did you know about the arrest of Rudy Guede?
AK:
I saw it on television.
LG:
And what did you think?
AK:
Ummm...I thought they were going to let me leave.
LG:
Did you know Guede?
AK:
I had met Rudy, but I didn't really know him, because actually, I couldn't even remember his name.
LG:
And when did you know that Patrick had been freed?
AK:
I saw it on television. And I was really happy.
LG:
You were really happy for him?
AK:
Yes.
LG:
And your thoughts, did you write them down?
AK:
Yes, I wrote them, I told my mom, I was really relieved. But I was still in prison myself.
LG:
Did you meet a priest in those days, in prison?
AK:
Yes. I still often see him to talk about all kinds of things, even philosophy. He is a real friend to me. Yes.
LG:
And what exactly do you talk about?
AK:
We talk about my family, my thoughts, my studies. He gives me books to study from, and when we're together, there's a group that gets together to sing, to dance, to discuss theology. With him, I talk.
LG:
This might be a good time to take a break because I think there is a little tiredness on the part of the accused, but also in general.
GCM:
All right, let's suspend proceedings for ten minutes.
AK:
Fine.
LG:
Very good. Thank you.
GCM:
What? Go ahead.
LG:
I don't want to make this very long, but there are still some circumstances--
GCM:
No, no. Take the time that you need.
LG:
But I would like it to be clear, with the agreement of the other parties, that it might be necessary to suspend for today and continue tomorrow, seeing that... But I will leave the decision to you.
GCM:
No, tomorrow has been programmed to "exhaust" [cross-examine].
??:
Let's finish today.
LG:
I think it depends on the accused. Maybe she needs to stop now.
GCM:
Let's continue a bit. If we don't succeed in covering everything--
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
If we don't manage to complete the current proceedings today, we can continue it tomorrow morning, until we conclude it under the best possible conditions. For now, we will suspend proceedings for ten minutes.
AK:
Thank you.
GCM:
The time is 17:16. The audience is recommencing with the examination of the accused led by the defense.
[Silence, sound of recording machine]
GCM:
Has it turned off?
Voice: Trying, trying. Good, thank you. }}
CDV:
Avvocato dalla Vedova. I wanted to start the examination again by talking about the interrogation of December 17, 2007.
AK:
Okay.
CDV:
In front of the pubblico ministero. You remember that the interrogation took place in prison.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
And what language were you speaking on that occasion
AK:
I spoke English with the help of an interpreter who explained to me what the pubblico ministero was saying.
CDV:
Was the interpreter by any chance a certain Giulia Clemish, Austrian citizen?
AK:
I suppose she was, but I don't remember her name.
CDV:
Were you satisfied with the translation from Italian into English and back, during the interrogation?
GCM:
Excuse me, first can you explain if you were able to evaluate the translation? Were you able to tell whether the translation was exact or not? Whether it corresponded?
AK:
No. I was quite frustrated with her, because she would take something I said in a hundred words and say it in two, and then she used words that weren't right, and then she forgot to tell me things that the pubblico ministero had said. There was a lot of confusion.
CDV:
How long did that interrogation last? Do you remember?
AK:
At least six or seven hours.
CDV:
Do you remember that the recording of the interrogation was then translated by another person?
AK:
I know it was translated, but I didn't know it was translated by another person or the same one. I don't know.
CDV:
And do you remember that it was necessary to translate also the translator, the interpreter, this Giulia Clemish?
AK:
[Laughing] Oh yes, true. Right.
CDV:
So the interrogation that we have in the dossier is a translation of the interrogation, and also of the translation made by that interpreter.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Who was German-speaking.
AK:
Yes. It was a big mess.
CDV:
Now, can you tell me about your nickname, Foxy Knoxy?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
What is that?
AK:
So, I've played soccer since I was very small.
CDV:
Since when? How old were you?
AK:
Since I was five.
CDV:
Five years old?
AK:
Yes. So this nickname came out of the fact that I was the defender, and also because it rhymed with my name, "fox", "Knox", so they made "Foxy Knoxy", also because when they put me out on the field, they put me lower down and I kind of...I was a good defender, quite aggressive.
CDV:
This nickname, Foxy Knoxy, how would you translate it into Italian?
AK:
Into Italian? Mainly it's not that it actually means anything.
CDV:
But what is "foxy"? It's relative to an animal, isn't it?
AK:
Yes, a fox.
CDV:
A fox. And Knoxy is just a play on your last name?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
So when -- do you agree with the translation made by Alessandro Clericuzzio, the interpreter responsible for retranslating the whole interrogation, when on page 2, he translates the question of the pubblico ministero "Do you have a nickname?" and you answer "In my soccer team they called me Foxy Knoxy," and then in brackets the interpreter Alessandro Clericuzzio writes "mean fox" [volpe cattiva]? Does this translation correspond to the way you interpret the meaning of "Foxy Knoxy"?
AK:
No. That corresponds to the personage that was constructed to explain the motivation behind this accusation.
CDV:
Which is?
AK:
Which is that I am a crazy lying murderess--there are so many other words I could use but they'd be swear words, really.
GCM:
Excuse me, but the word "foxy"...
AK:
I'm talking about the word "cattiva".
GCM:
But how would you translate "foxy"?
AK:
Me? It's just like "Volpe Knox", "Fox Knox".
GCM:
Just your name, really.
AK:
Yes. It doesn't mean anything. It's just because it rhymes, and then the fact of being like a fox playing soccer.
[Interpreter] Volpina. It could be volpina. }}
CDV:
So the reference to a fox is because you were very cunning when you played soccer?
AK:
Maybe, if you really want to give it a meaning, but mainly it's because I was a little girl and we just had nicknames at soccer.
CDV:
So according to you, this translation "volpe cattiva" is correct or a mistake, an error?
AK:
It's a mistake. It's an exaggeration.
CDV:
Getting back to the interrogation, with the pubblico ministero. Do you remember that at a certain point it was interrupted?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Do you remember what happened?
AK:
Yes. Um, after several hours, um, the pubblico ministero started repeating the same questions, and it was as though I had gone right back to the Questura at that moment. So I didn't feel at ease, it was like they weren't listening to me any more, or hearing me, and so on the advice of the lawyer, I stopped the examination.
CDV:
Did you get exactly the same feeling that you had on the night of the 5th/6th?
AK:
I was getting that feeling of frustration, yes.
CDV:
I see. Now, some more general questions.
[A murmured interruption from the background]
GCM:
Excuse me. Later, when it is the turn of the pubblico ministero to interrogate, perhaps we can clarify this passage. Perhaps now the avvocato can continue.
CDV:
Certainly. Now, relations with Raffaele.
AK:
Hm.
CDV:
You met Raffaele and there was an immediate attraction.
AK:
Yes. I really really liked him.
CDV:
Right. Did you also meet Raffaele's family?
AK:
I hadn't yet. But I was supposed to meet them at this "graduation" [English] ceremony that he wanted to do, and he was going to bring me and introduce me to his family. Yes.
CDV:
His what?
AK:
His family. He was going to introduce me.
CDV:
Oh, his family. But had he ever talked to you about his family?
AK:
Yes. Yes, yes.
CDV:
What did he tell you about his family?
AK:
Well, about his close relationship with his mother, and then about how things worked in their family, how they felt about each other, what his sister was like, and his father.
CDV:
And you told him about your family?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
When were you supposed to meet Raffaele's parents? When was the graduation ceremony going to be? Was there already a date?
AK:
It was supposed to be in December.
CDV:
In December.
AK:
I think.
CDV:
And you were going to introduce your mother to Raffaele when she arrived in Perugia?
AK:
Yes, he was even telling me that he wanted to take her to a special place he knew in Perugia, to make her feel at ease.
CDV:
And why did you want to introduce your mother to Raffaele? Did it seem like your relationship was particularly important? He was someone you wanted to introduce?
AK:
Yes. I right away felt very intimate with Raffaele. I confided in him about everything. I really felt -- boom! Like that. He was very special.
CDV:
You're not saying that because he's right here in front of you? You mean it for real?
AK:
{{{2}}}
CDV:
Okay now, a practical question. Immediately after the finding of the body, were you allowed to take any personal effects out of the house?
AK:
I took my bag, which was on the sofa. But apart from that I couldn't take anything.
CDV:
No intimate garments, for example?
AK:
[Laughing] No, just what I was wearing, nothing else. In my bag there were just my schoolbooks.
CDV:
And in the dossier there's a statement that you made about the purchase of intimate garments in those days.
AK:
Naturally, yes.
CDV:
There's also a statement in the dossier that you borrowed men's underwear from Raffaele.
AK:
Right. I was practically wearing Raffaele's clothes in those days.
CDV:
There wasn't anyone else in Perugia that you could ask for help? You didn't know anyone else?
AK:
Obviously I knew Laura and Filomena, but they were always...well, I was always with Raffaele, and the other people, I didn't know them well enough. I had only been in Perugia for one month, so the people I knew were my roommates, Raffaele, the boys downstairs, and then some girls...some people that I saw around, but they weren't people I confided in, people I saw either in school or in nightclubs. So I didn't feel like I could ask a girl I hardly knew for a pair of underwear, so...and also because, bleargh [sharing underwear with a girl she hardly knew, presumably.]
CDV:
Still on this argument, in the following days, did you have some money available, or did Raffaele lend you some, or anybody else?
AK:
No, I still had my own money.
CDV:
How did you get your money?
AK:
I had the money, and then there was the bank machine. I went to the bank machine and took the money from there. And my parents were helping me.
CDV:
Did you ever ask anyone in Perugia to lend you money?
AK:
No.
CDV:
All right, now, going in order through the accusations against you, I wanted to analyze the second one. Leveled by the office of the pubblico ministero because of the law against carrying arms, with respect to the transportation of the famous knife. So I wanted to ask you if it was normal for you to go around with a knife?
AK:
No.
CDV:
You never had a knife with you?
AK:
No.
CDV:
In your pocket or in your purse?
AK:
No.
CDV:
Since you were in Perugia, you never had any occasion to buy a knife in a store and carry it home?
AK:
The thing I did, which they discovered in my room, is that in Germany I had bought some kitchenware, since I didn't know if there were any in the house or not. And there was a knife in there, but it was always inside an enormous suitcase, which in the end I put under my bed. That was the only time I ever carried a knife around, but it was inside a suitcase.
CDV:
This was the famous suitcase that was later the object of a robbery in the house, as seen from the newspapers.
AK:
Indeed.
CDV:
And this suitcase, do you know where it is today?
AK:
No.
CDV:
That was the only knife that you had?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Then there were the knives that you found in the house.
AK:
Certainly.
CDV:
And the ones in the apartment downstairs.
AK:
In the apartment downstairs--
CDV:
Of the boys.
AK:
--they weren't my knives.
CDV:
And in Raffaele's house, there was a full set of silverware, and there were also knives.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
You used these knives?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
For what?
AK:
To cook, to eat. We often cooked together because he's also a really good cook.
CDV:
You helped him?
AK:
Yes, I was like the assistant chef.
CDV:
Assistant chef. The famous knife number 36 that we have seen various times as the object of analysis in various circumstances, did you ever use it?
AK:
Yes. To cook.
CDV:
You never carried it around with you in Perugia?
AK:
No, absolutely not.
GCM:
Excuse me, when you say to cook, where were you cooking?
AK:
In Raffaele's kitchen.
CDV:
Is it possible that someone put that knife into your bag, and that you carried it around Perugia without knowing it, unconsciously?
AK:
No.
CDV:
Could that have happened with Raffaele, that he carried it around Perugia?
AK:
No.
CDV:
Now, in relation to another aspect, the theft. Do you know if Meredith had money, cash, available around the house?
AK:
Um, I suppose she took money like I did, but well, no, because I don't know where she put her money.
CDV:
You never talked with Meredith about money?
AK:
No.
CDV:
Do you know if she had a credit card?
AK:
Yes, because she went to the bank machine.
CDV:
Did you know if she kept cash in the house?
AK:
No.
CDV:
Or in her purse?
AK:
Wait. One time she told this thing to Filomena, that she could already give her the money and Filomena said no, let's wait a little, but I didn't know if she carried it around in her wallet or left it at home.
CDV:
But you never saw a sum of 300 euros in Meredith's hand or in her purse?
AK:
No.
CDV:
And in relation to the cell phones, do you know how many cell phones Meredith had?
AK:
Two, one for England and one for Italy.
CDV:
And you could call her on both those phones? You had the numbers?
AK:
I had both numbers, yes. If I couldn't reach her on one of them, I would try on the other.
CDV:
I see. I wanted to know, in relation to the boys in the apartment downstairs--
AK:
Okay?
CDV:
Did you have friendly relations with them, or were there any conflicts?
AK:
No, friendly and calm.
CDV:
And you used to go downstairs, and they would come upstairs, or not?
AK:
No, it did. They would come upstairs in the evening to chat, and sometimes we went down to chat with them. I only went with the other girls, mainly because I didn't understand what they were saying too well.
CDV:
Because they didn't speak English?
AK:
They didn't speak English. Giacomo maybe a tiny bit, but...
CDV:
With Meredith?
AK:
With Meredith, and a little bit with me, but he was also kind of an introverted guy, he didn't even talk that much. The others talked a lot and were very witty, but I couldn't really get into the conversation, I listened more than anything.
CDV:
Listen, one last circumstance, which in reality goes back to a subject we've we've already considered: your increasing worry on the morning of the 2nd when you saw -- I'm summarizing -- the open door, the bloodstains, the bathmat, and you went back to Raffaele's place, and you returned to the via della Pergola, and at a certain point, you noticed the broken window.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
What did you -- what was your evaluation of this broken window?
AK:
I was perplexed, because... First I thought "Oh, a robbery", but then I didn't understand, because nothing had been taken from the house, at least--there was a mess in the room, but the computer was there, all the things, the things of value, and Laura's room was perfectly clean, and mine was as if no one had touched anything, so for me I didn't understand these things. In fact, I remember having talked with Laura and Filomena and Raffaele, at the house of a friend of Laura's, in the days after, when we were trying to figure out how everything could have happened.
CDV:
Yes?
AK:
Because for us, none of it made sense. If there wasn't a robbery, how the heck could this have happened, what was the point of breaking that window? Why hadn't they wanted to take anything? We just didn't get it, so we were trying to make hypotheses, also talking about the things we had understood from the newspapers and the police, putting everything together, talking like that.
GCM:
Yes, but that was later. The lawyer was asking you about the evaluation, the comments you made at the moment of seeing the broken window. Before that, when you first realized the window was broken, were you alone or were you together?
AK:
I was with Raffaele at that moment, because it was the second time that I went back to the house. The first time I went back to the house, Filomena's door was closed, so I didn't look inside, I didn't think to. The first time I went into the house, I called "Is anybody home?" and there wasn't anybody, so I just went about my own affairs. Then, going back to the house, with Raffaele, I looked around a bit to see how things really were, and I discovered the broken window. That's when I thought "Mamma mia, a robbery," and I called Filomena to tell her, "Look, your window's broken and there's a mess in your room. But -- nothing's been touched."
GCM:
So when you realized that the window was broken, you were together with Raffaele Sollecito.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Correct?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
At what time, if you remember -- how many times had you already called Filomena Romanelli when -- had you already called her?
AK:
Yes, I had already called her, yes.
GCM:
In the first phone call, you still hadn't seen the broken window. Is that right?
AK:
Exactly. Yes.
GCM:
And Romanelli, then you called her back.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
And when you called her back, had you seen the broken window?
AK:
I don't think so yet, because later, I had to -- when I got to the house, if I remember rightly, I was the one who called her, saying that there was this broken window and that she should come home. But it seems to me that she called me before I got home, when I was actually on my way.
GCM:
So, what are you saying? Romanelli called you when you were leaving the via della Pergola?
AK:
So--
GCM:
When did you call her back, Romanelli? Where were you?
AK:
Okay. I was, when I called Filomena the first time, I was in Raffaele's apartment. Then I think Filomena called me back when I was on my way back to the house with Raffaele.
GCM:
Excuse me. When you called Romanelli Filomena, the first time, you, Amanda, where were you? In Raffaele's apartment? Raffaele Sollecito? So the first time you called Filomena, you were in the apartment of Raffaele Sollecito. Is that correct?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
And when Romanelli called you back, where were you?
AK:
I was just leaving Raffaele's apartment, but still at his place, so I still didn't know about the broken window. Then I had to call her again.
GCM:
And then I wanted to ask for one more clarification about these things that you have told us, if you can give it to us. When you entered into the house on via della Pergola for the first time on the morning of Nov 2nd, you called "Is anybody home?" as a question. Right?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Who should have been there in the house?
AK:
I thought maybe Meredith, maybe Filomena.
GCM:
So you didn't know -- because on this, we have some testimony according to which Laura said, if I remember properly, that they were not there. That Laura and Filomena weren't supposed to be home at all in that time period.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
Did you know that, that they weren't going to be in the house?
AK:
I knew that Filomena had gone to a party, but I didn't know whether she had got back or not. And as for Laura, I didn't remember if she had gone to Rome or not. I knew that she had said she meant to leave for a couple of days, or one day, I don't remember, I don't even know if I had really understood. But when I saw that the door was open, I called out "Is anybody home?" because I thought that maybe somebody had opened the door and not closed it. But when nobody answered--
GCM:
This person, who could it have been? According to what you knew?
AK:
Either Meredith or Filomena according to what I knew.
CDV:
On that point, did you know whether the downstairs apartment was occupied during those days?
AK:
So, I -- no. Because I knew that the boys were talking about doing something for Halloween, but I didn't know if they meant to go around Perugia or what. I didn't understand that from them. I just didn't know if they were home that night or not. I knew that at some point before Halloween, they were talking about doing something together for Halloween. But I didn't know when they meant to come back home.
CDV:
But when you thought, after seeing that Meredith's door was closed, that she was home, did you go downstairs to check if she was there?
AK:
When I saw that the door was closed, I went downstairs, well, mainly I went downstairs when I saw that the window was broken, so I went down to see if the boys downstairs had heard anything. But they weren't there. So I went back up, and Meredith's door which was closed, well I had already seen that it was closed, so...
CDV:
I see.
GCM:
So if I could just clear this up to conclude: did you go downstairs with Raffaele or alone?
AK:
No, Raffaele stayed upstairs in the apartment, I was really running around because I was very agitated by all this, so I ran downstairs, knocked, no one was there, and I ran back upstairs to Raffaele who was still looking around to see if there was anything strange.
CDV:
So just to conclude this, and to conclude in general, when the two policemen arrived, you informed them of the whole strange situation, the broken window?
AK:
Yes. But I thought they were the ones that we had called. I thought they had arrived incredibly fast.
CDV:
And the locked door, you asked them to break it down, to open it?
AK:
I explained to them that I had tried to open it by force, but before we actually decided to break it down, Filomena arrived, and she took the initiative of talking to the police about it all.
CDV:
I see. Good. For now, I don't have any other questions. Thank you, Presidente.
GCM:
I don't know if the pubblico ministero -- or --
MC:
We can't start now. We could start tomorrow.
GCM:
At any moment, you can say "Enough". That is always possible for you. But if you say you are available to answer, in the published program of the proceedings, there remains the possibility for the pubblico ministero to ask questions, so we still have the pubblico ministero, then the defense of the civil plaintiffs who did not yet ask questions, Meredith Kercher's relatives and also the lawyer--
GB:
And Sollecito's defense!
GCM:
-- and Sollecito's defense, after which the defense of Lumumba and then your defense. That is the program. Let us respect it. But if you are tired, if you prefer to put the cross-examination by the pubblico ministero off until tomorrow, we can put it off till then, when you will be more rested.
AK:
If it isn't a problem, I am rather tired.
GCM:
Absolutely. We have programmed two entire days exactly to be able to conduct this examination in the best possible conditions.
AK:
Thank you.
GCM:
So from the evidence, the continuation of the examination of the accused will be at the audience already fixed for June 13, at 9 o'clock. We invite all parties to be present, without further communication between them, including the interpreter.
AK:
Thank you.
GCM:
The audience is suspended.
Amanda Knox Trial Testimony -- Saturday, June 13 2009
9:30 Saturday morning, June 13, 2009
[Discussion between lawyers, in particular advice to avoid repeating questions already posed. Background noise and admonitions of "shhh". Giulia Bongiorno speaks up on the subject of the presence of television cameras, photographers etc. in the court. Lengthy 10-minute discussion on this point with each party speaking in turn.]
GCM:
If the public could politely cease the noise and comments...yes...we could begin the audience. [He recalls: trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, all the names of lawyers involved, defense and prosecution, civil plaintiffs]. Please state your identity again.
AK:
Amanda Knox, born July 9, 1987, in Seattle, Washington, USA.
GCM:
Please go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
All right, Miss Knox, can you tell us about when you first met Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
It was at a concert at the Universita per Stranieri, I think it was on Oct 25.
GM:
October 25?
AK:
So I've understood [odd remark: meaning "so I've been told?"]
GM:
So it was just about a week before the facts, more or less. Now, on the afternoon and evening of Oct 31, can you tell us what you did?
AK:
In the evening?
GM:
Afternoon and evening.
AK:
So, in the afternoon, I remember that I met a friend for coffee, my friend Spiros. We had coffee in the center, and then in the street when I was going back to meet Raffaele, I was still with him and I met someone I had gotten to know at "Le Chic", who said "We'll see each other later at Le Chic"...
GM:
You said "We'll see each other later?"
AK:
Yes, yes.
GM:
To whom? To Raffaele's friend?
AK:
No, no. It was my friend, that I had gotten to know in a bar, a cafe that also had internet service, and then, okay. What happened next? [Long pause with sound 'ummmmm', 'hmmm'.] Did I go home? I can't remember.
GM:
You can't remember.
AK:
And then, for Halloween, I know I went to Le Chic first, and then after I was there for a little while, I again met Spiros, outside the Merlin, and we went to a place with a bunch of his friends, I can't remember what place it was now, a kind of Irish pub, and then he...I said I was tired and wanted to meet Raffaele in the center, and so he accompanied me on foot to near the church, where I met Raffaele, who took me to his apartment.
[Start of 7:52 minute video segment]
GM:
Now. Have you ever made use of drugs? In particular on the afternoon or the evening of Nov 1?
AK:
I did smoke a joint with Raffaele in the evening, yes.
GM:
So you do confirm this detail.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So now we get to Patrick's message.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
So, Patrick's message came, I believe you said, at 8:15.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
More or less. What did it say exactly?
AK:
I don't remember the exact words...
GM:
[Interrupts] Was it in Italian? Was it in Italian?
AK:
Yes, it was in Italian. It had to do with the fact that there wasn't anyone at Le Chic so I didn't need to go to work.
GM:
And you saw this message at around what time?
AK:
Uh, I don't remember the time.
GM:
But was it after a little while or right away?
AK:
I was on Raffaele's bed and then I noticed that there was this symbol on my phone.
GM:
But you don't remember when?
AK:
No. I don't look at the clock.
GM:
And you answered Patrick -- how did you answer?
AK:
Well, I wrote something like "Okay, see you later ["ci vediamo piu -- um -- tardi"], buona serata.
GM:
You answered in which language?
AK:
In Italian. He didn't speak English.
GM:
"Ci vediamo piu tardi", you said.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
OK --
AK:
Which in English means "See you" --
GM:
Yes but, excuse me, but you answered in Italian.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
"Ci vediamo piu tardi."
AK:
He doesn't speak English.
GM:
Very well. It follows that your cell phone [gives number] and Sollecito's [gives number] stopped their activity respectively, yours at 8:35 and his at 8:42. Why?
AK:
I turned mine off, because I didn't want to get another message from Patrick, because actually I didn't really want to go to work. For example, he had told me that I didn't have to work, but if then a bunch of people showed up, well honestly, he had told me I didn't have to go to work and I wanted to stay with Raffaele.
GM:
Yesterday if I'm not mistaken, you said that you did it to stay with Raffaele.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
On page 40 (I don't know if it corresponds) of the minutes of your interrogation of December 17, you said, I'll read it, that: "I turned off my phone to save my battery." Do you remember that?
AK:
Well, if it's written there, it must be okay.
GM:
Today you're saying one thing, in the interrogation you said another. [Voice intervenes: can you be more precise about the page?] Page 40: I'll read it. "But why did you turn off your phone?" Interrogation of Dec 17. "To save my battery." "Do you usually keep it on at night?" [He stops, annoyed at some murmuring.]
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me.
CP?:
We're not interrupting, we're finding the page.
GCM:
Please, please [because of noise]. 39, 40, but anyway, these were the words. 39 or 40 is the page. Please, go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
Knox's answer: "To save my battery." "Do you usually keep it on at night?" "If I have something to do the next morning." "But the next morning was the day on which everyone skipped school." "But we were supposed to go to Gubbio the next day with Raffaele." The next day was the 2nd?
AK:
Mhm.
GM:
You wanted to go to Gubbio on the 2nd or the 3rd?
AK:
No, on the 2nd we wanted to go to Gubbio.
GM:
So, you turned off your telephone so Patrick wouldn't be able to call you in to work, or you turned it off to save your battery, not to use up your battery. Now, you remember what, what battery you had? what kind of autonomy it had?
AK:
What kind of battery?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I don't know what type of battery it was, but...
GM:
The autonomy of the battery? Do you remember?
AK:
I think it was about one or two days. It wasn't very long, but in the end, well, for example, the next morning, I was going to go to Gubbio, but I didn't have time to charge up the battery, so I thought, I don't want to get any phone calls this evening, and if I want to have my phone with me in Gubbio, I wanted it to be reasonably charged up. That's why I turned it off.
GM:
I see. Now you're saying this was the motive.
GCM:
I heard an objection. [Annoyed voices.] Please, please. Go ahead. [Voices arguing, dalla Vedova (I think it's him) is standing up.]
GCM:
This is an analysis. Indeed, yesterday Amanda Knox stated that turning off the cell phone was to guarantee her a free evening without being... [interruption] Excuse me. But at the interrogation of Dec 17 she said that it was both to save battery and also for this reason [interruptions, arguing]. So, I thought I understood that she had two reasons. We're not arguing about that.
??:
Also not to be called by Patrick.
GCM:
Yes, yes. Both reasons.
CDV:
The objection isn't about that. It's about...
GCM:
Excuse me, please. This is an analysis. let's return to the cross-examination by the pubblico ministero. The defense lawyers will have the final words. Everyone will hear what they have to say then.
CDV:
My objection was because the introductory request--
GCM:
Please, please.
??:
Enough now ["adesso basta"].
CDV:
My objection concerned the way the pubblico ministero presented his question, appearing to contest the fact that in the Dec 17 interrogation, Amanda also explained that she turned off her phone because she didn't want to be called by Patrick, because she didn't want to be disturbed. This doesn't correspond to the truth, because on page 40 of the minutes, she actually says "So, I turned it off also to not run the risk that Patrick would change his mind and call me in."
GCM:
Excuse me, fine. We heard. The pubblico ministero gave--
CDV:
It wasn't an objection.
GCM:
All right, but this is an analysis. The pubblico ministero gave everything concerning the reason, two reasons, why the cell phone was turned off. Later there will be analyses to determine if there is a contradiction, or a fifty per cent contradiction, or no contradiction. Now let's leave this question.
GM:
I would like not to be interrupted.
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero. Go ahead.
[End of video segment]
GM:
Why? erm-ahem -- why did you -- we will return to this point several times.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45? Why didn't you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.
AK:
Before when?
GM:
In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there's Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn't you ever mentioned him before?
AK:
Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick's name to me.
GM:
All right, now is the time for you to make this precise and specific. At this point I will take...no, I'll come back to it later. You need to explain this. You have stated: "The name of Patrick was suggested to me. I was hit, pressured."
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now you have to tell me in a completely detailed way, you have to remember for real, you have to explain step by step, who, how, when, was the name of Patrick suggested to you, and what had been done before that point. The name of Patrick didn't just come up like a mushroom; there was a preceding situation. Who put pressure on you, what do you mean by the word "pressure", who hit you? You said: "They hit me", and at the request of the lawyer Ghirga, yesterday, you described two little blows, two cuffs.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So that would be what you meant by being hit?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Or something else? Tell me if there was something else. You can tell us.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
So, you are -- [Interruptions] The question is -- [Interruptions] Escuse me. Excuse me. The question is quite clear. He is repeating this in order to give the accused a chance to add something to these events that were explained by the accused yesterday. The pubblico ministero is asking to return to these events mentioned yesterday in order to obtain more detail about exactly what happened and who did it. Please be as precise as possible.
GM:
So you were in front of --
GCM:
The question is clear.
GM:
All right, so tell us.
GCM:
Yes, it's clear.
AK:
All right. Okay.
GCM:
If you could give more detail, be more precise, exactly what was suggested to you, about the cuffs, all that.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
And who did all this, if you can.
[Start of 16:01 minute video segment]
AK:
Okay. Fine. So, when I got to the Questura, they placed me to the side, near the elevator, where I was waiting for Raffaele. I had taken my homework, and was starting to do my homework, but a policeman came in, in fact there were I don't know, three of them or something, and they wanted to go on talking to me. They asked me again --
GM:
Excuse me, excuse me --
AK:
[coldly] Can I tell the story?
GM:
Excuse me for interrupting you otherwise we'll forget --
CDV:
Presidente, I object to this way of doing things. The question was asked-- [Yelling, interruptions] --we should wait for the answer.
GM:
It's impossible to go on like this, no, no.
CDV:
If a question is asked, she has to be able to answer.
GCM:
Please, please. That's correct. There is a rule that was introduced, which says that we should absolutely avoid interruptions from anyone.
CDV:
I want to ask that she be allowed to finish her answer. She has the right, no?
GCM:
Please, please, pubblico ministero. It's impossible to go on this way.
GM:
I would like to, I can--
GCM:
No no no, no one can. We have to make sure that while someone is speaking, there are never any superimposed voices. And since the accused is undergoing examination, she has the right to be allowed to answer in the calmest possible way. Interruptions and talking at the same time don't help her, and they can't be written down in the minutes, which obliges the courts to suspend the audience and start it again at a calmer and more tranquil moment.
GM:
Presidente--
GCM:
No, no, no! Interruptions are absolutely not allowed! Not between the parties, nor when the Court, the President is speaking. So, interruptions are not allowed. Now, the accused is speaking, and when she is finished, we can return to her answers--
GM:
Presidente.
GCM:
Excuse me, please! But at the moment she is speaking, we have to avoid interrupting her. But -- I don't know if this is what was wanted -- but while you are speaking, if you could tell us when. For instance, you say you were doing homework, but you didn't tell us when. We need to know when, on what day, the 2nd of November, the 3rd, what time it was. While you are talking, you need to be more detailed, as detailed as you can with respect to the date and the time.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
And we must avoid interruptions, but when you have finished, we can discuss your answer.
AK:
Thank you. So, here is...how I understood the question, I'm answering about what happened to me on the night of the 5th and the morning of the 6th of November 2007, and when we got to the Questura, I think it was around 10:30 or nearer 11, but I'm sorry, I don't know the times very precisely, above all during that interrogation.
:
The more the confusion grew, the more I lost the sense of time. But I didn't do my homework for a very long time. I was probably just reading the first paragraph of what I had to read, when these policemen came to sit near me, to ask me to help them by telling them who had ever entered in our house. So I told them, okay, well there was this girlfriend of mine and they said no no no, they only wanted to know about men. So I said okay, here are the names of the people I know, but really I don't know, and they said, names of anyone you saw nearby, so I said, there are some people that are friends of the boys, or of the girls, whom I don't know very well, and it went on like this, I kept on answering these questions, and finally at one point, while I was talking to them, they said "Okay, we'll take you into this other room." So I said okay and went with them, and they started asking me to talk about what I had been doing that evening. At least, they kept asking about the last time I saw Meredith, and then about everything that happened the next morning, and we had to repeat again and again everything about what I did. Okay, so I told them, but they always kept wanting times and schedules, and time segments: "What did you do between 7 and 8?" "And from 8 to 9? And from 9 to 10?" I said look, I can't be this precise, I can tell you the flow of events, I played the guitar, I went to the house, I looked at my e-mails, I read a book, and I was going on like this. There were a lot people coming in and going out all the time, and there was one policeman always in front of me, who kept going on about this. Then at one point an interpreter arrived, and the interpreter kept on telling me, try to remember the times, try to remember the times, times, times, times, and I kept saying "I don't know. I remember the movie, I remember the dinner, I remember what I ate," and she kept saying "How can you you remember this thing but not that thing?" or "How can you not remember how you were dressed?" because I was thinking, I had jeans, but were they dark or light, I just can't remember. And then she said "Well, someone is telling us that you were not at Raffaele's house. Raffaele is saying that at these times you were not home." And I said, but what is he saying, that I wasn't there? I was there! Maybe I can't say exactly what I was doing every second, every minute, because I didn't look at the time. I know that I saw the movie, I ate dinner. And she would say "No no no, you saw the film at this time, and then after that time you went out of the house. You ate dinner with Raffaele, and then there is this time where you did nothing, and this time where you were out of the house." And I said, no, that's not how it was. I was always in Raffaele's apartment.
GCM:
[taking advantage of a tiny pause to slip in without exactly interrupting] Excuse me, excuse me, the pubblico ministero wants to hear precise details about the suggestions about what to say, and also about the cuffs, who gave them to you.
AK:
All right. What it was, was a continuous crescendo of these discussions and arguments, because while I was discussing with them, in the end they started to little by little and then more and more these remarks about "We're not convinced by you, because you seem to be able to remember one thing but not remember another thing. We don't understand how you could take a shower without seeing..." And then, they kept on asking me "Are you sure of what you're saying? Are you sure? Are you sure? If you're not sure, we'll take you in front of a judge, and you'll go to prison, if you're not telling the truth." Then they told me this thing about how Raffaele was saying that I had gone out of the house. I said look, it's impossible. I don't know if he's really saying that or not, but look, I didn't go out of the house. And they said "No, you're telling a lie. You'd better remember what you did for real, because otherwise you're going to prison for 30 years because you're a liar." I said no, I'm not a liar. And they said "Are you sure you're not protecting someone?" I said no, I'm not protecting anyone. And they said "We're sure you're protecting someone." Who, who, who, who did you meet when you went out of Raffaele's house?" I didn't go out. "Yes, you did go out. Who were you with?" I don't know. I didn't do anything. "Why didn't you go to work?" Because my boss told me I didn't have to go to work. "Let's see your telephone to see if you have that message." Sure, take it. "All right." So one policeman took it, and started looking in it, while the others kept on yelling "We know you met someone, somehow, but why did you meet someone?" But I kept saying no, no, I didn't go out, I'm not pro-pro-pro---
GCM:
[taking advantage of her stammer] Excuse me, okay, we understand that there was a continuous crescendo.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
As you said earlier. But if we could now get to the questions of the pubblico ministero, otherwise it will really be impossible to avoid some interruptions. If you want to be able to continue as tranquilly, as continuously as possible...
AK:
Okay, I'm sorry.
GCM:
So, if you could get to the questions about exactly when, exactly who... these suggestions, exactly what did they consist in? It seems to me...
AK:
Okay. Fine. So, they had my telephone, and at one point they said "Okay, we have this message that you sent to Patrick", and I said I don't think I did, and they yelled "Liar! Look! This is your telephone, and here's your message saying you wanted to meet him!" And I didn't even remember that I had written him a message. But okay, I must have done it. And they were saying that the message said I wanted to meet him. That was one thing. Then there was the fact that there was this interpreter next to me, and she was telling me "Okay, either you are an incredibly stupid liar, or you're not able to remember anything you've done." So I said, how could that be? And she said, "Maybe you saw something so tragic, so terrible that you can't remember it. Because I had a terrible accident once where I broke my leg..."
GCM:
The interpreter said this to you?
AK:
The interpreter, yes.
GCM:
I also wanted to ask you because it isn't clear to me: only the interpreter spoke to you, or the others also?
AK:
All the others also.
GCM:
Everyone was talking to you, all the others, but were they speaking in English?
AK:
No, in Italian.
GCM:
In Italian. And you answered in Italian?
AK:
In Italian, in English...
GCM:
And what was said to you in Italian, did it get translated to you in English?
AK:
A bit yes, a bit no, there was so much confusion, there were so many people all talking at the same time, one saying "Maybe it was like this, maybe you don't remember," another saying "No, she's a stupid liar," like that...
GCM:
But everything was eventually translated, or you understood some of it and answered right away?
AK:
It wasn't like an interrogation, like what we're doing now, where one person asks me a question and I answer. No. There were so many people talking, asking, waiting, and I answered a bit here and there.
GCM:
All right. You were telling us that the interpreter was telling you about something that had happened to her. [Interruption by Mignini.] But you need to get back to the questions asked by the pubblico ministero. This isn't a spontaneous declaration now. This is an examination. That means the pubblico ministero has asked you a question, always the same question, and we still haven't really heard the answer to it.
AK:
Yes, sorry.
GCM:
Right, so you were saying that there was this continuous crescendo.
AK:
It's difficult for me to say that one specific person said one specific thing. It was the fact that there were all these little suggestions, and someone was saying that there was the telephone, then there was the fact that... then more than anything what made me try to imagine something was someone saying to me "Maybe you're confused, maybe you're confused and you should try to remember something different. Try to find these memories that obviously you have somehow lost. You have to try to remember them. So I was there thinking, but what could I have forgotten? And I was thinking, what have I forgotten? what have I forgotten? and they were shouting "Come on, come on, come on, remember, remember, remember," and boom! on my head. [Amanda slaps herself on the back of the head: End of video segment] "Remember!" And I was like -- Mamma Mia! and then boom! [slaps head again] "Remember!"
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please, excuse me...
AK:
Those were the cuffs.
[Voices: "This is impossible!" "Avoid thinking aloud!" "Or suggestions"]
GCM:
So, the pubblico ministero asked you, and is still asking you, who is the person that gave you these two blows that you just showed us on yourself?
AK:
It was a policewoman, but I didn't know their names.
GM:
Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
So, now, I asked you a question, and I did not get an answer. You ... [interruptions]!
LG or CDV:
I object to that remark! That is a personal evaluation! Presidente! That is very suggestive. He is making an unacceptable conclusion. He can ask a question, but this is a personal opinion. It seems to me that she did answer. She answered for a good five minutes.
GCM:
Sorry, but I said that we were supposed to avoid interruptions, that we weren't supposed to interrupt when someone was speaking--
LG or CDV:
But--
GCM:
Wait -- avvocato, excuse me, please, let's try to avoid these moments which don't help anybody and probably harm the person undergoing the examination because they create tension in the court--
GM:
When I am doing the cross-examination I would like--
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero. This is another recommendation: let's avoid analyses. Let's take the answers as they come, later the right moment will come to say that from this examination, you did not obtain the answer that you expected, that the accused did not answer the questions. That is a later phase. At this moment, let's stay with the answers that we have, even if they are not exhaustive, and return to the question, but avoiding personal evaluations of their value. Go ahead, publicco ministero, go ahead.
GM:
I would like to--
GCM:
Yes, yes, go ahead, return to your question. And then you can come back to it with more details.
GM:
The central point of that interrogation was the moment when the name of Patrick emerged. You spoke of suggestions, you spoke of pressure, you spoke of being hit, I asked you to give me a precise description of who gave you the blows, you need to describe this person. Was it a woman or a man? Who asked you the questions? Who was asking you the questions? There was the interpreter, who was the person who was translating. But the exam, the interrogation, who was doing it? Apart from the people who were going in and out. You must have understood that there was a murder, and this was a police station, and the investigation was hot, and what I am asking you is, who was actually conducting the interrogation?
GCM:
The pubblico ministero is asking you, you said that the two blows were given to me by someone whose name I don't know. The pubblico ministero is asking you firstly if you can give a description of the person who hit you, if you saw her, and if you can give us a description. The second question --
AK:
So, when I -- the person who was conducting the interrogation --
GCM:
That was the second question! You're starting with the second question, that's fine, go ahead, go ahead.
AK:
Oh, sorry...
GCM:
Go on, go on. The person who was conducting the interrogation...
AK:
Well, there were lots and lots of people who were asking me questions, but the person who had started talking with me was a policewoman with long hair, chestnut brown hair, but I don't know her. Then in the circle of people who were around me, certain people asked me questions, for example there was a man who was holding my telephone, and who was literally shoving the telephone into my face, shouting "Look at this telephone! Who is this? Who did you want to meet?" Then there were others, for instance this woman who was leading, was the same person who at one point was standing behind me, because they kept moving, they were really surrounding me and on top of me. I was on a chair, then the interpreter was also sitting on a chair, and everyone else was standing around me, so I didn't see who gave me the first blow because it was someone behind me, but then I turned around and saw that woman, and she gave me another blow to the head.
GCM:
This was the same woman with the long hair?
AK:
Yes, the same one.
GCM:
All right. Are you finished? Tell me if you have something to add.
AK:
Well, I already answered.
GCM:
Fine, fine, all right. Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
I'll go on with the questions. In the minutes it mentions three people, plus the interpreter. Now, you first said that they suggested things to you. What exactly do you mean by the word "suggestion", because from your description, I don't see any suggestion. I mean, what is meant by the Italian word "suggerimento", I don't find it.
[Interruptions]
GCM:
[quelling them] Excuse me, excuse me, please, please, excuse me, excuse me! Listen, the pubblico ministero is asking you: "suggestions", you also mentioned words that were "put in your mouth", versions, things to say, circumstances to describe.
[Start of 15:22 minute video segment] The pubblico ministero is asking two things: who made the suggestions, and what exactly were you told to say? }}
AK:
All right. It seems to me that the thoughts of the people standing around me, there were so many people, and they suggested things to me in the sense that they would ask questions like: "Okay, you met someone!" No, I didn't. They would say "Yes you did, because we have this telephone here, that says that you wanted to meet someone. You wanted to meet him." No, I don't remember that. "Well, you'd better remember, because if not we'll put you in prison for 30 years." But I don't remember! "Maybe it was him that you met? Or him? You can't remember?" It was this kind of suggestion.
GCM:
When you say they said "Maybe you met him?", did they specify names?
AK:
Well, the important fact was this message to Patrick, they were very excited about it. So they wanted to know if I had received a message from him --
[Interruptions]
GCM:
Please, please!
[Interruptions, multiple voices]
CDV:
It's not possible to go on this way! [Mignini yells something at dalla Vedova]
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, excuse me!
??:
I'm going to ask to suspend the audience! I demand a suspension of five minutes!
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me! Please!
CDV:
Viva Dio, Presidente!
GM:
Presidente, I'm trying to do a cross-examination, and I must have the conditions that allow me to do it! The defense keeps interrupting.
??:
That's true!
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please--
GM:
We're asking for a suspension!
GCM:
Just a moment, excuse me. I've heard all the demands and suggestions, now the Court will decide. So.
[Several moments of silence, during which Amanda murmurs in a very tiny voice: "Scusa."]
GCM:
I want to point out that the accused offers answers to every question. She could always refuse to respond. She is answering, and that doesn't mean she has to be asked about the same circumstances again and again. She is not a witness. The accused goes under different rules. We have to accept the answers--
??:
But--
GCM:
Please, please! We have to accept the answers given by the accused. She can stop answering at any time. At some point we simply have to move on to different questions. One circumstance is being asked again, the accused answered. The regularly, the tranquillity, the rituality of the court, of the process, has to be respected. The pubblico ministero was asking about suggestions. [To Amanda] If you want a suspension we can do it right away.
AK:
No, I'm fine.
GCM:
So the pubblico ministero was asking about the suggestions. All right?
AK:
Sure.
GCM:
So, you were the one who gave the first indication, introducing this generic pronoun "him"? This "him", did they say who it could be?
AK:
It was because of the fact that they were saying that I apparently had met someone and they said this because of the message, and they were saying "Are you sure you don't remember meeting THIS person, because you wrote this message."
GCM:
In this message, was there the name of the person it was meant for?
AK:
No, it was the message I wrote to my boss. The one that said "Va bene. Ci vediamo piu tardi. Buona serata."
GCM:
But it could have been a message to anyone. Could you see from the message to whom it was written?
AK:
Actually, I don't know if that information is in the telephone. But I told them that I had received a message from Patrick, and they looked for it in the telephone, but they couldn't find it, but they found the one I sent to him.
GCM:
I also wanted to ask you for the pubblico ministero, you wrote this message in Italian. I wanted to ask you, since you are an English speaker, what do you do when you wrote in Italian? Do you first think in English, and then translate into Italian, or do you manage to think directly in Italian?
AK:
No, at that time, I first thought in English, then I would translate, and then write.
GCM:
So that clarifies that phrase. Go ahead, pubblico ministero, but I think we've exhausted the question.
GM:
Yes, yes. I just wanted one concept to be clear: that in the Italian language, "suggerire" means "indicate", someone who "suggests" a name actually says the name and the other person adopts it. That is what "suggerimento" is, and I...so my question is, did the police first pronounce the name of Patrick, or was it you? And was it pronounced after having seen the message in the phone, or just like that, before that message was seen?
??:
Objection! Objection!
GM:
On page 95, I read--
CDV:
Before the objection, what was the question?
GM:
The question was: the question that was objected was about the term "suggerimento". Because I interpret that word this way: the police say "Was it Patrick?" and she confirms that it was Patrick. This is suggestion in the Italian language.
GCM:
Excuse me, please, excuse me. Let's return to the accused. What was the suggestion, because I thought I had understood that the suggestion consisted in the fact that Patrick Lumumba, to whom the message was addressed, had been identified, they talked about "him, him, him". In what terms exactly did they talk about this "him"? What did they say to you?
AK:
So, there was this thing that they wanted a name. And the message --
GCM:
You mean, they wanted a name relative to what?
AK:
To the person I had written to, precisely. And they told me that I knew, and that I didn't want to tell. And that I didn't want to tell because I didn't remember or because I was a stupid liar. Then they kept on about this message, that they were literally shoving in my face saying "Look what a stupid liar you are, you don't even remember this!" At first, I didn't even remember writing that message. But there was this interpreter next to me who kept saying "Maybe you don't remember, maybe you don't remember, but try," and other people were saying "Try, try, try to remember that you met someone, and I was there hearing "Remember, remember, remember," and then there was this person behind me who -- it's not that she actually really physically hurt me, but she frightened me...
GCM:
"Remember!" is not a suggestion. It is a strong solicitation of your memory. Suggestion is rather...
AK:
But it was always "Remember" following this same idea, that...
GCM:
But they didn't literally say that it was him!
AK:
No. They didn't say it was him, but they said "We know who it is, we know who it is. You were with him, you met him."
GCM:
So, these were the suggestions.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
I object here on the dynamics, because here there's a contrast...well... per carita--[Brief interruption from GCM]-- From Amanda's answer, it emerges that there was this cell phone and this message and this "Answer, answer," whereas in the minutes of the Dec 17 interrogation, page 95, we find: The police could not have suggested-- [Arguing, everyone speaking, Maresca, Pacelli etc., some saying that they need to know the exact page, it's different in their version. ]
GCM:
While the pubblico ministero is talking, let's avoid interrupting him. It's true that the pages are different, but still, if you can't find the page, ask for a moment's pause, don't interrupt the reading.
GM:
So, on line number one, two, three, four...
GCM:
Pubblico ministero, don't worry about the lines, please read.
GM:
[reading] She said: "I accused Patrick and no one else because they were continually talking about Patrick." Suggesting, to use Amanda's words. I asked: "The police, the police could not suggest? And the interpreter, was she shouting the name of Patrick? Sorry, but what was the police saying?" Knox: "The police were saying, 'We know that you were in the house. We know you were in the house.' And one moment before I said Patrick's name, someone was showing me the message I had sent him." This is the objection. There is a precise moment. The police were showing her the message, they didn't know who it was--
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me pubblico ministero [talking at the same time] excuse me, excuse me, the objection consists in the following: [to Amanda], when there are contrasts or a lack of coincidence with previous statements, be careful to explain them.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
Do you confirm the declarations that the pubblico ministero read out?
AK:
I explained it better now.
GCM:
You explained it better now. All right pubblico ministero. Go ahead.
GM:
So, let's move forward.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
Now, what happened next? You, confronted with the message, gave the name of Patrick. What did you say?
AK:
Well, first I started to cry. And all the policemen, together, started saying to me, you have to tell us why, what happened? They wanted all these details that I couldn't tell them, because in the end, what happened was this: when I said the name of "Patrick", I suddenly started imagining a kind of scene, but always using this idea: images that didn't agree, that maybe could give some kind of explanation of the situation. I saw Patrick's face, then Piazza Grimana, then my house, then something green that they told me might be the sofa. Then, following this, they wanted details, they wanted to know everything I had done. But I didn't know how to say. So they started talking to me, saying, "Okay, so you went out of the house, okay, fine, so you met Patrick, where did you meet Patrick?" I don't know, maybe in Piazza Grimana, maybe near it. Because I had this image of Piazza Grimana. "Okay, fine, so you went with him to your house. Okay, fine. How did you open the door?" Well, with my key. "So you opened the house". Okay, yes. "And what did you do then?" I don't know. "But was she already there?" I don't know. "Did she arrive or was she already there?" Okay. "Who was there with you?" I don't know. "Was it just Patrick, or was Raffaele there too?" I don't know. It was the same when the pubblico ministero came, because he asked me: "Excuse me, I don't understand. Did you hear the sound of a scream?" No. "But how could you not have heard the scream?". I don't know, maybe my ears were covered. I kept on and on saying I don't know, maybe, imagining...
[End of video segment]
GCM:
[Stopping her gently] Okay, okay. Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
CDV?:
I'd like to ask a question, I'd like to make an objection about--
GCM?:
All right, so--
GM:
Is it a question or an objection? [crossing, arguing voices]
GCM:
Please, no interruptions.
CDV?:
[stronger] I said, I am asking a question and making an objection --
GCM:
But, excuse me, let's stay with essentials. Let's hear what the pubblico ministero has to say, and then we'll see. That's a premise.
GM:
I appeal to the court that this is making the examination impossible.
GCM:
Please, please, sorry. Go ahead.
GM:
I am trying to understand. In the interro-- [he breaks off in mid-word, I think dalla Vedova must have stood up again.]
GCM:
But it's not possible to hinder things this way, avvocato. Excuse me. Why?
CDV?:
[hard to hear because he's speaking at the same time as GCM] The defense would like to formally ask for a break [?]
GCM:
We haven't even heard what he is trying to say yet. You can't make preventive objections! I'm sorry, avvocato.
CDV?:
I'm not making an objection--
GCM:
[really trying to stop him but not succeeding, CDV goes on talking at the same time] Please, please avvocato, no no no no, the pubblico ministero is speaking. [GM also says some words] Excuse me, excuse me.
CDV?:
The suggestions of the PM before asking the question are inopportune, because he is suggesting and making suggestive...
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, excuse me! [He really, really needs a gavel to bang!]
GM:
[some words]
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero! We are creating useless moments--
GM:
[some words]
GCM:
[much louder] Please, pubblico ministero! Please! Now, excuse me.
GM or CDV:
Please explain this concept to me.
GCM:
Please, please! [He finally obtains silence] I understand that when these interruption happens, the tone gets a bit louder, but that is not helpful. [Interruption] Please, please-- but we are getting the impression that the objections are preventive. So while the pubblico ministero is speaking, which he has every right to do in this phase, and the defense already had their chance to do it, and they weren't interrupted yesterday, so we ask for equal treatment today, at the present moment of the examination of the accused. And the tone should always remain cordial without giving the impression of a--
CDV:
Yes, yes, no, no. But it's just that, I am asking that--
GCM:
Please, avvocato. There's no reason. We are trying to reconcile the interests of all parties, we are gathering circumstances on which the different parties are called to make analyses and the Court to decide. This will be helpful for everyone. Go ahead.
GM:
The question is this: You say, you just told me a little while ago, that... the police -- I'm trying to -- well, I have to give a little introduction so she understands my question. You said "they found this message and they asked me whom it was to, if it was true or not true." And you answered. Then the police obviously goes forward with their questions. "So, tell us". And you...you just told me, I can't read it, obviously I don't have the transcription right here, but, I might be making a mistake, I don't know, but you were saying that you remembered Piazza Grimana. Did you really say that?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, there, now what the accused is saying is: "On the basis of these elements, I tried to reconstruct a scene that could be verified." In these terms, not because she... She mentally elaborated, with her imagination: this is what I understood, how the scene could be realized, containing those elements that had come up.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
But she wasn't speaking of an effective memory of circumstances that had effectively occurred in her perception. That is the meaning of the response of the accused.
AK:
Certo.
GM:
But you said that you remembered Piazza Grimana.
AK:
I had an image of Piazza Grimana.
GM:
An image of Piazza Grimana, that's right. Now listen, in the interrogation, page 95, the same interrogation, but the same expression turns up in other places, I can give references if necessary...
[Start of 6:54 minute video segment] ...I asked this question: Why did you throw out an accusation of this type? In the confrontations with Mr. Lumumba (I was continuing and you answered right away): "I was trying, I had the possibility of explaining the message in my phone. He had told me not to come to work." Perfectly normal things. So, faced with a perfectly normal circumstance, "My boss texted me to tell me not to come to work and I answered him," you could have just stated that. End of response. Instead, faced with the message, and the questions of the police, you threw out this accusation. So I am asking you, why start accusing him when you could calmly explain the exchange of messages? Why did you think those things could be true? }}
AK:
I was confused.
GM:
You have repeated that many times. But what does it mean? Either something is true, or it isn't true. Right now, for instance, you're here at the audience, you couldn't be somewhere else. You couldn't say "I am at the station." You are right here, right now.
AK:
Certainly. [Some noise]
GCM:
The question is clear.
AK:
Can I answer?
GCM:
[quelling noise] Excuse me, excuse me! Please, go ahead.
AK:
My confusion was because firstly, I couldn't understand why the police was treating me this way, and then because when I explained that I had spent the whole time with Raffaele, they said "No, you're a liar". It was always this thing that either I didn't remember or I was lying. The fact that I kept on and on repeating my story and they kept saying "No, you're going to prison right now if you don't tell the truth," and I said "But I've told the truth," "No, you're a liar, now you're going to prison for 30 years because either you're a stupid liar or you forgot. And if it's because you forgot, then you'd better remember what happened for real, right now." This is why I was confused. Because I didn't understand. I didn't understand why. I didn't understand anything any more. I was so scared and impressed by all this that at some point I thought What the heck, maybe they're right, maybe I forgot.
GM:
So, and then, you accused Lumumba of murder. This is the conclusion.
[Some noise]
GCM:
Please, go on with the questions.
GM:
So, I wanted to know something else. At what time did the water leak in Sollecito's house?
AK:
After dinner, I don't know what time it was.
GM:
Towards 21, 21:30?
AK:
21, that's 9? No, it was much later than that.
GM:
A bit later? How much?
AK:
We had dinner around...10:30, so that must have happened a bit later than that. Maybe around 11 [slow voice as though thinking it out, lots of 'I don't really know' gestures].
GM:
And then, the next morning, at what time did you go to Sollecito's house to clean up the water? Was the water still on the floor?
AK:
There still was a bit, there still was a bit of water on the ground, but not too much to clean up.
GM:
From 23:00 onwards, at what time did you go to his house to clean up the water?
AK:
Twenty-three...okay. The next morning, I didn't look at the clock, but I went to my house around 10:30. And then I went back, it must have been before midday.
GM:
What day are we talking about?
AK:
We're still talking about Nov 2.
GM:
November 2.
AK:
In the morning. I think it was maybe around 11:30? Just by reasoning, but I didn't look at the clock.
GM:
Listen, on the morning of Nov 2, you went to your house, and you saw the traces of blood in the little bathroom.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
The traces of blood on the bathmat.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
When was the last time you had been in that bathroom?
AK:
Me?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I must have...well, before the 2nd, I must have gone in there at least once when I came home on Nov 1st.
GM:
Excuse me, but what time did you leave the house in via della Pergola on Nov 1?
AK:
Around...4 o'clock, maybe? I don't look at the clock. But I know it must have been 4 or 5 o'clock when we left the house on Nov 1.
GM:
And you were in the little bathroom before leaving the house?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now, the last time you were in the little bathroom, before leaving the house, it might have been more or less around 4 o'clock?
AK:
Around then, yes.
GM:
All right. You knew that Filomena wasn't home?
AK:
I knew that she had gone to a party that afternoon.
GM:
A party. Fine. And Mezzetti?
AK:
Laura, you know, I didn't know where she was. I knew she wasn't in the house when I was there, but I didn't really know where she was.
GM:
When you saw the bathroom for the last time, were there traces of blood in it?
AK:
No.
GM:
All right. Now, let's get to the moment when Meredith's door was broken down--
AK:
Okay --
GM:
We can go backwards later. Did you see Meredith's room?
AK:
No.
GM:
Did you get a glimpse?
AK:
No.
GM:
Where were you?
AK:
I was near the entrance, in the living room.
GM:
Sollecito was with you?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So he didn't see either.
AK:
He didn't either.
[End video segment]
GM:
From what Frost, Meredith's friend, said, and the others, we heard that you, or Sollecito, claimed to have seen the body in the closet, covered with a sheet, and nothing could be seen but a foot. Now if you hadn't seen the room, and Raffaele hadn't seen it either, how could you make this observation? How could you -- I'm asking another question -- and how could this closet contain Meredith's body? You know the closet, right? I have a black and white photo of it here. Here. This closet.
AK:
All right. Firstly, I think Frost made a little mistake, because I never said that I saw Meredith's body in the closet. I said that I had heard people around me saying that there was a body in the closet, that was covered, with a foot sticking out. I too was confused by this, but that's what I heard. But when people kept on asking me what happened, what they had found, I answered what I had heard.
GM:
Or what Raffaele told you.
AK:
Raffaele, or the people he was asking for me.
GM:
Why do you say, or rather, it's the lawyer who says, he was speaking for you right then: "She confirmed that Raffaele heard from other people that maybe this was the version." Page 78 of my... Do you remember this? And also page 79.
AK:
Do I remember that interrogation?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I remember the fact that Raffaele was asking the people around us what they had seen.
GM:
Look, on page 79 you say: "I understand, I understand. He said precisely: 'Apparently there's a girl, there's the body of a girl in the closet, but the only thing you can see is her foot.' " You say that Raffaele said this.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
You confirm it.
AK:
I confirm that as we understood from the people around us, there was this fact about the closet, a body in the closet.
GM:
But it's Raffaele who said it to you, not the people around.
AK:
But--
GM:
You said that the people around you told it to him.
AK:
Raffaele was the person who was helping me to understand what they were saying. He spoke to me, explaining everything that was happening, because in the end, I was in shock and also I didn't understand.
GM:
So, who were these people who said this to Raffaele?
AK:
We were all asking each other, because there was Filomena's friend, who had maybe obviously heard it from the police, but it's not like a followed exactly where the information was coming from. Everyone was talking. Everyone was giving explanations and versions and information, and I kept turning to Raffaele because at least he understood the language. I didn't even understand...
GM:
Raffaele didn't tell you who told him?
AK:
No, but he was explaining to me above all what I asked him: what happened, what was in the room, those things.
GM:
I'm asking you, but if you don't know, just tell me: did he say to you "Filomena told me" or "such-and-such told me", Altieri, the tall girl, the others that were there that saw into the room. There was no girl in the closet. Did he tell you who told him that? That there was a girl inside the closet?
AK:
No, he didn't tell me who said that. It was the people around.
GCM:
Okay, okay. She already answered. All right pubblico ministero, go ahead.
GM:
I wanted to spend a moment on one last question, maybe the last but I don't know, about the morning of the 6th.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
There's another thing I didn't understand. You said pressure was put on you, and there were suggestions, you explained today exactly what those consisted in, to say the name of Patrick and to accuse Patrick. Then you wrote a memorandum in which you confirm everything. And you weren't under pressure right then. Why didn't you just say: "I falsely accused someone." Someone who was in prison, who was put in prison, maybe for a long time. Can you explain this to me?
AK:
Certo.
CDV?:
Can I make an objection? Very, very calmly and without animosity?
GCM:
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you [for the calm, no doubt]. Thank you.
CDV?:
It seems to me that the pubblico ministero, in presenting his questions, always makes references which go as far as actually suggesting the answers, and also --
GM:
Well it is a cross-examination.
GCM:
Please, please let's avoid interruptions and let each person express what he has to say. Go ahead, avvocato.
CDV?:
In the question he just asked, he mentions the memorandum and says it confirms. Now, this might be a specific question, but it should not be an assertion on the part of the pubblico ministero, followed by another question. If we look in the minutes, we find a series of unilateral declarations which all go to show what interests the pubblico ministero. To my mind, this mentality goes against our way of examining the accused. I just want to make this clear.
GCM:
All right, taking into account these remarks, the pubblico ministero's question remains. It could be rephrased like this: during the 5th and the 6th, you said there were pressures, and the name of Patrick Lumumba emerged as also being involved in these events. But as the pubblico ministero notes, you then you wrote the memorandum spontaneously. We heard that you yourself asked for paper to be able to write it.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
And writing with this liberty, you even referred to it as a gift, these elements which had already emerged, you reasserted them, and this involvement of Patrick Lumumba. What the pubblico ministero is asking is: how did you -- this question was already asked yesterday -- in these different circumstances, you weren't in the room any more, there wasn't any pressure, why didn't the truth somehow get stabilized?
AK:
Yes, yes. In fact, what happened is that I had literally been led to believe that somehow, I had forgotten something real, and so with this idea that I must have forgotten, I was practically convinced myself that I really had forgotten. And these images, that I was actually forcing myself to imagine, were really lost memories. So, I wasn't sure if those images were reality or not, but explaining this to the police, they didn't want to listen to the fact that I wasn't sure. They treated me as though I had now remembered everything and everything was fine and I could now make a declaration in the tribunal against someone, to accuse someone. I didn't feel sure about that. I didn't feel--
GCM:
Excuse me, but in the memorandum, do you remember what you wrote about Patrick? Because maybe it wasn't precise...
GM:
[Interrupting] I want-- I want-- I want to contest this point. Two points in the memorandum. If I'm not mistaken, you weren't a witness right then. You had been the object of an arrest warrant. You had been arrested. You know the difference between a suspect and a witness. You weren't a witness. Not any longer. So in the memorandum--
CDV?:
One moment-- [hard to hear] Does she know the difference?
GM:
Can I continue? Sorry, avvocato, but I'm asking questions! Can I continue? He's continually --
GCM:
Sorry, sorry, go ahead.
GM:
This is impossible!
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero, go ahead, go ahead.
GM:
I am interrogating. I am interrogating. Now I'm distracted. Now, the difference between a suspect and a witness -- a person informed of the facts. You said: "I made these declarations so that I could leave, so I could be--" but instead, you were arrested. And you wrote the memorandum after you had been arrested. And you wrote two sentences: I'll read them. "I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick." [In Italian: "I confirm..."] Do you know what the word "confirm" means in Italian? "In the flashbacks that I'm having, I see Patrick as the murderer." There wasn't any policeman with you when you wrote that. No one. You wrote that in complete liberty. Do you know how to explain to me why? And this is even more decisive than what you said some hours earlier. Can you explain this?
AK:
I couldn't even explain to myself why I had these images in my head, because I didn't know if they were memories or not. And I want to say that if I made these declarations, that they asked me to sign and everything, I did it, but I wanted in the memorandum to explain my doubt, this fact that I wasn't sure about it, because no one ever wanted to listen when I said listen, I don't know.
GCM?:
Effectively the memorandum was correcting what had been said, and these doubts arose.
GM:
Do you have lapses of memory? At that time did you ever have lapses of memory?
AK:
Did I have what?
GM:
Lapses of memory.
AK:
Oh, lapses of memory.
GM:
Lapses of memory. Moments where you couldn't remember things that you had done. "What did I do yesterday? I don't know."
AK:
[Laughing] I've had that problem all my life.
GM:
What?
AK:
I've had that problem all my life. I can't remember where I put my keys.
GM:
So it happened to you at other times? Explain it to me. You previously mixed up things, didn't know whether you had dreamed things or they were real?
AK:
No, not that part about the imagination! I would forget for example what I ate yesterday for dinner, yes, that happened to me, but not to actually imagine things.
GM:
To imagine something that hadn't really happened, that never happened to you.
AK:
No. I never had that problem, but then, I had never been interrogated like that before.
GM:
Okay, so when you had this flashback, you saw Patrick as the murderer. What was this flashback?
AK:
The flashback consisted in this image of Patrick's actual face, not that I imagined an actual act, I imagined his face. Then I had this image of Piazza Grimana, then an image of Patrick's face, then I always had this idea that they wanted to say: these images explain the fact that you met him, and you brought him home, and maybe you heard something and covered your ears, and it was always like this, not that I actually imagined having seen Meredith's death. It was these images that came by themselves, to explain...
GM:
I see. All right. I take note of what you're saying. Now, let's talk about your memorandum from the 7th, still written in total autonomy, without anyone around you. You wrote: "I didn't lie when I said that I thought the murderer was Patrick. At that moment I was very stressed and I really did think that it was Patrick." Then you add "But now I know that I can't know who the murderer is, because I remember that I didn't go home." Can you explain these concept to me?
AK:
Yes, because I was convinced that I somehow could have forgotten. So in that moment, I--
GM:
So what you had said might have actually been true?
AK:
Yes.
AK:
Yes, it could have been true, but at that moment. But then, when I was able to rethink the facts, it became clearer and clearer that it didn't make sense, that it was absolutely ridiculous that I could have thought that or imagined it.
GM:
But didn't you feel the need to intervene to get an innocent person out of prison? You didn't feel the need?
AK:
But the police had already called me a liar, and I didn't feel they were listening to me. Also because in the Questura--
GM:
But you were in prison!
AK:
But in the Questura, I had already told them: Look, I'm not sure about this, and they didn't want to hear that. They didn't want to listen, because they said to me "No, you'll remember it later. You just need a little time to really remember these facts." I told them no, I don't think it's like that, but they didn't want to listen.
GM:
They didn't believe you. But you, once you said that you remembered, [snaps fingers?] you could have just made a declaration or sent me another memorandum saying "No, I didn't say the truth. Patrick is innocent."
GCM:
Excuse me, we already had explanations about this.
GM:
All right, I have another question.
GCM:
Please, go ahead.
GM:
I have another question. You had a 250 dollar fine from the court in Seattle.
AK:
What? Oh, yes, yes.
GM:
Can you explain this event? What was the motive?
AK:
In Seattle, I lived with four friends of mine in a house. When our lease ended, we wanted to have a party to celebrate the end of our time living together and also just the end of the year. So, we had a party. At the party there was a band, one of my friends played in it. So there was a band, and they made such a tremendous racket that the neighbors called the police to come and stop the noise. Since I was the person in the best state to talk to the police right then, I went out of the house and took responsibility for the noise. So I got the fine, and everybody helped me pay it.
GM:
Do you know about the article that appeared on "Mail Online", by [name?], on Dec 3 2007, which refers to the event -- I ask for the acquisition of this article -- in which the episode is described with many details. There is also a translation into Italian. I would like to ask for the translation of this article. [Intervention: "This will be made available to all parties." A fairly long pause.]
GCM:
Excuse me. Is there actually a question?
GM:
It talks about incredibly loud music, drugs, alcohol and throwing rocks into the street.
GCM:
Could you please ask actual questions?
GM:
Yes. Do you remember this episode?
GCM:
Excuse me. The pubblico ministero is asking-- you described this episode in the terms we just heard. But the pubblico ministero is asking whether there was use of alcohol and drugs on that occasion, or whether it was just a question of too much noise making a disturbance?"
AK:
So in fact--
GM:
And other things. In the article there's also--
GCM:
The Court doesn't know anything about this. Excuse me, please. All right, let's say "And other things?"
GM:
There is a report by police officer Bender.
GCM:
Oh, all right. Okay, okay. Let's just make specific and precise questions. [Noise] Excuse me, excuse me. Please, please. You just briefly sketched the episode. The pubblico ministero is asking for details. For instance, about the use of drugs and the alcohol.
AK:
So, there was alcohol at this party; we had beer. I didn't know anything about drugs because I was inside the house.
GM:
So you don't know about drugs.
AK:
Right. I don't know about drugs at the party, but there was beer for sure.
GCM:
Anything else? Beer, and anything else?
AK:
And noise.
GM:
I can ask other questions on this point. It's been mentioned that there were naked people around. And rocks getting thrown at windows and into the street, so much that it was blocking the traffic--
CDV?:
Excuse me, excuse me! That was the article, but it could say things that aren't true.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please! It has been requested that this document be produced and placed at the disposal of all parties. Then the Court will see. If there are other questions--
GM:
Is it true what this article says?
AK:
[Laughing] No. No.
GCM:
But do you have specific questions?
GM:
What is the significance of this sum of 269 dollars?
GCM:
She said it, it's a ticket. A fine. Payment of a sum.
GM:
But penal?
AK:
It's like when you park your car in a forbidden place and you have to pay a fine. It's the same thing.
GCM:
All right, all right. She represented the facts and she represented their consequences. We don't have to give the administrative or penal analysis now.
GM:
Now, let's get to the episode of the 23rd.
AK:
Twenty-third?
GM:
The twenty-third. We have the Italian translation. The 23rd of November...no, the 23rd...the audition of the assistant Gioia Broci and someone else from the 23rd of last April, in which she made reference to the survey or visit to the via della Pergola on November 4.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
She says that while you were looking at the silverware--
AK:
The what?
GM:
The knives... You started to tremble and cry and covered your ears with your hands. Suddenly. Can you explain why?
AK:
As I said...
GCM:
Tell him if the episode is true, if it happened, how and why.
AK:
All right. The fact that I cried in the house when I saw the knives is true. I cried, because when I entered the house, I had to look around to see if anything was missing that could have been used to kill someone, it made a strong impression on me. It was as if all that time, I hadn't been able to even accept the fact that she was really killed, Meredith, and then having to actually be inside the house, looking at knives, being actually there, it was as though the people around me...I was there, and they were asking me to look if there were any knives missing. I said "Okay", but the situation was so heavy, I don't know, it really hit me.
GM:
So when you looked at the knives, you felt disturbed.
AK:
Yes, I was disturbed, it made such an impression on me.
GM:
Okay. Okay. Listen, another question. The lamp that was found in Meredith's room, a black lamp with a red button, that was found in Meredith's room, at the foot of the bed. Was it yours?
AK:
I did have a lamp with a red button in my room, yes.
GM:
So the lamp was yours.
AK:
I suppose it was.
GM:
Was it missing from your room?
AK:
You know, I didn't look.
GM:
Did Meredith have a lamp like that in her room?
AK:
I don't know.
GM:
Hm. All right. Listen, when did you know that the boys from the downstairs apartment were all leaving for the long weekend?
AK:
I had kind of heard that they wanted to celebrate Halloween somehow or other, but I didn't understand or didn't know where they were going and how long they were going to be away. It's always because when everyone was talking together, us and the boys from downstairs, I didn't really understand very well, I didn't get a really clear sense of what was happening.
GM:
But you know that November 2nd, unless I'm mistaken, was a Friday. No?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So then there was Saturday and Sunday; you knew that those days were a holiday here, didn't you? The 1st and the 2nd.
AK:
Yes, I wanted to go to Gubbio.
GM:
Right. But what you just said about Halloween, you must have heard that on October 31, no? In the morning?
AK:
I don't know exactly when I heard it.
GM:
But you knew they were going away, the boys.
AK:
I knew they were going to do something to celebrate Halloween together, at least that's what I understood.
GM:
Hm. Now, how is it that you went downstairs to see if they were home, on the morning of the 2nd?
AK:
I didn't know whether they were home, or not. We wanted to go down and ask them if they had heard anything.
GM:
Hm.
AK:
So I went there, I knocked...
GM:
And nobody had told you that they had all gone to their respective homes, rather far from Perugia?
AK:
If they said that, then I didn't understand it, because really I thought that they were just talking about Halloween.
GM:
Now, on the evening of November 1, do you remember if Raffaele received any phone calls while you were at his house?
AK:
At Halloween?
GM:
The evening of the 1st.
AK:
Ah, the evening of the 1st. I don't remember.
GM:
You don't remember. So. Listen, another question. Do you remember, on the morning of the 2nd, if Raffaele tried to break down the door of the room?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
How then, when later Romanelli arrived, you said that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door. Yet you tried to break it down. Can you explain this?
AK:
Certainly. When the police came they asked, at least they asked Filomena, if that door was ever locked, and she said "No no no no, it's never, never locked." I said "No, that's not true that it's really never locked," because sometimes it actually was locked. But for me, it was strange that it was locked and she wasn't answering, so for me it was strange, but I wanted to explain that it wasn't impossible, that she did lock her door now and then.
GM:
But usually, you remember her door being open.
AK:
Yes it was usually open or at least...yes.
GM:
But on that morning, I understand that you were said to have stated that Meredith always locked her door. And that it was normal.
AK:
I never said it was always locked. It's just that they didn't understand. I just wanted to explain that it was not always open.
GM:
I see, you didn't explain properly.
GCM:
The pubblico ministero is asking you: okay, you say it was not always open, not always closed, but it was a circumstance which didn't particularly alarm you, so much so that you even said this to Romanelli.
AK:
Yes, because Filomena was answering like that--
GCM:
Okay, okay, but it sounds like the locked door didn't alarm you, whereas in fact Raffaele Sollecito had already tried to break down the door. So?
AK:
Well, I was worried because she wasn't answering. The fact that the door was locked wouldn't have alarmed me if, say, she had answered, but the fact that she didn't answer when we called her made us think: maybe she's in there and she isn't well or something.
GCM:
Yes, but per carita, still on this circumstance. A door is locked, locked, why should I think there is someone inside who isn't answering me? I could just calmly think that nobody is there--
AK:
Also that. But we weren't sure. Sorry--
GCM:
--and if she's not home, why should I be worried? Enough to ruin the door by breaking it down? Why should I think that there is someone there who is not answering me? The simplest answer is that she left, locked the door and left. She's not answering, why call her? The door is locked, she's not there.
AK:
I know. But the fact that there were all these strange things in the house--
GCM:
No, excuse me. Per carita. After this, the other party will continue the examination. I want to say: you find the main door open, you can think that she left and forgot to close it, but she locked her own door. Why should you be so worried that you try to break down her door? I think this is what the pubblico ministero is asking. There. If you could explain why you were so worried in relation to your knowledge. Your motive for trying to break down the door.
AK:
Yes. I was worried that somehow she was inside and had hurt herself, because there were so many strange things in the house, and so I didn't know what to think. But at the same time, she could have been inside or not, but I wanted to be sure, because if she had hurt herself in some way, or if someone was in there, or if she went out because there was something in there, I didn't know. And the fact that the door was locked together with the broken window had me very worried, I didn't know what to think, but I was worried. So I wanted to knock the door down to see if there was something in there. I didn't know what. But at the same time it worried me. And when I said to Filomena "It's not true that it's never locked," I only wanted to explain the truth of the situation. Because someone was saying "No, no, it's never locked," and that wasn't true. I wanted to explain that.
GM:
I see. On the 3rd of November, did you go to the store Discovery, on the day after the discovery of the body of Meredith?
AK:
When I bought underwear?
GM:
Yes. What happened there? Tell us a bit.
AK:
So, I didn't have any more clothes, so I went with Raffaele to this store to get underwear, because I didn't even know when I would be able to go back into my own house and get my things back. So we went there and looked at some clothes, and in the end I bought a pair of underwear.
GM:
The document in our possession -- where is it now?
GCM:
We are looking at it. But I don't know, maybe it would be better to take a break? Shall we suspend proceedings?
AK:
That would be beautiful.
GCM:
Fine. We'll suspend the audience -- now it's 11:17 -- we'll suspend until 11:28, to start again at 11:30.
11:30 a.m. Resumption after a 15-minute break }}
GCM:
Now we can resume the audience, continuing the examination by the pubblico ministero of the accused.
GM:
Here is the document we need to acquire.
GCM:
Oh, the document is still ...oh yes, we have it. Good, good. The parties have all had a look. Go ahead, pubblico ministero
GM:
Listen, do you remember....Let me show you. Do you recognize your signature on this interrogation?
GCM:
What interrogation is that?
GM:
This is the statement made following your spontaneous declarations.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
You recognize your signature.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now, another question. You told us before, this story about the door, about knocking down the door, that Raffaele tried to break down the door. You said that you tried to explain that sometimes she did have her door locked, you told us about this point. Now, I want to ask you this question: Raffaele didn't by any chance try to break down the door to get back the lamp we talked about?
AK:
[perfectly calm reasonable voice] No, we didn't know the lamp was in there.
GM:
You didn't know that your lamp was in there?
AK:
In the sense that the lamp that was supposed to be in my room, I hadn't even noticed it was missing. I tried--
GM:
You didn't see that it was missing?
AK:
No, I didn't see that it was missing. We tried to break down the door because I was so worried after having seen the broken window. I basically panicked. I was thinking, Good Lord, what's going on here? I ran downstairs to see if anyone down there had heard anything, then I tried to see if she was inside. She locked her door when she needed "privacy" [English]. So if she wasn't in there but the door was locked, it seemed strange to me. Also the fact that the window was broken worried me. It wasn't to get something.
GM:
Yes, yes. Listen, did you actually observe Filomena Romanelli's room?
AK:
I saw that there was "chaos" [English] in there. I saw the broken window, and a lot of stuff on the floor.
GM:
Did you see anything else? Did you see the rock?
AK:
I didn't see the rock. I saw that there was the computer on the tab-- No! The camera was on the table. I saw that the things were still there. I didn't see the rock.
GM:
Listen, did you see the clothes on the floor?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
And the glass? On top of the clothes?
AK:
Well, I saw that the glass was broken and there were pieces of glass all over the place.
GM:
Also on top of the clothes?
AK:
I suppose there was, but I can't say.
GM:
Listen, did you actually check whether anything was stolen?
AK:
I don't know everything that Filomena has. But I saw that there was lots of stuff all over the place, so I couldn't really check. That's why I called her. I saw that the things that I recognized, things of value, were still in the apartment, like the television, the computer, those things. That's why I thought: What a strange burglary!
GM:
Strange, eh.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
That basically there was no burglary.
AK:
Well, no. I saw that there was a broken window, so I did think there had been a burglary.
GM:
I have no other questions.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
If the pubblico ministero has no more questions, then the other parties who have not already examined may question. Please, go ahead.
MC:
You said that you called your mother on the morning of Nov 2.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
When did you call her for the first time?
AK:
The first time was right away after they had sent us out of the house. I was like this [probably mimes shaking], I sat on the ground, and I called my mother.
MC:
So this was when either the police or the carabinieri had already intervened.
AK:
It was after they had broken down the door and sent us outside. I don't know what kind of police it was, but it was the ones who arrived first. Later, many other people arrived.
MC:
But from the records, we see that you called your mother -- not only from the records but also the pings [?] that you first called your mother at 12. At midday.
AK:
Okay?
MC:
What time is it at midday? What time is it in Seattle, if in Perugia it is midday?
AK:
In Seattle it's morning. It's a nine hour difference, so three in the morning.
MC:
Three o'clock at night?
AK:
Yes.
MC:
So your mother was surely sleeping.
AK:
Yes.
MC:
But at 12:00 nothing had happened yet. That's what your mother also said--
AK:
I told my mother --
MC:
-- during the conversation you had with her in prison. Even your mother was amazed that you called her at midday, which was three or four o'clock at night, to tell her that nothing had happened.
AK:
I didn't know what had happened. I just called my mother to say that we had been sent out of the house, and that I had heard something --
MC:
But at midday nothing had happened yet in the sense that the door had not been broken down yet.
AK:
Hm. Okay. I don't remember that phone call. I remember that I called her to tell her what we had heard about a foot. Maybe I did call before, but I don't remember it.
MC:
But if you called her before, why did you do it?
AK:
I don't remember, but if I did it, I would have called to--
MC:
You did do it.
AK:
Okay, fine. But I don't remember. I don't remember that phone call.
GCM:
Excuse me. You don't remember, but the pubblico ministero just pointed out to you a phone call that your mother received in the night.
MC:
At three o'clock at night.
GCM:
So, it must have been true, it happened. Did you have the habit of calling her at that time? Did it happen on other occasions? At midday in Italy? At a time where in Seattle...people don't usually call each other in the middle of the night.
AK:
Yes, yes, of course.
GCM:
So either you had a particular motive, or it was a habit.
AK:
Yes. Well, since I don't remember this phone call, because I remember the one I made later, but obviously I made that phone call. If I did that, it's because I thought that I had something I had to tell her. Maybe I thought right then that there was something strange, because at that moment, when I went to Raffaele's place, I did think there was something strange, but I didn't know what to think. But I really don't remember this phone call, so I can't say for sure why. But I guess it was because I came home and the door was open, and then --
MC:
It's strange. You don't remember the phone call, but do you remember the conversation with your mother in prison?
AK:
I had so many. But yes.
MC:
This conversation must have been the one of the 10th of November. Do you remember when your mother said "But at 12, nothing had happened yet."
AK:
I don't remember that.
MC:
But you do confirm that from the time when you turned off your cell phone until the next morning, you were always with Raffaele Sollecito.
AK:
Yes.
MC:
Always.
AK:
Yes. I fell asleep with him.
MC:
And in the morning you went out around 10:30.
AK:
Around then.
MC:
You went to get the mop.
AK:
Yes. To take a shower and change, and get the mop, yes.
MC:
But hadn't you taken a shower the evening before, at Raffaele's place?
AK:
Yes, but then we made love. So I wanted to take another shower.
MC:
The next day. Not right away after. But the next day.
AK:
Well, we made love and then I fell asleep. Then, the next morning, I wanted to take a shower.
MC:
Where did you buy your marijuana?
AK:
I didn't buy marijuana.
MC:
Who bought it?
AK:
I smoked when friends had some, so...for example, when we were at home, often one person would make a joint, and then each person would smoke it a bit and pass it around. But I never bought any.
MC:
And when you and Raffaele were alone?
AK:
Raffaele and I -- Raffaele had some marijuana, yes.
MC:
And where did he buy it?
AK:
I don't know. I don't know the people who give out marijuana.
MC:
And you don't know the people who gave it to Raffaele.
AK:
No. I never met them.
MC:
Fine. No other questions.
FM:
Yes. Good day. Avvocato Maresca, for the Kercher family. The first question I want to ask you. I'm going back to finish the subject of the telephone call to your mother on the morning of Nov 2, about which you just spoke to the pubblico ministero.
AK:
The 2nd or the 1st of November? Because I thought I was talking...oh, okay! Yes. The 2nd.
FM:
Of November. November 2.
AK:
Sorry. Dates...
FM:
So, you called your mother three times. Do you remember that?
AK:
I remember calling my mom. I don't remember how many times. There was so much to think about right then.
FM:
Fine. Do you remember speaking to your mother in prison on November 10th about this very phone call?
AK:
I don't remember specifically, but probably we talked about it, yes.
FM:
Do you remember how surprised your mother was that you didn't even remember about this phone call?
AK:
I remember her being a bit surprised that I didn't remember very well. But in the end I explained to her that there was just so much movement going on right then, so much confusion, and the whole morning was so emotional, and so all the specific things got mixed up.
FM:
Yes. So, let me give you a specific question.
AK:
Okay.
FM:
You referred in your conversation with your mother to your phone call to Romanelli. Do you remember that?
AK:
Wait...
GCM:
Can you be more precise and read it to us from the page?
FM:
Yes, certainly. Page 35-36 of the transcription of the conversation of Nov 10. Your mother, surprised, says: You called me three times. You say: Oh, I don't remember that. She says: Okay, you called me once to tell me some things that had shocked you. But this happened before anything really happened in the house, says your mother. You say: I know I was calling, I remember calling Filomena, but I really don't remember calling anyone else. I just don't remember this thing about having called you. Your mother says: Why would that be? Stress, you think? Yes, right, and the conversation continues.
AK:
Okay.
FM:
So, my specific question -- I don't want to be interrupted! Presidente, I am examining her as I was allowed --
GCM:
Go ahead, go ahead. There was no interruption!
FM:
I didn't even ask the question yet! Avvocato dalla Vedova gets up punctually at every question!
GCM:
Getting up doesn't matter, the important thing is that there are no interruptions. Excuse me, please!
CDV:
Can I make an objection to this?
FM:
Can I ask my question or not?
GCM:
Let him ask the question, then we'll see about objecting. Please, go ahead.
FM:
So, the question is: is there a specific motive for which -- since yesterday you testified that you called your mother because, specifically answering a question by the defense, you didn't have anyone in Perugia that you could turn to, right? So the question is, is there a reason for which, in your conversation with your mother on Nov 10, you can't remember three phone calls that you made to her in the middle of the night in Seattle about these things that were happening in the house?
AK:
I imagine that --
CDV:
I object to this question! Because the reference to the transcription was read out with one sentence skipped by the lawyer for the civil plaintiff.
FM:
Presidente, I textually read everything.
GCM:
Excuse me, please, please.
FM:
Presidente, this "skipping" annoys me. I do not skip anything. I read out to the Court exactly the entire passage. If someone skipped, it was someone else. Yes?
[A moment spirited arguing with FM and CDV speaking simultaneously about one or three phone calls, etc. and GCM covering their voices with repeated "Excuse me, please" etc.]
CDV:
I'll repeat the objection. After reading about Amanda's saying 'I don't remember' and her mother saying 'Why would that be? Stress, you think?', Amanda says "Because a lot of things were happening very quickly at that point'. Okay, right, okay. But, he skipped the sentence "Because a lot of things were happening very quickly at that point.' The lawyer for the civil plaintiff did not read it out.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me.
CDV:
I wanted to make that precise. It wasn't an objection.
GCM:
But the question is--the question by the defense is--
FM:
The question was about the reason for the stress being some other reason.
GCM:
So, the question asked by the defense of the civil plaintiff was: How could you not remember that phone call, even though it was made at a very, very special time for the person who received the call?
AK:
Ah, okay. I do remember one call afterwards, the one that I made after they sent us out of the house. But, I don't know if it's because I was thinking about so many things, but somehow I forgot, I don't know.
FM:
Yesterday, you mentioned having a lot of friends, both in the US and in Perugia. Did you consider Meredith Kercher to be a friend?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
Did you suffer from the loss of this friend?
AK:
Yes, I was very, very shocked by it. I couldn't even imagine such a thing.
FM:
Do you think about her in your daily life, do you think about this friend who was with you in your house?
AK:
Yes, I remember her. But in the end, I only knew her for one month, and more than anything, I am trying to think how to go forward with my own life, so yes, I remember her, and I am so upset about what happened, and sometimes it seems to me that it can't be real. I don't really know what to think of this thing. But yes. I suffered.
FM:
All right. We heard, and you gave testimony on this point, about your behavior in the Questura, the cartwheel, the gymnastics, the stretching and so forth.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
According to you, was this behavior appropriate, a normal behavior faced with such a misfortune, or was this something special?
AK:
According to me, each person confronts a tragedy in their own way, and I am used to trying to find normality, at least my own normality, in situations of difficulty. This is my way of feeling more secure, because I was feeling really, really, really scared of what had happened, very shocked. I didn't know how to face up to the situation, and for me it was surreal, but I was obliged to accept the fact that it had happened, so my behavior -- yes, I know that they are a bit lighthearted, but that's just how I am.
FM:
But at that moment, were you scared, or grieving? Or both?
AK:
I was so -- I was very disoriented.
FM:
And Patrick Lumumba, did you consider him as a friend, or not?
AK:
I saw him, yes, pretty much as a friend, for the short time I had spent around him. I had a good relationship with him.
FM:
In the days spent at the Questura -- later we'll look at them one by one in order -- did you ever think that Patrick Lumumba might be guilty?
AK:
Before I was interrogated on Nov 5th/6th, I never thought that.
FM:
So you thought it for the first time on the 5th and 6th?
AK:
Yes, yes.
FM:
Then you changed your mind about his guilt.
AK:
When? In the sense that on the 5th and 6th --
FM:
No, after the 5th and 6th.
AK:
After the 5th and 6th --
FM:
On the 5th and 6th, you considered him guilty. When did you change?
AK:
I imagined that he could be--
FM:
I'll ask you later about imagination. Now tell me when you changed your mind about Patrick Lumumba.
AK:
I changed my mind when I realized that my imaginings were not really memories, but just imagination.
FM:
When? When?
AK:
The more time passed, the more I felt sure. But definitely, when I was in prison and alone in my cell, I had so much time to rethink about all the facts I remembered, and about the fact that I remembered not having been with him on that night. The more I thought, mamma mia, he's probably innocent.
FM:
How many days later?
AK:
How many days?
FM:
Weeks, days, hours, I don't know. The question is: when?
AK:
I already had a doubt when I was in the Questura. But I became completely sure when -- at least I was completely sure that I had never been with him, so what everyone was thinking, that it was him, was only because I myself had said something, and that convinced me that he was innocent. But in the end, I just couldn't know for sure. I could only know that what I myself had said was not the truth.
FM:
And when did this happen?
AK:
When I was in prison, I guess, but I already had doubts--
FM:
But when in prison?
AK:
--while I was in the Questura...
FM:
But when? Can you tell me? A few days later? A few weeks later?
AK:
No, but even this feeling of doubt starting getting stronger, already on the very next day. As soon as I had time to get paper and try to remember things--
GCM:
[stopping her] Okay, okay! Go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
But the next day, in your memorandum of the 7th, you confirmed that Patrick Lumumba, that what you said about him was true. So, it must have been a few days later with respect to this memorandum, diary, whatever you want to call it.
AK:
I needed time to think. I don't know the precise moment where bing! but it was this continuous evolution of asking myself: So, what did I actually do? If I didn't do these things with him, then he's probably innocent, but I only know the things that I actually do know, about what I myself did. About what I actually said about him, it was not true. It was a mistake. But -- I don't know -- I don't know anything any more [this is what Amanda says, but I think it's a grammatical mistake for past tense: "I didn't know anything any more."] In fact, the thing that was important for me was to know whether I myself was there or not, and when I remembered that I wasn't, that was the important thing which I wanted to say, and also the fact that what I had said about him was a mistake.
FM:
And who did you talk with about this when you understood that it was a mistake?
AK:
I wrote, and then when I could, I talked to my mom, and to my lawyers.
FM:
And why didn't you ask your lawyers to tell the "Procura" or the pubblico ministero that it was a mistake?
AK:
I told them about it, because I gave everything legal to them. I didn't think of taking further legal steps by myself. My way of sending out into the world the things that I knew went through my lawyers. So I confided in them and gave them all the information that I could to help them. First I had tried doing that with the police, but they had put me in prison and didn't trust me any more. So I talked to my lawyers and people who believed me.
FM:
Okay. You spoke many times, yesterday and today, of a state of confusion.
AK:
Certainly.
FM:
And of imagination.
AK:
Certainly.
FM:
What do these words mean to you: state of confusion, and imagination?
AK:
The sense I had at that moment, when I was trying to remember things that I didn't remember--
FM:
I'm not talking about that moment. I am asking you in general. In general, for you, what is a "state of confusion" and what is "imagination"?
AK:
According to me, it depends on the situation. I can only talk about my own experience, which was, that I had to, forced myself -- because they told me that I had to remember something else -- to recall something else, so I forced myself so hard, that I was trying to imagine the reality that I had apparently forgotten, and I got confused as to whether the things I had imagined were really memories or just imagination. Because they were fragmentary. They were just images of things I had seen in my life, for example Piazza Grimana, that I saw every day, Patrick, whom I saw almost every day. These things, which were fragmented, I didn't know if they belonged to that evening, to that sequence of events, or that line of reasoning. I didn't know, and not knowing what was reality and what was my imagination, this was the state of confusion.
GCM:
[stopping her again] Okay. Go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
But have you had other moments in your life in which you were in a state of confusion like this?
AK:
No.
FM:
So you've had only this experience.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
So this mechanism of the imagination, you only lived through it in this experience.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
And so, only in this experience did you separate and then mix up reality with imagination and fantasy.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
You also mentioned frustration yesterday.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
For your interrogation by the pubblico ministero and by the police.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
What does frustration mean to you?
AK:
I was frustrated because I felt that even if I was giving, it wasn't being received. For instance, I felt that I was giving and giving, but they always wanted something -- always more, and they didn't want to listen to me. They asked me something and I answered, it was never enough, never the thing that they wanted to hear. So I was frustrated. I didn't know how to answer any more, because I had already said, repeated, repeated--
GCM:
[stopping her for a third time] Okay, okay, we understood. Thank you. Go ahead.
FM:
You say that you met Raffaele Sollecito on October 25.
AK:
Yes, at that concert.
FM:
Okay. Six days before the murder of Mez.
AK:
Okay.
FM:
When did you first have sexual relations with Sollecito?
AK:
On the first day.
FM:
On the night of the 25th?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
And when did you move into his house?
AK:
I didn't move to Raffaele's house. I spent a lot of time with him, yes.
FM:
But yesterday you said that you cooked so many times in that house.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
That is correct?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
In those six days, how many times did you cook?
AK:
I can't say exactly, but we made either lunch or dinner almost every day in his house.
FM:
Did Mez ever meet Sollecito in those days?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
Where? and when?
AK:
When he came to my place, for example. If Meredith was there, they talked a bit. Laura and Filomena also met him.
FM:
And in those six days, how many times did he come over to your place, if you remember?
AK:
Hmmmm....
FM:
Every day?
AK:
No...umm...
FM:
One day yes, another day not...
Three days? I'm not sure how many days. }}
FM:
What drugs did you and Sollecito use?
AK:
Sometimes we smoked a joint.
FM:
On Nov 1, you testified that you smoked a joint, in the afternoon.
AK:
Afternoon-evening, yes.
FM:
Afternoon or evening?
AK:
Evening. Yes.
FM:
After your arrival at the house in via della Pergola, did you bring other men into the house?
AK:
Brought other men?
FM:
Before meeting Raffaele Sollecito?
GCM:
What was the question? I didn't hear it.
FM:
I asked Amanda Knox if she brought other men, other boys to her house after her arrival in via della Pergola, before meeting Raffaele Sollecito on October 25.
AK:
So, I had two friends. One of them was Juve, who worked with me at Patrick's, and Juve would sometimes come to the house, bringing me home after work, or even after school. He also accompanied me a few times. Then, once, there was Spiros, who wanted to hear me play the guitar. I told him that I couldn't take Laura's guitar out of the house, so I invited him over. Then there was the time, after Rezzon [the disco] who was called Daniele, and.... that's it. For boys. There was a girl I invited once to play guitar. And there were the boys from downstairs who used to come up.
FM:
In that period, did you have other, I don't know if this is the right term, lovers [fidanzati] or "boyfriends" [English] as you would say, before Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
I wouldn't say lovers [fidanzati], but there are people I went out with, for example. I went out with a boy, a barman, who had a bar that I went to a lot, and I often talked to him. We used to joke. So, he asked me over to his place to see a film, and eat a pizza, which I did. Then, there was this Daniele with whom I had an experience, after Rezzon. Yes.
FM:
Okay. I would like you to explain, with a little precise chronology, your movements on the morning of November 2nd. Do you remember more or less at what time you arrived in the house in via della Pergola coming away from Raffaele's place?
AK:
[Sigh] Okay. I left Raffaele's place around 10:30. I walked to my house, and then I walked. I don't know how long it takes, but not a long time, to get to my house. Then I went in. When I saw that the door was open, I called out "Is anybody home?" but nobody answered, so I thought "Okay", and I left the door open in case anybody was about to get back. The first thing I did was, I went into my room and undressed, and then I went into the bathroom, took out my earrings, and washed my ears...
FM:
So this was around 11:00 more or less, maybe?
AK:
More or less, maybe.
FM:
Okay.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
You undressed in your own room? As you just said?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
You also took off your shoes in your own room?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
And you went barefoot into the bathroom?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
Go on.
AK:
Okay. I can't remember if I brushed my teeth before or after taking a shower. I think...before...I don't remember. I did brush my teeth, but I don't know if it was before or after the shower. Anyway, I got into the shower, took the shower, and then, getting out of the shower, I used the bathmat to kind of hop over to my room, because I had forgotten my towel. Then I took my towel, returned to the bathroom, dried myself and put my earrings back in. Then I went into my room, got some clothes and dressed.
FM:
Can I stop you?
AK:
Yes, yes.
FM:
In the bathroom, did you use the bidet? or just the shower.
AK:
This time, I did not use the bidet.
FM:
Did you use the sink?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
And you cleaned your ears?
AK:
Yes. I cleaned my ears and brushed my teeth.
GCM:
Cleaned your ears, what does that mean? Did you use cotton swabs to clean your ears?
FM:
That was just my question.
GCM:
Oh, it was that?
FM:
Yes, yes, no, please go ahead, Presidente. You forestalled my question.
GCM:
Did you use cotton swabs to clean your ears? Or did you just wash them with water?
AK:
Yes...I think I did. I don't remember specifically, but I usually used cotton swabs to clean my ears.
GCM:
Where were they? Do you remember?
AK:
They were...there was this thing...
GCM:
A box? A shelf?
AK:
"Shelf?" [English, the interpreter gives her the word.] Usually they were there, but I don't specifically remember whether they were on the sink or on this shelf.
GCM:
But you used them? I didn't understand.
AK:
I don't specifically remember, but I usually did use them.
FM:
Did you turn on the light to take a shower, or not?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
Yesterday, you said you saw the drops of blood in the sink, in the bidet.
AK:
I didn't see them in the bidet.
FM:
I'm sorry. Okay. In the sink. And on the bathmat, right?
AK:
Yes, but after I got out of the shower.
FM:
When you used it to get back to your room?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
All right. On the bathmat, you saw drops like on the sink, or...
AK:
No, it was a larger stain.
FM:
A larger stain. Did it look like a footprint to you?
AK:
No. I just saw a stain.
FM:
How much more time did you spend in the house? After the shower and getting dressed?
AK:
The time to get dressed and dry my hair, and to take the mop. And then I left.
FM:
Okay. So, maybe another half an hour?
AK:
I don't think as much as half an hour. It doesn't take me long to dry my hair because it's very fine, so it gets dry very fast.
FM:
Okay. Then you went back to Sollecito's house.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
It was more or less what time?
AK:
I couldn't say exactly.
FM:
You never looked at the time on your cell phone?
AK:
It wasn't important to me to know the time, so I didn't look. I didn't look at the time very often, especially right then, when I didn't have any particular place to go, like to class. I just wanted to go to Gubbio with Raffaele.
FM:
Okay. And when did you decide to return with Raffaele to your house?
AK:
He was in the bathroom, I think, when I got back. So I took the mop and quickly cleaned up what was on the floor. Then while we were preparing a little coffee, I told him about the things I had seen. And while we were eating biscuits, I think, he said to me "You should call your roommates." So first I called Meredith, then Filomena, and Filomena explained to me that Laura was in Rome, and that I should go, or rather I should have gone to see how things were. So I said "Fine, I'll finish breakfast," which took a couple of minutes, and I left with Raffaele.
FM:
So the idea of returning to the house to check your friends' things, was given to you by Sollecito if I understood correctly.
AK:
He...
FM:
He invited you to clarify matters by telephoning?
AK:
I asked him advice about what to do, because I didn't know what to think. He said "Call your roommates to see if they know anything, if anything happened to them."
FM:
And then you went back to the house.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
Together.
AK:
Yes.
FM:
And what happened then?
AK:
So, we looked around a little bit, and when I saw that the window was broken, I became even more worried. So we looked through the rooms to see if anything was missing. That's when I tried Meredith's door and couldn't open it. I was worried. Then, leaving Raffaele in the house, I went running downstairs and knocked on the boys' door, but they didn't answer. I ran back upstairs and said, "What should we do now? I'll call Filomena, and...
FM:
Let me interrupt you just one second. You knew that the boys downstairs weren't home?
AK:
I didn't know.
FM:
You didn't know?
AK:
No.
FM:
Then why, in your interrogation of...we'll look at them together in a couple of minutes...do you assert that you went to say hi to them one week earlier? Do you remember that?
AK:
I remember, I don't know exactly when, but I remember that they were supposed to go somewhere.
CDV:
I object: is that the interrogation of Nov 3?
GCM or FM:
You can't make an objection about information [legal term I don't really understand.] We oppose this. [Long pause.]
FM:
Can I continue?
GCM:
In the interrogation of the 17th, because against herself--it can't be used.
FM:
No no no, the interrogation of November 3rd--can I continue?
GCM:
Yes. November 3rd?
FM:
Miss Knox was heard on the subject of going to say hi to the boys: "The last time I was in the boys' house, it was about a week ago, to say hi."
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato. This was then confirmed in the interrogation by the--because otherwise, well.
FM:
It was confirmed in the interrogation before the pubblico ministero. If I'm not mistaken. However, it doesn't matter.
AK:
Yes, I -- can I answer?
GCM:
If it was confirmed there, it cannot be used--
FM:
[speaking at the same time] I am referring to the passage--
GCM:
--against the accused. In this sense. Please go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
Let's talk about the policeman that we heard, a witness from the Postal Police. If you remember the episode where he asked you about the telephone of Romanelli, and you told him it was Meredith's telephone. Is this true? Do you remember?
AK:
I didn't understand.
FM:
When the two agents from the Postal Police came, they had this cell phone...
AK:
Okay, those.
FM:
Do you remember?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
Did they ask you for the telephone numbers of your friends?
AK:
Yes, they asked me for the telephone numbers of the girls who lived in the house, I think. So I gave them my number and the girls' numbers, yes.
FM:
You also gave them Meredith's number?
AK:
I think so.
FM:
Right. But on the statement from November 6th, the one from 1:45 that we are allowed to use... [Interruption] What? The question is this. I'll give you specific questions and you answer them.
AK:
Okay.
FM:
Did you meet Patrick Lumumba in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana on the evening of the 1st?
AK:
No.
FM:
The fact that it is in your statement here, was that meeting specifically suggested to you, or did you imagine it?
GCM:
Excuse me, please. Yes?
CDV:
Where is this in the statement?
FM:
In the last line of the usable declaration from 1:45. "I met Patrick immediately afterwards in the basketball court of Piazza Grimana."
CDV:
This interrogation has been disallowed except for the slander case. It seems to me that it is the Kercher's defense lawyer who is asking the question. FM: Yes.
CDV:
So, we oppose this. Because all of this was reconfirmed in the following one.
AK:
So, should I answer?
GCM:
In what following?
CDV:
The 5:45 one.
FM:
[simultaneously] The 5:45 one. Yes.
AK:
So, should I answer?
GCM:
We cannot use the following one. But if there is a reference...
FM:
I have specific questions, and if I can ask them, I will, otherwise I will stop. Let the Presidente decide.
GCM:
Yes. Let's hear the objection.
CDV:
The objection is relative to the use of these documents. No objection to the specific questions. But about using these documents which are inadmissible, or limited only to the slander charge, we oppose this.
GCM:
All right--
FM:
Presidente--
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato. So these documents were used in the slander case and limited to that?
CDV:
Yes.
GCM:
Then it seems to me that the Kercher family's defense has already--there has been an objection.
FM:
All right, I will ask a specific question.
GCM:
Please go ahead. But if we could turn to other circumstances.
FM:
I will ask it, and we will see if the Presidente admits it or not. About the succession of moments that you describe in this statement, were they all suggested, like the final one, by the police, and then imagined by you, or are there some that have a different origin? This was my question.
GCM:
Yes, sorry. But the accused has already answered exactly this question. If there are other questions...so as to avoid going over things that were already illustrated...
FM:
You underwent pressure, as you said, from the police who were asking you for information. Was that also true in your interrogations of the 2nd, the 3rd and the 4th, or only for the one from the 6th?
AK:
The police repeated their questions and wanted, above all, for me to tell them who could have done this, but I didn't know how to respond. I told them about all the people that I knew. The most intense pressure was in the Questura between Nov 5 and 6, because I never lived through anything like that. Before that, they would ask me and then say "Okay, fine." They wouldn't say, for example, "Maybe you don't remember well" or "Maybe you're a liar", for example. The didn't say those things.
GCM:
So, there was a difference. All right. Go ahead.
FM:
So the other statements were made in a more natural, a lighter way.
AK:
Lighter, yes. But still always repeating.
FM:
Who was present, the same policemen or different ones?
AK:
There were so many policemen...
FM:
When you say "so many", what do you mean? Five, ten, fifteen, twenty?
AK:
Well...
FM:
For you, "so many" means how many?
AK:
In the sense that I didn't recognize the policemen from one time to another. There were some who were always there, for example, like the person who led the interrogation on the 5th. That was a person who was already there the first days that I was there. But in the sense that one person said they were from Rome, one was from Perugia, one from Cabria that was going to arrive, so it was difficult to know them all.
FM:
But "all" of them was how many, more or less?
AK:
When?
GCM:
At the different times.
FM:
At the different times: the 2nd, the 3rd, the 5th....the 4th.
AK:
On the 2nd there were so many witnesses, and so many policemen also. Other times there were less because there were also less people.
FM:
But standing around you, interrogating you.
GCM:
Can you say if there were five or ten? Just as an indication?
AK:
For example, five...well, sometimes there was just this one woman, then there would be five, then there would be ten, then --
GCM:
Okay. Okay. Go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
So you don't remember how many there were?
GCM:
Yes, yes. Sorry, avvocato--
AK:
[at the same time, loudly] One, three, five, it depended on the situation!
GCM:
"-- we don't need to go back over it. Excuse me. There.
FM:
Do you remember talking on November 10 with your mother in prison, about the declarations of Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
If you could tell me which -- yes, of course I remember talking to my mother when I arrived in prison, yes.
GCM:
But the specific reference to--
AK:
To which date?
GCM:
No, to Raffaele Sollecito.
AK:
To Raffaele Solle--I-- it was a long time ago, and the fact that my mother came twice a week makes it hard to distinguish the different dates. But I remember--
FM:
Yes, but the question is specific. Did you talk with your mother about the declarations that Sollecito made in the Questura?
AK:
I remember telling her that I felt bad, I was astonished by those declarations.
FM:
Why?
AK:
Because I didn't understand why he had to do it.
FM:
To do what?
AK:
Say something else.
FM:
Other than what?
AK:
Other than what really happened.
FM:
Do you remember signing your notification of arrest that was served to you?
AK:
When I was in the Questura, I signed so many things just to get it over with and go home. I signed so many things. And the arrest...I know they talked to me about arrest, but I didn't understand everything that was happening, I was shocked and deeply impressed by the whole situation, so I signed so many things and--
GCM:
[stopping her] Okay. Go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
But do you remember if this document, this act was translated into English?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
[simultaneously] Had been translated into English?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
You don't remember. Do you remember if when they translated it to you, they explained to you why you were being held?
AK:
I remember understanding that it was some bureaucratic issue. I didn't sufficiently understand the specific situation, but at the same time, I was extremely tired, exhausted, stressed, and I didn't understand anything any more. So that fact is that everything they explained to me at that point, everything seemed the same to me, total confusion. I just didn't understand.
FM:
Let's return to via della Pergola. I'm almost finished. When you returned to the house in via della Pergola with Sollecito, and noticed the window that was broken, did you check in your own room if anything was missing?
AK:
Just like that. I saw that my computer was there...
FM:
But yesterday you said that you had money.
AK:
Yes, I had some money.
FM:
Did you check the money?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
You don't remember. So you can't tell us if the money was stolen or not?
AK:
I honestly can't tell you. I can't remember whether or not I took a look in the little drawer. The thing I remember is that my computer was there, so I thought "Oh, if they haven't taken the computer," because it's a good quality portable computer, so I would have thought it would be the first thing a person would take from my room. And it was right there near the door, on the table.
FM:
In your room in via della Pergola, was there a central light?
AK:
There was one but it didn't work, so I used the little bedside lamp.
FM:
The lamp.
AK:
The little lamp, yes.
FM:
And you previously stated that you didn't look for the lamp either; you only looked for your computer when you went into your room. You didn't look for your money, you didn't look for your lamp.
AK:
So, I saw the window only the second time that I entered the house. The first time I went into the house I didn't even think of looking to see if anything was missing, because I saw going into the living room, it really looked like someone had just gone out of the house, everything was in order, just as I had left it. But the second time, I didn't even think of looking for the lamp: the computer was the important thing for me. All my documents were in it.
FM:
But the first time, when you took your shower and then you returned to your room, first you undressed and then you dressed, all this, you did it without any light?
AK:
It was the middle of the morning, there was already light.
FM:
Did you open your shutters or were they already open?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
To get to your room, to get to the window, you walked in the dark?
AK:
But it wasn't dark in my room. Often --
FM:
I don't know, I wasn't there.
AK:
All right. Usually I only turned on that little lamp at night. Really at night, or in the evening, when I wanted to...So I didn't even think of turning it on. It really wasn't dark in my room when I went in.
GCM:
It wasn't dark, but where was the light coming from? Natural light?
AK:
Natural.
GCM:
And what window was it coming from, this natural light?
AK:
I only have one window, but it was also coming from the other side because there's a balcony.
GCM:
And the door of the bathroom? Meredith's door was closed so no natural light was coming from there. Outside, there's the little corridor, the living room, Romanelli's door, and Laura Mezzetti's door. Which were the doors that let in light?
AK:
The door of the balcony on the other side of the corridor, which lets in light, and then there was the window.
GCM:
So, from the balcony, the corridor, the light actually reached your room?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
That was the light that you had.
FM:
You mentioned to your friends in the Questura that according to you, Meredith died slowly.
AK:
They said...
FM:
How did you come to say that?
AK:
I heard that her throat was cut, and from what I saw in CSI [Crime Scene Investigation] of these things, these things are neither quick nor pleasant. So when they said "We hope she died quickly," like I don't know, in some other way, I said "But what are you saying, her throat was cut, good Lord, bleargh." I had remained at that point, that brutality, this death that was really blechh, that made a horrible impression. That was what really struck me, that fact of having your throat cut. It seemed so gross, and I imagined that it was a very slow and terrifying death. So when they said "We hope it was like this," I said "No, I think it was really gross, disgusting."
FM:
And do you know if, when Meredith was murdered, she screamed or shrieked?
AK:
I don't know.
FM:
Did someone tell you?
AK:
Tell me? No, uh, no. No, I didn't know if she screamed or not.
FM:
Did you talk about it with someone immediately after?
FM:
Did you talk about it with someone immediately after, when you were there at the house, about whether she screamed or shrieked?
AK:
Not about that, no.
FM:
And did the police talk to you about the scream or not, when they interrogated you on the 2nd, the 3rd or the 4th. Did they talk to you about the fact that she screamed?
AK:
I don't remember.
FM:
Why did you say yesterday that they did? If I'm not mistaken.
GCM:
Not on the 4th.
AK:
The 2nd, 3rd and 4th.....On the 5th and 6th, they asked me if I heard the scream.
FM:
So on the 5th and the 6th, the police told you that she screamed.
AK:
They asked me if I had heard her scream. I said no. They said, but how is it possible that you didn't hear her scream, if she was killed so near you? I said, "I don't know, maybe I had my ears covered."
GCM:
Okay. Yes, yes. Now we'll return to...
FM:
Okay.
GCM:
Excuse me. Go ahead.
FM:
On November 4, at 3:24 in the morning, you wrote a very long e-mail to 25 people. Okay?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
All right, but why did you write it at 3 in the morning, after having been in the Questura, where you said you were very tired, nervous, stressed and so forth. I mean, how did you come to write such a long e-mail instead of going to bed. This is the question.
AK:
Precisely because I was stressed and felt exhausted because of the police, I had to somehow let off steam, because the whole situation was so heavy that I couldn't even sleep. So I needed to write. I needed to let off steam by writing, especially to the people who were worrying about me. So I addressed it to all the people whose e-mail addresses I had in my e-mail. I wrote down everything and sent it to them. Then I felt better.
FM:
I see. A last question, about the text message of Patrick Lumumba. Because you answered in various ways. I would like to know if, when you received the message, you were eating dinner in the house with Sollecito, or had you already eaten--
AK:
We hadn't eaten yet.
FM:
--or were you going to eat? Because this morning you said that it was later, that you ate dinner later and the message arrived first. Is that how it was? Whereas yesterday, you said that you were eating.
AK:
No. I never said that we were eating when the message arrived.
CDV?:
We don't have the transcriptions from yesterday--
FM:
The question is--
GCM?:
--but the accused is here, and can say at any time...there. Sorry. So your question was--
FM:
The question is--
GCM:
Please go ahead. But without making any reference to yesterday's testimony, because unfortunately we don't have the elements.
FM:
With respect to Lumumba's message. What time was it in the evening? It was 20:18.
AK:
I think, I don't know if we hadn't yet started to watch the movie or we had only just started to watch the movie, and then I realized that there was a message.
FM:
Okay.
GCM:
So, you weren't eating.
AK:
No, no. Dinner was later.
GCM:
So the message corresponds to the moment where you started the movie...whose title you gave yesterday, no?
FM:
Do you remember, on the 17th of November, having spoken with your mother about the knife?
AK:
I talked with my mother about everything, so...
FM:
Yes?
AK:
Yes.
FM:
You told your mother that you were very worried.
AK:
I didn't understand why there would be Meredith's blood on a knife that was found in Raffaele's house. Because [tense laugh] for me that was impossible.
GCM:
Excuse me, but with respect to the knife, which knife did they talk about? I saw that it remained a little general.
FM:
Because she-- oh, no, sorry, Presidente.
GCM:
Yes? Which knife did they talk about?
AK:
We were talking about a knife that had Meredith's blood...on this knife. And for me, I couldn't understand it because it was impossible.
GCM:
So, with reference to that knife. Please go ahead, avvocato.
FM:
Why did you say to your mother "I'm worried because there is a knife of Raffaele's."
AK:
Well, I was worried because to me that was impossible. I didn't understand how that could be.
[Quite a long silence as we hear Maresca flipping papers.]
FM:
I don't know if I have any more questions, Presidente.
GCM:
Yes, yes, go ahead, avvocato.
[More silence pause, more sound of papers.]
FM:
No, I don't have any more. I'm finished, Presidente. Thank you.
GCM:
Please, Sollecito's defense. The other civil plaintiffs have no more questions.
??:
To conclude the examination, I would like to simply--
GCM:
We need to wait before concluding the examination.
??:
I'm sorry, I hadn't seen the lawyer.
GB:
I am avvocato Giulia Bongiorno. [She has a sharp, snappy voice.]
AK:
Hello [Amanda actually says "Buongiorno"]
GB:
Miss Knox, you are accused together with Raffaele Sollecito of murdering Meredith together with Rudy Guede. I would like you to tell me exactly what kind of relations you had with Rudy Guede. You already said that you saw each other few times, but I would like to ask for more information about this aspect.
AK:
I didn't have any relations with Rudy Guede. I knew him in the sense that someone said "Look, this is Rudy, this is Amanda." I saw him around a few times. But I didn't have any relations with him.
GB:
Can you tell me if you frequented each other, if you went out together? Because you said that once you saw him at a party.
AK:
Yes, he came into my bar once, for example, but there was always this fact that I had to work there, he came in, I don't think I even gave him a drink, because -- I don't remember the situation that well, but I think he came in and then went out. I don't remember. But really, I didn't know him at all.
GB:
Did you exchange telephone numbers? Did you call each other?
AK:
No.
GB:
Listen. A witness came here, whose name was Kokomani.
AK:
[Tiny snigger]
GB:
Kokomani told us about an episode. I want to know if you remember this episode, which apparently occurred at the end of October. Before Meredith's death, obviously. According to this episode, you were together with Raffaele Sollecito, then Rudy Guede approached, and according to the testimony, Kokomani was driving in a car, you were with Raffaele in the middle of the street, Kokomani illuminated you and at that point you took a big knife and turned it on Kokomani. I'm not giving you the complete description, I am just asking you if it happened, what happened, what you know about this event.
AK:
It's totally false. He totally imagined it.
GB:
Kokomani says you have very broad front teeth.
AK:
Look for yourself.
GB:
Kokomani says you have an uncle who came from America, and that in some summer month, he said August but didn't fix a date, anyway around that period, your American uncle was in a bar. Kokomani sat down next to him, and you and Raffaele, in that period of summer, passed by and said hello to him. Do you recall this episode?
AK:
It's impossible. I was in the United States and then, no one from my family either speaks Italian or ever came to Perugia. Before, I came here with my sister, on September 1st, and then nothing happened before I came to stay.
GB:
But does this American uncle who came here, that Kokomani knows, exist?
AK:
No.
GB:
Yesterday, you described your relationship with Raffaele, Raffaele Sollecito. Is Raffaele a violent person?
AK:
No. The exact opposite.
GB:
Did you go to the apartment below yours with the police and did you see blood there?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
I would need a clarification about this. The apartment below means the apartment where the boys lived?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
When you went down and saw the blood, how much blood was there?
AK:
Well, entering their apartment, on the right, the corridor curves, and there's this room. And there was this cover which was all rolled up and there was a little bit of blood on this cover.
GB:
What was it, an eiderdown, a quilt [piumone]?
AK:
What is "piumone"? [Interpreter: "a quilt"]
GB:
Yes, it was a kind of quilt, yes.
AK:
A kind of quilt.
GB:
And you went down there together with the police?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
Did the police ask you to go down there?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
How were you dressed when you went down?
AK:
Still with same...you know, I don't remember.
GB:
Were you wearing that suit that we saw that the police was wearing? With the shoe covers, the gloves?
AK:
No, no, I was still wearing my own clothes. They gave me those -- things that you put on your shoes.
GB:
The shoe covers. And gloves?
AK:
They gave me gloves when I went upstairs to look through the knives.
GB:
Yes, but excuse me. The day you went downstairs with the police and entered into the apartment downstairs, you went in together with the police and you didn't have gloves?
AK:
No, I didn't have gloves.
GB:
Did you see, during all these police operations every time you went there -- but in the end, how many times did you go to the house? The day of the 2nd, of the finding, and on the 4th?
AK:
Mhm.
GB:
On those occasions, did you see whether the police all had on these shoe-covers, gloves, suits all the time?
AK:
I saw that the people I was with had things on their feet. I don't know if they all had gloves.
GB:
Listen, it has been asked by the lawyer for the civil plaintiff if you had ever before experienced strange episodes with your imagination, or superimposing of memories. So, I wanted to complete that. Has it ever happened in your life before this to be interrogated with the methods that you have described?
AK:
Absolutely not.
GB:
So you connect this episode of your imagination with those methods?
AK:
Certainly.
GB:
When you refer to the fact that this famous interpreter told you an episode about her personal life, to solicit a memory from you, I wanted to understand: this interpreter, was she an interpreter that was speaking aloud and everyone was listening, or was it between just the two of you? And in what language did all this happen?
AK:
Oh no, it was really just between the two of us. She was right here, and she was really talking right into my ear the whole time, saying "Come on, stop it," because I was saying the truth because I wanted to go home, "come on, maybe you just don't remember", it was like this the whole time. It wasn't like she was translating what I saw saying to them. Well yes, she also did that, but she was talking in my ear the whole time.
GB:
So, it is correct to say that during the interrogation, this interpreter was having a conversation with you that could not be heard by third parties.
AK:
Yes.
GB:
You saw -- you were shown the written statement, and underneath it there is a signature. This statement which was written on a computer, was it written at your dictation? Did you dictate the words that were written in the statement?
AK:
No. They wrote; they asked me: "Okay, what do you imagine?" And I said "Maybe I imagine this," and they said "Okay, let's write this, and then you tell us if it's all right or not. So they were writing, saying "Okay, you met Patrick at Piazza Grimana, for example, you saw this, you covered your ears." "Okay, fine, fine."
GB:
Okay. But when they made you sign the statement, you didn't explicitly ask to reread it or to change anything?
AK:
They gave it to me to read, but...well, I did like this and then I just signed.
GB:
Did you ever have any judicial experiences when you were in America?
AK:
Absolutely not.
GB:
From the telephone call we heard about yesterday, you had a friend who was consulting a lawyer. You never thought in those days, seeing that you were constantly called to the Questura, about calling a lawyer?
AK:
No, but this...Filomena consulted a lawyer about the house, about the rent and about finding another place. I never thought that I might need a lawyer. Because in the end, I knew what I knew, I didn't know anything else, so the thought of finding a lawyer didn't even occur to me.
GB:
When you went to via della Pergola on the 4th, to examine the knives, and when you became very disturbed and all that, with how many people -- how many people were present?
AK:
So, I arrived with an interpreter and two policemen, and then there were at least, at the very least, five, but I think even more, who were already in the house, because there were so many people in the corridor, in the other room, and in the other rooms, so--
GB:
But these people were moving around inside the house?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
When you, on the morning of the finding of the body, when before that you went to take a shower, you said: "I got out of the shower and didn't have any shoes, so I jumped on the bathmat."
AK:
Yes.
GB:
This bathmat that we're talking about is the bathmat that you saw projected here in court in a video?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
Do you remember how you slid with the bathmat? When you took it from the bathroom to your room, did you have both bare feet on it or just one foot.
AK:
Sometimes I...heh heh...by mistake, I put my foot on the floor like this, but I tried -- I slid along trying to kind of make little jumps with the bathmat, but I didn't quite succeed.
GB:
But it can be said that you were pressing on the bathmat with your foot?
AK:
Yes.
GB:
At the famous party downstairs where Rudy participated, you have already explained that Raffaele Sollecito wasn't there, because it happened before.
AK:
Certainly.
GB:
Did Raffaele Sollecito know Rudy Guede?
AK:
No.
GB:
One witness, Gioffredi, has declared having seen four people one afternoon, Meredith, Raffaele Sollecito, Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede together, coming out of via della Pergola. Do you recall this episode? Is it true?
AK:
It's impossible.
GB:
Thank you. I am finished.
LM:
Just a couple of details. Luca Maori, Raffaele Sollecito's defense. Referring to the moment in which you found yourselves, you and Raffaele, in front of the house in via della Pergola, at the moment in which you discovered that there were some problems, and then Raffaele called his sister. Did you hear Raffaele's telephone conversation with his sister?
AK:
No, they were talking between themselves on the telephone, and I was nearby, but I wasn't listening.
LM:
And do you know what Raffaele's sister advised him to do?
AK:
I didn't hear her words, but she advised him to call the police or -- as I understood it, to call the police.
LM:
Then, did you hear Raffaele's next telephone call, to the police or carabinieri? Did you hear it?
AK:
Yes, Raffaele called the police, yes. I was there, nearby.
LM:
Okay. What did Raffaele say? Do you remember?
AK:
Mm...it was in Italian.
LM:
Because you also intervened, saying something to Raffaele. Do you remember that?
AK:
Yes, because umm...Raffaele was talking about the fact that...the strange things when I came back to the house, at least, he was talking about these things, but in the end, I kind of had to let him talk, because I--he was really talking about...
LM:
Yes but Raffaele, during this telephone call, asked you for your telephone number and so forth?
AK:
Yes, indeed. He turned to me for clarifications, in the sense that well, also for the telephone number that he could get from me, I mean the police could get from me, because I was the resident of the house. I didn't really help, but I did give that phone number, yes.
LM:
So you can say that at the moment when Raffaele was speaking with his interlocutor, which was from the carabinieri, not the police, he asked you, Amanda, for the telephone number and the precise address?
AK:
Yes.
LM:
And you answered Raffaele?
AK:
Yes.
LM:
And Raffaele gave this information in his turn?
AK:
Yes.
LM:
Who was around then? Was anyone there?
AK:
No, we were still alone.
LM:
Nobody had arrived yet?
AK:
No.
LM:
Thank you.
[A pause.]
AK:
[very quietly] May I have a rest?
GCM:
A little rest, certainly.
AK:
Yes, thank you.
GCM:
Let's suspend proceedings for a while, and start again with the examination by the defense...
AK:
Just five minutes.
GCM:
Let's take ten minutes. [Noise] Yes, you're a little tired. Ten minutes. All right?
AK:
Yes, fine, thank you.
13:20 p.m. }}
GCM:
Pubblico ministero, yes?
GM:
Today a report arrived, transmitted by the SCO, a report from the FBI on the episode that was the object of the journalistic article we discussed.
GCM:
We will place it at the disposal of the parties. We may now proceed with the examination of the accused who remains ready to answer, she is already seated in her place. Please, the defense lawyer who asked to examine in order to conclude it. Please try to avoid useless repetitions.
CP:
I am the lawyer Carlo Pacelli, Patrick's defense.
AK:
Hello.
CP:
Signorina Amanda, hello. I simply want a few clarifications.
AK:
Certainly.
CP:
Did you by any chance know Rudy on September 1, 2007?
AK:
No.
CP:
On November 1, did you meet Rudy at the basketball court?
AK:
No.
CP:
Did Rudy ever provide you with joints?
AK:
No.
CP:
Listen, signorina Amanda, I will now put to you some questions about your statement of November 6th, 2007.
AK:
Okay.
CP:
The one that you made to the pubblico ministero, on the circumstances which were not included in the statement of 1:45.
AK:
Okay.
CP:
Before Meredith was killed, did you hear thuds?
AK:
No.
CP:
Then why in your statement of Nov 6, the one of 5:45, made to the pubblico ministero, did you declare that you heard thuds.
AK:
It was always following this thing where they wanted to understand--
CP:
They, who they? Sorry, but could you give names or titles? You were giving your statement to the PM.
AK:
The PM and the policemen who were there. But when I made that declaration, also the PM was one of the people who said to me, "So, you did this, you followed this person, you heard this, but why?" That's how it was.
CP:
So it was the pubblico ministero who put the words "I heard thuds" into your mouth?
AK:
He wanted to know how come I hadn't --
CP:
I asked you a question.
GCM:
She's answering, she's answering. Go ahead, go ahead.
AK:
He wanted to know why I hadn't heard Meredith. I was confused, and I was trying to imagine things that I had supposedly forgotten.
CP:
She is going back to what she already said about this. It's useless to go back over it--
CP:
But signor Presidente, the circumstances need to be clarified. I need to clarify them.
GCM:
Yes, but, excuse me, avvocato, but let's not go back to--
CP:
[simultaneously] No, no, I'm not going back. No, no, no.
GCM:
--to the methods, to the situation, because otherwise we'll just be repeating--
CP:
No, but one remained-- No no no, but this question has not been posed as a question of circumstances.
GCM:
But she already explained the situation. Go ahead.
CP:
She won't answer me, Presidente. Ahh. You said that you had good relations with Patrick.
AK:
Yes.
CP:
Then why, in your statement of Nov 6 2007 at 5:45, did you say you were very frightened of Patrick.
AK:
Because, imagining him as being capable of murdering someone, at that moment I was scared.
CP:
Did someone suggest this to you? The PM?
AK:
They asked me what Patrick was like? Was he violent? I said no, he's not violent. But are you scared of him? And I said yes, because thinking that he was the person who killed her, I was scared. Also because in those days I was thinking generally that there was a murderer, and I was frightened.
CP:
Why didn't you say this to the police in the statement of 1:45?
AK:
Say what?
CP:
That you were afraid of Patrick.
AK:
Because they hadn't asked me yet.
CP:
Listen, in the statement of Nov 6 at 5:45, you declared to the police that you met Patrick in the morning of Nov 5, in front of the Universita per Stranieri.
AK:
Yes.
CP:
My question is the following: was this also suggested to you by the pubblico ministero?
AK:
They asked me when was the last time I had seen Patrick, so I told them it was on that morning.
CP:
And this true circumstance served to strengthen the accusation against Patrick?
GCM:
Excuse me, let's avoid analysis and simply ask about circumstances of fact.
CP:
A clarification about the scream. If I understood correctly, you said a little while ago that it was the police etc. But at 5:45, in your statement of 5:45, you made this declaration in front of the pubblico ministero: "I heard Meredith scream." Textually: "Meredith scream". How could you know -- how could you know that Meredith screamed before she was killed if not even the police knew at that moment that Meredith had screamed.
AK:
I never said--
GCM or LG: [because Ghirga has stood up, apparently] Excuse me, excuse me! }} [Following exchange very loud and simultaneous]
CP:
Calm, avvocato Ghirga! I'm doing this examination in a calm way! I want to do this calmly.
GCM:
Avvocato, please, please!
CP:
E basta.
GCM:
But let's avoid repeating questions. On this--
CP:
On this, I was interrupted yesterday by dalla Vedova, and she didn't answer.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, avvocato. But she did already answer.
CP:
No, she didn't answer.
GCM:
She didn't answer now, but she did yesterday.
CP:
No. Yesterday she didn't answer either. I was interrupted by--
GCM:
Please, please, avvocato. [silence finally returns] There's no reason.
CP:
I'm sorry, Presidente.
GCM:
It seems to me that the defense lawyer is asking whether you, during your spontaneous declaration of Nov 6 at 5:45, you made reference to a scream of Meredith that you heard. The pubblico ministero asked how you could refer to this scream.
AK:
They asked me if I heard a scream from Meredith. I said no. They asked me "How could you not have heard her scream while she was killed?" I don't know why they asked me that, but I answered that I hadn't, and they said "How could that be?" and I said "Maybe my ears were covered." And that's it.
GCM:
Okay, okay. But the perplexity of the defense lawyer is because a witness actually spoke of this scream.
AK:
Well, I would ask the police about that.
GCM:
Excuse me. Please avvocato, can we move on now?
CP:
Two more clarifications.
GCM:
Go ahead.
CP:
In your conversation with your mother of Nov 10, when you said you felt terrible for getting Patrick in prison --
AK:
Certo.
CP:
--etc., you say that you mentioned this circumstances uniquely to your lawyers. Now, did you tell them about this before the 10th, or after the 10th?
AK:
I told everything to my mom as soon as I could, all my feelings and everything.
CP:
Yes, but to your lawyers, did you say this before or after Nov 10?
AK:
I imagine before, but I don't know.
CP:
Do you remember when?
AK:
I don't know the dates. Everything I said, I said that it was impossible--
CP:
[cutting her off] Listen, listen. One last question.
AK:
Tell me.
CP:
When you gave your declaration to the examining tribunal, you confirmed the memorandum of Nov 6. Why didn't you exonerate Patrick?
AK:
I wrote in the memorandum that I was trying to express my doubts. So I was confirming the fact that I wrote those things to say that what I had said before was an error. Including what I had said about Patrick.
CP:
Listen, in your memorandum of November 6, you explicitly say -- you were writing in English?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
And you wrote it freely, yes?
AK:
Yes.
CP:
You say "I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick."
AK:
In my memorandum, I recognized the fact that I had made those declarations, but that I had a lot of doubts as to the facts that were in my declaration.
CP:
Do you know what the word "confirm" means in Italian?
AK:
I wrote in English.
CP:
Yes, but in English, I think the word "confirm" has the same meaning as Italian.
AK:
What I wanted to express was the fact that I recognized having made the declarations, and I recognized that at the moment when I made those declarations, I made them with good will, in the sense that I thought maybe it was something that could have happened and could have been true. Recognizing that, I started to write the memorandum.
CP:
But successively in this memorandum, you confirm "I see Patrick as the murderer."
AK:
I was IMAGINING Patrick as the murderer in my imagination, but in my memory, I could not know this.
CP:
Listen, two last -- very last questions. [Pause, sound of flipping pages.] Excuse me one moment. Well, I can't find them. But I'll just ask them orally. Now. Somebody, on the evening of Nov 1, in the house of horrors, via della Pergola, apparently recognized your voice. Do you remember who?
[Noise and objections in background]
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please, can you repeat the question?
CP:
I'll change it, then. I'll change it. I'll reformulate it like this.
GCM:
Can you repeat it, per carita?
CP:
I'll repeat it, I'll repeat it.
GCM:
Excuse me, please, go ahead. Excuse me, but please avoid comments. You may make objections but--excuse me, please. Go ahead.
CP:
Rudy asserts that he saw you in VIA DELLA PERGOLA-- [raising voice to speak over further objections]:
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me! Please, please!
CP:
Excuse ME. Can I ask my question? She'll answer that it isn't true. Like for the joints, like for everything.
GCM:
Excuse me, avvocato, first ask her, give her a chance to answer. Excuse me, avvocato. Go ahead.
CP:
Did Rudy recognize your voice? Did he see you flee the house at via della Pergola after the crime?
AK:
It is impossible.
CP:
Thank you, signor Presidente. I have no more questions.
[Background talking]
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me.
??:
Is he finished?
GCM:
He's finished, yes. But on this, still...Listen, do you know what Rudy has said?
AK:
Over the course of this investigation I have heard that he says certain things, but they are not true.
CDV:
Avvocato dalla Vedova.
GCM:
Yes. To exhaust the question. He already indicated that he finished the examination.
CDV:
I'll just quickly give some details, and I will try to be very brief. In relation with the phone call of Nov 17 2007, from a conversation in prison with your mother, I will read exactly the following text (page 6 and page 7), and then I will ask you questions.
AK:
Okay.
CDV:
I read on page 6 that you said in that conversation: "Yes, when I was in the room with him, I said something," between parentheses 'laughs', "and then when I went back into the room, I was crying. I was very, very worried about this thing with the knife, because there's a knife from Raffaele's..." First question: this was on November 17. What knife were you talking about, and how could you know about this knife at this date?
AK:
I heard for the first time about the knife from a police inspector while I was in prison. He showed me an internet article which said that there was blood on a knife that they had found in Raffaele's house. And I said that for me, I was worried because for me, that was just impossible. I didn't understand how such a thing could be.
CDV:
So, when you're talking about there being a knife from Raffaele's, you meant this knife that you had heard about in this way, from Raffaele's house.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Then right after, your mother says: "Here, here are the facts: we talked yesterday with the lawyer, and we asked him about the knife" -- maybe I'll skip this, because this part isn't relevant. Then you say: "It's crap, yes it's crap, total crap, a piece of crap, a total invention. That's what they're doing now. They're just lying." And later, page 8 of the transcript of the conversation, you say "It's all an invention." And you say: "It's stupid. I can't say anything other than the truth, because I know I was there. I can't lie about that. There's no reason to do it." When you said "I was there", what did you mean?
AK:
Raffaele's apartment.
CDV:
Which was the one you meant when you talked about the knife.
AK:
Certainly.
CDV:
I would now like to ask to show a photocopy of a document handwritten by the accused, which we obtained from the documents in the dossier. It is a half-page written in English [to someone else] (the dossier of the PM), and it is part of the green diary--
GCM:
It is already in the dossier.
CDV:
--which is already in the dossier.
GCM:
So the parties already know it.
CDV:
It is a document of which I would like to request the acquisition, and I would like to ask the accused to read and also to translate it; first to recognize it, and then to read it.
GCM:
This document, if you have it here, can you show it to all parties, so that they can all follow?
CDV:
Yes, certainly. Excuse me, I would have made copies, but--
GCM:
It is in the dossier.
CDV:
--I usually do it.
GCM:
It's the diary?
CDV:
It's number 415. It is in the dossier of the PM, not this one.
GCM:
But we have the diary.
CDV:
The famous one. But this is different. These are in little notebooks that were confiscated.
GCM:
So, be specific and if necessary we will acquire it.
CDV:
This is confiscated information, if I'm not mistaken, relative to documents that were in Knox's room, and there were three little notebooks, all of which have been translated. Part of them contain the homework that she was doing for her courses, and the rest is a personal diary which has been the object of analysis.
GCM:
The parties have now seen this page, this document, so maybe now we can show it to the accused.
CDV:
It is exact that this document has never been translated. So I wanted to ask Amanda, as a first question, if she recognizes this document as hers? It's a photocopy, but--
AK:
Yes, I wrote this in the Questura.
CDV:
Can you be more precise? Do you remember the date? The date, and the time at which you wrote this?
AK:
This is the second one, when I was...after I was interrogated, and while I was kind of waiting. I wanted to ...I had so much emotion and didn't know how to express it, so I started writing.
CDV:
But what day are we talking about?
AK:
The 2nd.
CDV:
November 2?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
Could you [formal]--could you [familiar] translate this into Italian, this letter?
AK:
Yes, I can try. So, "I'm at the Questura now, after a long day telling how I was the first person to go to the house, and find my roommate dead. How strange. The only thing I want to do now is to write a song about it. I would be the first song I ever wrote, and it would be about [at this point, Amanda starts getting increasing help from the interpreter] someone who died horribly and for no reason. How morbid is that? I'm starving. I keep wanting to say [little laugh] that I could kill for a pizza, but that doesn't seem right. Laura and Filomena are really really" -- how do you say this? fucked up--
Interpreter [almost inaudibly]: Are fucked up. Si sono fottute il cervello. }}
AK:
Okay. And also Raffaele --
CDV:
What? Laura and Filomena what?
Interpreter [still very softly]: Si sono fottute il cervello. }}
CDV:
Can you say it in the microphone? What did they do?
INT:
[still mumbling] It's an ugly word. Si sono fottute il cervello.
CDV:
[speaking over her, so he doesn't hear.] Please, go ahead. What is it?
Interpreter [still mumbling but now into the microphone, with a voice literally shaking with embarrassment]: Si sono fottute il cervello. }}
CDV:
[very loudly]: Si sono fottute il cervello.
Interpreter [louder, English words probably less embarrassing for her to pronounce] Fucked up. Really fucked up. }}
AK:
They're very--
INT:
--very agitated.
AK:
Yes. Raffaele also. I am angry. First I was scared. Then I was sad. Then I was confused. Then I was angry, and now I don't know. I can't [murmurs in English to interpreter: "I can't really wrap my mind". Interpreter helps her.] really wrap my mind around this. I didn't see her body. I didn't see her blood. It's almost as though it hadn't happened. But it did happen, in the room right next to mine. There was blood in the bathroom where I took a shower today. The door of the house was open to the wind and now I am without a house and forever, without a person who was a part of my life. And I don't know what to do or think.
CDV:
Perfect. I request the acquisition of this document for the dossier.
GCM:
All right. Do you have any other questions, avvocato?
CDV:
There is another document extracted from the same diary, I'll call it that. Also this one, if I could ask you to confirm it and to read it? And in between, I'll ask this question. When you were in the Questura, you were writing this?
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
What are they, notes? Notes to yourself, or a diary?
AK:
Yes, I write little bits of diary everywhere, and for me, always following this method of understanding and expressing my emotions, because at the moment when I wrote that, I didn't even know what I was feeling. There was a heaviness, and there were all these emotions together, so I needed to write.
CDV:
Because for you it was normal to write like this?
AK:
Certainly.
CDV:
Can I read it?
[A long pause, presumably some are looking at it.]
CDV:
Can I take advantage of this...since there's a reference to a song, it seems relevant. At one point in your prison diary, you refer to the words of another song, Let it Be, of the Beatles. What do these verses mean to you? At that moment in particular. We're talking about the time between the 8th and the 29th of December. So what is the significance of these words "Let it be" ?
AK:
For the first months that I was in prison, it was an essential song for me, because since I didn't know how to confront the situation, I was trying to think about home, and this song makes me think of home, because it's a song I used to sing with my friends, in front of my family, so I was thinking about me, how I used to be. At the same time, it is a song that talks about being in a dark moment, so it helped me to confront the situation. For months, I was alone, I was isolated, and when I went out, to walk for instance, I was there, and the only thing I could do was sing. I sang this song very often, to make me feel better.
CDV:
Perfect. Now about this document. Maybe I can read it myself, and ask you for confirmation.
AK:
That's fine.
CDV:
It's only four lines. On this page, I see a number 83, probably from the dossier, there's a little drawing and a sun. I'm also reading the mistakes in Italian. "My mom is arriving tomorrow. I'm very happy about that. I actually ate dinner with friends" or "I prepared it", I don't know). "Raffaele's friends. But now I'm very tired. I don't want to stay." Can I show you this document and ask for confirmation that it was written by you, and again ask you where and when?
AK:
So I wrote this--
CDV:
First, do you recognize your handwriting?
AK:
Yes, this is mine. I wrote it when I was at the Questura waiting for Raffaele. It was actually at the very beginning. I took this and started writing. Then the policemen...sorry, it was November 5, 2007.
CDV:
I request the acquisition of this document. Listen, in reference to the telephone calls you received on the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th, and the e-mail that you sent to 25 people on November 4, do you remember how many people called you on your cell phone? If this helps, I can tell you that from the 3rd to the 7th you had 64 calls counting the text messages. Do you remember this number more or less?
AK:
I remember that there were a lot.
[Short discussion in the background.]
CDV:
And then you wrote this e-mail to 25 people because they were...
AK:
So many people were worried about me.
[Short discussion in background about acquisition of document.]
CDV:
Getting to the morning of the 6th, because we wanted to explain what happened after the arrest. In particular I would like you to briefly tell us what happened in the morning, say from 8:30, until you were brought to prison. Briefly.
AK:
Ah. So, there was the fact that I had to eat something, so they brought me something to eat, but then at a certain point they took my shoes away, for example, so I was kind of barefoot, and then I had to wait until they could re-enter my house to bring me other shoes.
CDV:
But who were "they"?
AK:
The police. There were policemen who went to my house to bring me shoes that I had in my room, and also other clothes.
CDV:
What shoes were you wearing?
AK:
I was wearing Sketchers.
CDV:
Sketchers?
AK:
But they brought me my big hiking boots that I had in my room, to bring me to prison.
CDV:
So that morning, they went to your house to get your shoes, or you already had them?
AK:
No, they went from the Questura to my house and brought them back to me. On that morning.
CDV:
And also clothes?
AK:
Yes, also a skirt and...I remember the skirt and the hiking boots.
CDV:
This is a new element. But had you asked for these clothes and shoes?
AK:
I asked because I didn't have my shoes, "But where can I go without shoes?" And so they said "We'll go to your house to bring you shoes and then you can go to prison."
CDV:
So they took your shoes and left you barefoot for a certain period of time, until you got the boots?
AK:
Yes, yes.
CDV:
All this in the Questura.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
In this time, they never told you about the arrival of a lawyer for you, a public defender [avvocato d'ufficio] appointed for you -- do you know what an "avvocato d'ufficio" is?
AK:
Well, now I know, but at that time I didn't. And I don't remember ever meeting a lawyer.
CDV:
They never appointed a public defender for you? They never told you?
AK:
No. If they did, I didn't understand it.
CDV:
So, accepting this, at a certain point you wrote your memorandum, and then you were brought to prison.
AK:
Yes.
Thank you to Sallyoo from the PerugiaMurderfile.org community for translating the remainder of Amanda Knox's testimony, pages 144 to 173. Italics represent words spoken in English in court and (bracketed italics are translator's notes)
CDV:
I'm speaking about the first memoriale. I want to get to this memoriale and then finish, President. However, on this subject, given that it has been examined in court, I want a re-reading of four parts of it which seem to me to be [145] relevant. The first question I must pose to you is, when you say, and here I quote from the translation made .. a translation which isn't even sworn, and which has been accepted as evidence, though it is neither sworn, nor dated, nor signed and we don't know who wrote it. One reads the phrase mentioned more than once today: “And I confirm the declarations made”. You, who now understand Italian, how would you translate “confirm” into English.
AK:
Confirm, I recognize.
GCM:
Well look, we have an interpreter present, we can translate this expression.
CDV:
We'll ask the interpreter. “Confirm”, how does it translate? “I confirm”.
INT:
I confirm.
CDV:
What?
INT:
Confirm, to confirm.
CDV:
Can I show you...
GCM:
In Italian this.
INT:
No he asked me in English.
GCM:
If the translation says this in Italian, because otherwise … in Italian it's as if this expression used by …
INT:
I confirm, I recognise.
GCM:
Continue, avvocato.
CDV:
And in English?
AK:
Confirm.
CDV:
Confirm?
AK:
Yes. [146]
CDV:
Can I show you the photocopy of the text in English, that part where you make reference to this and ask you if it is yours and then ask you to read exactly what is written in English?
AK:
Okay.
CDV:
It's the part underlined. The Memorial of November 6.
IVTO:
What page?
GCM:
The page number, avvocato so at least we can ...
IVTO:
And the line number please, President.
CDV:
The document in English is of four pages, I'm on the third page, the fourteenth line from the bottom, from the last bit where one reads “I stand”. I want to ask if it was …
AK:
Okay, it's written “'and I stand by my statements'”.
CDV:
Okay, thankyou.
MC:
And this means?
GCM:
Yes, if the interpreter.....Excuse me please, if the interpreter can give us...
INT:
“I stand by my statements”.
GM:
“I stand by my statements”?
GCM:
Yes. Continue avvocato.
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
Look, please, it's the third page, avvocato. The avvocato (Dalla Vedova) has told us it is the third page, fourteenth line, counting from the bottom, the end. [147]
GM:
Very well, very well. “I stand by my statements”.
GCM:
Continue, avvocato.
CDV:
Then, still talking about this document, looking at the translation, on the first page of the translation, second paragraph, what you remember about the message … so we're on the morning of November 6, and you say “Now I remember also that I replied to him with the message”.
AK:
Yes.
CDV:
So you hadn't in fact remembered that you had replied to Patrick before this point?
AK:
When I was in the questura I didn't remember.
CDV:
Fine. Still considering the character of this memorandum, which has been examined many times, and regarding the reason why you wrote it, I want to read the translation and the start.
GCM:
Ask your question.
CDV:
This is my question. Do you remember having written this in the memorandum “all this is very strange, I know, but truly what has happened is as confusing to me as it is to anybody else”? Do you recall writing something like this?
AK:
In English, yes.
CDV:
And then, that you, still in reference to this, .. say “I want to make it clear...” [148]
IVTO:
President, excuse me, but we can't read a document which is already in evidence . So, if there are questions …
GCM:
Well we can put before the accused if we recognise …
IVTO:
No, because then it could be read in court (in discussione) is what I mean.
GCM:
… all the content of the document that otherwise would introduce a procedure for whichever document one read in its entirety, but if we recognise this one …
CDV:
President, I'm familiar with this procedure. This document has been widely read by colleagues yesterday and today.
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
Excuse me please. To allow relevant questions about this. Here we ask only to recognise this as having been provided by the defendant.
CDV:
Very well.
GCM:
So if you have a question, go ahead.
CDV:
The question concerns the nature of the document. When you wrote “I want to make it clear that I have serious doubts about the truth of my statements, because I was put under the pressure of stress, shock, and because I was exhausted, and also I had been told that I would be arrested …”.
IVTO:
(inaudible) [149]
GCM:
Excuse me, please, let us finish and then we shall see if there is opposition. Your question, avvocato.
CDV:
The question is about the character of this statement.
GCM:
Which is?
CDV:
Why did you make this statement? Why did you write “Not only was I told that I would be arrested, imprisoned for thirty years, but I was also hit on the head when I couldn't correctly recall a fact”? Why did you feel obliged to write? (Perché l'hai voluto per forza scrivere)
AK:
Because it was important to me …
GCM:
This feeling of obligation, why did you write it, why did you want to write it?
CDV:
I'll withdraw “obliged”.
GCM:
I don't know, look …
CDV:
My correction, “obliged” I eliminate.
GCM:
Thankyou, why did you wish to write?
AK:
For me it was important to tell the truth about the situation, it wasn't that I had gone into the questura to say these things voluntarily, it was against my will, that then … that I was really confused, there was doubt, there was confusion, the fact that I didn't … didn't understand how I found myself in this situation, then the fact that I wanted to tell the truth, that I … the situation, because …
CDV:
But at this time you had clearer ideas? [150]
AK:
Yes I said “hit”, which means hit (punched).
CDV:
No, you had clearer ideas compared with other times? When you wrote, you felt less confused?
AK:
Yes, I felt less confused.
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
Please. The defence has asked you, when you wrote, if you found yourself in a calm situation, composed, attentive, alert basically?
AK:
I did this precisely to calm myself.
CDV:
So, when you say: “I have clearer ideas than before, but I'm still lacking some details and I know this isn't helpful to me”, what did you mean exactly? That you felt more sure at that moment about what had happened?
AK:
I felt that the truth of the situation wasn't that which had happened in the questura. So I felt it necessary to write these things because for me that was the truth.
CDV:
Good, thank you, I have no other questions.
GCM:
There are some small questions which perhaps haven't been followed up very clearly, mainly because they may have escaped or been gathered together and lost during the adjournments.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
If you are still willing to answer questions.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
Had Meredith ever been to Sollecito's house? [151]
AK:
No.
GCM:
She had never been there. Did you ever carry kitchen utensils from the house in via della Pergola to the house of Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
No.
GCM:
When was, on the evening of Nov 1, the last time you used your cellphone, for the message to Patrick or did you have another call? Before turning it off, you have already told us that you turned it off.
AK:
I know that there was that call to Patrick and then nothing.
GCM:
And then you immediately turned it off.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
When you turned it off, did you tell Raffaele Sollecito that you were turning it off?
AK:
I told him that I didn't need to go to work. I don't know if I told him I was turning the phone off.
GCM:
And did Raffaele Sollecito do the same thing? Did he also turn off his phone?
AK:
I didn't look if he had turned his phone off or not.
GCM:
You turned your phone off at about eight thirty, roughly.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
20.30 in the evening. After 20.30, did you hear Raffaele Sollecito's phone, or the house phone in Corso Garibaldi ring?
AK:
I don't remember. [152]
GCM:
Did you see Raffaele Sollecito sending messages using his cellphone?
AK:
Sometimes he was, for example, at the desk or somesuch, but I don't remember anything in particular. I don't think so.
GCM:
On the morning of Nov 2 what time did you get up. When did you wake?
AK:
Well, usually I wake early, but then I went back to sleep. So I know I woke early, but then I went back to sleep.
GCM:
Early if one can say...
AK:
It was still dark, at least in his room, therefore … I woke up but then I went back to sleep. Then I think I got up at about ten thirty.
GCM:
As soon as you got up, did you turn on your cellphone?
AK:
I don't remember.
GCM:
When you awoke, was Raffaele Sollecito still asleep?
AK:
Yes, I told him I wanted to go to my house but he was still a bit asleep, in fact I watched him for a few moments.
GCM:
So he was still asleep?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
At ten o'clock Raffaele Sollecito was still asleep?
AK:
Yes. [153]
GCM:
Do you know at what time Raffaele Sollecito turned on his cellphone? Rather, you don't know if he had turned it off. The first time that this cellphone showed signs of life, let's put it that way, did you hear it, or see it being used?
AK:
I don't remember.
GCM:
You have no memory of this?
AK:
No, I don't …
GCM:
I'd also like to ask you, you watched the film “The Fabulous World of Amelie” using Raffaele Sollecito's computer, that's so?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
When did you finish watching this film?
AK:
Before supper, but I didn't look at the clock. However we'd finished this and then we thought about making supper.
GCM:
So, the film finished, and you made supper.
AK:
Yes, we thought “What shall we do now? Ah, we'll make supper”.
GCM:
This girl Popovic, when did she come?
AK:
First she...well, she came before we'd watched the film and then when we were eating or perhaps when we were preparing supper.
GCM:
I'd also like to ask you, once you had finished watching “The Fabulous World of Amelie”, did you turn off the computer, did you put it away? If you know.
AK:
I didn't use the computer contoller, thus ...[153]
GCM:
Where was the computer?
AK:
It was....well, we watched on his bed and he had put the computer on a …
GCM:
So in a different room from the one in which you had prepared and eaten supper? Is that right?
AK:
Yes, yes, yes.
GCM:
While you were preparing supper, was Raffaele Sollecito with you?
AK:
Yes, yes, we were preparing it together.
GCM:
Do you know if afterwards, after supper, Raffaele Sollecito went back to using his computer?
AK:
I know he had put it on the desk, but I don't know if he used the computer.
GCM:
When it was put on the desk, where were you?
AK:
I was on the bed reading a book.
GCM:
And the computer was on the desk?
AK:
Yes, he'd put it back.
GCM:
A portable computer?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Open, closed?
AK:
I think it was open but I don't … usually it was open, therefore …
GCM:
Turned on turned off? If it was open you'd see light.
AK:
I don't remember. [155]
GCM:
Excuse me, but you were in the bed, Raffaele Sollecito was at the desk, you were looking at a book what was Raffaele Sollecito doing at the desk?
AK:
He was rolling a joint and we were talking.
GCM:
What time did you smoke this joint?
AK:
It was after supper. We had eaten very late, perhaps around 11.30, and then we made love and then we went to sleep.
GCM:
Did you smoke the joint before, during, or after this moment of intimacy?
AK:
What?
GCM:
The joint, when did this take place?
AK:
After supper, after the water leak.
GCM:
Before you had got together, you and Raffaele Sollecito, is that right?
AK:
Yes, what happened? He was very annoyed by the fact that this thing … this tube … the water came out of this tube. He said: “Come on, we'll put ...” perhaps a towel, but then no, then he said: “Oh, let's roll a joint”, like that.
GCM:
I'd also like to ask you, when had you planned to go to Gubbio? At what time?
AK:
When …
GCM:
You have said that you meant to go to Gubbio the day after, at what time had you planned to leave?
AK:
Only for a day, we'd thought of …
GCM:
Yes, but in the morning, after lunch? [156]
AK:
When we woke up, we'd go there and usually …
GCM:
Go where?
AK:
To Gubbio.
GCM:
As soon as you woke up you would have gone to Gubbio.
AK:
Yes, it was very relaxed this …
GCM:
How would you have gone there?
AK:
He has a car.
GCM:
And so you would have left for Gubbio as soon as you had woken up, is that right?
AK:
Yes, get ready, then leave …
GCM:
However, you have said that as soon as you woke up you went to the house in via della Pergola.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
You didn't leave immediately for Gubbio why this change of plan?
AK:
It wasn't really a change of plan, he was still asleep, so I thought I'd take a shower before leaving because I also wanted to change my clothes.
GCM:
Sorry, why did you go back to via della Pergola to take a shower and you have told us, answering a question, I don't know if it was yesterday or this morning, that you had taken a shower in the evening at Corso Garibaldi in Raffaele Sollecito's house? Why on earth didn't you do the same thing again, especially since you were planning to go to Gubbio?
AK:
Because first of all I wanted to change my clothes, which were at my house, then I really didn't like Raffaele's shower, because you had to clean the whole bathroom after taking [156] a shower, because the shower leaked. Therefore I preferred my own shower.
GCM:
I am aware that in the e-mail which you sent to your friends you talk of Raffaele Sollecito washing your hair, brushing it, drying it. On the other hand, on this occasion this shower and hair washing … you go to … via della Pergola, to your house in via della Pergola, you take the shower in the small bathroom and then the hairdryer you find in the other bathroom.
AK:
In the big bathroom.
GCM:
And then why wash your hair again? That is, in via della Pergola there is this difficulty, two difficulties, you do it alone and you do it using another bathroom, another hairdryer from there. And then why do you re-wash your hair which was washed the evening …
AK:
I'm used to washing my hair every day, every time I go …
GCM:
And why not do this at Raffaele Sollecito's house?
AK:
Because I don't … because I did …
GCM:
No, why didn't you wash your hair, and let Raffaele Sollecito dry it for you rather than doing it yourself alone the next day?
AK:
He hasn't got the equipment for doing hair, so … I mean a hairdryer for example.
GCM:
So, when you went to via della Pergola, it was a bit after 10 o'clock, November, but it's light, what did you see of the outside of the house? Before you went inside? [158]
AK:
I saw … the thing which struck me was the fact that the door was open.
GCM:
So the door was clearly open?
AK:
Yes it was wide open.
GCM:
Wide open then, the door.
AK:
Yes, it seemed that inside …
GCM:
Apart from this door, yes, this is clear, did you also see how the window of Romanelli looked ...
AK:
I didn't look.
GCM:
… anything which would have attracted your attention?
AK:
This didn't attract my attention, I didn't look.
GCM:
The shutters how were they positioned, closed, firmly closed, open?
AK:
They were, I think...I really didn't look. Though, when I returned with Raffaele and we looked together, they were a bit like this (presumably she gestures) not completely closed, but they weren't wide open.
GCM:
You looked at this, or you didn't look?
AK:
I think they were a bit like this.
GCM:
A bit like how?
AK:
This is the window, I think, they were a bit like this.
GCM:
That is the two parts were touching...the shutters are in two parts aren't they?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
So the two shutters were touching? Though not aligned, they looked closed together, at least viewed from the outside? [158]
AK:
From the outside?
GCM:
Yes.
AK:
I didn't see the broken glass from the outside.
GCM:
No, no, we are talking about the shutters. How did these shutters look to you before you had entered the house?
AK:
As I remember, they were … If these are the windows from inside and these are the windows … so these from outside, they were a bit … sorry, like this.
GCM:
So the two parts of the shutters formed an angle, what is it?
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
One was closed and the other one open?
AK:
Yes, a bit. Well, one was more closed than the other.
GCM:
One was a bit more closed than the other. Now, what sort of heating do you have in via della Pergola?
AK:
Heating?
GCM:
Yes.
AK:
Not much I remember my room was often cold, so I had a rug on the floor. Honestly I haven't turned on any form of heating in my …
GCM:
When you arrived at ten o'clock, you didn't turn on any heating?
AK:
I have never …
GCM:
So, you found the heating off that morning?
AK:
I didn't look at any type of heating. [160]
GCM:
Was the house warm when you entered?
AK:
No, no it was …
GCM:
It was cold.
AK:
Yes, that's true.
GCM:
The door was wide open, it was cold.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Is there any heating in the bathroom?
AK:
In the bathroom?
GCM:
Yes.
AK:
I've never used any heating in the bathroom, so …
GCM:
It was cold in the bathroom then.
AK:
Yes, fairly.
GCM:
Was Raffaele's house warm? What about the bathroom, was it heated?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Now, when you took the shower did you use other sanitaryware? I think you have already said that you didn't use the bidet on that occasion.
AK:
On that occasion no.
GCM:
When was the last time you used the bidet in the small bathroom, the one where you took the shower?
AK:
Well, the last time I used the bidet …
GCM:
If you remember. Otherwise usually you take a shower so you don't need to ... [161]
AK:
I know that that time I didn't use the bidet and so the last time I used the bidet must have been if not the day before, then the day before that.
GCM:
So that day anyway you didn't use it, but the day before or an earlier day.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Did you use the bathroom light switch? Did you turn it on? Did you press it on, and then press it off? Did you put the light on in the bathroom?
AK:
Ah, the light?
GCM:
Yes.
AK:
I don't remember if I turned it on or not.
GCM:
You don't remember. Well, another thing I'd like to ask you, you have said that you noticed that there had been a theft, a broken window etcetera.
AK:
Well I thought so, yes.
GCM:
You went into your room to see if anything was missing and you were reassured, your computer was there.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
When you made this check, didn't you notice that your desk lamp was missing?
AK:
I didn't look for the lamp.
GCM:
But were you looking for something special on this occasion?
AK:
I looked to see if the computer was there.
GCM:
You looked only to see if the computer was there or not. [162]
AK:
Yes, because the computer was the most important thing for me.
GCM:
Now, I also want to ask you, when you called Romanelli, this is November 2 …
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
… for the first time …
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
… where were you?
AK:
Okay, the first time …
GCM:
Romanelli says that she received this call at about ten past twelve (12.10).
AK:
Okay, I think that the first time I called her I was at Raffaele's house. Then later …
GCM:
Were you at Raffaele's house?
AK:
Yes, I think I was …
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
What?
AK:
Yes, I had returned to Raffaele's house, I asked him what I should do and he said ring my flatmates. So I called her when I was in Raffaele's apartment. But then I think she called me again while we were walking to the house, my house.
GCM:
So, you called Romanelli when you were at Raffaele's house?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
That's how it was?
AK:
Yes. [163]
GCM:
The first call was mde from Raffele's house.
AK:
From Raffaele's, yes.
GCM:
I put it to you that, at least from Romanelli's statements, it happened differently.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
“She told me that she had taken a shower, that it seemed to her that there was blood, and that she was going to Raffaele's”.
AK:
Ah, Okay, so it was while I was walking to Raffaele's.
GCM:
So you weren't at Raffaele's.
AK:
I had thought that the first …
GCM:
When you called Romnelli where were you, at Raffaele's or …
AK:
I thought I was with Raffaele, so I don't …
GCM:
Because you'd gone then from … this is a detail which … all right, sometimes memory isn't helpful, on the contrary it might recall things which instead... However, this is a special situation, you had taken a shower, noticed the presence of blood …
AK:
Mmm.
GCM:
… in fact more than one bloody mark, no?
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
On the bathmat, on the basin, no?
AK:
Okay. [164]
GCM:
You tried to explain the mark on the basin, but you couldn't confirm it because this blood stain, let's say, was fairly obvious. So it struck you a bit. What was the first thing that you did, after you had dressed? Did you phone your mother or do something else? Or did you return to Raffaele's house?
AK:
As I remember, I went to Raffaele's house thinking about these things to tell him. This is what I remember now, but I don't remember if I phoned first or not, but as I recall I wanted to go to Raffaele's to ask him what he thought.
GCM:
Do you remember at what time … well, when 112 was called … do you remember the call to 112?
AK:
I know Raffaele called.
GCM:
112 is the police number, the carabinieri, anyway 112 is what …
AK:
I didn't know that number.
GCM:
The police, or the carabinieri, it doesn't matter, but you ring 112 to call the police force.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
Where were you?
AK:
We were at my house.
GCM:
And had the postal police already arrived?
AK:
No.
GCM:
The postal police had not yet arrived? [165]
AK:
What happened is that we were … he had called the police. While he was talking to them we were there and then we went out of the house and immediately the police arrived, the two of them together.
GCM:
Now, I'd also like to ask you, it has emerged that, when they searched Raffaele Sollecito's house, perhaps on November 6, but I don't want to err, there was strong smell of bleach. We also have the testimony of the lady who cleaned the apartment of Raffaele Sollecito, who says that bleach was never used.
AK:
I never used bleach in Raffaele's house.
GCM:
Did you ever see Raffaele use it?
AK:
No.
GCM:
How do you explain the presence of the smell, which is a smell …
AK:
I have never smelled bleach in Raffaele's house.
GCM:
Listen, on the morning of November 2 do you remember what you were wearing, particularly if you had …
AK:
On the seconf of November?
GCM:
Yes. … a grey overcoat?
AK:
Well …
GCM:
We have already spoken of a red overcoat, you have said you didn't have a red coat. Did you have a grey coat?
AK:
Yes, I have one. [166]
GCM:
And were you wearing it on the morning of Novemer 2?
AK:
I have a jacket (felpa) which is grey with stripes ... black.
GCM:
I have read in a statement about a grey coat (capotto).
AK:
(to interpreter) What is a “capotto”?
INT:
A coat.
AK:
I have one fel …. well, the jackets which I have, I have one for trekking which is black, and one which is green. But I used the green one. I don't know about a coat, I have a grey felpa striped with black, but a real coat I don't have.
GCM:
Listen, were you the last to leave the house at 7 via della Pergola on November 1, or, when you left was there still anybody else?
AK:
When they sent us out of the …
GCM:
No, no, November 1, we are on November 1.
AK:
Ah, yes, okay, I see.
GCM:
The first of November.
AK:
Meredith had gone out and then Raffaele and I were left by ourselves and then, yes, when I left, we were alone in the house, so I closed the door and that's it.
GCM:
So there was nobody else in the house?
AK:
No.
GCM:
You were the last one to leave the house?
AK:
At least when I left I was the last one.
GCM:
November 1. You locked the door of the house? [167]
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Earlier you were reminded of the statement of Kokomani and you said about it: “None of that is true”. We have also heard another statement, from Curatolo, I don't know if you remember this gentleman who came, with a long white beard. Do you remember?
AK:
No - who is he?
GCM:
Well he's a rather noticeable gentleman.
AK:
Ah, that homeless one?
GCM:
Yes, the clochard. He says he's usually to be found in the piazza in front of the University for Foreigners. You'll remember, he said that he had seen both you and Raffaele Sollecito on the evening of November 1 there at the basketball court.
AK:
Also that can't be possible because we were at Raffaele's apartment.
GCM:
So this isn't possible, it isn't true.
AK:
It isn't true. Perhaps he was mistaken.
GCM:
How many times had you seen Rudy Guede?
AK:
Well, there was the time in the downstairs flat, there was a time I think, at my workplace and then I'd seen him playing basketball, that's about it.
GCM:
How many times did you see him at your house?
AK:
Only that once when he was in the downstairs flat with the boys.
GCM:
Watching the Formula 1, that Formula 1 race? On that occasion or on another occasion? [168]
AK:
No, this was a party, it was later in the day. I don't remember if he was there watching the Formula 1 or not.
GCM:
Look, there is also the witness Fabio Astolto, who has told us about the fourth...no the second (of November) in the evening, yes, he tells us he was with you. He says that he went with you to have your fingerprints taken and he says that you lifted up your hands and struck your head, hitting your own head. You did this while they were taking your fingerprints. Look, if you remember this episode. I may not have described the episode very precisely unfortunately but it's more or less.
AK:
While I was waiting to do …
GCM:
Why on earth would you give … do you remember if it's true?
AK:
Yes, I did this because at that moment I didn't yet know how I felt, I realy felt very, very ... really shocked by the situation, so I did a bit like this, pacing the floor.
GCM:
Then, in a recording made on November 4 while you and Raffaele Sollecito were in the questura, at a certain point, after they had shown you the knives, in this recording we hear the name Patrick and also the name like (Shaki) and of the owner of Le Chic. Look, how come you spoke on November 4 … here we are in a different situation from that which we have dwelt on from November 5 and 6 recalling your questioning and voluntary statements. We are on November 4, and you and Raffaele were talking, can you explain. [169]
AK:
Well, I remember we talked about Shaki but I don't remember about Patrick.
GCM:
Having talked about Patrick.
AK:
Yes, no.
GCM:
Did you know what basis there was for Raffaele Sollecito changing his story? Did they tell you? Was there a change of story, did they tell you “Look Raffaele Sollecito is saying something else”, did you get this news …
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
… and what was the basis?
AK:
When they were questioning me, there were people coming in and talking amongst themselves and then a policewoman said to me: “Raffaele has changed he has said you went out”. That's what I understood.
GCM:
In the earlier recording Raffaele says: “What do you think, Amanda, that I don't want to be here?”. This must be the recording made at seven o'clock (19.00) on Sunday November 4 2007, after Amanda returned to the questura.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
“It continues”, etcetera, “regarding Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito”. Raffaele: “What do you think, Amanda, that I don't want to be here? I want it all to be finished, because I want to know who is … the friends of his, because he doesn't have many friends. Now it's like this, it's interesting. In fact he doesn't have any friends now”. Who is this “he” do you remember? [170]
AK:
Honestly I don't remember.
GCM:
And then, in this context, you talk about Shaki.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
Why?
AK:
I remember we were talking about him because …
GCM:
But this “him”, who is it, Shaki?
AK:
Yes we were talking about Shaki, but I don't remember the exact words, the exact words.
GCM:
Good, only on this last question, if there are further questions they may be put. Thankyou.
GM:
Listen, do you remember on the evening of November 2 in the questura, talking about what had happened, you exclaimed: “Damned bastards”.
AK:
What?
IVTO:
(inaudible)
GCM:
However only on the most recent questions, look, those which have formed part … continue.
GM:
Yes. There was the question about Filomena's room, I believe no? Of Romanelli?
GCM:
Yes.
GM:
Look, do you remember if the shutters … you told us how the shutters were, do you remember if one of these shutters or both of them were slightly damaged and wouldn't close?
AK:
I recall that Filomena said that one didn't work, but it's not as if I often used this window. [171]
GM:
You didn't know this.
AK:
Filomena had told me that one didn't close well.
GM:
Do you remember if when you arrived, this question follows from one posed by the President, you saw any marks on the wall below Romanelli's window?
AK:
Marks on the wall?
GM:
Marks, marks from something of …
AK:
I hadn't …
GM:
As if somebody had clambered up it.
AK:
I didn't notice.
GCM:
The external appearance of the house has been the subject of a question. Continue.
GM:
Listen, you have said … again I'm referring to a question posed by the President, who asked you where you were when you called on your cellphone … when you called Filomena, etcetera. When you went to the house in via della Pergola and noticed the blood did you have your phone with you?
AK:
I had it with me, I always carried it in my bag.
GM:
In your bag. Why didn't you call Raffaele immediately, telling him about it rather than returning to his house?
CDV:
This wasn't part of a question, we seem to be reopening the case, returning to matters already examined.
GM:
On the cellphone calls ... [172]
GCM:
The question is not allowed. Continue.
GM:
Not allowed?
GCM:
Yes.
GM:
Listen how long does it take to get from Sollecito's house to via della Pergola?
AK:
On foot …
CDV:
This doesn't seem to be a matter examined by you, President.
GCM:
Yes, please only matters which have been the subject of the last questions.
GM:
This question about turning on the bathroom light has been made.
GCM:
Yes, certainly.
GM:
Do you usually turn on the small bathroom light during daylight when you go in?
AK:
During the day?
GM:
You don't remember if you turned it on that morning, do you usually turn it on if it is daylight?
AK:
It depended, during the day I think there was enough light, because the corridor is well lit but …
GM:
So normally you wouldn't turn on the light?
AK:
I don't think so, no.
GM:
You don't believe. Listen, at your house in Seattle …
IVTO:
(inaudible) [173]
GCM:
Excuse me, please.
GM:
… is there a bidet? This is a question which …
GCM:
Yes, continue.
GM:
Is there a bidet in your house in Seattle?
AK:
No.
GM:
I haven't any further questions resulting from the President's questions.
GCM:
Good. If there are no further questions we can close this session. (incombente). Stand down.
There are no further questions: the defendant can be stood down.